Supporting Civil Rights for Atheists and the Separation of Church and State
God Said It, I Believe It, That Settles It...
A Statement That Is The Epitome Of Ignorance
Whenever I hear a believer state, in one fashion or another, “God said it, I believe it, that settles it,” I know that there is an impending breakdown in the likelihood that a reasonable, rational, intelligent and diplomatic conversation is going to take place. Those oh-so non-judgmental patrons of Christianity, Islam and Judaism who believe that their god has given strict, unbending, draconian, bronze-age commands on certain issues land them squarely on the flat, worn-out faces of the brick-walls we know as ignorance and intolerance. Throw in a dose of hatred and bigotry, for good measure.
Many times these beliefs, indoctrinations and superstitions end up with horrific results against humanity, either directly or indirectly. I’ve got permanent palm prints on my face from my own hands as a result of being told by some of these kooks that, under no uncertain terms, they fervently believe that:
- Homosexuals should be killed
- Cross-dressers should be killed
- Adulterers should be killed
- Members of other religions should be killed
- Members of no religions should be killed
- Children should be beaten with sticks
- Television is the gateway to hell
- The Internet is the gateway to hell
- The movies are the gateway to hell
- Women are the gateway to hell
- Dead babies will burn in hell forever
- Mentally ill people will burn in hell forever
- People who drink alcohol will burn in hell forever
- People who drink coffee or tea will burn in hell forever
- Eating certain foods will send you to burn in hell forever
- Everyone “else” will burn in hell forever
- A blood transfusion will get you and your soul annihilated
- Women should not be allowed to own property
- Women should not be allowed to vote
- Women should stay at home and have babies
- Women should always be submissive to their husbands
- A husband has the right to beat his wife
- A husband has the right to rape his wife
- A husband has the right to have more than one wife
- A husband has the right to a pre-pubescent wife
- Pedophilia s the fault of atheists and secularists
- Obama is the Anti-Christ and should be destroyed
- The United States was founded as a Christian Nation
- The <insert holy book> is the only true word of god
- The earth is 6000 years old, Satan made it look older
- The earth is 6000 years old, God made it look older
- Evolution was invented by Satan, evolutionists worship him
- Members of other religions are insane and deluded
- Members of no religion are insane and deluded
- There is no such thing as mental illnesses; it is just the results of living in sin
- Only god and faith can be trusted for healing (thousands of children die each year as a result)
- The earth is really flat (yes, these people still exist)
- Black people are cursed by god to forever be servants and slaves
- Some people should be burned alive
- Some people should be tortured, then burned alive
- If their god tells them to kill strangers, they are compelled to obey
- If their god tells them to kill their friends, they are compelled to obey
- If their god tells them to kill their family, they are compelled to obey
- If their god tells them to kill someone for drawing a harmless cartoon, they are compelled to obey
- If their god tells them to kill themselves in the process, they are compelled to obey
I think you get my drift. Now, mind you, there are not very many few people who hold all of these to be commands from their god, as they represent a few different aspects of all the Abrahamic religions. However, while holding any one of these beliefs signifies a possible breakdown of the ability for rational thought, there are some Judeo-Christian-Islamic sects and cults that can (and do) claim most of these as part of their dogma. Some of them are considered mainstream.
Church And State...
Many of the people who hold a significant amount of these beliefs currently occupy seats in the United States Senate and House of Representatives as well as key White House cabinet positions. A couple have recently held the office of the President. Worse yet, there are hundreds and thousands who hold local offices, are teaching in our public schools, are responsible for the careers of subordinates and many walk around with guns and badges. The number of people in our military who hold many of these beliefs is simply frightening, because they hold positions all the way up to the rank of General.
It is toward these people that many of us non-theists draw the line of diplomacy and tolerance, and where we insist on pointing a finger in the direction it belongs. The unwillingness of the extreme right wing Christian/Muslim/Jew to budge from these horrific beliefs, no matter how many times they have been proved utterly and incontrovertibly wrong, is reason enough for us to be decidedly undiplomatic in our discourses.
Due Dilligence...
I have received a fair share of admonishments from fellow unbelievers about my polemic attitude toward these nut jobs. Some of them still believe that it does more damage than good to hold the positions that I do, and that my attitude does not engender in these whackos a desire and willingness for them to listen to our side of the discussion. Well, they are right. However, what they fail to understand is that I really don't care.
When it comes to these people, I see no other way to communicate with them. I interact with perfectly normal believers all day long. My family consists of Christians, Muslims, Jews, Deists and even a Buddhist or two, and I’ve got news for my fellow “diplomacy only” minded atheists; most of them are just as equally fed up with these wingnuts as we are.
There is no diplomacy with these individuals, and very often their reaction to just being in the presence of an atheist warrants our undiplomatic, intolerant finger-pointing. Besides, I am not out to win a Nobel Peace prize, nor am I out to make friends with anyone who holds the beliefs I listed above as truth. I don’t give one, single iota of credibility to their beliefs and I will continue to make it my mission in life to make it as difficult as I possibly can for them to be perceived as anywhere near resembling normal people.
They are dangerous, ignorant, uneducated, hate-filled, narrow-minded, bigoted, intolerant, self-righteous fools that have been brainwashed into believing that committing some of the most horrific acts of inhumanity toward their fellow men, women and children are the want, will, desire and command the sick, twisted, perverted, megalomaniac of a deity that they have turned their god into.
A huge other "think" needs to be foisted upon anyone who is under the impression that these whackos deserve to be treated diplomatically or with any tolerance for these toxic beliefs. Likewise to anyone who thinks that these individual's points of view even deserve to be included as equal in any sense of the word with rational, reasonable discourse.
---------------
Al Stefanelli - Georgia State Director, American Atheists, Inc.
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Comments
I enjoyed this rant very much. You are absolutely right: there is NO chance of dialogue with faith-heads who are more than a little unhinged, sad and lost to the point that their supernatural enthusiasms zip right by "crazy-a$$" and race right past "disturbing" and lurch their way, heaving and sweating and gasping from the armpits of delusion straight into "Oh. My. Science. What the hell is wrong with you people?" Those of us who were raised in a cult UNDERSTAND the sneering vileness of the literal mind ...Hence, the communication problem. It is extremely difficult to crack the fanatic's frozen ideological sea, especially when they tell you that there is NO such thing as "religious fanaticism" only varying degrees of FAITH, the ultimate virtue!!!
We must respect the other
We must respect the other fellow’s religion, but only in the sense and to the extent that we respect his theory that his wife is beautiful and his children smart. H.L. Mencken
Quote from Raymond: "A government that is supposed to represent a diverse group of people of different faiths ..."
That's a nice theory, but the reality is that government represents those in power in the government. The nice thing about a church is, if I don't want to it, I don't have to have it (at least in the US). You really don't get that option with government. You do what they say, or you pay the consequences, up to and including death.
Now for me, I don't see the problem being the church, but the state. Sure, the church is interested in manipulating the state for its own interests, but so is every other special interest in the country. So while I'm all for separating the church from the state, I'm still not interested in giving some other special interest control of the state, including my own special interests.
It's a bit like blaming the banks of a river for a flood, rather than the river itself. Seems to me that the problems between the church and the state are with the state, not the church.
You really aren't making all that much sense. What are you trying to say? it sure as heck doesn't seem to have anything to do with the separation of Church and State.
As for special interests, at least those that are secular in nature can be argued against on their merits or lack thereof. Stick Jesus on one of them and suddenly it cannot be scrutinized and that's a major problem.
Quote from CPT_BRUMBL3Z: "You really aren’t making all that much sense."
It is the state that has the real power. The church can do nothing to enforce anything without the state.
Separation of church and state. Separation of education and state. Separation of medicine and state. If the state controls it, then the state can be manipulated by some special interest to force changes on people who don't want it, especially minorities.
Atheists are a minority and probably will be for some time. To think that the religious majority is not going to manipulate the state in their own interest is simply naive.
Ceremonial deism, intelligent design, banning abortion, all issues today because of religious influence IN GOVERNMENT. Trying to get government to be on 'our side' is a waste of time. The fight should be to get the government out of these systems completely.
Quote from geoih: "Separation of church and state. Separation of education and state. Separation of medicine and state."
One's religion is private and personal and thus should be separate from state so all can practice what they believe (or don't believe) on their own.
The state supplies education through public schools and has to monitor what children are being taught and how well they are learning in order to guarantee that they will be competent adults - what one is taught also influences how people perceive the world so this is also a method of manipulating/influencing future generations. I'd like future generations to be required to learn basic math, science, and english and be at least somewhat competent in them.
Medicine must me monitored by the State because of fake and sometimes potentially dangerous and lethal drugs as well as "quack doctors". I would like to be treated by a government licensed doctor whose passed a test that shows that he is at least somewhat competent than be treated by some guy off the street.
Quote from geoih: "Atheists are a minority and probably will be for some time. To think that the religious majority is not going to manipulate the state in their own interest is simply naive"
Yes, the majority often gets their way. Yes, atheists are a minority. Yes, the religious majority will manipulate the state for their own interests; However, we do not live in a strictly majority rule society. We live in a country where the majority will often gets its way BUT the government also abides by the constitution and bill of rights which guarantee and protect the rights of minority groups.
Quote from geoih: Trying to get government to be on ‘our side’ is a waste of time. The fight should be to get the government out of these systems completely.
I agree. I don't care about getting the government on my side per se. I want the government to be unbiased and uninfluenced by special interests. I want it to be able to look between all the options and pick the best one and not the one that the church, wall street, labor unions, etc are bribing or threatening them to pick. This is unrealistic but it's still something to work towards.
Quote from geoih: "If the state controls it, then the state can be manipulated by some special interest to force changes on people who don’t want it, especially minorities."
The state can be manipulated by special interest group no matter what they control really.What sort of things do you think the Government/state should have control of? I'm probably wrong, but it kind of sounds like your arguing the government is bad altogether and should be separate from everything. While the government is flawed, its still better than total anarchy with no regulations.
Quote from geoih: "You really don’t get that option with government. You do what they say, or you pay the consequences, up to and including death."
I would agree with you...but we don't live in some third-world country under a dictator. The U.S. constitution and bill of rights protect the rights of minority groups and the freedoms of speech, religion, etc. They also prohibit cruel and unusual punishment. U.S. law thus reserves the death penalty for aggressive rapists and murderers, and even then the death penalty is absent in several states that just imprison murderers and rapists for up to life. Sure if i lived under some dictator and argued with him, I might be killed or imprisoned, but arguing that in the US a person would get killed or imprisoned for simply speaking out against the government is more than a little foolish. Unless your talking about some sort of government conspiracy secret assassination which I would find more believable - though I doubt it could be put into practice all that often. Now if i spoke out against the government and killed people who disagreed with me or started a violent riot or something of that nature then I'd probably be imprisoned and maybe executed.
Quotes from geoih:"That’s a nice theory, but the reality is that government represents those in power in the government. "
You're right. Ideally in theory, the government is supposed to serve and represent the people; however, in practice the government is flawed and needs to be worked on. I have to disagree where you say that the government represents ONLY those in power. Governments that represent only those in power, such as dictatorships, are often overthrown by the people they rule over- though often times they're replaced by another dictatorship.
We live in a representative democracy in which people elect those who they want to represent them in the government. They choose these people because they agree with them more than the other candidates and believe they will make similar choices to their own on different subjects. The people elected represent the will of the people who elected them - hence, "representative democracy".
Quote from geoih: "Sure, the church is interested in manipulating the state for its own interests, but so is every other special interest in the country." and "The nice thing about a church is, if I don’t want to it, I don’t have to have it (at least in the US)."
Yes, special interests manipulate the government. Yes, we should take special interests out of the government. Religion is a type of special interest - hence, take out religion because of this. Its not the ONLY special interest group that should be taken out, but it is one of them. The nice thing about church IS that if we don't want to have it we don't have to have it; however, the church tries to impose its doctrines and beliefs on the government and pass religious oriented laws that force everyone to partake. I do not care if my neighbor or governor is a christian, a hindu, or a jew. I do care if my neighbor harasses me everyday about not bringing my child to church, eating beef, or eating shell fish or if my governor tries to make intelligent design a science to be taught in schools or outlaws abortion on religious grounds.
Quote from geoih: "It’s a bit like blaming the banks of a river for a flood, rather than the river itself.
Seems to me that the problems between the church and the state are with the state, not the church."
I did enjoy this analogy. Though I'd have to say the special interest groups are like rain and the government is the river. The rain influences the river and causing it to overflow, but if you lessen the amount of rain then the river won't flood. Without the river, a lot of rain can still cause a flood, but a river without rain won't cause a flood on its own.
I hope someday you actually sit down and try to understand U.S. law and government instead of spouting nonsense because you feel jaded by it.
Geoith said:"So while I’m all for separating the church from the state, I’m still not interested in giving some other special interest control of the state, including my own special interests."
The difference is atheists just want an even playing field, and the government is supposed to keep the field fair, but has been allowed to become influenced overly by the religious, partly because atheists didn't believe they could muster enough support and even sometimes feared for their lives. We must speak up more, and the government is our ally against a more powerful and devastating evil: religion. Their influence certainly will not go away on its own. We must fight them at every turn, and keep watch so they cannot continue to try to overturn what freedoms we have left.
"there are not very many few people"
Al, very many is redundant.
diligence*
Well said!
Well that part about television being the gateway to perdition is true. Especially the new LED 1080P high definition models with wifi. :-)
"Church And State..."
I find it a little perplexing that people can be so adamantly against one of these institutions, and yet so willing to submit to the other, as if the people running either are somehow especially ethical.
You're right that the people who run the state aren't necessarily more ethical than the people who run the Church and vice-versa. Your also correct that there are religious anarchists and anti-theist loyalists who willingly submit to one while denouncing the other.
However, the idea is not the people running one institution are better than the people running the other. Its that Church and State should be separate and have nothing to do with one another. A government that is supposed to represent a diverse group of people of different faiths and beliefs passing a christian-sect oriented, muslim oriented, or any other type of religious oriented law is hypocritically favoring one group over the others. A government official can be a religious person, but one's religion is a personal private matter and it's doctrines and tenets should not be forced down the throats of everyone through government laws.
This is one rant I wholeheartedly support and agree with. I plan to bookmark it and link to it whenever I'm tempted to go into this exact same explanation for the umpteenth time when some theist/apologist tells me that I'm being dogmatic in my anti-theism (whatever that is intended to mean). I just don't understand how a person with even a semi-functioning brain can believe anything so willfully self-destructive. If only these unthinking uncaring compassion-less schmucks would open their eyes and realize that they are negating the beauty and wonder of the world that IS by believing (and acting upon) such hateful fairytales, the world would definitely be a better place for us and for our descendants.
Sorry, but seeing epitome spelled as "opitomy" in my RSS feed somewhat ruined this for me.
It was an honest typo that was corrected within 10 minutes, with an apology. Sometimes my left-brain's phonetics overpowers my right-brain's 20 year career as a writer. Hope you enjoyed the article, though.
God said it, I believe it, that's it. True for some but not all Al. Let's not forget those Christians who do not necessarily agree with something in scripture (something like a contradiction, or hypocrisy, or which shows God in a bad light) and are staunch in their belief that that is not what God meant as if they have a personal line to God and somehow He translated His true meaning of the scripture to that person. These people are equally exasberating and irrational.
scriptural references for those statements would have been nice , and useful. you made a good case to us, the choir, so to speak, but the religious reading that would just deny it was even in their books.
man isn't god great and fair
man isn't god great and fair and equal!
My first Post
We moved to a small town in the midwest 15 years ago. My wife is moderate Christian, I am agnostic/atheist. We have no problem with people of Faith and in what direction they choose to conduct their lives. We are not in the Bible belt, but we are close to it. There were 14 Churches when we arrived and several more since then.
The rub comes not in the Religious doctrine of these people, which is often shaky at best, but in the social aspect. We are social beings and need support of our peers and leaders we have confidence in following.
As Atheists (under cover) we are welcomed in churches, but it is uncomfortable being blitzed by Professional Religionists to join their party and give money. But it’s what they do.
My main problem with “people of Faith” is that for many, God only exists one day of the week. What happened to the Ten Commandments and a Godly Life the other six?
We are Law-abiding citizens, we give to Charity, we do not lie, cheat, steal or Witness to our children, yet we are quietly ostracized by our neighbors. If we want a peer group, we have to join a Church, or a Faith-based Service Organization (Choose any Service Organization, they are all infected with Religious people living the “Right” way).
The old books were written to describe a socially acceptable way of living, but it has evolved (Many, many years ago) into Political power-broking. Christianity pretty much ended with Constantine’s making it the State Religion, turning it political and many other historical examples exist.
Businesses fail here because owners are not local Churchgoers. “Blessings” abound all over town, all over everything. The governing Church Boards of Directors decide which direction the faith takes and have no problem “Eating their young” to purify its mission, or stall a lawsuit, or gain a donation.
My biggest problem is that once I have seen corruption, blind adherence and power at work, it cannot be un-seen.
The Church is not only the biggest Political influence in this country (that’s the 6-days a week bunch), it is the most social, so if I am not a member of one of its organizations, I am outside. Doesn’t matter who I am or what I do, I am outside.
There are a few Taliban-like religious sects in this country (not necessarily Muslim) and there are many more good and decent people who go to good and decent churches.
The Torah, the Bible and the Koran all contain good advice and tenets for living. Unfortunately, they also contain the ravings of lunatics. They are historical documents dressed in stories and life-lessons, but their truths are illustrated with fictions and should be understood as such.
Religion is a Profession. The University down the street teaches Professional Religionists and when they graduate, they inhabit their inbred communities, much like the Military. They get posted around the country, run into and work with people they know and live a similar lifestyle anywhere in the country. You can’t take this away from them; it is their security, their flock, their way of life, but it is exclusive unless you “ Joinnnnn Ussssss”. They are not weak, they are comfortable, and they have power.
Maybe it’s just the Devil playing God.
"Maye it's just the Devil
"Maye it's just the Devil playing God."
If the Devil was real that is exactly what he would do. What better way to get people to comit evil than to convince people that it was God's comand.
If the Christians beleve in
If the Christians beleve in loving thine enemy, why are they so hell bent on destroying them?
valid point. its actually
valid point. its actually quite stupid if a person thinks about it...
follow the rules you make, and dont be stupid about it.
i enjoy the company those who are christians and are actually nice to me, but all these 'rules' that they have, then dont follow is a bit much. ('Members of other religions should be killed.' obviously im not dead yet. 'If their god tells them to kill someone for drawing a harmless cartoon, they are compelled to obey.' they're retards if they actually do that....) oh, and even if they say it, i highly doubt that the 'earth is really flat'. my point being, if people are going to make rules, they should follow them.
Making statements without
Making statements without citing chaptor and verse causes me to waste time on research.
Wow
I came to this website after watching the story about Ms O'Hare on an episode of "disappeared". I was curious why people were so adamant in about arguing with other people's decisions on life. I believe in God and weather that irks you or not, I do have a few friends/former coworkers that are self professed atheists, but for one, don't make it the center of their lives or every conversation to bring it up every breath they take, they have a life and are actually supportive of me and respect my decision to be Christian just as I choose to be respectful of others and not bible thump you.
A couple of things. First, it
A couple of things. First, it's "whether" and not "weather". "Weather" is a naturally occurring phenomenon that you and your Creationist ilk have the arrogance to believe requires an unseen intelligence flipping the switch on.
Second, you have an awful lot of balls coming on an atheist message board and telling US that what we are talking about is nonsense. I myself have no qualms with you believing in your ridiculously absurd notions about how "it is and will always be" in your primitive brain, but I have a MAJOR issue with any "allegedly" ancient book of antiquated rules and magic tricks and fairy tales attempting to worm its way into the public school systems and filling the impressionable heads of our students with some rigmarole they cooked up to offer a "dissenting viewpoint" on how life was created and trying (and failing miserably I might add) to disprove evolution. When your fairy tale world comes in contact with the REAL world and starts messing around with trying to teach actual APPLIED SCIENCE out of your fictional farce that you have allowed yourself to believe as absolute truth, THEN we have a problem.
Third, as to the "75%" remark...it may interest you to know, that 86% of all statistics are made up, usually on the spot.
So in closing, continue to believe whatever line of bull crap that comes your way from the pulpit or any other delusional source of "information". Until you have the wherewithal and allow your brain to escape its primitive state and begin to question what you believe so strongly without any shred of physical evidence, I'd say that YOU are the one who is "fooling yourself".
I am perturbed, flabbergasted
I am perturbed, flabbergasted, and disturbed by the continuing efforts of misguided (to the point even of committing perjury in ‘Dover, et. al.’) and scripturally incorrect religious people to foist their misconceptions, under the guise of ‘scientific theories’ (creationism, intelligent design, etc.) upon the educational system. In addition to the obvious damage and hindrance to our educational curricula, these attempts are a huge misrepresentation of spiritual reality
Evolution as a scientific discipline must be divorced from the associated parent philosophy “Uniformitarianism” which was in vogue preceding it for reasons which have been discredited since. Evolution is a valid scientific discipline, Uniformitarianism is a disproven philosophy and school of thought. Uniformitarianism has intruded and embedded itself into scientific thought and thus skewed many considerations of cosmology and astral physics from being objective and empirical. Never mind poor old Emmanuel Velikovsky: While the evidence that he was considering was and is relevant and valid, his derivations (due to his great lack in correct scientific methodology) and conclusions were far amiss. He thus did a great disservice to the school of astral catastrophism, and set back its credibility immensely.
The most recent conclusive disproof of Uniformitarianism is this(Coverage to the public was broadcast on a segment of Nova in the last 12 months):
1. In the past decade (survey completion in last 3-4 years) a radar/topological mapping satellite of improved precision surveyed the surface of Venus.
2. Recently formed (even of possibly historical times), non-eroded craters were found in large and significant quantities on the surface of Venus, craters which were not the result of volcanic activity, but of astral catastrophism (meteoric impact).
3. When a renowned (I didn’t take note of his name, due to the following) uniformitarian astrophysicist was interviewed for his opinion he said: “Well, I don’t see how Uniformitarianism can ever possibly explain these craters. But, nevertheless, I’m not willing to give it up”.
4. Gentlemen, this is not objective, logical, scientific methodology. Scientific methodology requires that when the derived conclusions of your theory are found to be false in light of the evidence, then you either discard the theory or, if possible modify the flawed part of it accordingly. To cling to it after it has been disproved is not objective, it is religious domaticism.
“Creationism” per se in all of its multi-farious manifestations, since it invokes to some extent and at some point a supernatural genesis of species, is thus by its very nature incapable of being a scientific discipline. That being the case, “creationism” has absolutely no place whatsoever in any scientific textbook.
Paul
amessageforthehumanrace
you christians are despicable
Any Christians that want to post on our blot should immediately leave. Religion is the worst thing to happen to the world since the Black Plague. All you bible-thumping irrational gay-hating bastards should clear out right now and take your preposterous idea of creationism back to the Bible Belt.
Mutual respect
We cannot expect christians or any other theist to be open minded if we are not open minded ourselves. The fact that a christian would even consider posting on our blogs sujest some desire to discuss the issue of god with atheist. This should be seen as an opportunity not a nuisance.
However I do understand the need to vent. Especaly during the anger phase people go though when they first become atheist. I know I said a few choice words during mine.
I am a Theist, but please
I am a Theist, but please think before stoning me. I am also a fanatic, yet I realize that I cannot prove the existence of God to an agnostic or atheist or even to myself. One of the things that bothers me the most is that most agnostics / atheists (certainly not all) are as determined as a religious fundamentatalist to support even the subjective conclusions of their non-belief. I have had a website for some 25 years at www.lifenotes.org - and now have a free Apple iBook for iPad. While the third section is theistic, the first two sections of the book are based mostly on objective arguments. I too welcome open minded discussions on objective arguments. PS
Donridge: These people ceased
Donridge: These people ceased being "open-minded" once they cast reason aside in favor of "faith" in something they will never physically observe. They only deserve as much respect as the majority reciprocate with, which is right around Zero.
Hear Hear! :)
Hear Hear! :)
How'd you forget?
How'd you forget?
Deut. 22: 23,24 - A girl who is raped within city limits, and fails to cry out, must be killed.
I mean, if a girl has to get raped, at least take her outside the city limits. It's the word of God.
Out of Context
fanofhitch:
"If there is a betrothed virgin, and a man meets her in the city and lies with her, then you shall bring them both out to the gate of that city, and you shall stone them to death with stones, the young woman because she did not cry for help though she was in the city, and the man because he violated his neighbor's wife. So you shall purge the evil from your midst. (Deuteronomy 22:23, 24 ESV)
If you are trying to use scripture in order to dismiss Judaism or Christianity, at least quote the whole passage and try to understand what the passage is saying rather than write it off as irrational. This passage refers to Israelites more than 3000 years ago. No Jew or Christian today would declare that these verses are to be directly applied as they were in their original context. In that belief system, a betrothed virgin was a woman who was promised to a man in marriage and for all legal purposes, they were already married. The passage even states that "he violated his neighbor's wife." The woman was not raped, as you say, but she was having an affair. She was just as guilty as he was. The reason they were to be put to death was because they were a theocracy. They did not have a human king, but they believed God was their ruler. Under their theocracy, such blatant disrespect and, dare I say, sin was not tolerated.
It would be an extreme punishment in modern times but no Jew or Christian would agree to your statement. There is no more theocratic government that Jews or Christians must live by today. What they would get out of this verse is that you should not commit adultery because it is not right.
Be more careful about making arguments in areas that you are ignorant. You did not even read the verse correctly.
<p>Another common mistake
<p>Another common mistake made by atheist and Cristians is that they fail to separate Old Testiment ideas from the New Testiment ideas.</p><p>In the Old Testiment, God is seen as abitrary and the primary vertue is obedeance to God. Stoning was considered an aceptable punisment so long as God had no objections to it.</p><p>In the New Testiment, God is seen as wise and absoulute and his primary vurtues, as Jesus tells us, are<strong> love</strong>,<strong> peace</strong>, and<strong> aceptance. </strong>Under the New Testiment stoning is a completely unaceptable form of punisment; any clams that God demands oftherwise should be dissmised.</p><p>The Old Testiment should generaly be considered old news in regards to Cristianity because many of the ideas are incompatable with New Testiment vertues.</p><p>The point being made by this blog is that many Cristians fail to comply with the primary vurtues of Cristianity; Love, Peace, and Aceptance. </p>
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