Arguing With A Theist Is Like Arguing With A Child

I read the bible many times and attending many churches,MY observation is this there is no reality with the scriptures or churches,no conversions,no prayers answers,bible contraticts itself,unfulfilled or failed prophecies,the churchpeople lie constantly making excuses for there god,one comment I heard if god doesn,t heal now he will heal you in resurrection how lame,the reason you not getting bless when you tithe is you not spending your 90% right.how lame.

Bafbarros, I have clearly laid out my positions in the numerous posts I have made here and to your posts, so I will not bore anyone else here by listing them again. I will say that I figured out the the bible was a myth right in the very beginning when I read Genesis. Does not the fact that there are 2 ceation stories bother you bafbarros? As if to say to the reader, hey if story 1 does not tickle your fancy, try our 2nd story and see if you like that one. However odd it sounded to me I did continue on with the bible and read it all, many books I have read several times on different occasions to make sure I did not miss something. And I can tell you bafbarros, that any rational, critical thinking, and nonignorant person who reads it and believes the tale to be a true and literal account of creation, morality and basic human law is out of their minds, delusional and bat shit crazy. I do find it very telling bafbarros, that you have not answered my question I have patiently been waiting for a week now. Why is Jesus necessary when so many people no longer believe in the Genesis myth? If original sin did not happen then Jesus is irrelevant, not needed; and by extrapolation Christianity is rendered moot. Please answer the question for all us nonbelievers. Additonally, i would also like you or any other chridtian to state for me why anyone should be subjected to your God's morality? Man has rendered Yahweh's and Jesus' morality code irrelevant and needless by the simple fact that MAN rendered slavery immoral and abolished its disgraceful acceptance. I do not find any passage in the bible that God/Jesus decreed slavery to be abhorrant and must be eradicated. I only find passages where they both encourage, condone and support slavery. My point then is if man can change a law of the almighty god and declare it is bad and immoral, then why would anyone believe in anything else supposedly handed down from the magic man in the sky? Is it that maybe you and other christians think man made a mistake in abolishing slavery? As cynical as i am, even i cannot believe that. So, what i am saying is that God/Jesus cannot be counted on for absolute moral guidance or slavery would still be in place today. Again, man time and time again has rendered your godmen impotent but you fail to see this through your devotional covered glasses which you view the worlds. Lastly, I am completely finished with you and your stop calling me names routine. I do hope you will finally answer my question although I hold no hope for that. I do worry though that if you represent the typical christian minsdet we atheists are in serious trouble and need to step up our activism and support for groups as the American Atheists. For if the christian flock is like bafbarros, we must take a more assertive role as a group to fight for our freedom from religion before some whacked ot shepard leads these simple minded sheep towards christian theocracy and dominionism or even worse christian reconstructionism.

Raymond, I appreciate your honesty. At least I understand where you are, what you believe in and what why you don't believe - I respect that in person. Of course, if you have a brother who is a Roman Catholic and works in the medical/scientific field, he is clearly not ignorant or stupid, and yet he believes.

I do not get upset or take offense because someone does not believe in God. What I do take offense to is when people call me and other believers ignorant or stupid because of their beliefs. That in itself makes them ignorant and stupid because they are claiming to know everything there is to know. They have reached their own conclusions that the Bible is a myth and that has become Gospel as far as they are concerned. The ultimate pride and arrogance.

I would like to make one comment regarding your last point in response your comments about Jesus' statement, “I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children”.

First of all, I believe that what Jesus was saying there is that God hid the truth from the wide and learned because of their pride and the condition of their hearts. If there is one thing God hates probably more than anything else is pride (i.e. those who think they are above all else and perhaps even God Himself). God will reveal Himself (not the way you might expect - through Miracles and such) to those who are humble. Those who realize that they have fallen short of the Glory of God.

I will try and take your specific questions below:

"There’s several things I see wrong with this statement…
(1) If God wants people to believe in him he should reveal himself and make it obvious"

As a kid, I could not understand why God did not just simply show up on day and say here I am. Here is proof that I exist! Of course I knew it was not going to happen but I struggled with this more than anything.
The answer did not come until later in life when I finally understood free will. God does not force you or me anyone else to believe. He would have simply made us as robots and program us in a way that we would do exactly as commanded to do. Furthermore, God loves everyone (and I mean everyone, without exception) but He will not force anyone to love Him. Otherwise, we would be nothing but Robots. I cannot imagine living in that kind of world. That is why we call it belief and why we call it faith. And that is why I believe it is the way it is. He leaves it up to us to find Him - on our own. He wants us to love him but based on our own free will. It would not be love if we were forced to love him, would it? Free will is the key to it all - I think.

(2) If God hides that he exists from people, why does he get mad at people for not believing in him?

I don't believe God gets made at those who do not believe in Him. Yes, you may find in the Old Testament cases where God appears to have gotten mad at people for not believing in Him, but there was usually something else going on there. It was usually because of someone or whole group of people being evil or something to that effect.

(3) They say the same thing about God in the Quran – though Islam is an offshoot of Christianity
Don't know enough about the Quran to be able to comment.

(4) Why does God care about whether people believe in him or not? How is that moral or immoral? Shouldn’t an “all-powerful, all-knowing, all-good” God care more about whether a person is good and moral rather than whether they believe in him? It sounds rather petty and vain…

I think God cares about all of those things. I believe the reason He cares about believing in Him is because we need to recognize that regardless of how good or moral we are (or seem), we always fall short. And that is why we need a savior. We all have sinned and we cannot be in the presence of God unless we are redeemed by the Body and Blood of Jesus Christ. ...and this is where Atheists usually all rise up and cry foul and then call anyone who believes, ignorant or even stupid... and this is where I say, you do not have to believe but don't try and stop those who want to believe.

Have a great day!

Buckeyenonbeliever, you keep referring to the Bible and Jesus as irrelevant, and I would it would laughable if this were not an important matter. And if I did not consider this an important matter, I would have stopped this back-and-forth long ago. Eternity is a very long time indeed and where you spend it depends a lot on this life.

I think your problem is that you read the Bible in isolation and whether or not you understand it, you reach your own erroneous conclusions, and they become, the Gospel according to Buckeyenonbeliever. But enough about that.

I will recommend two books for you. I am not recommending these because of any expectations. I am recommending them because they offer a different perspective and if nothing else, you might find them interesting reads depending on your interests:

1- The End of Christianity, by William Dembski
http://www.amazon.com/End-Christianity-Finding-Good-World/dp/0805427430

2- Signature in the Cell
http://www.amazon.com/Signature-Cell-Evidence-Intelligent-Design/dp/0061...

Have a great Sunday!

"Grasping" is implying that there is something infallible or tangible in this universe that we can actually take hold of; or find faultless reason and truth in. How can we "grasp" the universe if no part of it can be logically grasped? That's a delusion in itself. I find no logic in his claim. Atheism is full of holes and is ridden with logical fallacies such as these. Therefore, I cannot accept it as truth. Science is an earthly tool used to gather mundane information. It is nothing more. Even stated by Richard Dawkins, "Science is interesting, and if you don't agree you can fuck off." That's the extent of science. It is interesting and a good tool for understanding how things work, but it cannot be turned into the all-knowing and debate-ending trump card. Atheism goes far beyond its "expertise" and uses science as its god. I am a Christian because faith transcends ALL fallacies. Ignorance is bliss.

Dear Mike, many of us also lived in ignorant blissland for many years acceptiing as fact what our parents, preachers and the bible tells us. Then something happened, some of us grew up, used our critical thinking abilities, rational thought processes and fine tuned our bullshit detectors and amazingly; your god looked more and more like a man made invention. Surely an all knowing, all merciful and all powerful god could not be jealous, weak and vengeful as the bible portrays because if so; he is not some supernatural deity but merely a man made invention to explain the unexplainable of the day. You claim your faith trancends all fallacies, but to all rational minded people who see through the myth(s), faith breeds ignorance ( a christians bliss), racism, mysogony and hatred, and has been responsible for, condoned and even led the charge for some of the most heinous crimes committed against man in human history. If you can have faith in and find bliss in all that; then the price of admission to blissland is too high a cost.

WOW! This was worth reading all of the replies.

Buckeyenonbeliever, first of all, I never said that I agree with Dembski not am I a 'follower' of Dembski. I simply recommended the book because it provides a different perspective -- particularly for a non-believer -- and thought it might help you to see things a little differently. It was not endorsement on my part, and in fact, I do not agree with quite a bit of what he writes in that book. I read it because I have an open mind and because I am totally comfortable with my faith – never been more so. Furthermore, I can quickly spot whenever someone is teaching something that is contrary to the essentials of the Christian doctrine. This allows me to read other materials without the fear of being taken down the wrong path. (Dembski is PROTESTANT and I am CATHOLIC– but I am not afraid to read what he writes, even if I disagree. It’s called an open mind)

As far as having an open mind, I am not sure you can say the same for yourself regardless of your belief system or lack thereof. YOU are totally INCAPABLE of even IMAGINING the possibility of the existence of a ‘supernatural being’ -- never mind believing in one or the God I believe in -- because if you do not see it, it must be impossible to exist. You are in your own little world... it must be visible, touchable, explainable otherwise, it is inconceivable. How shortsighted!

As for the other book, Signature in the Cell, you and others like you, dismiss it simply because of its title and because it undermines your cause – a godless universe. How close minded? Signature in the Cell is about science, NOT about religion. It is a large book of 700+ pages (I think) and probably has NO more than one or a half page, perhaps, where it briefly references religion. The reason I recommended it is because it explains, in depth, DNA, RNA, and everything about the cell as whole. The conclusion is that with something as complex as the cell, the probability that it could have "emerged" and evolved through undirected random processes, without a designer, is essentially ZERO. I DARE you to read it and reach any other conclusion!

SO, A LESSON FOR YOU, NEVER CRITICIZE A BOOK OR ANY KIND OF WRITING YOU HAVE NOT PERSONALLY READ!

Now, if you think I am NOT serious about NOT answering your question [I cannot even remember what it was at this point] about something you already have determined to be a myth, and refuse to see it any other way, think again! I have determined that arguing with the majority of atheists (a rare exception was Raymond – he at least was somewhat engaging and honest) is just a waste of time. Your minds are closed – set in stone. If you don't see it or touch it or smell it or hear it, it must not exist. Never mind that the evidence is all around you but you are too blind to see it. How close-minded indeed!!!

To say that the Bible is a myth and the existence of Jesus is a fable, shows your total lack of understanding of the Bible… how it was inspired and written by different authors on different continents, at different times -- and yet, if you look at the four Gospels, the overall theme and the message they convey are totally consistent. YES, THERE ARE APPARENT contradictions, but how could there not be if they were written as described above? I WOULD BE EXTREMELY SUSPECT if they were exactly the same, written in the same way, and in the same sequence. That is why it says the Gospel according to John, according to Luke... and so on. It is extremely hard to imagine reading the NT, unless one already has a preconceived notion, and/or does not understand what he/she is reading, and come to a different conclusion. The teachings of Jesus are entirely consistent throughout Scripture and there is no way to have made them up. Only the shortsighted see it differently. You are incapable of seeing it differently because you are blind, and Jesus was right about people like you.

If anyone needs help, Mr Buckeyenonbeliever, it is you and others like you – you have no clue! You do not know me, my background, or what I know. I am totally comfortable with who I am, what I know and believe. I thank God for having given me the faith to believe in Him. An old priest told me once a long time ago that that he sees God in everything. At the time, I had no clue what he was talking about. I can now say and that at least I understand what he was talking about, even if I still do not quite see it the way he did. This is what you call brainwash. I call it wisdom. My faith is strong enough to know that God does exist. It is you and others like you who are in need of help.

I have tried to help you see the world and life from a different perspective but one cannot change those with preconceived notions and whose minds are already set in stone. I refuse to waste my time any longer, but at least I can say that tried – a bit.

I don't want to sound like a broken record but here is something for you and other atheists to continue to ponder...

At that time Jesus said, “I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children”.

You have to be two sandwiches short of a picnic and as crazy as an acre of snakes to proselytize on a site clearly marked “American Atheists” under the wide-eyed assumption that NO ONE here is an EX-CHRISTIAN. Who here is an Ex-Christian? Show of hands?
Dearest TROLL,
Many of us gave our time, talents and treasures to the death cult and if we added the decades we were Christians and stacked them up against your measly “years of faith” where you “worked out your doubts” to your “personal” satisfaction, I’m afraid you’d be the one left with the knife at the gun fight. We were “TRUE” Christians and I deeply resent being told that “I just didn’t get it”. Now THAT is an insult and a slap in the face and the height of ARROGANCE. For your information, we were your Upward Basketball buddies, we watched your kids at Sunday school, we gave to missionaries, we baked, we bingo-ed and we raffled our way next to the Good Lard as much as anyone else.
In my case, as an ex-Catholic, I’m constantly told that I was NEVER a true Christian. That statement always makes me happier than a gopher in soft dirt because I belonged to the Mexican Opus Dei which views other Catholics, like you, with suspicion and labels all other 30,000 Christian sects as dangerous heresies rotting the “real” body of Christ, the “TRUE” church founded by Jesus Christ through apostolic succession and screwed up by Vatican II from whence it was rescued by a Weirdo-Cult-Leader-Who-Never-Had-Sex-So-Help-Him-God, the genital-free, St. Josemaría Escrivá de Balaguer.
You see, in the end, you can swap frames but you’re left with the same cucaracha.

Mike, I am reminded of the old expression of garbage in equals garbage out. Your entire belief system hinges upon reliance to fables, myths , fantastical and nonverifiable claims. If the input data (i.e. The Bible) is corrupt as proven by countless bible scholars; then any conclusions or information drawn from said corrupt data to verify its presuppossed assumptions are rendered meanlingless, invalid and moot. That is the height of logical fallacy which you and all other believers commit each and evey time you quote, reference or spew your religion to others. And yet you claim you came to this belief using logic. Please extrapolate that logic for all of us. I will now ask you to please go back to your blissful, ignorant delusion land where maybe you can receive further guidance in your religious studies, errr... I mean come to your own misguided, non-spoon fed arguments and logical fallacies.

The older creationist literature often claimed that both creationism and Darwinism were not matters of science proper because they address what cannot be empirically tested in a laboratory - the origin of species. Because this topic cannot be settled by performing repeatable experiments, it is not truly scientific. Therefore, both creationism and Darwinism are left to the realm of faith - faith in God or faith in godless nature. This approach, while highlighting the fact that Darwinism is not directly testable, is ill-advised for two main reasons. Science has long addressed issues that cannot be settled in the laboratory. Any time science treats a singularity - such as the creation of the universe, the origin of life and the origin of species - it considers events beyond direct experimental reach. We should employ scientific evidence concerning origins is that since Christian theism makes objective claims about the visibility of design in nature, there should be some evidence available to back up these claims.

Pony, do not hold your breath waiting for bafbarros' reply. He disappeared awhile ago along with his logic and commonsense. The only reference he, or any christian has for Jesus is the myth filled and forged bible.

Pony, do not hold your breath waiting for bafbarros' reply. He disappeared awhile ago along with his logic and commonsense. The only reference he, or any christian has for Jesus is the myth filled and forged bible.

So, I have a few questions for everyone out there who describes themselves as being an atheist. How old were you when you first learned your name? How about when you learned the alphabet? Was this something that you taught yourself, or did your teachers, your parents, and your family all help teach to you? Although we may come into this world with an ability to learn, most of what we come to understand only takes places with the interaction of others who came before us. It is this interaction that allows us to determine our own world view.

When we are first introduced to the world, we are eager to learn. Filled with a sense of wonder, we begin the process that will continue for the rest of our lives. We laugh, we play, and we accept others without any reservations. It is only with exposure to the world, and the community that surrounds us, that we begin to change. Just as we learn language with the help of others, so too do we shape ourselves based upon the values and lessons that our society holds to be of value.

None of us can escape this process. We hear, or read only the stories that have meaning to our community. Over time, we will fashion our own ethnocentric viewpoint, and then change our behavior to match it. This process is not limited by either the time, or the place that we live in. Oral traditions, hieroglyphics, and virtual reality applications are all tools that have been used teach us, and to help us understand our particular collective perception base. It is from this base that we begin making our way towards an understanding of our world, with all of its complexities and unanswerable questions.

One of these tools that allows us to work towards this goal is the Bible. Like the Koran, the Torah, and other religious texts, its faithful followers use it as a way to understand life, with all its joys and sorrows. It is a book filled with life lessons, and promises. It is from these lessons that our society has defined acceptable behavior, and defined a code of moral rules that have profound influence on each of us. Generations of people before us have looked to the Bible as a way to find encouragement, inspiration, and to find a reason for hope. And yes, many have turned to the Bible as a way to warn others of the consequences for what we collectively define as immorality.

As the first lesson in the Bible reveals, each of us is given the choice to believe and to act as we choose, and to define our own set of truths. Unlike determinism, this idea of free will allows us to understand the idea that there are consequences in life that result from those choices that we, willingly, make. For those of us blessed to live In America, we also know that no one will hold a gun to our head and demand we must, unwillingly, believe in what their particular belief system happens to calls for. It is of free choice that those of us who choose to follow a religious choice that is based upon a biblical foundation. And it is no small number of us who make this choice. We come from all walks of life, but when it comes to matters of faith, we are all equals in our inability to fully understanding the being we call God, the Almighty, Yahweh, or the Christ. It is a single mechanism, our Faith, which binds us together in our recognition of the power, the love, and the salvation, which comes from our God.

None of this portends a knowledge that is absolute. Instead, the truly religious person understands that ours is only an attempt to understand the Almighty. It is a process that is both evolving and gradual. Despite a long history, and society’s best efforts, we still remain human, and as such we are quite fallible. Yet, it is because of this weakness, and this humility that we are better able to recognize both the wonders of God, and of His majestic creations. Whether it is sitting atop a mountain vista, and seeing our tiny segment of the vast universe, or when we stare into the beautiful eyes of a newborn child, we can’t help but ponder the amazing powers of our Lord. It is in times like these that we also stop and recognize just how small our presence is in a universe, a universe that we truly don’t understand. Perhaps, in a moment of wonder like this we think of a question that needs to be answered by those who do not accept a higher power in life. Why would billions of people around the globe, and from every generation, maintain a belief system that you, a very small segment of society, have decided can’t exist? What it is that allows you to state with a guarantee that God is not real? Obviously, the argument hasn’t taken hold.

In the Bible it is written (Romans 10:17) that “…faith comes by hearing, hearing the Word of God.” If you intentionally deny God’s word, you are also acting to deny God. For you, the atheist, this is to be expected, this is what you have taught yourself, or what someone else has taught you.

Now here comes the most important question of the day. As an atheist, how do you feel about the purpose of your life? With no meaning to your life, and no eternal consequences for your actions, do you live each day as if it were your last? With life having finality, is there really any reason to practice charity, offer compassion, or worry about consequences for what you do? Doesn’t your belief system allow you to take a view that is based solely upon utility, justifying any means so long as it provides the most pleasure? This is the thinking that justifies the actions of a tyrant, whose philosophy allows anything that keeps the tyrant in control. And if your, and the tyrant’s views are correct, then why not get as much as you can from this temporal existence. For you see, if God doesn’t exist, then there is no reason for any of you to long for anything but the pleasures that come from living a hedonistic life.

But, instead, what if you knew you could live forever, and that you would, indeed, be held accountable for your actions in this world? Wouldn’t that cause you to change your actions, and to think about the world, and the rest of humanity, in a different way? If you followed the thoughts of the majority of us, you would realize that all of us are accountable to God, and to each other. Indeed, it is this concept that has become the glue that holds our society together. It is biblical teachings that have helped us define the ideas of right and wrong. It is from the same Bible that Christian thought mandates the concepts of charity and forgiveness. All of this brings about a better world for us to live in, even for those like you who don’t believe. It is the benefits that come from this type of faith that I, and most of those in the world, accept as a good thing. My choice comes from the strength of my convictions that I have freely chosen. It is my acceptance of the teachings of Jesus Christ, the son of the most high God, that give me an understanding that I can share in an eternal life. It is in His words and teachings that I find order and harmony, peace and forgiveness, and a promise that life is so much more than the brief period we spend here.

Anything worth having in life has a price. Salvation comes at a price, but for those of us who share in my beliefs, those costs were borne by God’s blessed Son, so that whoever would believe in Him would not perish, but have an every lasting life.

You get to choose. As for me and my house, we will BELIEVE.

Well it seems at this point to make a reasonable theistic argument would be quite difficult considering every possible angle otherwise, right? Or is that too much of an absolute statement? Regardless, I think within several of the atheistic arguments presented here do you find inconsistencies. There is a clear misdirection in the understanding of orthodox Christianity with blanket statements about how there is all this evidence that has disproven it. It would just be simpler to conclude that you don't agree with the Christian worldview and be done with it. You don't trust any Christian scholarship or educated pastors and use that against Christians for not making reasonable, logical arguments when all of your "research" and worldview are according to everyone scholar, scientist, or educator that you follow. This is a double standard. I imagine the percentage is high for those of us who have not truly considered the evidence against their own beliefs. Considering the website, I would venture a guess that most of you have not read anything outside the methodological naturalist bubble.

Concerning theistic arguments, there are two categories in which we put forward proofs for existence of God. They are poseriori arguments, which include cosmological, design, moral, and religious experience. Then there is priori, which depends on rational argument such as ontology. Apparently, all of these have been supposedly debunked and would be considered irrational. Yet, there is no mention of any of these arguments. If Christians are held accountable to prove then atheists should be held accountable to disprove on the same terms. Most of your argumentation is based on what Christians would call "general revelation". God has revealed Himself in both nature and in the conscience. So, what you know about anything, including your ability to think about thinking, is only because God has made man in His own image, thereby, giving man the likeness of its Creator. Atheist say science is about reaching its unified theory, Hawking's mind of God theory. Yet, for so long now the theory has not been confirmed by experiment, for which atheists claim everything is subject to, and it is only in agreement by the theoreticians that it is accepted. This is not science. This is philosophy of science. Without empirical evidence the theory, as David Lindley put it, starts taking "on the qualities of myth."

Well this has been one of the most 'spirited' (pun intended) group of posts I've ever read. Just a little about me and I'll put in my two cents.

I was a Christian for many years and was employed by a few churches, the last a large non-denominational church. Even had "church-boy" as a nickname in high school and into the first years of college. Seeing the hypocrisy, politics and caddy behavior first hand made me first start to question my faith. At first I blamed the church for its shortcomings and wanted to "leave church without leaving god." Which has been a topic of many books, some which I had read to start this journey. In doing so I came across information in other texts pertaining to the history of God and the Bible. Non of which reaffirmed my faith. (kinda surprised what I'm about to outline hasn't been mentioned yet on this forum) Being an open-minded individual (and if any "believer" says otherwise I usually take offense as you do to either me or any other contributor on here claiming there is no God) I found not only the inconsistencies of the bible but the questionable origins of both the bible and the story of Jesus.

Reading the arguments on this site, the common denominator is what can be questioned and proved. Typically when one wants to reaffirm a claim about a subject they look at the original argument (the Bible) and research its validity. If you can find something suspect about it then it requires scrutiny and must be viewed in a suspicious manner.

Lets start with the compilation and evolution (man I love puns) of the Bible
As we all know (or should know, your friendly neighborhood church doesn't disclose this) before the Bible was compiled into the christian canon we see today it was a collection of writings from all over the ancient world. Written in different languages, but more importantly it was a verbal history for many generations before pen, er quill, was put to paper. Ever play telephone when you were a kid? Never was the original message repeated by the last person. Now I know this is kind of a reach as far as a comparison to verbal history being passed down over the generations but you can't expect that in every instance of every book of the bible that the original message was preserved. The books of the Bible are not only long and confusing but really boring.
That being said, when the Bible was started to be “organized” in the 4th century the writings that were excluded, more so with the new testament than with the old, folks at the time considered those books to be “inspired by God” just like the other books that are in the Bible. But because they were deemed unfavorable to the portrayal of this religion they were left out and subsequently banned and mostly destroyed for fear of what they may reveal. Some have been unearthed and paint a different story than what you find in the Bible today.
The translations of the Bible are also suspicious. I've heard the claim that because monks washed themselves every time they wrote one of God's many names, and the reproduction of the Bible was so excruciating that it had to be just as it was when it originally produced (another stupid miracle claim). Also heard that when the dead sea scrolls were discovered that when fact checked, it was identical. Another lie. The translations had been off (several translations into many languages done over the years) and many of the passages could be interpreted into modern languages in different ways. Plus to boot, there was only one book of the old testament in its entirety, the others just partial collections.
On to the current english versions, if you read the same passages from different versions it does not say the same thing. Not all modern versions are the same. Sometimes the ESV will include a word the NIV doesn't, or the NASB might omit a phrase the NIV and NRSV both retain, etc.

So in conclusion with the Bible... Made by man, manipulated into what was easiest to sell to the masses with the least amount of questions asked and not only inconsistent between versions but as noted time and time again inconsistent within each version. Hard to take a written book as fact when it has so many things inherently wrong with it.

Now with the content and hard to believe stories of the Bible
Talking animals (snakes and donkey's no less), survival of the human race coming from one couple without sever mental retardation (as seen in many fundamentalists) or physical deformations, a man surviving inside a whale (sorry big fish) for 3 days and 3 nights, a man possessing superhuman strength that loses it because he got a haircut, children being mauled to death by bears because they teased Elijah about being bald (hair must be sacred), God kills Onan because he pulls out of his dead brothers wife and spills his seed, a father offering his virgin daughters up for rape to protect a stranger staying in his house, Saul requiring a dowry of 100 foreskins and David brings back 200 from murdered men and all is good, Moses's wife saves his life from God by cutting off their son's foreskin (what is up with circumcision?), Jesus curses and kills a fig tree because he commanded it to bear fruit out of season and it didn't happen, God moons Moses instead of facing him because that would kill him, and one of my favorites planting striped sticks next to fucking cattle will produce striped cattle.
These are just a few, most of us who question the Bible probably recognized these but I can't count how many “christians” have never heard of some of these stories and I've had to give them the Bible verses because they did not believe me. Unbelievable even to me, one of these was a baptist preacher.

Needless to say, if you can't take the entire Bible at its literal meaning then how can you take any of it as fact. Now I can already hear those keyboards clicking wanting to explain to me that some stories in the Bible are parables and are meant to teach us lessons. Please take the time and explain to me why death, rape, cursing trees and so many other fucked up stories can be used to teach things. Oh yeah, most of these stories are not parables but supposed historical events, strike that, ATROCITIES, committed by a loving God.

My favorite part, the story of Jesus
The main reason I don't believe that Jesus is the savior, the Rosetta Stone. Thanks to a french soldier in Napolean's army tripping over what became known as the Rosetta Stone, archaeologists were able to decipher Egyptian hieroglyphs. With that came all kinds of stories from the temple walls and scrolls. One story was of an Egyptian god named Horus.
Some of the highlights of Horus's story was that he was the savior born of an Egyptian god through a virgin birth from a woman named Mari, his host father was named Jo-Seph, his birth was announced by angels and heralded by a star, his birth was celebrated during the winter solstice, was visited by 3 solar deities, Heroed the man in charge at the time tried to have Horus murdered, Was carried out of Egypt to escape the wrath of Herod, has no record of his life from the ages of 12 to 30, was baptized at the age of 30 by a man who was latter beheaded, resisted a temptation from a rival on top of a mountain, had 12 disciples, walked on water, cast out demons, healed the sick and the blind, calmed the seas, raised Osiris from the dead (which translates to El-Asarus in Latin and into Lazarus) who was from Anu (Lazarus was from Bethanu meaning “house of Anu”), delivered a sermon on the mount, was crucified next to two thieves and buried in a tomb, his resurrection was announced by women, is supposed to return for a 1000 year reign, known as the anointed one (translated into Christ) AND the good shepherd AND the lamb of God AND the bread of life AND the son of man AND the word AND the fisher, etc.,

The Egyptian god Horus is identified with the Tau (cross).

Sound familiar folks? If the story of Jesus is a rehash of a previous, heretic religion, an obvious case of plagiarism, then it not only follows suit along with other instances of occupying nations adopting the local religion, but is unoriginal and Jesus is not a christian God. Oh and the most telling part of this revelation to folks is when the story of Horus was inscribed on Egyptian tombs. NEARLY 1000 YEARS BEFORE JESUS SUPPOSEDLY WALKED THE EARTH.

The reason why I don't believe that Jesus ever existed... no historical reference to him prior to writings of the new testament. If he roamed around causing a stir and influencing as many people as was described then there must be some other author outside the Bible that would at least mention him. At least a historical reference in some kind of Roman records about his arrest and execution.

So in conclusion, how can you believe anything that is rooted in misrepresented falsehoods? Faith? That faith is in based in said misrepresented falsehoods. I'd like to take this time to tell those who do believe in God not to take what I have presented here without some scrutiny of your own. That's what I did and this is what I found. Also don't take anything told to you by religious figures without the same scrutiny. Find your own answers but please if you still believe in a supreme being after your own investigation, that's fine, just realize that you're fucking wrong.

Best of luck

Now that I have got that off my chest, the reason why arguing with a theist is like arguing with a child... they don't truly realize what they have faith in and are defending.

I am a theist, and I challenge myself every day to open my mind to different ideas and opinions so that I may develop a well-rounded view of reality. In fact, that's why I created a profile on this website.

I think that it's unfair to make generalizations and assumptions about people. My reason for believing this is because if there is one exception to your generalization your assumption becomes false.

One idea that I have found many atheist promote is the idea that all beliefs and opinions should come from critical thinking. As a theist who identifies as, "spiritual but not religious", I do just that. I don't personally subscribe to one point of view but look for what's reasonable in all points of view. I ask myself existential questions and don't allow others to pressure me into conforming to their particular beliefs. That’s something that not even all atheists do if they happen to be born into a culture or family that is atheist.

I also believe in tolerance and find it ineffective to call people names such as childish. Even if someone is unkind to you, the best way to help them understand you isn't to retaliate in the same fashion. The idea of nonviolence to promote change has been successfully demonstrated by theist such as Gandhi and Martin Luther King.

I believe that all people can make positive change and add something meaningful to the world, regardless of whether or not they are theist. Simply saying that you are a theist or an atheist does not automatically reflect something about your moral fiber. Someone can switch from theist to atheist, or vice versa, and if they were a shitty human being before, they will still be a shitty human being after. Calling theist names such as childish indicates a level of arrogance and prejudice, which in turn indicates hatred.

What’s most important should be building a society of tolerance, and in the words of this website, free thinking individuals.

Atheists provide an important service to theist. Atheist force theist to think, and by thinking more critically, theist are able to be theist with the knowledge that the choice is their own, and not the result of upbringing or brainwashing. They also develop a clearer understanding of atheist and what atheism really is. Asking more of a person than that is asking too much, and isn’t at all realistic. Not everyone is going to have the same beliefs. To request that someone give up their beliefs to conform to yours is not asking them to think freely. Heck, isn’t the pressure to conform to one set of beliefs one of the main grips atheist have about religious theist?

I don’t care how much of a scientific background a person has, no one holds all of the answers, and every human being is flawed. Much of our values, sense of purpose, and beliefs about what it means to be truly alive can’t be answered by science. Because science tells us what things are (positive statements), questions about what things should be (normative statements) are typically answered on an individual level. Answers to normative statements can vary within religious groupings, or any other groupings of people. How arrogant to assume that when questioning what's true (which is relative) every person will discover that the answer is the same as yours.

I don’t think it’s proper to separate oneself from the connectedness that we all share as human beings, create an “us and them mentality”, and then hold one’s self as superior to others. We all go through life attempting to build a moral framework for ourselves, some sort of meaning, and something in which to place our faith/hope. True, faith is a belief in things not seen. However, without faith there can be no hope because faithlessness leads us to conclude that nothing can ever change, and all that there is now is all that there ever will be. Furthermore, because the quest for truth, scientific or otherwise, is a constant pursuit I believe it best to take to heart the statement, “the man who knows something knows that he knows nothing at all.” All of our knowledge and wisdom is built on silt not stone. We are all the same, every last one of us, and there is no escaping that.

One thing that I place my faith in is the idea that someday humans will change and become more tolerant of one another without requiring the eradication of religion, spirituality, and theism. I believe this because I am a living example that theist can in fact be tolerant. Another quote from a theist named Gandhi, “be the change you wish to see in the world.” Perhaps you should critically think about your covert hostility towards theist and what your true intentions are as a human being.

So let’s rewind… I am a theist coming on to this website with an open mind and this is one of the first conversations I see. If I was a more sensitive and less understanding person I would be seriously hurt and turned off.