SOCAS High School Hero Jessica Ahlquist Threatened and Harassed by Christians

I agree with you MisanthropicScott about fighting over birthrights. I also Buckeye don't expect apologies from people for actions they did not committ. You and I are no more responsible for the atrocities committed in the Bible then we are for the slave trade in the US. To insist modern decendents apologize for ancient ancestors behavior is a sham and belittles the whole idea of apology. I do however expect them to acknowledge that the Bible sanctioned such action whether one can ever point to an exact episode, find the buried bodies or not. The point is IF modernday folks want to live in a peaceful world the mass in the middle of average folks are going to have to learn to speak up against intolerance, hate speech, bullying etc.

buckeyenonbeliever,I certainly agree with all your points you made against the bible.The bible is a horrible book against civilization ,it antisemite,antiwomen anticonstitution,antilife.The theist want this world to end so badly,all they care about is the here and after and spreading their religous poisons that are lies.

Ken the Bible isn't a horrible book. It is full of great wisdom for those that will read it thoughtfully and CRITICALLY. It is full of myth and metaphor, beautiful poetry and some historical facts. Myths are stories and as such they convey a variety of messages. Sometimes the only way to know what not to do, what is immoral and wrong, is to hear the stories of attrocities. BUT it isn't the only book full of great wisdom. It is no more sacred nor less sacred, contains no greater TRUTH/s or lesser truths than the texts of other world religions or many of the writings of our great thinkers and philosophers. Those that try to insist that it is to be read literally miss much of what it has to offer, and I think they suffer for it, just as those who dismiss it as a horrible book suffer for not understanding it for what it is. If the problems of this world and particularly the problems in the Middle East are ever to be solved, it will ONLY come when people have a full understanding of the history, the stories, the meaning, the intent of sacred literature and beliefs that have driven men to act as they do and sometimes sanctioned and offered absolution for what they have done.

The bible is a horrible book full of false propaganda against humanity,Thomas Paine,Christopher Hichens,Sam Harris,Mr. Ingersoll, Einstein,Carl Sagan and Great thinkers would agree with me. These great thinkers certainly didn't check their mind at door of all religious teachings ,for they used critical thinking!!!! Hello! theists!!!

You are wrong Ken all of those you cited didn't disapprove of the Bible, some accepted it for what it is. Krystalline Apostate is also wrong. The Bible is what it is. IF and that is a very important IF, IF you want to understand world history you had better get a responsible and honest understanding of the Bible, its history and the people that produced it. One of the most beautiful poems ever written is Ecclesiastes. Have either of you ever read that? The Bible is a difficult book and not easily understood, it does take intelligence and thoughtful consideration to read it and to sort out the true gems. BUT there are pleanty of wonderful commentaries that can help you work through it: Bart Ehrman's books are among my favorites. I also like the books of Karen Armstrong, they will give you a good basic understanding of the different world religions and religious concepts. There really is no excuse in this century for such ignorance as you both seem to possess. For better and worse the Bible is what it is and IF we are ever to solve the world's problems folks like you will have to educate themselves about the sacred texts that have moved people and continue to move people to take the actions that they do AND that offer them absolution for those actions.

Einstein wrote at the very end of his book “The World as I See It”, “If one purges the Judaism of the Prophets and Christianity as Jesus Christ taught it of all subsequent additions, especially those of the priests, one is left with a teaching which is capable of curing all the social ills of humanity.”

He also says in the chapter “Religion and Science”, “The Jewish scriptures admirably illustrate the development from the religion of fear to moral religion, which is continued in the New Testament.” “The development from a religion of fear to moral religion is a great step in a nation’s life.”

Those are the words of a man who understands the Bible and can see what is good within its pages NOT the words of a man who thinks the Bible is horrid! Whoever told you that Einstein “hated” the Bible blatantly and inexcusably lied to you. If I were you I’d investigate the writings of each of those other folks you mentioned and find out the TRUTH about what they thought.

One other comment. Have you ever heard of the Jefferson Bible. Thomas Jefferson, you know the dude that wrote the Declaration of Independence, went through his Bible and removed all references to miracles and the supernatural, basically leaving the moral and ethical parts. AND he did this long before Einstein appeared on the planet. Also are you familiar with the difficulties he had getting the Declaration accepted, especially by those wonderful South Carolinians, their descendents perhaps? who think that Newt Gingrich is sincere in his declaration of having found Jesus, from PBS NewsHour last night, but I digress. When objections were made that “God” was left out, Jefferson very craftily in my opinion chose his words quite carefully and used some very generic, so to speak words, “Nature’s God”, “Supreme Judge of the World”, “Divine Providence”. There is more than one way to “skin a cat”!

MisanthropicScott the Gita, The Upanishads, the Tao teh Ching, the KamaSutra are all full of great wisdom, of a slightly different version than what is contained in the Bible!

Latinatheist I am not a Christian, as to substituionary atonement, I do however understand the complications and implications of the doctrine and I suspect that many don't have a clue about what you are talking about. Yes I have spoken and know personally victims of domestic violence. I know personally people who have been persecuted for their beliefs as well as those who have been persecuted for not believing. So cut the BS. Never challenge anyone you don't know about such things.

The issue isn't this book it is what the people that read the book choose to take from it, learn from it, get out of it. A book, any book is simply a means to convey a message and there are MANY different messages contained within the pages of the Bible. The people that fail to understand the full breadth and depth of the Bible and are unwilling to accept it for what it is, warts and all, suffer for their ignorance. And that goes for the Atheist and the fundamentalist Theist.

Einstein said, “The Jewish scriptures admirably illustrate the development from the religion of fear to moral religion, which is continued in the New Testament.” “The development from a religion of fear to moral religion is a great step in a nation’s life.” If you can't grasp what Einstein is saying you have missed most of what the Bible has to teach you.

Humphrey, I see right through you.

In a post to Ken; 1/20/12, 11:16
And aside from your thoughtful & critical rubbish, you said about the Babble:

" it's no more nor less sacred, & contains no greater nor lesser truths "

Then in reply to Mr Scott ; 1/21/12, 18:54
You then seemed to have suddenly & totally come in absolute favor of the, Babble?

This implies a lie on your part, & so begs the question.
Humphrey, why are you lying?

Ceberus if you think you "see through me" (I am not transparent but I am reflective) what you are seeing is a reflection of yourself. Now you make the same error that the others make assuming that because I tell people the Bible is an important book to read, a must read for those that want to understand human history, and full of great wisdom for those that will read it thoughtfully and CRITICALLY (did you miss that part of my statement?) YOU assume that I "buy into everything it says, that I accept it as literal truth, that I am trying to promote Christianity, that I am telling people they must do everything this book tells them to do" what rubbish.

One more point Latinatheist. Do you think that people should know about this issue of substitutionary atonement? Which by the way isn't unique to Christianity. It has appeared in civilizations from sea to shining sea. Our term "scape goat" comes from the practice. Christians I admit did put their own spin to the concept.

Should people be taught/told about the concept, the pros and cons, the historical basis (how it came to be developed), the problems and issues raised, how it has been put into practice, the Biblical passages that support it AND the passages that don’t support it, what it means in practical terms and practices for 21st Cent. people, what other religious people think about the doctrine and how they have dealt with the questions/issues involved? OR do you think people should be kept ignorant of the issue, just told it is a “BAD” doctrine, the Bible is an evil/horrid book so ignore it?

Should people be discouraged or even denied the opportunity to go to the source material where they can read for themselves the passages involved, discouraged or even denied the opportunity to read commentaries on the issues from some of our worlds greatest theologians and secular thinkers?

I happen to think that ALL people should be encouraged to go to the source material and read for themselves, that they should be encouraged to read the commentaries written by our worlds theologians and secular thinkers, that they should be encouraged to learn what other people from different religions and ethnic backgrounds think about the issues so that they can make responsible and informed decisions for themselves. The Bible is a must read for anyone that wants to be informed on the issues that have shaped our history and will continue to shape our history.

One more comment for now. There are two main threats to peace and prosperity, the freedoms we enjoy and our democratic forms of government.

One comes from militant fanaticism, the willingness to do whatever is necessary to see that the other guy looses, even if that means you might harm your own cause, subvert your own principles (lie, cheat, steal, bully/abuse both physical and mental. Militant fanatics belittle and demean and demonize the "enemy" as people (including their sacred texts, their religious or ethnic practices,their race or ethnicity)that is the only way they can justify and sanctify their actions against them. AND they are all to willing to sacrifice themselves or their own people in the process (as witness the modern day use of suicide bombers).

The second threat comes from blind and willful ignorance. I don’t know which is worse the ignorance of the religious fundamentalist or the ignorance of the atheist, both forms are inexcusable (in my opinion) in this 21st Century.

Oh., but I do see through you, as I've already exposed you for the lying bigot you obviously are. No?
Those were your words, not mine.
So sorry, but I'm not buying your bullshit.
And if you have any proof to validate your claim, then please present it?
If not, than you're just another lying (Christian) -- that's what you are -- &aren't to be taken seriously on such matters. Sorry about your bad luck.

And the only gems you hold in the hand of your mind, are black.
the same color as your eyes when you finally confront that image of yourself in the mirror.

Wow.talk about fundamentalist ignorance.
But you do offer very excessive comic relief though, I'll give you that!
As Mr Buckeye would say:
Have a nice deluded & blissful life.

Cerberus you are one angry, confused and mixed up dude. I am not nor have I ever been a Christian. If I need to describe myself I will say I am a Secular Gnostic Taoist.

Secular in the sense that I don’t belong to any organized group, I promote no single doctrine/dogma/creed, have no proscribed rituals or practices. It doesn’t matter to me if a person believes in a God or Gods or believes in NO God or Gods. I might add I feel not need to demonize, belittle or demean people that believe in God.That is a matter between the person and his/her God/s or conscience.

I am a Gnostic in that I am a seeker of understanding and I don’t feel that I need Pope or Priest, Minister or Mullah, to tell me what I need to believe or to intercede between me and what it is I am seeking. I can, I must and can ONLY figure it out for myself.

Gnosticism is translated as knowledge but I think that misses the point of what Gnosticism is about. Knowledge in our day and age refers to facts and figures. In Science, laws and theories, in History, names, dates, places, in Psychology the nature of the human condition, in Sociology the nature of groups and how individuals behave as part of a group. Gnosticism is about putting all (or as many as you can get) the pieces of the puzzle together to figure out, to come to an understanding about what IT, life, being human are all about. Many scholars make the error of defining Gnosticism by what some specific groups or individuals have figured out. That would be like defining a Christian or Christianity by what one particular denomination (Church of Christ, or Church of the Holy Spirit) or one particular theologian (Calvin or St. Augustine) believes.

I am a Taoist in the sense that I try to follow a middle path, avoiding the extremes on all sides. I find great meaning in the Tao teh Ching, in the concept of Yin and Yang, in the I Ching. I try to live a life that is in balance and harmony with the universe. BUT I also realize that as an enlightened human being I have an obligation and a duty to speak up for and do what I can to help those that are oppressed and those that are suffering. I fully recognize that to do so means that I will often be at odds with the status quo, out of balance with those extremists at either end of the spectrum that adhere to their particular “party line” and insist or try to force through laws or coercive means that all others do the same.

I am NOT a Theist, Deist, Pantheist, Panentheist or Polytheist. I see the concepts of God and the Devil as metaphors for the good and evil that lie within all humans.

I am an environmentalist and recognize the oneness of all things. The atoms in my body are the same as those found in rocks, plants, animals, water, and air. The life force that animates me animates all living things, plants and animals. AND to be honest I admit that I don’t know where this life force came from. It is something that we haven’t, at least at this point in time been able to artificially reproduce. BUT I am not willing to say that it came from a God for lack of a better answer. I accept that I have responsibilities to care for the natural world, not to exploit it for personal gain or profit. It is all that we have. I realize that as a human my survival depends upon having clean air to breathe, clean water to drink and a safe food and drug supply.

I am a realist and accept the world, its history and institutions, as they are and find no need to pretend that they are something different, something either worse or better. I am also an optimist and feel that we as humans have the capacity to make our human institutions better and life for all people more bearable and fulfilling, that we can create a “heaven” on earth. BUT I am fully aware that we also have the capacity to turn this world into a living Hell for all creatures.

Most importantly I believe that it isn’t what religion you follow or whether you follow any, ALL that matters are our day to day actions, how we treat our fellow man, especially those that are different from us whether from race or ethnicity, gender identification, sexual preference, gender, age, country of origin, wealth or social status, religion or lack thereof, or those that don’t believe what we believe.

Latinatheist I think I addressed a post to you that should have been addressed to Krystallin, my apologies. I also failed to respond to Buckeye.

Buckey you said “reason, not Religion will solve the world’s problems….” I agree to a major degree. BUT how do you think you go about building a world system based on reason? Do you do it by belittling, demeaning, demonizing, persecuting those that believe differently? History shows us that those that feel persecuted usually dig in their heels, and come out stronger and more determined than before. You mentioned the definition of insanity, doing the same thing over and over expecting a different outcome each time.

OR do you do it by educating honestly, without bias or bigotry, hate or anger? OR do you do it wisely by coming to an understanding of your opponent and developing a strategy that outwits them?

In the art of war, one of those wonderful Chinese philosophy texts, we learn that wars are lost because people underestimate the strengths and abilities of their opponent, largely because they fail to understand their opponents needs and desires. Or to put it more simply because of HUBRIS. Such a wonderful word, it is the belief that I and I alone have all the answers, no one else can teach me anything, I am superior in everyway to those “others”. Rumsfeld as a modern day example had a major case of Hubris!

You and Hitchens seem to use the same definition of “religion” and it is one that places Atheism in the same boat, so to speak. From what I have read of Hitchen’s writing he isn’t consistent in defining or using the word. You both seem to use religion in perhaps the broadest definition of the word, a religion is a system of beliefs, a matter of conscience. Religion isn’t just about a belief in God or Gods. Belief in “reason” is in this sense as much a religion as a belief in a God or Gods. Which is why I take acception to Hitchens statement that religion poisons everything.

Both of you seem to turn “religion” into an animate entity, unto itself, like a virus. AND you accuse the other guy of being infected by it without realizing that you are also infected by it.

You may contend that religion and God have had their chance and failed miserably but until you are able to offer a better alternative, and convince others that it is a better alternative, religion in all its forms and for a great variety of reasons (because it serves a variety of purposes/needs) is here to stay.

Religion in all its forms is a creation of men and as such is only as good or as bad as the men that create it and the people that practice it.

So Krystalline what makes someone an Atheist? Technically and originally an Atheist was someone who wasn't a Theist. Today it is a word that refers to someone who doesn't believe in a God or Gods, or some sort of transcendent being, whatever name you choose to use. I wasn't aware that to be a "good" Atheist one had to past a certain test. OR that one had to be abusive and disrespectful, demean and belittle, people (and their sacred texts) that don't believe what I believe. OR that one has to be as blind and foolish as their opponent! By the way the Bible isn't JUST a Christian book. The Old Testament is Judaic. The New Testament is Christian. A VERY, VERY important difference. ALSO it is an important book for ALL to read and understand, because for better and worse it has shaped world history and will continue to do so whether you or others like it or not!

Dear buckeyenonbeliever,I have read your comments a number of times and they are very accurate and honest not like the theists you are debating for their comments are very deceitful and evasive. Humphreys is one example and william craig and the whole lot of them.

What a brave girl. I have myself just started a blog (atheistkid.wordpress.com) about the challenges of bringing up a non-believing child in the US. It is terrifying to think of my own daughter having someday to face this sort of hatred, and yet I must face the high probability that she will, and hope that I can arm her to stand up to it as staunchly as this young woman has. It is good to know that there are organizations such as American Atheists to support atheist activism.

I would like to suggest that some of you go back to the top and reread the original article then the subsequent comments, thoughtfully and CRITICALLY. Then THINK about two statements I made to Buckeye in particular. The one about Atheism becoming or being as much of a religion in the broad use of the term as Christianity. And the post where I mention accusing others of catching a virus without realizing that you have also caught the same virus. Then think about Christopher Hitchens statement, “religion poisons everything”!

Some of you have done to me and to some others who added comments what the students in the original article did to Jessica; you belittle, demean, make false accusations, utter hate filled words (hope you go to hell from one poster), say you don’t belong here (why are you posting on an atheist site, i.e. accusing me of not being a “good” atheist).

To your credit no threats of violence, or that may be do to the moderator excluding threats of violence, or to the fact that none of you know where I live.

After Bush left office and some of the details of what went on in his administration AND after listening to the comments made to the online discussions at my local paper about supporting torture in particular, supporting the violation of rights IF it was done to catch a “terrorist”, for example, I came up with this phrase and I hope you will all think about it.

“Once you become that which you abhor you have lost the war.”

Stephen Weinberg, Nobel laureate and American physicist said and I paraphrase here;
With or without religion, good people will be good, bad people will be bad but it takes religion to get ordinarily good people to commit evil.

I am also going to add another catch phrase to my collection:
“Religion can poison everything, but it doesn’t have to.”

Misanthropic Scott if you ONLY read one book even if that book is about human brains or about Big Bang Theory, or about Evolution, you won't learn much.You may have a head full of factual information BUT until you learn how those human brains work in social situations, how they create memories, and how those memories affect behavior and day to day actions you will be as blind as before you read the book. I haven't suggested that people read only ONE book nor have I said that reading the Bible is more important than reading any other book. To suggest that I have is a blatant lie. I have said it is an important book, full of great wisdom for those that will read it thoughtfully and CRITICALLY and a must read for those that want to understand human history because for better and worse it has shaped that history and will continue to do so whether folks like it or not.

If any of you want to argue about whether you can understand human history without having an understanding the philosophies that have shaped that history than do so. Attacking me shows that you are just as "bad" as those that attacked Jessica. You have become that which you pretend to abhor.

Also MisanthropicScott, you claim that you are an anti-theist. Do you know the difference between Deism and Theism? Or the difference between Pantheism and Panentheism? Do you know what Polytheism is all about? If you don't know the differences I suggest you do a little google search and see what you can find.

As an atheist, I see no evidence to support the claim that any deity or set of deities exist. Should some evidence arise, I would instantly change my opinion to agnosticism at the very least. However, no evidence of scientific quality has ever been put forth.

As an antitheist, I think that most forms of belief in deities have been used to further violent causes. As such, I oppose them. There may be some exceptions like Jainism. But, these are few and far between.

Hi Humphrey; did you miss me?

So... I'm the angry confused & mixed up dude?
No mix ups, but I'd say you're the one confused, & angry.
You were the one that came to an atheist site preaching your so-called " good news " &
outright dismissed others for not agreeing with you; then you try to belittle them by calling them
names ... to include me.
You are the one go cast the first stone, I simply responded in kind.
And you were the one treating others as you wanted to be treated.
And show me anywhere in my posts that I told you to " go to hell." I know you're talking about me.
Would you please be so kind to find that, and quote it for me?
If you know anything about religion as you say you do, then you would've known what I said to you.

In a post marked 1/23/12, 12:47 & I'll let you fill in the blank.
________, if you read only one book even if that books about human brains, or the Big Bang. Theory,
or about Evolution, you won't learn much.
Here you have another dilapidated situation, Dumphrey.
This statement implies that you dismiss scientific evidence in favor of your brand of, agnosticism?
No. What I ment to say was your religious creed. Sorry.
After all, that's what you study, is it not?
And thus far you haven't proven that to be the case either.

So. You suggest we reread the article again with your, " thoughtfully & critically badge of rubbish?
We've already read it.
But perhaps you need to read it again?

Then you accused us of, catching your virus?
Of having your religion?
Not likely. Not collecting stamps is not a hobby. Sorry.
And where's your proof to that accusation by the way.? I mean, really?

And now you're accusing us of chastising you, as if you've had the same treatment as, Jessica?
Really? You attack & then play the martyr?

Your words speak a multitude about yourself.
That's called a ( bait strategy, ) & I wouldn't recommend it. Nor am I fooled by it.

Your just an angry little apologist who seeks revenge against A.A. & other organizations going
after those that had threats to Jessica.

Oh. One more thing.
If you'd ever had taken the time & your nose out of that Babble study long enough, you'd have known that a ( synthetic life.form ) has already been created.
Goodbye theist

Cerberus

MisanthropicScott, I agree there is no proof that there is, or there ever was a God or Gods. However it doesn't bother me if someone else wants to believe that there are. ALL I am concerned about are peoples day to day actions, how they treat their fellow man especially those that don't believe what they believe, or those that are different,because they are homosexual rather than heterosexual, liberal rather than conservative,..... It isn't what religion you follow or whether you follow any, it is what you do, how you put your beliefs or knowledge into practice. There are "good" Christians and "good" Atheists, "good" Muslims, Hindus, Jews, Wiccans, Buddhists, and many folks that aren't so "good", religious and non-religious alike.

AND sometimes it is important to deny bullys access to public forums, IF that is you want to keep the forum open to reasonable and responsible open discussion of ideas.

Good point.
You're banned.