On the Cross Case

I agree. It's obvious what the cross was being used for. To even pretend it was anything else is just plain idiotic. Separation of church and state is essential. Many people, not just Christians, are from different backgrounds and religions and were all effected by this day. Even if the victims were only of a certain religion, it still has more complicated meaning to it other than from just a religious standpoint. This affected us as a nation and it should be treated as such. Christianity doesn't define us as a whole but many others are blind to the fact in thinking so. I can only hope that this is resolved soon and that it's changed immediately to a neutral memorial.

Let the crazy people have their stupid cross. Do something worth while with the money.

Two things;

1.) This country was not founded on religion. It was first a place where you could find refuge from the Angelican Church & Monarch. You could practice whatever religion you felt was necessary without fear the Monarch would arrest you or punish you for choosing the wrong religion. And in the time of the pilgrimage, the religion that pilgrims chose to follow was christian based. This country was a refuge, not a religiously formed nation. Enter the founding fathers, who wanted to ensure that we were free to practice religion or not.

2.) Christians need to understand, if they find hope in a symbol that is deemed of one religion, in a free society where you are able to be of a religion or not, then they should place that symbol somewhere were they can pray over it and love it. But it should not be in a public location, it should be in a place of worship out of respect for those who do not identify with it or feel the same hope that this particular group of Christians feel. They should try to look at it as an act of respect of all Americans.

Should there be some sort of tribute to those lives lost? Yes! But just because it doesn't say the words God Bless in it or Jesus, does not make it any less important. Should we get rid of this religious symbol? No, but it should go to a local place of worship in NY. If a local New York place of worship were to acquire this religious symbol and give it a place of reverence for those who are believers to find solace and contentment through it, then it will serve its purpose as a beacon of hope through Christianity.

I don't believe there should be only one representation of a single religion that's for sure. However, I don't agree that something needs to be included for the secular "community." I even hate that phrasing...community. I dislike everything about most religions...the belief of some mythical fairy, the mindless thinking of everyone in their little cults, and fanatical devotion making sure they get their way. Don't turn someone's *lack* of a religion into essentially a type of religion.

If they want to honor all the religions that suffered that day, let them do it. I'm not religious - it's my choice. I wouldn't need or want included in that aspect of the museum.

Danielle, the important thing is that SOMETHING be included for the atheist/secular community, and that the Christian community stop automatically assuming that THEIR desires are the only ones that matter, and that the rest of us are second-class citizens.

Some people insist on seeing this as attention-whoring by atheists, using this tragedy as a way to get noticed. But it's exactly the opposite -- it's a demand that these others stop using every tragedy as attention-whoring for Christianity.

Agreed pilrlr, and could not have said it better myself.
Let the one's that have lost so much from the terrorist's actions put this behind them. Think about it like this. If you had lost some one in any of the events that took place that day. How would it make you feel every time it was displayed in the news.

Statistically speaking a lot of those people were religious. Why does that part of them need to be recognized? In the grand scheme of things they were all human beings going about their very different lives. It's the truly common bond and the reason victims, survivors, and first responders were there that day. The same is true at the Pentagon. If you've never been to the Pentagon Memorial, you should make a point to visit. It isn't just a 'crappy sign' and I doubt you'd find anyone offended by it. It's rich with symbolism, honoring and celebrating the lives of those that died on that day. It's plenty proof that a memorial can be a significant, powerful thing, without introducing religion.

What would you propose to represent the atheists? What of those that lost their lives in this tragedy that WERE religious, do you honestly think that there should be absolutely no religious symbol at the memorial and just ignore a large part of who some of those people were?

How about the new memorial be a sign, "thousands of people lost their lives here and all they got was this crappy sign to remember them". I'm sure that would offend somebody too, EVERYTHING will offend SOMEBODY out there.

The problem I have with a "suitable and respectful display" is if it takes on the shape or icon of anything. I saw in one of the multiple news articles (not quoted) that possibly even an "atom" symbol could be used.

I'm an American. I'm an Atheist. But that doesn't mean that I automatically support the organization American Atheists. That little atom logo is the symbol of an organization, and doesn't represent "atheists." Sure, it represents *some* atheists but not the majority.

Just as it is presumptuous for the museum to put up a Christian cross, so is it presumptuous for an organization to decide what would be deemed an appropriate representation for atheists.

Good on you guys. It's absolutely shameful to use a national tragedy to push a religious agenda.

I am a Christian. I love God, and His Son Jesus Christ. At the great and final judgement when we all stand before God, He will be our judge. We will have to give an account for everything that we have said and done, or have thought. This is in His Word, the Bible. Just because you don't believe in Him, or anything that I have stated, doesn't mean it's not true. You can't change the facts. It will happen. Then, there will be no separation of church and state. Then, you will know, and you will believe. Only then, for you, it will be too late to change. Now's your chance to make a different choice, before it's too late. By the way, if you study history, our founding fathers believed in God, and our nation was set up as a nation to serve Him. That is why they came here in the first place. This is why you have the freedom to believe as you do. Your belief though is creating for yourself a slow suicide. I like to think that there really is no such thing as an atheist. Because, "In order for someone to say that they don't believe in God, there has to be a God for them not to believe in." You might want to think about that for awhile. I'm praying for you.

Isn't your atom A symbol a religious representation? It represents your belief, with or without God, right? Doesn't it represent a group of people who have a common belief? In your case, you just simply don't believe in God. It is just another religion which doesn't have God or any superior super nature things...etc.

What makes you differ than other religious groups?

Most importantly, please remove the atom symbol from your group. As a physicist, I found it extremely offensive when someone trying to use a completely unrelated atom symbol for their religious use. I found it extremely offensive to my children, friends, and family.

It is a shame that there are those who use this type of situation to push their anti religious sentiments by using the courts. What a waste of tax payers money. It doesn't even LOOK like a cross. What type of symbol would you like? Maybe a picture of the devil? While I don't go to Church, or worship any type of "religion", I do believe in a "higher" being. I also think it's sad that "atheists" are pushing their agenda onto our beliefs. I am insulted that you don't want "god" or prayer in schools. Maybe if there was, kids wouldn't be killing each other, or building bombs to blow up innocent people. And your comment "we seek only fairness"! That sir, is a joke. You seek the attention and limelight. Disgusting.

Oh yes, good luck in Utah. The Church of Latter Day Saints will crush you like a bug.

I am unfamiliar with if the federal, state, local government or a corporation owns the memorial. If it is private property then the lawsuit has no basis and should be tossed out. The establishment clause does not apply to private property. If it is public land then anyone wanting to donate icons to the memorial should be allowed to do so. The establishment clause requires EQUALITY of ACCESS. Why is this concept so hard for so many to understand?

I used to be religious, before I grew up and got to high school and college level science classes but this concern over a cross being used as a memorial is just asinine, people can't do a nice thing anymore without pissing off somebody else and its getting ridiculous.
This case should be thrown out because Dave Silverman doesn't actually give a damn about non-Christians being represented he's just being a jackass and doesn't want the symbol there to be a cross for the obvious association to Christianity whether it's meant to be or not.

This is getting VERY interesting so I have some comments and questions.
Is there a God? I've never seen one and I don't know if Science could ever prove it one way or another.
Is Religion really that significant? Damn right it is, as a matter of fact Religion has been a force of Government control, or moreover of PEOPLE control since the first organized communities.
Who started Religion? Long before Chritianity was ever a force, there was Religion. Who started it? You got me there, I don't think any one person can take the credit or blame. It's suggested that it was a way to explain what seemed to happen without provocation or reason.
Why is there Religion? Why was it invented? I don't know what may have been going on in someone's mind at the time, but as far back as history tells us, there were practices that were meant to effect daily life and some thought it actually worked. (wish for, hope for, or pray for results like rain or a good hunt)
Is there anything good about religion? I'm glad you asked. There is some good that can be said, that Religion has given us a way to go about our lives in unity with our fellow humans. Modern Organized Religion is a business and an arm in politics. (Religion was the first organized form of government and was also the reason for the birth of science) Religions have grown to become more seperate of each other, even over time they have gone to war against each other. The more passive Religions were wiped out or converted.
That sounds bad, what else can you say about Religion....
Organized Religion has it's hands on just about everything. Even the non-Relgious groups want their "cut of the pie" and are even set up the same way as not-for-profit organizations, accepting donations, effecting politics and world or public affairs.
Like he said, "it's all or nothing", and if all aren't represented than none should be. Unfortunately, this foray into the courts with very little merit and only a chance to argue state and federal law, I don't see anybody coming out a winner. Millions of taxpayers dollars, both religious and non-religious, will be wasted. Millions of Americans will be "poisoned" by the whole affair, some will side with one and some the other, there can be no winners here.

Were there any Hindu, Jain, or Buddhist victims?

If so, then the 9/11 memorial should also have a SWASTIKA of an equal size as the cross. The SWASTIKA is the most important symbol for Hiindus, Jains, and Buddhists and have similar significance as the Christian cross.

Please advocate for a SWASTIKA to be installed in addition to the Christian cross and the Star of David.

I really wish this organization would stop suing people over this kind of thing. If Christians want a cross on their memorial, then let them have the cross. If ground zero includes symbology that represents every single faith (or non-faith) of the people who died, then clearly that would still be separation of church and state (since no single religion was being singled out/promoted).

I think instead of suing people and furthering the vitriol against atheists in the US, we need to find ways to make folks accept or point of view. I can tolerate anyone else's faith, as long as they tolerate my lack of faith. If people want to pray, let them pray. Just don't force me to - that's all I ask.

"...what was your stance on the proposed mosque that was to be near ground zero?"

That they were in their total and absolute Freedom of Religion to build their mosque on private land with no government money. And that is exactly the case. It is private property owned and paid for by private funds: that is Freedom of Religion.

We may think Islam is just as goofy as Christianity, but that doesn't mean we don't respect Freedom of Religion as guaranteed by the Constitution. It's the same reason there is a church right across the street from Ground Zero. But I guess the mosque-haters who have no clue about the Constitution didn't care about the church being near Ground Zero...

This is in response to my fellow atheists who have expressed concern that this lawsuit will make us more of a hated minority than we already are.

Here's the deal. Whether or not we file this or any other suit, the religious majority will still hate us. They hate us because of what we ARE, not what we DO. They hate the fact that we exist without reliance on a mythical sky being and their outrage over this suit is just their latest excuse. If it wasn't this, it would be something else.

The WTC memorial is by Americans, for Americans. That's ALL Americans, not just the powerful majority. A serious, thoughtful, secular memorial is necessary to ensure this is a place of reflection for all who chose to visit and honor our dead.

The religious majority will never be happy with our minority unless we are silent and hidden so that they can pretend we don't exist. I have no intention of ever being silent or hidden, or intimidated by their threats in the real world or their feeble threats of godly retribution after death.

BTW, while American Atheists does not have any obligation to provide any sort of speech zone (free or otherwise) to the fundy hoard, I've lately approved some of the religious posts that have made it to this blog, mostly for our general entertainment. If you AA regulars would rather I didn't put any through, let me know. Honestly, though, you should see some of the ones that were deleted (wow...)

Kathleen Johnson

a. A statement is made that there were a lot of others professing other faiths including 33% atheists. Question: why did only a 'cross' survived - a mark of indestructible?

b. From the foregoing argument - the intention is not to honour a particular group of people, but put on display an item that belonged to someone who died in the incident and survived.

c. Atheists, by definition do not believe in anything sublime force or authority - their belief and concept is 'voidness' and they believe in only themselves. Therefore the atheists are well represented not having anything to represent them.

d. A memorial is essentially a retention of memory. What can recall the memory of the tragedy than the item that was present in the tragedy, yet survived - the only one so far!

e. To those who stated America is not based on religion and has claimed authority on American history - you would have missed the below. They are quoted below hoping you recognise them in American History! Source of information is included should they require authentication.

James Madison
4th U.S. President
"Cursed be all that learning that is contrary to the cross of Christ."
--America's Providential History, p. 93.

George Washington

1st U.S. President
"While we are zealously performing the duties of good citizens and soldiers, we certainly ought not to be inattentive to the higher duties of religion. To the distinguished character of Patriot, it should be our highest glory to add the more distinguished character of Christian."
--The Writings of Washington, pp. 342-343.

John Adams
2nd U.S. President and Signer of the Declaration of Independence
"Suppose a nation in some distant Region should take the Bible for their only law Book, and every member should regulate his conduct by the precepts there exhibited! Every member would be obliged in conscience, to temperance, frugality, and industry; to justice, kindness, and charity towards his fellow men; and to piety, love, and reverence toward Almighty God ... What a Eutopia, what a Paradise would this region be."
--Diary and Autobiography of John Adams, Vol. III, p. 9.

"The general principles on which the fathers achieved independence were the general principles of Christianity. I will avow that I then believed, and now believe, that those general principles of Christianity are as eternal and immutable as the existence and attributes of God."

--Adams wrote this on June 28, 1813, in a letter to Thomas Jefferson.
"The second day of July, 1776, will be the most memorable epoch in the history of America. I am apt to believe that it will be celebrated by succeeding generations as the great anniversary Festival. It ought to be commemorated, as the Day of Deliverance, by solemn acts of devotion to God Almighty. It ought to be solemnized with pomp and parade, with shows, games, sports, guns, bells, bonfires and illuminations, from one end of this continent to the other, from this time forward forever."
--Adams wrote this in a letter to his wife, Abigail, on July 3, 1776.

Thomas Jefferson
3rd U.S. President, Drafter and Signer of the Declaration of Independence
"God who gave us life gave us liberty. And can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are of the Gift of God? That they are not to be violated but with His wrath? Indeed, I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just; that His justice cannot sleep forever; That a revolution of the wheel of fortune, a change of situation, is among possible events; that it may become probable by Supernatural influence! The Almighty has no attribute which can take side with us in that event."
--Notes on the State of Virginia, Query XVIII, p. 237.

"I am a real Christian – that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus Christ."
--The Writings of Thomas Jefferson, p. 385.

Thomas Jefferson
3rd U.S. President, Drafter and Signer of the Declaration of Independence
"God who gave us life gave us liberty. And can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are of the Gift of God? That they are not to be violated but with His wrath? Indeed, I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just; that His justice cannot sleep forever; That a revolution of the wheel of fortune, a change of situation, is among possible events; that it may become probable by Supernatural influence! The Almighty has no attribute which can take side with us in that event."
--Notes on the State of Virginia, Query XVIII, p. 237.

"I am a real Christian – that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus Christ."
--The Writings of Thomas Jefferson, p. 385.

John Hancock
1st Signer of the Declaration of Independence
"Resistance to tyranny becomes the Christian and social duty of each individual. ... Continue steadfast and, with a proper sense of your dependence on God, nobly defend those rights which heaven gave, and no man ought to take from us."
--History of the United States of America, Vol. II, p. 229.

Benjamin Franklin
Signer of the Declaration of Independence and Unites States Constitution
"Here is my Creed. I believe in one God, the Creator of the Universe. That He governs it by His Providence. That He ought to be worshipped.
That the most acceptable service we render to him is in doing good to his other children. That the soul of man is immortal, and will be treated with justice in another life respecting its conduct in this. These I take to be the fundamental points in all sound religion, and I regard them as you do in whatever sect I meet with them.

As to Jesus of Nazareth, my opinion of whom you particularly desire, I think the system of morals and his religion, as he left them to us, is the best the world ever saw, or is likely to see; But I apprehend it has received various corrupting changes, and I have, with most of the present dissenters in England, some doubts as to his divinity; though it is a question I do not dogmatize upon, having never studied it, and think it needless to busy myself with it now, when I expect soon an opportunity of knowing the truth with less trouble. I see no harm, however, in its being believed, if that belief has the good consequence, as probably it has, of making his doctrines more respected and more observed; especially as I do not perceive, that the Supreme takes it amiss, by distinguishing the unbelievers in his government of the world with any peculiar marks of his displeasure."
--Benjamin Franklin wrote this in a letter to Ezra Stiles, President of Yale University on March 9, 1790.

Samuel Adams
Signer of the Declaration of Independence and Father of the American Revolution
"And as it is our duty to extend our wishes to the happiness of the great family of man, I conceive that we cannot better express ourselves than by humbly supplicating the Supreme Ruler of the world that the rod of tyrants may be broken to pieces, and the oppressed made free again; that wars may cease in all the earth, and that the confusions that are and have been among nations may be overruled by promoting and speedily bringing on that holy and happy period when the kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ may be everywhere established, and all people everywhere willingly bow to the sceptre of Him who is Prince of Peace."
--As Governor of Massachusetts, Proclamation of a Day of Fast, March 20, 1797.

James Madison
4th U.S. President
"Cursed be all that learning that is contrary to the cross of Christ."
--America's Providential History, p. 93.

James Monroe
5th U.S. President
"When we view the blessings with which our country has been favored, those which we now enjoy, and the means which we possess of handing them down unimpaired to our latest posterity, our attention is irresistibly drawn to the source from whence they flow. Let us then, unite in offering our most grateful acknowledgments for these blessings to the Divine Author of All Good."
--Monroe made this statement in his 2nd Annual Message to Congress, November 16, 1818.

John Quincy Adams
6th U.S. President
"The hope of a Christian is inseparable from his faith. Whoever believes in the divine inspiration of the Holy Scriptures must hope that the religion of Jesus shall prevail throughout the earth. Never since the foundation of the world have the prospects of mankind been more encouraging to that hope than they appear to be at the present time. And may the associated distribution of the Bible proceed and prosper till the Lord shall have made 'bare His holy arm in the eyes of all the nations, and all the ends of the earth shall see the salvation of our God' (Isaiah 52:10)."
--Life of John Quincy Adams, p. 248.

William Penn
Founder of Pennsylvania
"I do declare to the whole world that we believe the Scriptures to contain a declaration of the mind and will of God in and to those ages in which they were written; being given forth by the Holy Ghost moving in the hearts of holy men of God; that they ought also to be read, believed, and fulfilled in our day; being used for reproof and instruction, that the man of God may be perfect. They are a declaration and testimony of heavenly things themselves, and, as such, we carry a high respect for them. We accept them as the words of God Himself."
--Treatise of the Religion of the Quakers, p. 355.

Roger Sherman
Signer of the Declaration of Independence and United States Constitution
"I believe that there is one only living and true God, existing in three persons, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost, the same in substance equal in power and glory. That the scriptures of the old and new testaments are a revelation from God, and a complete rule to direct us how we may glorify and enjoy him. That God has foreordained whatsoever comes to pass, so as thereby he is not the author or approver of sin. That he creates all things, and preserves and governs all creatures and all their actions, in a manner perfectly consistent with the freedom of will in moral agents, and the usefulness of means. That he made man at first perfectly holy, that the first man sinned, and as he was the public head of his posterity, they all became sinners in consequence of his first transgression, are wholly indisposed to that which is good and inclined to evil, and on account of sin are liable to all the miseries of this life, to death, and to the pains of hell forever.
I believe that God having elected some of mankind to eternal life, did send his own Son to become man, die in the room and stead of sinners and thus to lay a foundation for the offer of pardon and salvation to all mankind, so as all may be saved who are willing to accept the gospel offer: also by his special grace and spirit, to regenerate, sanctify and enable to persevere in holiness, all who shall be saved; and to procure in consequence of their repentance and faith in himself their justification by virtue of his atonement as the only meritorious cause.

I believe a visible church to be a congregation of those who make a credible profession of their faith in Christ, and obedience to him, joined by the bond of the covenant.

I believe that the souls of believers are at their death made perfectly holy, and immediately taken to glory: that at the end of this world there will be a resurrection of the dead, and a final judgement of all mankind, when the righteous shall be publicly acquitted by Christ the Judge and admitted to everlasting life and glory, and the wicked be sentenced to everlasting punishment."
--The Life of Roger Sherman, pp. 272-273.

Benjamin Rush
Signer of the Declaration of Independence and Ratifier of the U.S. Constitution
"The gospel of Jesus Christ prescribes the wisest rules for just conduct in every situation of life. Happy they who are enabled to obey them in all situations!"
--The Autobiography of Benjamin Rush, pp. 165-166.

"Christianity is the only true and perfect religion, and that in proportion as mankind adopts its principles and obeys its precepts, they will be wise and happy."
--Essays, Literary, Moral, and Philosophical, published in 1798.

"I know there is an objection among many people to teaching children doctrines of any kind, because they are liable to be controverted. But let us not be wiser than our Maker.

If moral precepts alone could have reformed mankind, the mission of the Son of God into all the world would have been unnecessary. The perfect morality of the gospel rests upon the doctrine which, though often controverted has never been refuted: I mean the vicarious life and death of the Son of God."
--Essays, Literary, Moral, and Philosophical, published in 1798.
John Witherspoon

Signer of the Declaration of Independence, Clergyman and President of Princeton University
"While we give praise to God, the Supreme Disposer of all events, for His interposition on our behalf, let us guard against the dangerous error of trusting in, or boasting of, an arm of flesh ... If your cause is just, if your principles are pure, and if your conduct is prudent, you need not fear the multitude of opposing hosts.

What follows from this? That he is the best friend to American liberty, who is most sincere and active in promoting true and undefiled religion, and who sets himself with the greatest firmness to bear down profanity and immorality of every kind.

Whoever is an avowed enemy of God, I scruple not to call him an enemy of his country."
--Sermon at Princeton University, "The Dominion of Providence over the Passions of Men," May 17, 1776.

Alexander Hamilton
Signer of the Declaration of Independence and Ratifier of the U.S. Constitution
"I have carefully examined the evidences of the Christian religion, and if I was sitting as a juror upon its authenticity I would unhesitatingly give my verdict in its favor. I can prove its truth as clearly as any proposition ever submitted to the mind of man."
--Famous American Statesmen, p. 126.

Patrick Henry
Ratifier of the U.S. Constitution
"It cannot be emphasized too strongly or too often that this great nation was founded, not by religionists, but by Christians; not on religions, but on the gospel of Jesus Christ. For this very reason peoples of other faiths have been afforded asylum, prosperity, and freedom of worship here."
--The Trumpet Voice of Freedom: Patrick Henry of Virginia, p. iii.
"The Bible ... is a book worth more than all the other books that were ever printed."
--Sketches of the Life and Character of Patrick Henry, p. 402.

John Jay
1st Chief Justice of the U.S. Supreme Court and President of the American Bible Society
"By conveying the Bible to people thus circumstanced, we certainly do them a most interesting kindness. We thereby enable them to learn that man was originally created and placed in a state of happiness, but, becoming disobedient, was subjected to the degradation and evils which he and his posterity have since experienced.

The Bible will also inform them that our gracious Creator has provided for us a Redeemer, in whom all the nations of the earth shall be blessed; that this Redeemer has made atonement "for the sins of the whole world," and thereby reconciling the Divine justice with the Divine mercy has opened a way for our redemption and salvation; and that these inestimable benefits are of the free gift and grace of God, not of our deserving, nor in our power to deserve."
--In God We Trust—The Religious Beliefs and Ideas of the American Founding Fathers, p. 379.

"In forming and settling my belief relative to the doctrines of Christianity, I adopted no articles from creeds but such only as, on careful examination, I found to be confirmed by the Bible."
--American Statesman Series, p. 360.

Undoubtedly the present America is not the founding father have envisaged an initiated.