Cities Need Cash: Fees for All... Even Churches

Good response Mr. Scott. I get tired of my fellow Christians claiming to be persecuted in the USA. I know that it's a possibility that one day we will be, I even see where some people on this blog even would be anxious to do so... but today we don't know persecution in this country. We've enjoyed great influence here for nearly over 4 centuries so when that influence wanes many of us scream out "TYRANT! PERSECUTOR!"

It's silly.

I've been places where real religious persecution happens and it ain't here.... like Tyranny, it may be here one day, but it ain't here now and people kill their own arguments when they say that it is.

So, confiscation of property through the threat of violence is not considered 'actual' tyranny.

Really, you stay out of politics? When all of these issues are debated and decided within the political arena? American Atheists has a whole web page titled "politics". It speaks out in support of and against political candidates. We're really supposed to believe that this blog has nothing to do with politics?

Well, I think that what geoih is getting at is that the fee is his personal property so since the gov't requires him to pay it that it is tyranny.

Sometimes I'll see conservatives or religious people on the news and I'll think "get off of my side" because they jump to use reasoning like this... taxes and fees equal tyranny? I don't think so but saying that really kills the argument. Then when real tyranny comes you're not left with anything to say that will get any notice. It's like the boy who cried wolf.

Anyway Mr. Scott, we deal with this same nonprofit issue with work in the political world too. Personally, I think that AA and The Church should be able to promote political candidates, parties and whatever. I know that in a round about way it adds up to gov't subsidy of a politician because of the tax exempt status, but I still think that you and I should both be able to bring politicians in to our meetings and let them speak.

Quote from Blair Scott: "Weren’t we talking about a fee? Whose property has been confiscated in this story?"

The property of those being forced to pay a "fee" (a tax) under threat of violence.

Quote from Blair Scott: "There is politics and there is Politics."

Shaving it rather thin, I think. Of course saying that mandatory state "fees" are not taxes probably falls into the same category.

Quote from Dane: "… taxes and fees equal tyranny? I don’t think so but saying that really kills the argument."

As with crime, there are degrees of tyranny. Tell me what happens if you don't pay some "fee" or tax levied by the state?

Simply because there is some token service, supposedly supplied because of the tax, and the tax is small enough that most people simply pay it rather than risk an violent encounter with the state, does not change what it is.

If some vendor deliberately charges me more than the agreed upon price, which I discover this later and decide it isn't worth my while to pursue recompense, it is still a crime. Acquiescing to it does not change that fact.

goeith, What I find hard to believe is that you've popped up with an argument that actually posits Mr. Scott and me on the same side. I get the hair-splitting hyperbole you are using in order to attract attention to your statement, but "tyranny" is really an overstatement. When you use words like that you are killing your own argument. Even people who agree with you that the gov't shouldn't charge this fee will abandon you because they don't want to be associated with such a big overstatement.

Using "tyranny" makes you sound like a whack-job, and people who agree with you but don't want to be seen as a whack-job will abandon you.

One of my favorite writers and pseudo-theologians, C.S. Lewis once said, "Don't use words too big for the subject. Don't say "infinitely" when you mean "very"; otherwise you'll have no word left when you want to talk about something really infinite."

You will do yourself a favor by taking his advice.

Quote from Dane: "Using “tyranny” makes you sound like a whack-job, and people who agree with you but don’t want to be seen as a whack-job will abandon you."

Well, you certainly wouldn't want to be associated with "whack-jobs". To use your logic, why would there be any discussion at American Atheists about things like "under god" in the pledge of allegiance, or "In god we trust" as a national motto, or the posting of meaningless biblical texts on the walls of courthouses. All these actions result in much of the population considering such advocates to be "whack-jobs".

I'm arguing about real coercive threats of violence being perpetrated by the state. Personally, I'm against coercive threats of violence. When done by an individual, it's generally considered a crime. When done systematically by the state, I consider it tyranny. I take this position even when the tyranny is directed against somebody I don't generally agree with (e.g., a church). Apparently, that makes you uncomfortable enough to call me a "whack-job". Perhaps you could put together a more logical argument against my position beyond name calling.

geoih,

I'm not calling you a whack-job. You may actually be a very intelligent, reasonable person. I'm just saying that your use of the word tyranny makes you seem like a whack-job and defeats your argument.

For the record, I tell the same thing to atheists and theists who do the same thing. I have religious friends why scream about how they are being persecuted because a store says, "Happy Holidays" or "Season's Greetings" instead of "Merry Christmas."

A steak dinner is an awesome thing... unless the waiter grabs it and tries to cram the whole thing down your throat all at once.

Uh./... I meant, "Well, Mr. Scott".... "Scoot" was a typo, sorry.

Like I’ve told my religious friends on this issue, “It just ain’t that simple.”

Religious institutes constantly make bank. So yeah, it's a binary equation.

When Katrina came and devastated the Coast, while the Federal Gov’t was running around like their butts were on fire, it was the churches and para-church organizations that rose up and delivered.

Seeing as how the hurricane hit the religious district the hardest, well, there's your answer.

I’ve heard some atheists make out like we hold the baked chicken in our hands and scream out, “CONVERT OR STARVE!!!”

The Salvation Army does that sometimes.

On another note, I come down on a more libertarian side whenever a gov’t decides to institute new taxes, fees, or whatever for things like this.

Yes because paying taxes to share things is....OMZ! Socialist!

"Yes, when we provide those services we talk about our beliefs, but legitimate churches NEVER make that a condition of receiving that aid"

When my wife was in college, there was this church across the street from her building that gave free lunches to anyone who wanted it(not just for the needy.) We had lunch there several times a week. I'm atheist, and she's Buddhist. Neither of us had any intention of giving Christianity a second thought, we just wanted the free food (which was usually very good!).

I have to back-up what you're saying here too... none of them gave us a hard time about it. They let us know that they would talk about Christianity if we were interested, but that was it. We said "no thanks" and there was never any pressure at all, even after it was obvious we were just going for the free food.

I can't say this represents ALL missions like this, but this particular church did exactly as you described.

We had lunch there several times a week. I’m atheist, and she’s Buddhist. Neither of us had any intention of giving Christianity a second thought, we just wanted the free food (which was usually very good!).

Most mammals develop positive associations in conjunction w/food. They call themselves fishers of men, & food works spectacularly w/people.

Yep. Peter was a fisherman so Jesus used symbols that were familiar to him. The fishing for men isn't unique to the Church. Television advertisements, Billboards and all sorts of things are used to fish for men in one way or another.

Anyway Skooter, I appreciate your response. In all honesty there are places that manipulate the needs of the people in order to try to extort a conversion out of someone. This varies sometimes based on the educational level of the leadership but that's not an absolute thing. Sometimes it varied based on denominational beliefs. Some denominations are gunning for a quick prayer and then they say "You're in!" These are usually the ones who do things like preach a sermon before they have the meal because they have a captive audience. The homeless mission here in Mobile does that a lot. A friend of mine was a director there and when a guy came down to the altar he asked the guy why he was here.

The guy said, "Because we know you won't feed us until someone gets saved and today is my turn to come down."

My friend is a Reformed theologian so he doesn't believe in the whole "say a prayer and you're in" deal so he quit doing it that way. In his defense he thought he was doing good, but we all learn and grow.

EITHER WAY, my position on that whole thing is "at least they were feeding the men, even if they required someone to say a prayer to feed them." I don't agree in extorting prayer, but I do agree with them feeding the men.

The mission isn't a church so it has to have 501(3)c status, but if it were a church the fact that they are providing a service free of a monetary charge to the recipient is still a valid community service regardless of their religious practices.

This is one way that churches defend their tax exempt status. They are tax exempt, but they also provide a valuable service to the community. In reality, a LOT of churches do nearly nothing for anyone outside of their own group, but this is the idea.

Many atheists attack the tax exempt status of churches by comparing them to every other business who pays taxes, but this doesn't balance. The grocery store is not providing services to the community at no cost to the community... they are selling groceries.

When my church buys a bus ticket for a traveler to get to another city for a job we do not charge him for that. Right now, in the woods behind the church I'm ordained through there is a homeless camp of about 40 people. The church doesn't have the room to house them, but they go out and feed them, give them camping equipment and supplies,,, free of charge, so that comparison just doesn't apply.

Yes.. there are churches with a lot of money in the bank, but that money was given through donations just like the Red Cross or the Boy Scouts get money. It wasn't earned through from profit. The money paid to staff people of the church is taxed just like any income is taxed. When the church does sell something in retail like a book or DVD or something then sales taxes are paid on it just like any retail store.

The church Im ordained through sells DVDs of the service. When you buy one you are charged sales tax. Churches pay taxes just like any non-profit.