SALT LAKE CITY (ABC 4 News) – The U.S. 10th Circuit Court of Appeals in Denver has overturned a decision that allowed the display of roadside crosses in honor of Utah Highway Patrol troopers who have fallen in the line of duty.The 10th Circuit Court also ordered Judge David Sam to order the crosses removed. Sam ruled in favor of the UHP crosses in November of 2007, saying the crosses did not represent a religious symbol, but a proper memorial.
This win is particularly sweet, although we are going to get dragged through the mud for this one.
The Utah Highway Patrol had a policy that allowed ONLY 12-foot-tall crosses as roadside memorials for fallen officers. The reason they used only crosses, they asserted, was that crosses were not Christian, that in fact they are secular.
Right. Like a Jew, a Muslim, and an Atheist would want a big cross as a memorial to them.
I will be on Fox News tomorrow on “Happening Now” at 11am to talk about this. I will be in the unfortunate situation of going up against fallen cops, for whom I have the deepest respect. However, no matter how much respect I have for fallen officers, I must remind the UHP that the fact that these officers died does not give the UHP the right to break the Constitution (for which the officers died in the first place). Indeed, some might allege that certain Christians were using these fallen officers as a method to secularize the cross — a truly repugnant but very real possibility.
Religious discrimination is just that. Equal access is just that. If the state of Utah wants crosses on their roadsides, they have to allow other religious and secular symbols too. Allowing ONLY crosses with the justification that crosses aren’t Christian is against the law, and we hope the UHP will erect proper memorials to her fallen officers that respect the diversity of the police force and the population of this country.
I am sure you will do fine.Hopefully the supreme court will uphold the appeals court decision.I hope you can get in that they are free to erect crosses on private property using private money.And that this is not some ambush the atheist broadcast.
You must be proud, more morons with to much time on your hands. The people who protect you from harm and give their lives nice job, your parents should be proud of you…..
Do road crosses actually help the people who protected us from harm and gave their lives in the line of duty? Are we hurting them in some way by requesting the enforcement of our country’s laws regarding public land? Is violating the law a proper way to salute police officers?
the beehive on that cross in not in remembrance of the fallen troopers, it’s a reminder that all Mormons are bees in a hive benefiting the religion/state only… check out the religious symbolism of the beehive on a cross, the LDS are defaming there memories by saying they dried out after they lost there stingers.. they stole it from the free masons, after they where forced to flee in to the desert for snatching 14 year old girls in the south in the 1800′s.
Oh, cool =) Yay for a win for reason and the 1st amendment!
remain steadfast Dave….fox will stoop low and try to paint you as not sympathetic to the loss of these patrol men and women…..which has nothing to do with keeping church and state separate…..
of course we are sympathetic, have compassion and know empathy…..what these evangelicals dont realize is, is that if they were to have their righteous bullshit way today….tomorrow their sugar and flour trading church wives could be wearing burqas…..
Law of Polarity: The Law of Polarity, which states that (1) anything can be split into two wholly opposite characteristics; and (2) each of these polar elements contains the potentiality of the other within its essence. A key phrase to remember is: “Everything contains its opposite.” ATHEISM IS A RELIGION!!
If atheism is a religion, is disbelief in unicorns a mythological belief?
If Atheism is a religion, then what do you call it when someone has no religion? We’re that. No need to attach anything more to that, because you already have.
I know it hurts to find someone who hasn’t got that monkey on the back, but lying about them doesn’t bring them into your fold. It reminds us of why we avoid religion. Thanks for the reminder.
Dear DragonWeard
Atheism shouldn’t even have a word other than real or normal.
Should there be an ADragonist because people believe in dragons?
This is a just a word coined by the feeble minded god believers.
Obviously you’re too young. I can tell by the word Everything.
Always is almost always wrong. Never is almost never right.
And everything. Come one. How naive is that?
Have you looked at everything to know that everything has an opposite?
This is a board for people who have crossed the level into intelligence.
I’ve got to disagree here. While there may be times when the line that is supposed to separate church and state gets a bit blurry, and people from BOTH sides need to step in and make changes, this instance is not one of those times.
As I understand it, the UHPA, is an group made up of State Troopers and family members all to support the officers in various ways (much like the USO does with our military). They put up the crosses, using private funds, and with PERMISSION from the dead officers families. If the dead officers were Jewish, or Muslim, or atheist an appropriate symbol could have been used, as stated by the UHPA.
So where is the problem here??? The crosses are on public land? So what!? Read our first amendment, freedom of speech and freedom OF religion (not freedom FROM religion). If the state had done it themselves, that’s one thing, but when private citizens do it, that’s something else. Even if its on public land, so long as they got the proper permission. The first amendment doesn’t protect your vulnerable little eyes from the very sight of anything religiously related.
What’s next? Are you going to try to get all the crosses and stars of david chiseled of the tombstones at Arlington National Cemetery??? That IS actually government affiliated. It’s administered by the Department of the Army. All this is, in both instances, is a reflection of the honored dead’s own personal religious beliefs; unless you have some evidence that one or more of the dead Utah officers was not a Christian and so would not have wanted to be honored with a cross? I kind of doubt that but would like to hear about it if that were the case.
Again, I will point out that I’m atheist myself. I think anti-establishment laws, and separation of church and state are vitally important to our nation, but use common sense people. This is a non-issue, save your fight for the things that are truly important.
Suppose members of my religion felt the need to be recognized by putting the crashed car or other privately purchased trash on the freeway median. Would this be acceptable? Do grieving families get to decide what debris is put in our freeway medians, parks, or public buildings? Suppose the next religion requires a billboard to properly memorialize their dead. Suppose the family of a dead postal employee wants to erect a shrine in the post office. Is there a line?
The crosses are obstructions that interfere with mowing, debris removal, and drainage when the crosses wash into drain pipes and form clogs. They impose taxpayer cost and distract motorists. Their only identifiable functions are to serve as advertisements for the Christian religion (i.e. a simple square sign on a stick isn’t used). They are a violation of litter laws and are advertisements trespassing on public land.
The prohibition on the establishment of a government-supported religion protects your right to (a) choose any religion you want – freedom of religion, AND (b) not be coerced into supporting a religion – freedom from religion. The govt. can take no action either supporting or harming a religion. It must be neutral. Therefore, public assets or funds cannot be used to promote a religion. It’s doublespeak to claim that not using public assets to promote religion is the same thing as harming religion. How else could the government possibly be neutral? Because government assets are seized from citizens through coercive taxation, use of government assets to promote religion is coercing citizens to support religion.
A lot of politicians said the same thing about inserting “under god” into the pledge or putting “in god we trust” on currency. Now those little non-issues are used as evidence by the theocracy movement that the U.S. is a “Christian country.” Why do you think they’re so dedicated to inscribe their religion on courthouse and legislature walls, public parks, and roadsides? They’re creating their own evidence.
Rob….are you sure your an atheist?
the problem here is not just stupid big white crosses on public land that some think universally symbolize an honoring of all the dead….with no religious connection what so ever….that does not in any way suggest a dead guy on a stick….no….the problem is that all these seemingly petty events all add up to a credibility that religion does not deserve…..they all add to graying that line to the point that it is not a line anymore…..they all add ammunition to these history revisionist that would like to make this country a christian nation and not a nation of people….
We definitely need freedom from religion or the first amendment would not have its meaning….
I would recommend boycotting Fox. By being interviewed, you’re just providing them with free material. I’d recommend the same for the president.
What president we have a errand boy for goldman sachs in the white house when he isn’t doing chores for george soros.
All this is fine and such but I do not see any efforts from you guys to stop Islam from spreading as the most dominant religion…
Learn from our blessed father Stalin how to deal with Muslims!
Here you are basically fighting your allies simply because you are too afraid to say ANYTHING against Islam!
Keep fighting against highway crosses and Christmas displays…
but let them build their mosque at ground zero.
Sharia law is coming for you…
it is your way of thinking that will allow Sharia law to become a threat to our liberties…..please help us keep church and state separate and then that threat will not have a chance….
here’s a 1997 CNN article about the fastest growing religions
http://www.cnn.com/WORLD/9704/14/egypt.islam/
here’s CIA Factbook with current percentage ratios per religion
https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/us.html
the conclusion is Islam in the US is growing, although currently just at a rate of maybe less than .1% per year…..and Christianity is falling at maybe greater than a 1% per year rate…..that would be one full decimal point difference…..the trend continues to widen the spread…..
and regarding the Ground Zero Mosque, that is not actually at Ground Zero although extremely close…..I pose a question regarding all the special tax privileges religion in this country gets….would the bill payers of this
property tax free club be able to afford to pay new york taxes…..I honestly dont know….but I would love to find out….
The cross is a christian shame on those who deny it.The mormons aren’t even christian.
The cross is a christian symbol.
First of all, your fight against crosses is totally misguided and wrong. The basis for your argument regarding the 1st Amendment believes mistakenly that the constitution calls for a separation between church and state, a belief that has nothing to do with the establishment clause. These crosses are approved by officer’s families so no family that is affected by a tragedy is offended in any way. In fact, your actions have further hurt these families and is inexcusable and reprehensible on your part.
I do not care that you are atheists and I do not see how these monuments should affect your civil rights in any way. I do believe in God, and feel sorry for you that you don’t. What is truly concerning in this case is that you are showing your complete and utter disrespect for the rights of christians to honor their dead and the freedom of religion that is guaranteed by the constitution that you claim to defend. For you not to realize that your organization is the party that is practicing religious discrimination in this case clearly demonstrates the ignorance of your founders and leaders.
You are missing the point. It does not matter that the crosses were approved by the families. It matters that the state of Utah is sanctioning these crosses directly in conflict with the establishment clause. In California, families make memorials to the dead along our highways all the time, which is fine. The memorials include crosses, flowers, baloons, etc. After a time, the state then erects a sign recognizing these fatalities. It is a secular sign which honors all the dead regardless of their religious or non-religious beliefs.
Oh, and one more thing, I feel sorry for you for believing in “Sky Daddy.” I am sorry to break it to you, but just like Santa Clause and the Tooth Fairy, “god” is make-believe. Grow up and start using critical thinking skills. There, I can be condescending too.
No, “I Will Think For You’, you have completely missed the point again. The placing of these crosses does not in any way violate the establishment clause. Just because citizens allow these crosses to be installed as a memorial to their fallen does not equate in any way to the Church of England and a national religion being established in this country. These crosses also do not deter you from the free practice of your “religion”. Your fight against them only hurts those families that have already suffered; for that you are insensitive.
I have to note that while you can be condescending, you fail to dispute the major problem with your thinking and the organizations also. The banning of these crosses directly infringes on the right of these families to freely practice their religion. So, if you and your organization are going to ignore this clause of our constitution, you have no right to cite your value of upholding the document.
Oh, and one more thing to you also. While everyone over the age of eight knows there is no Santa Clause or Tooth Fairy; no one on this planet can truly know that there is or is not a God above. That is an undeniable fact. I choose to believe in a higher power but I can not state absolutely that God exists. You stating that “God is make believe” is not a fact that can be proven. So it is you that needs to grow up and start using critical thinking. Sadly, I believe you are not capable of that and once again, clearly demonstrates your intolerance of the free practice of religion in this nation.
Concerned…..why is it so important for you to have us believe your exaggerated and unverifiable claims….why cant you just keep your beliefs to yourself….
I actually have more respect for these families than you do. I believe the families are better capable of providing a proper memorial for their loved ones than the government. There are actually places where people can memorialize their loved ones. They are called cemeteries which are private. If the state would like to erect a memorial at the place of death which is on public land, they can put up a secular monument to honor the troopers.
I agree, I can not prove that there is no “god,” but there is no evidence that any “god” exists. When I say “god,” I am referring to any god currently in fashion like Jesus, Allah, Krishna, Vishnu, the Flying Spaghetti Monster, _______ (put your god’s name here), etc. (Ok, maybe there is evidence that the Flying Spaghetti Monster exists. He did come to me in a dream one night and told me he was the one and only true god.) There is also no evidence that we have been in contact with aliens or that they have abducted anyone. However, there may be aliens out there in the universe somewhere. There is just no evidence of it (except for maybe the stories about the anal probes on people-those stories may be true.)
But seriously, I do appreciate the fact that you realize that your god’s existence can not be proven. Most believers would never admit that. I was at your stage of belief at one time too, as becoming an atheist did not happen over night. I hope one day you will start requiring evidence for your beliefs. Now I am taking my ball and going home.
for a Mormon it’s more than the cross that is a religious symbol, it’s that beehive. It’s was taken from the free masons like many other moron religious symbolism. Mormons believe that the beehive represents “sweetness and light” and that we are all worker bees contributing to the hive. From the letter head for the State of Utah, to the thing on top of the capital building (a beehive) to the patches and emblems on the state troopers cars seals and patches.
that is the real religious symbol that everyone should be concerned with. Those troopers that died are just bees in the hive. that is not a memorial or remembrance of the lives of the individuals that dies on Utah’s HWY’s, it’s a reminder that they contributed to the moronic hive.
I have noticed that the press stories covering this ruling are not mentioning the fact that ONLY crosses were allowed. It definitely made my opinion of the situation stronger to know that. You might want to mention that in your TV interview. Funny how facts like that seem to be left off stories when atheist groups sue.
is that tonight….? hmmmmm im watching southpark right now!!!!! (its the one where all the parents become atheists because they didnt want their kids being molested by priests,,, and cartman craps out his mouth) haha ill watch it thoughhh!
Seriously? I beleive everyone has the right to their own opinions and the right to practice whatever religious belief they want. Don’t push it on me!
What is next? Digging up headstones at Arlington? This country is out of control. Don’t you people have anything else to do? This country has become a moral wasteland. Whatever happened to family values? We have raised a generation who does nothing, expects everything, eats too much, and no one takes any personal responsibility. It all starts in the home! Everyone wants to blame someone else. It is sickening… What you are doing here is a disgrace. If you do not believe in god (or any other supreme being) that is your business and your right. For those of us who do, leave us the hell alone!
I recently returned from Afghanistan. I met a lot of fine soldiers over there fighting for the very freedoms you excercise. Don’t abuse them. I think what you are doing concerning the Utah state troopers is disgusting. How about a little compassion here?
Excuse me, but how on earth does the war in Afghanistan impact any of our freedoms whatsoever? Are the Taliban going to take away our freedom of speech, press, etc?
Somehow I doubt that.
Problem is, you folks seem to want to ‘share’ your weirdness w/the rest of us, in public & legislation.
Are they fighting for secular government? Are they fighting for the U.S. Constitution, including 1st Amendment? Because the Taliban are definately fighting for a religious government. They are religious conservatives, just like the Americans who oppose secular, religion-neutral government.
I still want to know just how the ‘they’re fighting for YOUR FREEDOM’ is cart blanche for anything the military does, right or wrong.
rfhughes…..I agree with your frustration about our youth…..they do seem to think only about how entitled they are….and damn is this nation fat….not just the youth….
but….do you really place blame on what you think is having your religion picked on…..that the reason for this frustration is because some people dont agree on what the likes and dislikes of your god are….
Im retired Army….so I know what the oath that soldiers take is all about…..it is about protecting our one binding document….I think the intent of our constitution is clear regarding religion….it is clear that people can worship what ever they want….no matter how ridiculous we may think it is….and the other piece of that understanding is that our government shall remain neutral…it remains neutral by not making any laws respecting an establishment of religion….that means religion cannot define morality either….unless of course your into stoning people, rules for slavery and blaming women for the first sin….
As a Montanan, I can agree with the gentleman opposite you in the interview, David, that yes, there are a lot of little white crosses along our roadways. However, they are barely larger than the little reflective markers on the side of all roads nationwide, and are mounted on the same type of post as those markers; definitely not the equivalent of a 12-foot ‘memorial’.
The other difference is that everyone knows our crosses simply show where someone died. How do we know? The American Legion, which sponsors the crosses, also has a small sign at every highway entrance to the state, that specifically states, “White crosses indicate fatalities.”
Oh, and ours represent ALL highway fatalities anonymously, not just law enforcement officers.
While, yes, a lot of people may instantly believe the cross on the side of the road indicates a memorial of where someone died, it is still a Christian undertone (and more an overtone with 12 foot steel ones). I mean, it happens, because a lot of people are Christian (or consider themselves to be despite “theist” being a better label in plenty of cases) and so they choose a symbol they immediately connect with: the cross. The whole reason to use a cross, though, is because of christian undertones. The whats-his-butt arguing with Dave is right that these have been used throughout America’s history, but only because we’re a Christianized nation. It’s the most immediate thought for most people. However, using it suggests a religious undertone, and in this case that’s blatantly obvious.
I want to know why not a damned flag?
Wow, Seriously? How hard is it to put up a truely secular sign???
I would bet if you did a public poll and asked America what does a cross stand for or mean, 99% would say something related to chrisanity.
Put up a Obolisk or Hell a sign much like highway sign mentioning them. But a 12 foot white cross? You got to be kidding me…
Utah is going to drag this out because they want to support their religion… And if not, it should be no problem to rectify a secular symbol because then it would mean cross means nothing. But the fact they are fighting for cross means that it is important and can not be replaced, and I know for me there is more than one way to symbolize somebody died with out a strong christian overtone. I feel they will waste millions of tax payer dollars to come to the conclusion that has already been arrived at.
What a sad little story. Continue the fight for our freedom from religious endorsement from our government!!!!!!
I think Dave did an excellent job. The best part was when he caught the attorney admitting that he would allow a Jew to choose a star of David in place of a cross. As Dave said, this clearly shows that the cross is a religous symbol and not secular. If it was secular why would they need to change it for a Jew.
I was also impressed by Fox News. The news models seemed to be siding with the Atheists, plus they could have brought on a widow of one of the troopers which would have made Dave’s job so much more difficult. This was a case where Fox news was fair and balanced.
Their day crew, when they have both sides on the show, tend to be reasonably fair. Though, they often do seem to “side” with the one side they have if they only have one side (which more often than not is some nut form the right wing). I would love to see how they treat a not rightwinger, though, when he’s on his own for the day crew…
Of course, we know it’s the prime timers and three morning stooges who are the main hypocrites.
An obelisk? WTF is wrong with an American flag? =P
Why is US taxpayers money being used to fund a trip for the developer of the ground zero mosque.
Whoever at CIA recruited obama should lose their pension.Come on now 15,000 to 16,000 dollars by state department for mosque developer to do outreach in mideast.The guy is getting 200 dollars a day plus expenses.
And all this time i thought the mormon symbols were locusts,snakes and knocked up 14 year olds.You never stop learning.
Good job Dave. I was going to mention the trip-up you made on your (our) opponent, but I will Think for You has already done so. I disagree a bit that the Foxheads were siding with us. They were more F&B than usual, IMO, but I still thought I detected their AthiestShields going up. I think Dave did manage to get in the last word for once tho.
Of course crosses are Christian symbols. Piles of stones (or, obelisks, anyone?)used to memorialize the dead before crosses ever did, but who’s going to know some TrueBeliever didn’t bite the dust near a pile of stones by the road? People MAY choose to memorialize their dead in their own fashion in a cemetery-or any other privately owned place -except even cemeteries have individual guidelines. Some don’t allow artificial flowers, some allow only artificial ones, for example. I poured a jar of piss on my grandfather’s grave. If he had died on the highway, should I be able to squat there and properly honor him every time I passed by?
Frankly I don’t really get the idea of erecting monuments in the places where people died. What’s so special about the side of the road anyway? Do we need to put floating memorials on rivers, oceans, lakes and swimming pools to show all the people who’ve drowned? If there were a freaking popsicle stick erected for everyone on this planet who has died, we wouldn’t have room for any damn roads to be killed on.
What about the Walmart employee who got trampled to death in the opening of xmas rush? Doesn’t he deserve a big old monument right between the double door at Wally World to remind folks not to push and shove while they shop for all the toys and electronic items that Baby Jesus stands for?
Highway memorials are just distractions. Personally I wouldn’t want an extra reminder of the place my loved one had died. I’d probably even try to find a different route to avoid it. But if they are so incredibly important, then I say, let’s go all out and put up little memorials for every Bambi, Rocky, Chip, Dale, Rover, Kitty, Smokey, Thumper and Tweetie ever made into roadkill. And that’s not even including skunks, possums,frogs and snakes!
And Dear Concerned,
Oh, really? Do you KNOW everyone over the age of 8? But even if you did, can’t you see that with 7 being the “Age of Reason” there’s a connection with kids figuring out Santa Claus (No “e” in his name, BTW) and the
Tooth Fairy? Millions of us have figured out the ‘god above’ thing too. SOME numb-skulls DO CHOOSE to believe that the lies Mom and Dad told them about some mythical beings are different from the one they told about GAWD.
yeesh.
Hey darlin’! Nice to have you back.
Hi KA
Thanks!
I haven’t been on any blogs for so long, I almost forgot what to do. I don’t know how much I’ll be around, but I’m trying to get back in the the swing of it.
karen says:
Great point Karen. No one can make a claim based on ultimate knowledge.
That is unless they claim to be an atheist…
Phreedm
Why are you taking up for mormons,they believe people can become gods and have their own planet to rule,does that sound christian to you? Does that even sound sane? Take a look at that cross it has a beehive on it.We need one church to forge national identity not all these crazy cults causing chaos.We should just pick one of the older traditional churchs for a state church,you want religion go to that otherwise do without religion.
For some, “national identity,” nationalism, or tribalism is their religion. If only everyone was the same we wouldn’t have any problems
I agree. Those Mormons do have some wacky, insane beliefs. Unlike Christians who have rational beliefs including the virgin birth, resurrection from the dead, demon possesion, speaking in tongues, a god with a multiple personality disorder, etc.(I did not even mention beliefs that stem from the Old Testament or I would be here all day). Now those are some sane beliefs that I can really get behind.
phreedm
Did you see on world net daily, where obama has used different names on official documents.barrack hussein obama,barrack hussein obama Jr.barry soetoro,barrack hussein obama soebarkah.
Small wonder the 2 of you read that bastion of white trash yellow journalism.
KA
White trash or not it doesn’t change the fact we know very little of our president his background,core beliefs.He claims to be christian so did Eisenhower who only joined a church 12 months before he ran for president and that is the guy who signed under god into law as well as in god we trust.
Chris B
Without strong national identity the only way to keep a multiethnic nation together is with secret police.With that comes abuse and nobody wants that.
Ooh…conspiracies & agendas & villains, oh my!
I’m right: you don’t listen to anything you’re saying.
So…you’re saying that a black president threatens our strong national identity?
Excepting you, apparently.
There are 2 models for multiethnic nations (which almost all nations are, except a few small island countries).
Model 1 is the Soviet/Chinese/Islamist model of coerced unity and artificially monolithic culture. This model applies forceful coercion and secret police to punish norm violators. The goal is to punish anyone who steps out of line in order to discourage broader factions from emerging from the government culture. The Soviet Union dissolved because most citizens hated being a part of it. China is tenuously kept together, for now. The Islamists’ own intolerance for religious dissent or ethnic differences prevents them from joining forces to form a larger empire. Model 1 usually fails.
Model 2 is liberal democracy, in which the rights of individuals are guaranteed. Diverse ethnic groups have an incentive to remain part of such nations, because separatist movements cannot offer them more freedom or less discrimination than they already enjoy. Plus, being part of a larger nation has benefits vs. being a small separatist enclave. The only additional cost is tolerating comrades who are very different from one’s own group. Model 2 produces prosperity and unity where it is found, but only to the extent that individual rights and representation are guaranteed to all. Democracies that discriminate against some groups often face rebellion and disunity (e.g. the Tamil Tigers, the Black Panthers).
The moral of the story is that you can’t apply Model 1 expectations that everyone act alike and follow culturally pure leadership and expect Model 2 outcomes.
Dave,
Excellent job!
Dale Hicks
KA…don’t forget to also include Dave since he’s given WND validity by quoting from their site on this blog.
reason…I’m not sticking up for anyone. I was merely pointing out the hypocrisy in Karen’s post.
One issue that no one has brought up is Dave and Mr. Ed’s desire to use this frivolous law suite as a fund raiser. Dave, exactly how much money is AA asking for in damages and legal fees?
Let’s not forget the Smaklowski’s in Oklahoma who were used by AA to fill their coffers. The Smaklowski’s ended up with nothing while AA received compensation from the courts.
Dave…did AA ever share any of the reward with the Smaklowski’s?
Yeah – a stopped clock is right twice a day anyways. Who forgot to wind you up, BTW?
Some of us seem to be under the impression that all those who say a white cross is a secular symbol that “somebody died here” actually believe what they’re saying. I am under no illusions that quite a few of the loudest proponents of keeping the markers don’t have the hidden agenda of making Christian symbology so pervasive in America that the unwashed masses can’t help but think that “We MUST be a Christian nation. If we weren’t the Founders wouldn’t have put ‘In God We Trust’ on our money or ‘under God’ in the Pledge or 10 Commandments monuments in our courthouses.”
You’re right, Joe. Christian fundies want the government’s stamp of approval. With government endorsement, they’ll eventually get the government’s right to coercive taxation, law making, and law enforcement.
.
I don’t think we can win in the long run just based on lawsuits and the Constitutional separation of church and state. The xians are proving adept at electing politicians that will appoint theocratic judges all the way to the Supreme Court. They’ve convinced tens of millions of voters to oppose or deny their own Constitution. The only way we can defend our secular nation in the long run is to match the size and civic power of the religious. Doing that will require the development of strong atheistic civic organizations that are at least as rewarding to their members as churches are to theists. This displacement of religion will be a human advancement equal to the invention of the wheel, animal domestication, or agriculture.
I see this as 2 things.
1) The crosses are on public land and are NOT a secular symbol and therefore do violate the separation of church and state.
2) Who in their right mind wants to use a torture device as a way to remember someone? Personally, that’s a pretty dick thing to do to remember someone who died…to associate them with a torture device.
What the hell people; this is not a WIN. This is exactly why we’re the most hated minority…because we have a lot of self rightous pricks doing shit like this. You think it’s a WIN that fallen State Troopers will have their memorial removed? If you do, I hope someone is pissing on your dead loved ones grave right now.
When I read this article, my heart sank. This is the first time I’ve ever been ashamed to be an atheist. I think the ‘christian protrayal’ of atheists has been proved correct in this matter. The ‘American Atheists’ group is turning into a religion, not in beliefs, but in practice. It’s really pathetic, and I guess I’ll throw you in the same category as christianity now. If you call this a win, you make me sick, and when you do this, you take every one of us (atheists) down with you.
For the record, I am a police officer. I know officers that have been hurt and killed in duty, and if anyone tried to remove their memorials, be it religious or not, I would stand in the same corner with Christians on this one, and when you take their crosses down, I will put them back up.
lcpd8001: I have to disagree with you. As an atheist, if my family put a cross on my grave I would regard it as a sign of disrespect. I know that funerals and memorials are for the living, but I would hope that the people that actually loved and cared about me would respect my beliefs.
I really respect you as a police officer. I am always compliant and respectful when pulled over, and have never had any problems with the police. However, I work with two men who are Christian fundamentalists and hate cops. They do not give cops any respect. I told them the other day that I am glad the police officer asked them what they are doing walking around at 1am. As a woman, and a victim of a violent crime, I am glad the cops are being proactive and making sure they are not doing anything against the law.
I hope you will realize that most people who murder police officers are believers and not atheists. So it is really the believers who are the problem. Once people start using common sense and reason, there will be no crime and therefore no need for memorials.