Should I, a guest who happens to be an atheist, hold hands during prayer or hold hands while someone sings a religious song at the dinner table so that (I have no choice but to assume) the hosting parents can foster the illusion of “Unanimity-in-Christianity” in order to further the indoctrination of their child in the rituals of the Christian faith?
Here’s a good start to what will likely be a long thread…
If you are a guest in someone else’s home, it seems reasonable to politely excuse yourself from the moments of brainwashing, and not make a scene in the process. In your own home, however, you can make your own rules.
I feel sorry for that kid stuck growing up in that house. Maybe if the guy’s stuck going back down next year, he’ll have the opportunity to speak to the poor child one on one and let him know to never stop thinking and never stop questioning things.
This is a hard one for me. I despise Christianity but I do respect and try to follow the public teachings of Jesus which have nothing to do with Christianity as it is practiced. One of the rules of Jesus is that one should treat others as you would have them treat you. So regardless of my feelings I would probably hold hands during the false praying simply because if I was in the other position I would not want my beliefs to be disrespected or scorned.
I would say if you are having dinner with Christians while you yourself are Atheist or non Christian Theist, you have a talk with the father or mother explaining that because of your beliefs you would feel uncomfortable with the prayer but would do it out of respect for their beliefs. And let them make decide which is best for them. While I would trash, burn or shred bibles without a worry in a general arena, even I would find it difficult to disrespect the beliefs of a friend, family or work associate. All I can say is do what is right for you.
MarkHolland says:
December 18, 2009 at 8:40 pm
Since atheists pride themselves on being tolerant, would you mind telling us why you “despise” Christianity?
despise- to regard with contempt, distaste, disgust, or disdain; scorn; loathe.
To phreedm
If I said that I despised Hitler or Stalin for all that they had done would you question me on my motives? I see no difference between the evil’s committed by these monsters and the evil committed by Christianity over their history. They are monsters who have murdered, enslaved, tortured and tormented everyone in their way who would not bow down and kiss the knob of Jesus or the pedophile priest claiming to speak in Jesus’ name. What is there in Christian History that can be put forth as absolving them of their crimes. Jesus himself if he was to walk this earth would condemn Christianity as he condemned the Jewish church of his time.
To phreedm
Please remember I am a Theist even though I am a member of the American Atheist organization. While Atheists may pride themselves on being tolerant I am a Theist who despises Christinaity to my very roots and consider them to be one of the greatest evils ever unleashed against mankind by Satan.
Wow, so decisions like this are really tough to for “free” thinkers to make? Given their obvious intellectual and moral superiority to primitive Christians, that’s quite (ahem) surprising…
To JCC
Yes as they should be tough for anyone who actually believes Jesus spoke the truth of God. It is the Christian church and it’s priesthoods that speak the lies of Satan and who have spilled more blood of innocents then probably any other group in the history of mankind. If you reject Jesus and his teachings and follow the teachings of a false and demonic church that is your failings not mine.
While Jesus was not and is not God, he was a man of God and a Teacher of God and a man Guided by God, If you chose the path to hell it is because of your failings not the failings of Jesus. So crawl back into your sulfur filled hole from which you came from and wait for your damnation and leave the rest of us alone. Be gone Demon you are not wanted here.
scjessey right….its all about location…..I can only add that public places are free game too….
Dave…you’re getting lazy. I would venture to say this question is asked every Christmas season….
How about some originality….?
Tell me something….can an 18 million year old fossil contain the flesh of an animal, that has not been mineralized yet?
Yes it can.
Really? As you would say…Please provide proof.
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/dinosaur/blood.html
KA
It seems strange that one would throw out all scientific evidence showing that the Dinosaurs existed some 65 million years ago based upon non fossilized DNA. If someone believes that the Dino DNA is proven to be 6000 years old would it not be more logical to say that some dinosaurs managed to survive past the great extinctions and lived up to 6000 years ago before being finally extinct.
While this is still a fantasy belief, it is not as fantastic as believing that all scientific data indicating the age of the dinosaurs is false based upon one DNA find. Heck even believing that a dinosaur somehow was teleported through time to 6000 years ago makes more sense then believing that the earth is only 6000 years old.
KA…a single fragment of a red blood cell? And it’s 65 million years old?
What about flesh? Could a fleshy part of a dinosaur be that old?
Obviously you didn’t read the whole thing.
To phreedm
Can a provable and out right lie be in fact the infallible truth of a God. Please explain in depth if it is needed. Can a man of God who claims to be inspired by God and guided by God and who claims to speak with the authority of God tell a obvious lie that is in fact an obvious truth of God. I would be interested in your fabrications concerning truth.
Why don’t we start small and build up the lies, Now the Baby Jesus Lies are a very interesting set of lies that I could not have put together without the help of JCC. So we may begin with these lies.
In Luke they go to Bethlehem to be taxed, Mary has the baby, And there was great fan fare with the shepherds spreading the word abroad. eight days later Jesus is circumcised and after Mary’s purification they went to Jerusalem where Jesus is proclaimed the Christ by Simeon. They then went back home to Nazareth and every year journeyed to Jerusalem for pass over. Verse 42 clearly says this was an ongoing ritual for Jesus was 12 at this time that they went and they had gone every year since his birth.
In Matthew Joseph, Mary and Jesus were in a house in Bethlehem, according to the wise men Jesus should have been around two years old, two years past the taxing recorded in Luke. It was their estimation that Herod used to kill all children under two in Bethlehem and in the coastal cities. Joseph is told to take Mary and Jesus to Egypt until the death of Herod. After the death of Herod, Joseph feared the son of Herod and turned aside into parts of Galilee. Joseph was returning home to Bethlehem in Judea before God told him in a dream to turn aside into Galilee where he came into and dwelt in Nazareth.
Let’s take it from the top, Matthew claims that Herod only found out about the new born king when the wise men showed up. But in Luke the shepherds were spreading the word abroad that the king was born a full two years earlier. No secret there and a big deal was made at the temple in Jerusalem when the infant Jesus was presented and Simeon declared Jesus the Christ, according to Matthew, two year old baby Jesus and family went into Egypt and stayed there until Herod died. According to Luke Baby Jesus and family lived in Nazareth and journeyed to Jerusalem every year for Passover which is where Herod lived according to Matthew Herod wanted Jesus dead so badly that he ordered the killing of all two year olds and younger in Bethlehem. But Jesus visited Jerusalem every year after birth for 12 years
This of course while Luke claims baby Jesus and family were happily living in Nazareth awaiting their next pilgrimage to Jerusalem for Passover while Matthew claims the mass murder of all children 2 years and younger was happening in Bethlehem while baby Jesus and family were hiding in fear in Egypt. These two stories are lies. Neither story has any evidence to back them and they contradict each other they are lies.
The Rama prophecy that is claimed to have been full filled by Herod’s killing of the children is a false claim and is a lie
Matthew 2:17 Then was fulfilled that which was spoken by Jeremy the prophet, saying, Mt 2:18 In Rama was there a voice heard, lamentation, and weeping, and great mourning, Rachel weeping for her children, and would not be comforted, because they are not.
Jeremiah 31:15 Thus saith the Lord; A voice was heard in Ramah, lamentation, and bitter weeping; Rahel weeping for her children refused to be comforted for her children, because they were not. Jer 31:16 Thus saith the Lord; Refrain thy voice from weeping, and thine eyes from tears: for thy work shall be rewarded, saith the Lord; and they shall come again from the land of the enemy. Jer 31:17 And there is hope in thine end, saith the Lord, that thy children shall come again to their own border.
This is a rule two prophecy, the author of Matthew tried to show that the killing of the children had been prophesied. It had not been, In Jeremiah, 31:16 and 31:17 God says the children would return home. Also the name of the prophet is not Jeremy.
Matthew 2:23 And he came and dwelt in a city called Nazareth: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophets, He shall be called a Nazarene.
I could find no reference in the Old Testament to, He shall be called a Nazarene. The closes I could come, was to Sampson the Nazarite. So either the author lied again or his reference was to Sampson not Christ. I consider this a rule three prophecy.
Luke 2:4 And Joseph also went up from Galilee, out of the city of Nazareth, into Judaea, unto the city of David, which is called Bethlehem; (because he was of the house and lineage of David:) 5 To be taxed with Mary his espoused wife, being great with child. 6 And so it was, that, while they were there, the days were accomplished that she should be delivered. 7 And she brought forth her firstborn son, and wrapped him in swaddling clothes, and laid him in a manger; because there was no room for them in the inn.
Luke 2:17 And when they had seen it, they made known abroad the saying which was told them concerning this child. 18 And all they that heard it wondered at those things which were told them by the shepherds. 19 But Mary kept all these things, and pondered them in her heart. 20 And the shepherds returned, glorifying and praising God for all the things that they had heard and seen, as it was told unto them.
Luke 21 And when eight days were accomplished for the circumcising of the child, his name was called JESUS, which was so named of the angel before he was conceived in the womb. 22 And when the days of her purification according to the law of Moses were accomplished, they brought him to Jerusalem, to present him to the Lord; 39 And when they had performed all things according to the law of the Lord, they returned into Galilee, to their own city Nazareth. 40 And the child grew, and waxed strong in spirit, filled with wisdom: and the grace of God was upon him. 41 Now his parents went to Jerusalem every year at the feast of the passover. 42 And when he was twelve years old, they went up to Jerusalem after the custom of the feast.
Matthew 2:1 Now when Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judaea in the days of Herod the king, behold, there came wise men from the east to Jerusalem, 2 Saying, Where is he that is born King of the Jews? for we have seen his star in the east, and are come to worship him. 3 When Herod the king had heard these things, he was troubled, and all Jerusalem with him. 4 And when he had gathered all the chief priests and scribes of the people together, he demanded of them where Christ should be born. 5 And they said unto him, In Bethlehem of Judaea: for thus it is written by the prophet,
Matthew 2:10 When they saw the star, they rejoiced with exceeding great joy. 11 And when they were come into the house, they saw the young child with Mary his mother, and fell down, and worshipped him: and when they had opened their treasures, they presented unto him gifts; gold, and frankincense, and myrrh. 12 And being warned of God in a dream that they should not return to Herod, they departed into their own country another way.
Matthew 2:13 And when they were departed, behold, the angel of the Lord appeareth to Joseph in a dream, saying, Arise, and take the young child and his mother, and flee into Egypt, and be thou there until I bring thee word: for Herod will seek the young child to destroy him. 14 When he arose, he took the young child and his mother by night, and departed into Egypt: 15 And was there until the death of Herod: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Out of Egypt have I called my son.
Matthew 2:16 Then Herod, when he saw that he was mocked of the wise men, was exceeding wroth, and sent forth, and slew all the children that were in Bethlehem, and in all the coasts thereof, from two years old and under, according to the time which he had diligently inquired of the wise men. 17 Then was fulfilled that which was spoken by Jeremy the prophet, saying, 18 In Rama was there a voice heard, lamentation, and weeping, and great mourning, Rachel weeping for her children, and would not be comforted, because they are not.
Matthew 2:19 But when Herod was dead, behold, an angel of the Lord appeareth in a dream to Joseph in Egypt, 20 Saying, Arise, and take the young child and his mother, and go into the land of Israel: for they are dead which sought the young child’s life. 21 And he arose, and took the young child and his mother, and came into the land of Israel. 22 But when he heard that Archelaus did reign in Judaea in the room of his father Herod, he was afraid to go thither: notwithstanding, being warned of God in a dream, he turned aside into the parts of Galilee: 23 And he came and dwelt in a city called Nazareth: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophets, He shall be called a Nazarene.
Now these are obvious lies contained in the bible. The Christian priesthood claims these lies as actually being the truth of an infallible God which makes them liars. And Christians on a daily basis claim these lies as being the infallible truth of God which makes them liars. Is there a part of this progression that escapes you.
You claim to be a theist. Exactly what does that mean?
To phreedm
It means that I believe that at least one God exists, and that it is possible many Gods exist, but I can only speak of the one that brought me into the faith. The one that touched my soul and said to me (I am Here)
Mark…so do you write your own theology?
To phreedm
The only fact that the God I believe in gave me is his existence. Everything else is simply my piecing together the clues that he has indirectly guided me to. That is why I say that this God and what I believe this Gods name, image and persona is are valid only in regards to me.
Mark…I’ll take that as a yes.
As for your rather long dissertation, you’ve got your chronology wrong. And I believe you make assumptions instead of seeking the answers.
I’d be more then happy to discuss this further, but I don’t believe this blog is the place to do it. Give me an email address if you like.
To phreedm
Your bible sets up the time line, not me. There is a comment section at my site http://biblelies.wordpress.com/ fell free to discuss it to your hearts content. Just remember interpretations are nothing more then opinions. This material is straight out of your own bible.
Mark, do you realize that you’ve just neutralized your entire discussion.
To phreedm
Neutralizing theists is what I am attempting to do. If everyone in this world believes different then me what does it matter to me. If I am the only one who holds my beliefs then what is the problem with that. Religious beliefs should be personal and individual and those beliefs should only be valid to the individuals who hold those beliefs. Personal and individual beliefs have never been a problem. It is those beliefs that people claim are universally enforceable this beliefs are invalid and should be challenged and destroyed if necessary.
The time for me to blithely accept such endorsement of prayer has past.. perhaps prayer time is the right time to suddenly have to go to the bathroom. Either that or start eating during the prayer.
Most individuals in a familly situation will already know your feeling about prayer, anyway.
Firstly, I think this is a stupid question. Beliefs should not put wedges between family during times of celebration, for whatever reason.
Secondly, ALL parents, in their own ways, indoctrinate their children into their way of doing things. When children are younger, it is the parents to teach them right and wrong, and to do so requires a certain amount of indoctrination. When the children are old enough to make their own decisions, they will, despite indoctrination. It is just as likely for a Christian kid to become an atheist as an atheist to become a Christian.
Lastly, and this sort of goes with my first comment, family should come first during these times. If you’re with Christian family members, join them in their celebration. Surely the family knows your an atheist, so to hold hands with those next to you and even sing with them shows them that you respect their right to choose to believe something different from you. Atheists tend to get a bad rap when it comes to tolerance. It would show your family that you’re not one of those guys. As I said above, these kinds of things should not sever family solidarity during the holidays especially.
No this isn’t a ‘stupid question’. An atheist should be able to be excused from prayer, or singalongs, or any of these other things.
I object to being a part of any superstitious proceedings, indeed, I had a huge blow-out w/my non-religious family a few years back. People who are only religious when it suits them. I asked (very politely) to be excused from the prayer – I was told I was participating END OF DISCUSSION. I pointed out that if they had a Jew or Muslim over, they wouldn’t strong-arm that person. I was told I was participating END OF DISCUSSION. My sis then told me that I’d have to sit w/the kids – I said that that was okay by me – I was told I was participating END OF DISCUSSION.
It was awful, I was treated by my own family, who aren’t even religious, like some kind of crazy person, all because I wanted to be excused from some tiny ritual they barely even indulged in regularly.
So don’t tell me that I should be bullied into doing something I don’t want to do, regardless of the reason.
I think there are some errors in this comment.
1.Religion, especially the Christian religion, is purposely divisive. Jesus, the mythical figure prominent in the Christian religion, supposedly said just that.
2.Although some atheists may have claimed to be converted to Christianity, i do not think that someone who is an atheist can ever truly believe again, knowing the information that I have learned in my studies of religion. How someone can be reconverted to believe in something which has been proven to be a fictional concoction of primitive peoples. Either that atheist would have to be lacking some vital piece of information, or lacking the ability to understand the implications of that information.
3.It is not atheists who are intolerant in such family occasions. It is the believer who feels all must participate in their faith, regardless of individual beliefs, or non-belief.
An excellent opportunity to announce that you have become a Pastafarian.
Ramon
Christmas the true one is on jan7.That shouldn’t hold people back though from enjoying the false one on dec25.
sometimes I remind people of my deeply held beliefs…..especially when they want to tell me about theirs
True this is somewhat old hat. I just say go along with it in the spirit of tolerance. What big deal is it to hold hands during something anyway? But afterwords, in candid conversation, be honest and polite about your beliefs. Heck there’s a million ways you can spark that conversation yourself if it doesn’t come up on it’s own… I mean, thank god for denominations that nitpick with each other
“So what do you think about X?” Then you’ll usually get the question thrown back at you, or at least it’s generally then okay to volunteer your answer to the question you yourself asked.
Long as you handle it well, be respectful, you’ll be doing a couple things, one leading by example instead of arguing, seeming normal, and… they’ll notice you were tolerant and okay with following through on their rituals…which coudl make them more open to doing the same later and… well with this revelation they’ll get implanted the idea that just because someone goes along with the ritual doesn’t mean everyone believes in it.
And now maybe they’ll wonder, “hmmm who else maybe is just following through out of politeness? Maybe those beliefs aren’t as pervasive as I thought?”
I’ve found that just sitting back quietly works. No hand-holding or head-bowing (I understand that others might be comfortable with that, but I can’t do it), but as a guest in another’s home I’ll just respectfully wait in silence while they carry out their rituals.
I love the season of Christmas, be it derived from old memories or current perceptions, I love it.
On the other hand I would no more participate in the sky talking rituals of the faithful then I would an animal sacrifice designed to assure the return of the sun.
I simply wait till they are done pontificating to the clouds and return their attention to real people and events.
Dave, hope you had a Happy Hanukkah.
And to all of us, solace of a soulless solstice.
Once again, as christians praise their idea of the creator of the universe, I am reminded of the census of David. Because David didn’t count their money, but instead counted their numbers, god brought a plague on David’s subjects. There’s justice for ya. Some want to worship him, personally, I think he should be tried in the Hague.
KA made the point that Jericho was fallen before the genocide in Canaan by the Israelites. Maybe so, KA, that is for archaeologists to figure out, but, the point is that fundies believe every word of the bible to be true and inspired by god. It’s historical accuracy was beside my point.
If you believe the genocide of Canaan, or the flood, or execution of the firstborn sons of Egypt in the tenth plague, then you are living with blinders if you extrapolate that you worship a loving and forgiving god.
And again Dave’s fucked up software decided I was done with my post.
The christian god is a monster that makes Hitler unqualified as an understudy. I would prefer to carefully aim a splitting mall between his eyes rather than take a knee in acknowlegement of his kindness and mercy. Save us from our sins? My ass!! No man has committed murder on the scale he has, and we need HIS forgiveness?????? What an absurd joke.
NeoWolfe
I would bet that if someone added up all of the deaths committed in the name of God or Gods and then added up all of the deaths committed in the name non Theist secular reasons that list would be very one sided and it would not favor the deaths committed in the name of Gods
Families routinely adapt their annual gathering traditions for people who have any of the following traits:
-vegetarians or vegans
-people with allergies
-no pork for Muslims and Jews, no beef for Hindus, etc.
-long distances to travel or illness
I think Atheism does not rise to a high level of importance in the minds of most people because it’s not assumed to be a serious concern. In other words, it is assumed that we WON’T be offended or even inconvenienced by the prayers begging gawd to disinfect our food or whatever, so there is no reason to change that tradition.
What’s the solution to not being taken seriously? Becoming one of those annoying hypersensitive, always angry/offended people? That’s not the nature of most of us.
I’d say this lack of respect is a symptom of a larger problem. Many people think atheists just “stand for nothing,” have no firm beliefs, or are just “going through a phase.” We aren’t overwhelmingly organized (as in, by the millions), we have no dogma or well-known unity of purpose, and some of us routinely step into and out of the closet as convenient. Who’s surprised that we get no respect?
My husband and I take this time to gaze into each others’ eyes and smile, perhaps blow a silent kiss, or a tantalizing tongue on the lips. It’s how we say, “I’m with you, no matter what.”