The Nativity scene had been displayed for about 50 years in Memorial Square. This year, a self-described atheist asked to put up a winter solstice sign alongside the creche (CRESH’).
Rather than allow multiple displays, the borough council last week banned them all. Now, only flowers and the American flag are permitted.
Cheers to the PA Nonbelievers for showing us once again that Christians, at least some of them, would rather take their creche and go home than actually share public land with non-Christians.
It comes down to the issue of a monopoly. If Christians have a monopoly on public land, it looks and feels like government endorsement of their mythology over everyone else’s (which, in fact, it is). However, if they are visibly placed on par with everyone else, they’d rather have the neutrality that accompanies the separation of church and state. There are no other excuses, and we see this everywhere — we try to get our own display, and they cancel all displays. I guess we win either way, but I’d rather the Christians take the high road more often.
Here is the audio of their Borough’s Chamber Meeting
I agree with Carl Silverman that it would have been better if the Chambersburg council had embraced the concept of diversity. But the present situation that means no Baby Jeebus and no Virgin Mommy with Holy Unpenetrated Sacred Hymen on public property is superior to the case in past years when the town gave tacit approval to ridiculous ancient superstitions based on ignorance of reality.
For 50 years? I love it when in your hatred you reveal true American History…
So much for the myth…
A self-described atheist? Wait…I thought it was the PA “Non-Believers” (we don’t believe in anything…except ourselves)group that wanted to put up a sign. Can someone show me historical proof of a “winter solstice” sign?
Once again proving there is no such thing as “pure atheism”…it’s a myth.
Bottom line…it was meant for nothing but mockery. Never have I met such a group of people that lack such self esteem that they are offended by American Traditions…
in 1944, President Franklin Roosevelt made th recommendation to do the following. Yes…more proof of American Traditions.
“I suggest a nationwide reading of the Holy Scriptures during the period from Thanksgiving Day to Christmas. Go the Scriptures for a renewed and strengthening contact with those eternal truths and majestic principles which have inspired such measure of true greatness as this nation has achieved.”
The Silvermans would have a coronary if a President said that today…
Define “pure atheism”. If you mean atheism is always tainted by belief, then you are wrong. If you mean to say no one definition applies to all atheists as to what their outlook is, then you may be right. All atheists differ in opinions but one thing is required, non-belief.
“Define “pure atheism”. If you mean atheism is always tainted by belief, then you are wrong”
Yes…atheism IS always tainted by a belief. In oneself. By it’s very claim…”There is no God”, requires unquestionable belief in oneself as having the knowledge of the universe. You can twist it any way you want to, but facts are facts…
please let us know how the legal battle goes….I agree also with Carl….think I’ll become familiar with all my towns public places and whats displayed on them during this solstice….
the mean old atheist are taking away the baby jesus and the true meaning of christmas….waaaaaah
Why does David Silverman, the Blogmeister, blog so infrequently about the behavior of crazy jews? Here’s a crazy for you:
Does the “War on Xmas” really merit all the attention given to it by Mr. Silverman? Aren’t there more consequential events occurring in our world than this. Of course there are. Stop pretending that they don’t exist, Mr. Silverman.
I think a better question is, why are you so obsessed w/Jewry?
David blogs about them infrequently, because the ratio is about 20 to 1, compared to the other big 2.
Yeah, like Blankfein bringing down the world economy all by his little lonesome.
Yeesh, get a clue.
Don’t give me this 20 to 1 ratio stuff. Dave has missed many opportunities to blog about jews. He just holds them to a different standard. He will fire off a few rounds at xians and mulims (or simply suspected muslims) without little justification for doing so. But when it comes to jews he uses a much different standard. One that allows war crimes and massive ponzi schemes to slip under his radar!
Who said he brought it down by his “little lonesome”? Nobody. Since he did have help does that excuse his behavior? Got an accomplice? A dozen? A hundred? That’s a KA get-out-of-jail-free card!
Sorry, I played it down some. It’s actually higher than that.
Hey, go form your own blog then.
Apparently just like you do.
Wait – what? Like what? The muslim who beheaded his wife?
Is that you, what?
Hey, jews are better behaved. Sorry that spoils your day.
He did a few posts about Madoff, & the xtians outnumber the jews in the Bush administration. So no, I don’t think you have anything there.
Are you a fucking retard or something? All those Ph.D’s rot your brain out?
I requested you prove he did something wrong. It’s called ‘evidence’. Maybe you’re familiar w/the term? It’s been around a while.
Being a jewish & in a higher position of power isn’t a crime. @ least to those of us who aren’t obsessed about jews.
Bringing down the economy is not something wrong?!! Can jews do anything wrong in your mind? Answer: No. You have a credibility problem on this ATHEIST blog.
Again, evidence speaks louder than your assertions.
I was right: you ARE a fucktard. I’ve never even hinted such a thing. People fuck up regularly, regardless of religion.
Wait – what? Why? Because I don’t play your game? Because I think you voice some pretty stupid shit? Because I don’t cotton to your weird little conspiracy theories w/o evidence?
ATHEISM = lack of belief in the supernatural. That’s it. There’s nothing in the memo says that hating Jews is a requirement. Oh wait – there IS no such memo, or playbook, or any other fucking thing.
KA
So this scum bag with a synagogue named for him even admits to wrong doing but that’s not enough for Silverman to blog about him. Silverman is no atheist.
I’ll concede this point – David should do a post about the guy. You should email David w/this sort of thing.
The ‘No True Atheist™’ accusation? Again? Really? Are you kidding me? What does it say in the rulebook? Oh wait – no such thing.
Really, you’re more judgmental than an xtian.
So…is Blankfein charged w/a crime? He should be censured, but is he under indictment?
What’s your point? Is his admission not cause enough for Mr. Silverman to blog about this jew with a synagogue named for him? It is clear that Mr. Silverman has no standards for blogging. His bias and favoritism are his guide.
Just askin’.
Sure it is.
It’s obvious that he DOES have standards. Problem is, they’re fairly liberal. Because really, he lets people get away w/all sorts of nonsense here. Someone has to REALLY go overboard to get booted, fr’ex.
That goes for everyone, so you’ve said nothing new there.
Bias and favoritism toward certain religions is unacceptable quality in an AA spokesperson. AA will not thrive if bias and favoritism influence its mission.
Let’s take a gander @ AA’s mission statement:
http://www.atheists.org/youth_and_familyhttp://www.atheists.org/youth_and_family
Mission
American Atheists is dedicated to freedom of thought and civil rights for those who don’t follow religion.
So technically, he’s not required to badmouth religion, or people. So unless you have some other mission statement from AA, I think you lost that 1.
Oh please try to make some sense!
But he does “badmouth religion and people” and he does show bias and favoritism in doing so. Mr Silverman’s bias and favoritism should not be allowed to influence AA’s mission. BUT IT IS! AA will not thrive under Mr. Silverman’s influence.
I am making sense.
My point was he doesn’t have to do either, according to the mission statement. It’s just a side effect of the biz.
You’ll need to demonstrate how not blogging about jews has anything to do with, & I quote, “freedom of thought and civil rights for those who don’t follow religion. ”
Ah, the clarion call of the hobby-less. Or the clueless. Does this keep you up @ night? Give you the night sweats? Do you imagine the jews have their fingers in every pie, & you won’t get a piece? Poor you. How sad.
Let’s drop the topic before you embarrass yourself any further.
So now you want me to explain how bias and favoritism toward certain religions would not be good for AA? Should I wipe your bottom for you as well?
No, I laid out my parameters. Explain to me how attacking Jews (who are also a race & an ethnicity as well as a religion) will advance the cause.
Huh. I guess they’re handing out ph.d’s to middle school children now.
I have made such an assertion. So you explain it. What I have written is that giving deference to some religions will hurt the cause. Wipe your own bottom next time!
have made such -> have not made such
Ah, no, you make the assertion, you explain it. That’s how it works.
Got it the 1st time.
I was wrong.
What had a lot more class than you.
I guess you didn’t see my plainly visible correction. I HAVE NOT MADE SUCH AN ASSERTION. You explain the words you put in the mouths of others.
So far what we have established is a religious jew (with a synagogue named after him), Lloyd Blankfein, admitted to his huge role in our economic devastation yet Mr. Silverman, who will blog about the barely controversial behavior of christians and jews, has no time to blog about such consequential matters.
No?
Hey, I don’t care WHAT ‘correction’ you’ve made, you have most certainly MADE SUCH AN ASSERTION.
Such as:
Bias and favoritism toward certain religions is unacceptable quality in an AA spokesperson. Meaning Jews.
Is his admission not cause enough for Mr. Silverman to blog about this jew with a synagogue named for him?
For a guy w/2 ph.ds, you’re none too bright. Or you’re a liar. Which is it?
& funnier still, after claiming you made NO SUCH ASSERTION, you re-assert it w/the following:
Yeah, I don’t see you carrying on about any of the muslims or xtians that are complicit as well.
Or maybe jews are a pet peeve w/you?
Email Silverman about it w/your concerns. I’ve already conceded he should do a post about it. Carrying on about it @ length is making you look the jackass.
(& probably me too, since I keep responding, come to think of it.)
Try to show me where I made such an assertion and then apologize to me.
You’re joking, right? Or are you so lacking in self-awareness, that you can’t see that’s what you’ve been doing all along?
I’m having serious doubts about your adulthood.
I’m having trouble with Christianity at my workplace, again. It’s not Jews who are causing the problem, only Christians.
That’s your workplace.
yes it does….christmas, in god we trust, school prayer, 10 commandments….all this lends to the credibility that religion does not deserve….
did god use his super natural sperm to impregnate mary….virgin birth…f u religion….
“War on Xmas?” Typical. What it has always been is a war on anyone who dissents the popular Christmas views of Christians.
I never wrote what you say I wrote. You are deluded.
No, you didn’t say it outright, but you’ve inferred as much. Obviously your ‘degrees’ aren’t in English or any sort of critical thinking. & your self-awareness needs some polish.
Infer? You must mean implied. I did not imply it either. You inferred it and wrongly so. What I wrote and implied is that Mr. Silverman is exhibiting a favoritism and bias and that this would not be good for AA. If he is going to attack religion then he should do so without bias and favoritism influencing his attacks. Mr. Silverman could achieve an unbiased state by attacking christians and muslims less – and using a better standard for doing so – or attacking jews more – or using a relaxed standard. He presently chooses neither option.
KA
Quit while your behind. You can get more behind.
They’re synonyms, so nice try.
& I showed logically, that this would have little bearing, in re: the actual mission statement for AA.
An entirely subjective opinion on your part.
See, you’ve just proven me right – again. Why you have a woody for jews is a mystery to me.
Well, I’d say you were a horse’s behind, but that’s another subjective opinion.
You don’t really think you’re winning this, do you? Because that’d put you on par w/some of the delusionists that frequent this…free…blog.
You get what you pay for, I guess.
No they are not synonyms. You simply can’t admit when you are wrong.
LMAO! You maybe don’t do this, but I tend to look things up before I open my mouth.
Infer = Imply. They mean the same damn thing. Nice variant on Loki’s Wager you tried to play, but still, epic fail.
Anybody here can use a dictionary and see that you are clearly wrong. Weird. But more importantly you should admit that I neither implied nor inferred that which you say I have.
Mr. Silverman is an appropriately biased representative of AA.
appropriately -> inappropriately
a speaker or writer implies, a hearer or reader infers, and implications are incorporated in statements while inferences are deduced from statements; imply means ‘suggest indirectly that something is true’ while infer means ‘conclude or deduce something is true’ and, further, to imply is to suggest or throw out a suggestion while to infer is to include or take in a suggestion
infer means ‘to deduce, reason’ and imply means ‘to hint at, suggest’
http://thesaurus.reference.com/browse/draw+inference
So I did use the word right.
& you are inferring that David doesn’t spend enough time on bad press on Jews simply by your last statement, & I quote:
I rest my case.
You are still having a problem with the old melon. My statement neither implies nor infers what you say it does. Mr. Silverman could decrease his bias by EITHER being more critical of jews OR being less critical of muslims and christians OR by doing something that I have not yet considered. Get it?
Stop making excuses for his behavior and side-tracking the argument. The facts are what they are and they show that Mr. Silverman displays a clear pattern of bias. This is not appropriate behavior for an AA official.
Listen, fried rice, I’m not having any problems w/anything.
You obviously have a reading comprehension issue: I re-stated your premise in different terms.
I’m not making any excuses. Jews get less bad press because they’re better behaved. 20 to 1 ratio, got it? It’s higher, but I’m not obsessed enough to crunch the numbers. I’ll leave that to you.
I’m also not the 1 redefining words to suit myself.
I’ve already outlined how Dave’s non-treatment of jewish behavior (which is a minor blip in contrast to the other big 2) has nothing to do w/the mission statement of AA.
Man you are juvenile.
There should be a war against Christmas, Christians have had nearly two hundred years of nearly unchallenged authority in this country. If it was not for the United States Supreme Court we would have been a Theocratic dictatorship decades ago. Why should all Americans be forced to acknowledge a false belief in a false God, based upon a false holy book enforced by a false priesthood. Heck I would not mind a good old fashion witch hunt with the Christians playing the witches.
It has only been since Bush the Son stacked the judicial deck with Christian fanatics in the Courts and the Supreme Court, that the possibility of America turning into a Theocratic dictatorship is feasible. A good old fashion witch hunt with Christians playing the leading role of witches sounds damned good to me about now.
Note to Witches: Non of the above comments are meant to disparage or show disrespect or disdain for Witches in general.
But you’re on record as asserting that the Bible validates your idiotic “bible code.” So, how can it be “false” when it “validates” your holy text?
Given the inability of Bush to fill all the vacancies in the Federal judiciary due to the irrefutable and well documented Democratic stonewalling of his nominees, which “judicial deck” are you referring to?
To JCC
My God you came out of the shadows to talk to me, I am surprised. Usually Demon’s such as you only come out in the night. I make no contradictions as to my statements. The Bible (Jewish) validates the bible codes, the Jewish bible is not valid on its own, and by extension the Christian bible which claims it’s authority from the Jewish bible is invalid.
The Torah is only valid in the concept that it validates the Bible Code, nothing more and since the Christian Bible is based upon the Torah it also is no more valid then the Torah is. There is no contradiction in this. The Jewish and Christian Bibles are only valid in so far as they validate the bible code, they are invalid in all other aspects.
As for stacking the deck it was Bush the Sons appointing of Judges during senate reassesses and his use of presidential orders to side step the constitution that made him the demonic presence that hopefully history will remember him as being the greatest evil to ever be inflicted upon the human race.
JCC just deal with it you believe in a false God and false belief, and are following a false priesthoods instruction.
Why the need for the ad hominem?
Well, that makes “perfect” sense—nothing self-contradictory there.
Let me get this straight, the Bible isn’t valid, but it is because it validates the “bible code.” Hmmm. Obviously, the phrase “circular reasoning” has no meaning to you.
No, no—nothing contradictory, it’s invalid, yet it is valid when it comes to “validating” your supposed code…but the code is only found in it (the Bible), so it (the Bible) must have been written by some “supernatural” agent… Yes, your reasoning is impeccable—who could possibly find it flawed?
Yes, what an egregiously unconstitutional act!—no other president has ever stooped to such trechery.
Yes, and the current holder of the office will be remembered as our country’s “savior;” our most voluble, intelligent, fearless, masculine, bold and decisive leader we’ve ever had.
Oh, okay. Given your impeccably logical, inarguably consistent and peerlessly articulate ability to utterly demolish my worldview, who am I to disagree with such a towering intellect as you?
Anybody see the many similarities between the writing styles of JCC and KA?
Wow. Just…wow. I’m accused of all sorts of nasty fucked up lies on this blog, but now it’s sock puppetry?
I’d almost swear that rice = what, they sound so much alike.
If the sock fits … wear it.
Looks like a good fit.
I’d suggest you get glasses then, because your old pair aren’t any good anymore.
I am not JCC, nor is he I. If you’d done a little checking, instead of running your mouth off, you’d know that he & I (until recently) have been locking horns for years. It’s not unusual to borrow from each other, but I’d have to say he’s borrowed my voice, which is quite distinctive, in order to pander his goods. It’s a common tactic of the religious.
But if you were 1/2 as smart as you claim to be, you’d not have made such an ugly & stupid accusation.
So, fuck off, please.
rice
KA is no one’s sock puppet, and it is the highest of ironies that you would accuse him of being one to jcc.
You however, seem to hold very similar views and present very similar arguments as What used to. I liked What though, even if not many -or any- others did.
KA
I have the feeling that rice will just accuse me of being an alternate sock puppet. Have you checked his registration info and compared it to what’s? I suppose what has the savvy to do an end-run around such things, so comparisons may not be conclusive.
Hope your holiday season has not been the roller coaster that mine has been so far. Wish I had more time to visit. Love ya, Sweetie!
Thanks, darlin’.
Yes, I checked it against what’s email address. I’m beginning to suspect, however, that his writing style is so eerily similar to the banned one’s, it could be a reverse tu quoque.
My holidays have been restful, thanks. No emotional dramas thus far.
To be honest, I liked sparring w/What a lot. & when he wasn’t on about the jewish thing, he was pretty coherent & logical. I really didn’t enjoy banning the guy – but rules are rules, & I gave him a lotta leeway.
And what are the rules?
I wish I had the courage that this fellow from Chambersburg has, a lone voice of intellect in a sea of stoooopid. There’s so many “Baby Jeebus and Virgin Mommy with Holy Unpenetrated Sacred Hymen” scenes around here it’s damn near suffocating. If people would only take that scarrrry step and educate themselves, learn about the past and ancient traditions that are not defined by one specific group of faith-heads, then perhaps they’d realize that there is so much to celebrate about the solstice.
The ignorance I live in is so medieval. I can’t declare my enlightenment or I could lose my job. Pathetic isn’t it? Welcome to the new dark ages!
ot
Obama is going to make a speech[photo op]at west point today.Watch him blame bush for afghan mess, ignoring that he did nothing in senate to make it better.How long will it take after he sends troops before he undermines them.He only cares about getting elected he is just trying to make it look good for when he orders a pullout later.We are going to witness the flower of our youth bleed in afghanistan for nothing.We are going to see innocent afghans suffer for nothing.You can thank the jewish community for imposing this canker sore of a president on us.Without jewish brains,money this clown would still be on the streets of chicago.
Reason
Of course Obama inherited this huge fiasco from the war criminal Bush. Bush is to blame and he should be blamed at every opportunity until justice is served and he and his gang are behind bars.
And you are right Obama is f’ing up. Out of Afghanistan now!
Satan[obama]and democrats[liars,crooks]will stage a jobs photo op on thursday.
To JCC
Actually I am sorry for the Demon comment any Demon worth his/her salt would be corrupting the upper levels of Christianity not slumming in the lower levels of Christianity, so calling you a Demon would be insulting to the actual Demons running the Christian religion.
Let me type this real slow and see if you can understand it, a code or cipher is created, now for a secret message to be created a body of text has to be written that allows the coded message to exist. The sole purpose for the body of text is so that the coded message can exist. The body of the text validates the code so that the code or cipher may be read, but the code or cipher does not validate the body of the text because the body of the text exists only to allow the code to exist.
This type of coding has been used and has existed since probably the first written language was created. Militaries and Governments through out the ages have used this type of coding. So if the Bible Code exists, and the Torah is written in such away that allows the coding to be understood, Then the Torah and it’s stories are only valid in so far as they allow the reading of the code. The text of the Torah is not validated by the code, the code is validated by the texts of the Torah.
Now if Christianity had established itself separately from the Jewish beliefs and Torah, and had simply accepted the public teachings of Jesus as being God given, their beliefs would be a far better religion that it is, and it would not be tied to the validity of the Torah but unfortunately they did. By trying to use the Torah to validate Jesus, the early church leaders tied the validity Jesus to the validity of the Torah. Invalidate one and you invalidate the other, which has been done.
The Torah and the Christian bibles invalidate themselves, no God or Gods could write such garbage if in fact God or Gods are infallible and perfect and without flaw as many Theists claim. If God or Gods are infallible and perfect and without flaw, then such beings would be incapable of writing such books. As for the Bible Code being my holy text, not likely I find the Bible Code to be interesting if it is real and does really exist, then there needs to be some explanation for it.
I cannot see any civilization that could ever exist or has existed being able to write such a complex and massive code and be able to have that code still be valid over centuries, if such a code does exist and is valid I would consider it to validate the existence of God or Gods, because I could not imagine any other way that such a code could exist. But the Bible Code if it is valid is nothing more then a curiosity. If it is real then all it does is provide verification and nothing else. There is no useful information for the most part it cannot provide information for future events because you need key words to search for that information.
Some code investigators plugged in the keywords (end times) and the code has returned the references to a planetary strike from space in the 2012 time frame, but such predictions are rare because the key words that are needed for verification are usually not known until after the event occurs. So for the most part the Bible Code if real is simply a curiosity.
Your maturity is surpassed only by your “way with words.”
Given your demonstrated aptitude for wordsmithery, you could type it a letter-per-day but I seriously doubt you’d produce little more than a rambling, barely comprehensible, sub-literate, ill-punctuated conglomeration of words that even you would be hard-pressed to follow—if you were to attempt to proof read it.
So, wouldn’t the existence of the “secret message” have to precede the existence of the text in which it is to be embedded? But according to what you’ve written, it sounds as though the “secret message” can’t exist until its host text exists… but that’s counterintuitive to the concept of your silly “bible code.”
But that implies that the human authors of the Torah had to have a priori knowledge of this “code”—and if said code is of divine origin, then the Torah must have been divinely inspired too.
But given Christ’s rabbinic knowledge of the Scriptures and His adherence to, and observance of Jewish law and customs, how could it not have been separate?
Your demonstrable ignorance (or gross misunderstanding) of Biblical scholarship and ancient Hebrew history and culture is folkloric.
But again, according to you, the “code” is of divine origin and couldn’t exist until the Bible had been written, therefore, that “garbage” had to be of divine origin as well.
…b-but according to you, that “book” had to exist prior to the existence of the code it contains—have you actually read what you write here?
And that explanation is:
So, the “god or gods” inspired humans to write a book of “garbage” in order to embed in it a code after the fact?
Now, I’m totally confused. What exactly do you believe?
JCC this is a very simple code, What the body of the message says is unimportant. The importance of the body of the message is in the code message it conveys.
JFDSJJIOEJQCEFNEOCJEOFEO.EIOJFIOWFEWSANVVX.IOIRWCYURGRHRIURHRRHGIHIIRWHISHIERWTEWHFEIIUHFEANBEWIN
The code message is based upon every sixth letter being a part of the code message, with the period (.) being the sign of a space. Although codes can be very complicated and mind boggling this is a very simple code. Using every sixth letter and a period (.) as a space gives you this.
JFDSJJIOEJQCEFNEOCJEOFEO.EIOJFIOWFEWSANVVX.IOIRWCYURGRHRIURHRRHGIHIIRWHISHIERWTEWHFEIIUHFEANBEWIN
This code says that JCC IS CHRISTIAN. Hopefully this will bring your education on codes up to date. The body of the text is unimportant, except as it allows the message contained in the code to be understood. If the Torah was written to allow the Bible Code to be known then it is not the context of the Torah that is important. It is in how the body of the text allows the information contained in the code to be known.
Shut up!
Let them talk. It’s fun to watch the crazies spar. Kinda like watching celebrity boxing – great yuks.
To Rice
Ah come on Rice, you mean that watching two theists bashing in each others heads with baseball bat’s has no entertainment value what so ever. From what I understand JCC has been tormenting this site for years, you mean that seeing another Theist clobber him is boring. I do not attack nor do I disparage Atheist’s or what they are attempting to do. The only difference between me and a Atheist is that I happen to believe in a God. In all other things I agree with and support Atheists. I have corresponded with Michael Newdow and urged him on in his fight against Christian authority and secular law. By the way he is a nice guy.
Argue about your delusions elsewhere.
The short version of the obama speech at west point.We can’t let afghanistan fail until after 2012 election then it can go to hell.
To Reason
Sounds resonable to me
How is it reasonable to waste lives,treasure.Nato already has about 100,000 in country plus afghan troops and private military contractors against around 25,000 taliban.And those guys are gaining ground now what is wrong with that picture.
To JCC
If God or Gods are real and if God or Gods are responsible for the writing of the Torah then the only explanation for the garbage contained in the Torah and New Testament is that the Torah was written to full fill the Bible Code and nothing more.
I couldn’t care less about the content of the “code message” or how it was supposedly encrypted. The point I’ve been trying to make to you—that you’re either incapable of comprehending or are simply ignoring for convenience sake—is who the responsible parties are for it? I’ve asked you no less than 3 times, but all you seem interested in (or capable of) is describing how the stupid code supposedly works.
Can you not answer a simple, straight-forward question?—which god or gods do you believe in?
JCC
So why? Is the name, image and persona of the God that I believe in important to the issues that we are discussing. The difference between a code and the message that full fills that code. If the Code is Real then I would consider the Code to be divine in nature, but whether the code is divine in nature or not, does not mean that the Torah’s teachings are divine in nature. If God or Gods wrote the Torah then it was written to full fill the Code not because the Torah’s contents are divine.
As for the God that I accept I would not have a clue as to whether he/she/it had anything to do with the Torah or the Code, my faith in my God is based solely upon the personal proofs given to me to verify his/her/it’s existence on a personal level. I do not know any actual facts about him/her/it beyond the belief that he/she/it exists. I am rather sure though that if he/she/it wanted others to believe in him/her/it, that those people would be given the personal proofs and evidence needed to believe in him/her/it.
But if it will soothe you I will state that the Bible Codes are as invalid and fraudulent as the Holy Books that it is based on. So can we move back to the real issue which is that the Torah and Christian bible are full of contradictions, inconsistencies, and are in no way infallible or divine in nature as are the religious faiths that use these books to establish their false claims to divine knowledge and authority.
To JCC
Let me see what God or Gods do I believe in, I believe in the God that brought me into the Faith of a God Hood the God that gave me the proofs and evidence that I needed to believe in. A God with relatively few laws or commandments, most of which were taught by Jesus in public before the Jews, Buddha’s teachings, Malcolm X’s teachings (after Mecca) or Gandhi’s teachings. Do Unto Others as you would have them do unto you, do no harm to others, do not consider yourself worthy for all fall short. As you would have people treat you treat others in the same. Give to he/she who asks and then forget that you have given. Feel compassion for all for you are a day away from being one who needs compassion from others.
Judge not or you yourself will be judged. And by whatever measure you judge another is the measure by which you will be judged. Whatever you do unto another will be done unto you. Really simple stuff really, with a teacher like Jesus it amazes me that Christianity could take such a gift from God as Jesus was and turn him into one of the greatest evils this world has ever seen. You took something pure like Jesus’ teachings and turned them into blood read, You turned what should have been a gift from God into the greatest evil that Satan could imagine.
If you would like a reason for why I hate Christianity the way that I do and would love to be the downfall of it, it is because you have taken one of Gods greatest gifts and turned that gift into one of the greatest evils ever seen on this earth. I have more respect for a heaping pile of steaming cow dung then I do for Christianity. Let’s compare our Faiths trials, why don’t you tell me of the greatest thing that you have done for your God the greatest price you paid, and I will tell you mine.
Because it’s at the core of your worldview, character and motivation?
Let me get this straight; you’re seriously asserting that if God wrote the Torah, then its contents are not divine?
Could you give me an example of a “personal proof” that this god gave you to “verify its existence on a personal level?”
But in the immediately preceding sentence, you just said that this god has given you “proof” of its existence. So how on the one hand can you have “proof” of its existence, yet on the other, “not know of any actual facts about him?”
Have you not encountered anyone else who has been given these same “personal proofs” of its existence as you?
Huh? Aren’t you the same person who said:
so, which is it?
Well, first ,Christians aren’t called to “do things for God.” Christianity isn’t like Islam, Mormonism, Hinduism or Buddhism; God doesn’t keep a tally sheet on “good deeds.” Rather, we’re called to live and do things with Him. So, putting your question in its proper perspective, the greatest thing I’ve done for God has been to live with His spirit in me—seeking His council and striving for obedience. As for the “greatest price [I’ve] paid,” that would be the conscious decision to surrender of my will to His.
And you?
To JCC
What is at the core of my world view, character is Christianity. While before I came into the Faith I simply had a mild dislike for Christianity and its abuses, I was not concerned enough to really worry about them or take action against them. After being brought into the Faith and I actually became aware that at least one God was real. My world view and character was formed long before this event. Once I was brought into the Faith I became a Christian looking for answers to what had happened. The answers I found showed me that the God that had brought me into the Faith had nothing to do with Christianity or the Bible.
As a Christian I went to church and read the bible and learned the teachings of Jesus. But as I read the Bible it made no sense whatsoever. The contradictions and inconsistencies were obvious, so I began writing down those contradictions and inconsistencies and they became my book. The public teachings of Jesus before the Jews are in contradiction to most of the O/T and to his apostles and is completely inconsistent with Christian history. So about the only thing that my being brought into the Faith accomplished was to motivate me into leaving Christianity and giving me the necessary information to challenge them.
One more time, if the Torah was written to validate the code, then the content of the Torah is not valid it is simply filler used to allow the code to be validated, if the code is valid to begin with. The Torah is invalidated by its own content; even if the code did not exist the content of the Torah is invalidated by its own content. If God or Gods had a hand in writing the Torah then it was written to full fill the code. If God or Gods wrote the Torah to full fill the code, this does not make the content of the Torah divinely inspired teachings.
If someone had a code and needed to write a story to allow this code to work and wrote a Harry Potter story that allowed the code to function the story then validates the code, but the story is not valid. That is all the Torah is, it is a story book that was written to validate the code, the story is not valid. For me to consider the Torah to be divine in nature it would have to be without flaws, errors, contradictions or inconsistencies. It has all of these in abundance, it is not divine in nature.
Our family has a long history concerning Guardian Angels, and I could recount dozens of incidents, I have fallen down a cliff and spent 5 ½ hrs crawling out of the mountains during a rain storm so bad that it flooded 3 of the 4 gates at the Army post I was stationed at, a car accident in which a car made a left turn in front of me while traveling at 45 mph with no seat belt. A 65 mph truck rollover, our entire family history is made up of such stories where someone should have died or been seriously injured and walked away from them.
So prior to coming into the Faith I was probably Agnostic I had a belief in God but no clear cut name, image or persona, other then the belief that God could not be as Christians claimed Him to be. I came into the Faith while going through some dark times and was at a friends Choir concert at a major black church in east L.A. CA. I went into the church as I had been and came out 180 degree about face. That is when I became a Christian and tried to figure out what had happened to me. It was not a specific incident but a complete personality change.
I take it your God has never touched your soul. But since all Christians claim a individual relationship with their God whether they have one or not, let’s assume that your God has touched your soul. What information did your God give to you directly through visions, did he speak to you mouth to mouth, or did He simply give you the feeling of confirmation of His existence. And then you used the words of the bible or the words of your preachers to give a name, image and persona to fill in the blanks of (I am here).
My God touched my soul and said (I am here) and then allowed me to search and fill in the blanks, do I believe I have more details of this God yes but these details are derived from the reading and studying not because I spoke mouth to mouth with my God or because I have been given visions. My God gave me the most important information and that is (I am here) everything else will fall into place in time. The only thing that I know for sure is that a God touched my soul is not the God of the Jews, Christians or Moslems.
I have meet many people who have had a God touch their souls and who said (I am here) some of these people are even Jesus followers. Some are just everyday normal Theists or Agnostics. While every relationship is personal and individual there is a common denominator among those who have truly had their souls touched by a God or Gods, and that denominator is the knowledge that one should not judge another, take negative actions against others, do unto others as they would have others do unto them.
True Followers of a God or Gods generally follow the public teachings of Jesus before the Jews or Buddha or Gandhi or even Malcolm X after he went to Mecca, these are the people who are truly God or Gods children, pupils or teachers. The followers of any God that allows harmful action to be taken against others or who force their beliefs upon others not of their beliefs are evil and satanic in nature.
Yes I am the same person who said that the Bible Codes are invalid after saying that if the Bible Codes are real it must be divine in nature. I said both of these things simply because I have no vested interest in the Bible Codes, if the Bible Codes exist as fact then it is simply a curiosity which verifies the existence of a God or Gods, it provides no teachings or any information of importance other then the verification for the existence of God or Gods. I already have that verification so the code has no importance to me. If my denying the validity of the code makes you feel more comfortable then I have no problem in denouncing it.
You gave me a standard Christian answer, which is no surprise. I should have asked you for your testimony instead my mistake. But you asked me about mine though you yourself gave nothing. So this is one of my testimonies I was driving thru Tennessee I was in a truck speed restriction of 55 mph that I did not know was a truck restriction so I was doing 75 mph and was ticketed. To be ticketed for doing 20 mph over the posted speed limit is an automatic suspension of my license if convicted. I was put under a safety hold the moment I reported the ticket. And my co driver drove us back into our terminal in CA.
I had told my supervisors that I had considered this job to be a gift of God, and I could not understand why my God would give me such a gift in a job and then let me lose it in such a way. The only answer I could come up with is that I had been sitting on my book for nearly a year doing nothing with it. So while I was sitting on a safety hold I cashed out my savings accounts and paid $12,750 to publish my book.
So while I was looking at the loss of my commercial drivers license and a job paying me about $55,000 gross a year. I spent $12,750 dollars to publish a book that sold maybe 7 copies. But 9 months later I got the ticket expunged and reapplied to my company and was rehired 1 month before a hiring freeze was put into effect. With no lose of pay. By the time I had my truck roll over I was earning $65,000 a year.
Now granted finding the silver lining after the roll over has been a trial, I have not lost my Faith. My dad died of a massive heart attack and my mom went through 3 different cancer surgeries in a two month period all were class 1 with no signs of spreading. As I said my family has a history of coming thru things that should have killed them but did not.
As I said I can easily bring down Christianity all it takes is backing. I am a Theist who is a X Christian, I accept that Jesus was a man of God but not God, and I can prove that the Bible lies, and that Christianity which is built upon those lies is false. Defeating Christianity is not hard, it only takes the resources to mount the campaign the information and knowledge is easily come by.
I have been given divine confirmation that at least one God exists and I can put my testimony against any Christians testimony and win. All it takes is the backing to let me go toe to toe with Christianity and force a head long battle that I am sure to win. I am sorry to the Atheists in this group that this post is far longer then I usually post.
Sounds like your beliefs are pretty much like founding fathers of USA.Are you a freemason.Have you ever looked at the beliefs of Arius a bishop in the early church.
To Reason
Yup our Founding Fathers were some pretty sharp cookies especially for the age they were living in. To create a secular nation while governments all over the world were either being dictated to by religious fanatics or were dictating to the religions, we got very lucky.
From what I understand of the freemasons is that they recruit from the upper levels of society unfortunately I have never been in that level. While I have never heard anything about them that I would consider negative, and their basic beliefs from what I understand is the complete opposite of wanting or attempting to create an elitist dictatorship, but just the opposite, they want freedom for all.
It is just coincidence that I share the views of the founding fathers or of the freemasons, it is just that great minds think alike. LOL, to me it is simply common sense.
Dude, no god gave you that job, a persondid. And no one “let” you lose it but yourself. YOU chose to drive 20 MPH over the speed limit. Ignorance is no excuse. As a professional driver, it is your JOB to be aware of such things. And if you were doing 20 over, you probably thought you could go 65, which still would have been speeding. You’d probably done this many times, and this time you just happened to get caught. Take responsibility for your own choices and actions, Mark.
You were lucky to get the job back, but then you rolled your truck. I suspect more irresponsible driving there. But you can’t find the silver lining? How about you’re still alive? How about you didn’t hurt anyone else? (Assumption, since you didn’t mention it.)
Seriously, if I believed in gods, I’d think yours was trying to tell you to look for another way to earn a living- or maybe to be more conscientious in your chosen line of work before you kill yourself or someone else.
Oh, jcc’s god has touched him. In fact, he sold his house for him! Glory be. jcc never mentioned if his god took a standard realtor’s commmision, or if he was satisfied with the usual 10% he always demands.
Oh my poor, dear karen. How many more times will you try to milk that same old deliberate lie? Here, once again, let me set the record straight for you: Despite the fact that He is sovereign, I’ve never claimed that “God sold my house” here. What I have claimed (and I continue to stand by that claim)is that it was His providence that kept it from selling the first time I put it on the market–thereby enabling me to be in far better financial shape for when the time did come.
Are you physically incapable of retaining that fact or do you simply “repress” that terribly inconvenient memory?
& the crazy just keeps on comin’:
So little mouse’s Dawg intercedes to help him financially, won’t fix his dad, won’t fix his headaches, & war, poverty, & children starving to death are far lower priorities than little mouse’s wallet.
Sheesh. Can anybody get that kind of divine service, or is it just for the elite few?
To Karen
When I reference God or Gods I reference personal beliefs, unlike Christians I know full well that there is no physical or verifiable evidence to support such concepts as God or Gods. A God Hood belief is nothing more then ones personal opinion concerning a subject outside of the physical realm. If God or Gods do not exist then no harm is done if one believes in God or Gods. If God or Gods do exist, then no harm is done. A theist belief so long as it is held personal and individual and as being a personal opinion is no threat nor is harmful to others.
The problem with Theist beliefs is when you have the Jews, Islam or Christianity who determine that only their Theist beliefs are valid and are based upon the one true and living God and that this entitles them to take negative actions against others who do not share those beliefs. Including the Islamic and Christian tendency to go after those who are of their faiths but do not dot the I ‘s or cross the t ’s as the dominate cult believes they should be done and labels them heretic’s. Theist beliefs that are personal and individual are not a threat because they are merely personal opinions. Theist beliefs where the followers of that belief believe that they have divine authority over people outside of their belief system are dangerous and should be challenged, hence my dislike for Christianity.
As for my speeding ticket, the posted speed limit was 70 mph. There was a marked construction zone speed of 55 mph. The construction zone ended prior to the down hill side of a mountain I assumed that the posted speed limit of 70 mph was back in force, and I held the truck to 75 mph. Even when the officer was writing the ticket I was not overly concerned because I thought it was for going 5 mph over the speed limit apparently I had missed the truck restriction sign after the construction area ended. In all prior times the posted speed limit was 70 mph. I screwed up and have no problem with that. It was not until later that I read the ticket and discovered it was for 20 mph over the posted truck restriction.
My personal opinion of the ticket was that my God got tired of me sitting on my book and doing nothing with it so he freed up the money to get it published by having me close out my savings which paid for the publishing of the book and to cover the 9 months I was off, once it was published, I was able to get the ticket expunged by writing a letter to the judge, and taking full responsibility for the mistake but that it was a mistake only and that it was an aberration and not a normal part of my driving. Once I had his letter in hand I had to go six months with no tickets and at the end of the six months my ticket was expunged, and I was rehired by the company who one month later put a hiring freeze into effect.
If my God Hood belief is just a figment of my imagination then I have the luck of the Irish on my side. As for my roll over, it happened in Oklahoma on an unmarked curve at night, with no rumble strips and no reflectors on the guard rail I looked away from the road for a couple of seconds to throw away a can, and looked up to see the guard rail just in front of my bumper, went into a 20 ft. ditch the tractor rolled onto the drivers side twisting it’s frame so that the front trailer complete flipped onto it’s roof. The roof of the tractor was resting against a barbed wire fence on the edge of a drop off leading to a grove of trees 50 ft further down an embankment.
And the tractor stopped about a foot from a raise concrete man hole access. The front axle ended up facing front to back instead of side to side, the engine mounts failed and was partially into the passenger side floor, I climbed out of the passenger door window (new sunroof) within a minute I used my blue tooth to call 911 because I had no idea where my phone was, and the second vehicle behind me was a highway patrol vehicle. While I was uninjured my co driver was in the sleeper unit, luckily he had his safety harness hooked up. The fire fighters said that if it had not been for the harness my co driver would have simply flown through the cab and through the window and right into the barb wire fence a couple of feet away. While I was pretty much unscathed my co driver took a pretty bad beating,
There was a time when I was traveling at 45 mph coming up to the intersection with a green light and a car made a left in front of me. The impact pushed the radiator into and folded it over the engine, the front bumper was resting on top of my front wells and it was before the set belt laws came into affect and I was not wearing a seat belt. Or another time as a teenager riding a Moped and a pickup truck decided to make a right turn into a parking lot through me.
I fell down a cliff on the back side of Cheyenne mountain in Colorado and fractured my right ankle, badly sprained my left ankle and both wrists and cut my forehead open when the cliff started using my head as a basketball on the way down. I had to climb down 5 water falls, that had been dried up when I started but had turned into raging rivers with a thunder storm that closed 3 of the 4 gates into my post. And finally was able to crawl my way down to where some cabins were to get a lift into post.
Your right there are no Gods but there are some damn helpful leprechauns who seem to like me and my family. Except for when I am gambling they seem to disappear. Our entire family history is made up of such incidents including one when I was an infant, we had run out of gas, my dad walked down the road to get some gas and a drunk driver rear ended our station wagon parked on the shoulder at 80 mph our skid marks went for 2 hundred feet our gas tank was ripped into two. One of my brothers was ejected out through the open back window and into the traffic lanes and into the path of another car. When it stopped the tire treads were inches from my brothers head. The worst injuries among us was merely glass cuts.
Yep gotta love those Leprechauns.
More crazy, this time from Mark Holland:
So…this differs from JCC’s hubris how, exactly? In both instances, you both seem to think that this divine being, who can’t be bothered to feed hungry children w/manna from the heavens, eliminate or even stop wars, protect the innocent, or prevent innocent people from being slaughtered (Darfur), plays some weirdly intricate interconnected chess game where you translate things that would happen anyways as some kind of mystical tic-tac-toe as personal messages?
I mean, I’m not crazy about an impersonal uncaring universe, but that doesn’t mean I retreat into a comic book world to deny the reality of it.
Something’s bludgeoned the shit out of his cerebral cortex, that’s for sure.
KA
I cannot speak for JCC’s intent. But where is the harm in my believing that a God or Gods, has protected me in the past. Whether those God or Gods exist or not does not matter. I do not bring up my experiences to prove the existence of God or Gods because short of a God or Gods appearing doing whatever it is that Gods do to prove they are Gods. No proof of God or Gods can be given by any theist. Because there is proof that can be given by second hand means. Only God or Gods can give such proof and since non of them have ever given proof then they are only as some put, invisible sky daddy’s. But if such beliefs are only imaginary what harm does this cause you?
As long as a invisible sky daddy belief is personal and individual and is put forth as being nothing more then a personal belief, where is the harm in such a belief. Why the attack dog mentality on any idea that is different from your own, you may be an Atheist but you act more like an evangelical or fundamentalist Christian. Attack that which is different, attack that which is not as you wish it to be. Yep you almost sound like a religious fanatic.
As for the poor staving children, is there some requirement that God or Gods must interact with the physical world. If my beliefs are right then the physical realm belongs to us and is our responsibility it is not God or Gods responsibility to feed the starving children or help the hopeless it is our responsibility to do such things. Not theirs, while JCC might claim that his imaginary sky daddy, claims dominion over the earth with it’s demands and dictates, the fact is that there is no evidence whatsoever that any God or Gods have taken direct action in the physical world.
To the best of my knowledge my invisible sky daddy has no commands, dictates or threats. While I believe that He does intercede on my behalf at times that what ever He or others Gods do, if they are even real is interact upon individuals not groups or nationalities or global interactions. And if God or Gods make no requirements, have no commands, or dictates why would such a God or Gods clean up a global mess that we should be cleaning up.
You paint all Theists with the same tar brush and yet not all Theists are Christian, Islamic, Jewish or other dictatorial belief systems. You should be actively recruiting non Christian theists into your organization, they have even more to lose from a Christian power grab then Atheists do. But fanatics are fanatics regardless of the title they give themselves. So this is not to likely, there are a lot of groups out there that have the same end goals as Atheists do. But to you it is simply, nope I think there crazy, nope I do not like the way they dress, nope I do not like the way they smell, nope those, well you get the point. I guess you will never be accused of being tolerant.
Mark Holland
If your belief has no consequence then there is no harm. But if the belief has no consequence then it does no good either.
Sounds like a job for a high-quality god-condom.
Hey KA, do you think gawd appreciated being dragged away from the poor starving children to intercede in JCC’s real estate issue? If I were a goddess, I’d be pretty resentful. It would definetly be an, “Awwww maaan!” moment.
LOL!
Rolled his eyes & said, “Not this schmuck again!”
That is, if he were there.
MarkH,
I swear you are more long winded than me. But, let me throw a vote in your corner. Some fools imagine that they see reality, when in truth, we see reality through a lens of our knowledge and experience. It is no more arrogant to say, “Absolutely, there is a god”, than it is to say, “Absolutely, there is no god.” Neither is based in scientific proof. Both are presumptions based upon intuition.
While most who would presume divinity choose to adopt christianity, buddism, hinduism, islam, or even hybrids like voodoo, the revelations of scientific evidence make them all seem ridiculous.
But, the other side of the coin is that science cannot explain the nature of the “big bang” nor explain why they cannot find an epicenter to this event. Such an explosion should have sent the galaxies speeding away from that event in a predictable pattern. No such pattern exists. And an assumption is made that the further a galaxy is away from ours, that based upon the red shift, the faster it is moving away from us. Like we know what millions of light years of gas and dust clouds do to light wavelenghts, we assume the universe is involved in an excelerating expansion. More like kindergartners playing with dolls of unicorns. Pretending to understand.
You can reject the archaeic ideas of the god’s agenda without arriving at a presumptuous conclusion about the origin of the universe. And while you may feel like you are mentally liberated by atheism, even atheist icons like Richard Dawkins don’t call themselves 100 percent, or pure atheists, because they know that beyond quantifiable formula, the rest is intuitive conjecture.
NeoWolfe
Nonsense. Your failing is that you start with the assumption that the word “god” and “existence” are compatible. You can’t even ponder such questions of existence with meaning until properties are assigned to “gods”. If you can’t tell me the properties of a god then I simply don’t know what it is that I am asserting does or does not exist. Most atheists that I know simply refuse to tolerate such insufferable nonsense.