Dear Jews,
Hi! How are you? I am fine. Let’s talk ethics.
According to this article, Jews are concerned about their image and want to shed their bad reputation.
Jewish leaders are calling on U.S. rabbis to emphasize the faith’s ethical requirements in their sermons during Rosh Hashana in response to recent financial scandals involving its members, including Bernard Madoff.
Jews have been embarrassed the past year by the arrest of former Wall Street tycoon Madoff, who is serving a 150-year prison sentence for defrauding investors out of billions of dollars, and several rabbis who were arrested in July on money laundering charges, said Richard Joel, president of Yeshiva University in New York.
Widely distributed images showed them being led into the FBI building in Newark in rabbinical garb and handcuffs didn’t help.
“It’s troubling,” said Rabbi Moshe Kletenik, president of the Rabbinical Council of America, which comprises about 1,000 rabbis in the U.S., Canada and Israel. “Ethical living is as significant a part of leading a religious life as ritual law.”
Now, I’m all for ethical living, but I have a major problem with this article. This article is all about reflecting, self observance, and reputation. That’s all well and good, but there is far more involved here. ACTION!
Ethics is not about thought, it’s about activity. The best thoughts in the world are useless if they do not lead to actions taken by an individual.
Case-in-point, check out this article about rabbis raping children.
“If you’re a pedophile, just go to one of the orthodox communities. You’re probably safest there,” said New York State Assemblyman Dov Hikind, himself an Orthodox Jew. “It’s sad for me to say that, but it’s true.”
Did you notice how the first article didn’t even mention the child rape problem? Did you notice how that was completely over-swept by the whole Madoff issue? THIS IS YOUR ISSUE! The problem with the Jewish community is that you aren’t dealing with the major issues. This is not about YOUR reputation. It’s about YOUR actions (or lack thereof).
If your god is real, I ask you to consider what He thinks of pedophile rabbis. If you’re the type of person who thinks “Well, it’s in the Torah so it’s good for me”, please stop reading this blog — you are wasting my bandwidth. If you think “well, it would be worse for my community if rabbis were arrested” then please remember this well, you are no better than the Catholics, because that’s exactly their reasoning as well.
If, however, you think your god is displeased by men raping your kids, then perhaps you should do much more than ‘consider’ and ‘contemplate.’ Perhaps you should make it clear that this is intolerable by teaching your kids to come forward if they are molested by anyone, even a rabbi. And, when a kid complains, turn the rabbi in, press charges, and put the scum in jail. This is the ethical thing to do. I would wager this is what your god wants.
If this tastes bad to you, consider how bad it must be for the children involved, and the future children who will be involved. You have an ethical duty to protect the children of your community. They are more important than your rabbis. Indeed, one child is more important than ALL your rabbis combined.
Don’t allow this issue to be swept away or blanched over by other smaller and less relevant issues like Madoff. Remind yourselves, your friends, and your rabbis that YOU are responsible for EVERYONE’s kids, and that YOU will put pedophile rabbis in jail. Thou shalt not sit idly by.
Stay tuned for Yom Kippour, when my blog title will be “Hey, why is my kid home from school”.
I would like for the US Justice Dept. to take a good long look at the closed door dealings of all major religious groups in the US of A. There have been some arrests, trials, convictions and even some imprisoning of sexually abusive clergy members, but obviously not enough, in the face of the overwhelming amount of abuse that’s apparently happened.
If it wasn’t religion that these groups ride on, I bet our federal government would be on them like a hawk. Like Elian Gonzales hiding in a closet. They simply wouldn’t be able to hide long. But no! Our government seems to have a soft spot for the clergy.
Christian or Jewish or Muslim or whatever religion, it doesn’t matter to me. No religion should ever shield a predator from the law. Those charged with the duty to enforce the law should never have their eyes blinded by the obviously fraudulent idea that having a religion makes one a better person. It doesn’t.
September 21
On SEPTEMBER 21, 1924, America’s 30th President, Calvin Coolidge,
addressed the Holy Name Society in Washington, D.C., saying:
“The worst evil that could be inflicted upon the youth of the land
would be to leave them without restraint and completely at the mercy
of their own uncontrolled inclinations.
Under such conditions education would be impossible, and all orderly
development intellectually or morally would be hopeless.”
Calvin Coolidge continued:
“The Declaration of Independence…claims…the ultimate source of
authority by stating…they were… ‘appealing to the Supreme Judge
of the World for the rectitude of’ their ‘intentions.’…
The foundations of our independence and our Government rests upon
basic religious convictions.
Back of the authority of our laws is the authority of the Supreme
Judge of the World, to whom we still appeal.”
President Calvin Coolidge concluded:
“It seems to me perfectly plain that the authority of law, the right
to equality, liberty and property, under American institutions, have
for their foundation reverence for God.
If we could imagine that to be swept away, these institutions of our
American government could not long survive.”
Im glad that Dave picked up on this story. Maybe there is some hope for balanced covergae of all religions in this blog after all.
Alex…don’t hold your breath.
Ethical living? Who’s ethics? Based upon what?
Dave…you’re all for ethical living. As an atheist, what written code do you follow and why should anyone else?
phreedum
Most people, aside from psychopaths, have an innate and universal sense of ethics arising from our evolution as a social species which does not need to be written down and enforced with fear.
Alex…really? And it’s all the same? Hardly…
Many on your side see nothing wrong with sucking the brains out of a 9 month old unborn child while many in the Islamic world see nothing wrong with stoning women or queers…
So exactly who’s ethical values are superior?
Personally I believe all of the examples above are wrong…
Thanks for the answer…
Actually very few people are comfortable with very late term abortions (“partial birth abortions”) in spite of what the pro life propaganda machine proclaims. The procedure is so incredibly rare to begin with yet the histrionics surrounding it make it seem as if it is a commonly performed procedure done in hospitals everyday across our country. It isnt.
As for muslims executing women and gays it is only because religious indoctrination has so twisted peoples sense of right and wrong that these things are allowed to happen. Its the same reason why women and gays the world over suffer needlessly at the hands of xianity, judaism, and hinduism. Religion poisons everything.
“Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it, you’d have good people doing good things and evil people doing bad things, but for good people to do bad things, it takes religion.”
Steven Weinberg
Phreedm
A supernatural being didn’t give humans ethics.The fact that values have changed even in the christian faith proves it-once slavery okay now not.
off topic
moody just put out a report saying depending on the state home values will take anywhere from 2018to2030 to fully recover.
The following is a list of useful abortion statistics derived from pro-abortion sources.
WORLDWIDE
Number of abortions per year: Approximately 42 Million
Number of abortions per day: Approximately 115,000
as for the part about religion making people bad, I know my Christianity does not try to make me claim im a good person, ill be the first to admit it, but it gives me hope that God will make me good.
Why? Why isn’t the ethical code of any religion superior to another?
Are we to say that it’s ok to have multiple ethical codes?
Why are the ethical codes of NAMBLA wrong? Why is incest wrong? Even in today’s “enlightened world” I can point to cultures around the world where both are fully accepted…why would your views be superior to theirs?
reason says:
Fair enough…that’s what you believe…now prove it.
jones,
How many of those abortions are “partial birth abortions”? .17% thats how many. Most of those procedures are used to extract a stillborn fetus or one that has severe birth defects or poses a risk to the mothers life. Save your hysterical propaganda for an audience which doesnt bother checking the facts.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intact_dilation_and_extraction
godless sodomite says:
Wow…and you use Wikipedia? If you actually used a credible source you’d know how wrong your facts are…
But even if it were only 100 nation wide…it’s still a blot against our society…
Phreedumbfromreality, comparing an adult couple to a pedaphilic relationship is such a tired line.
1.Homosexuals have the SAME PERCENTAGE of peds as straights. Wanna play guess the preists’ count?
2. Exactly what is the christian code of ethics? According to Jesus at the temple, it isn’t making money off your religion. According to Creflo Dollar, it is. Which one do you think it is?
3. Pedaphilia is wrong because it is an inheriantly exploitive relationship. So is incest. And rape.
4. It is perfectly possible to be moral without religion, just like it is perfectly possible to be immoral with religion. It does not matter how many agrumentum a la hitler you play, moral superiority is the claim of religion, not atheism. A bad atheist proves bad atheists can exist. A bad theist proves religion doesn’t make you a better person.
augie…
How about actually trying to follow the line of discussion instead of your irrational emotional outbursts…
At least you admit that NAMBLA’s agenda is pro-pedophile…
And yes…show me statistics comparing queers to priest who are pedophiles?
Phreedm: You should read some about the evolution of morality. There is an extensive scientific literature about how morality evolved. Two recent books summarize these ideas: “The Altruism Equation” edited by Dugatkin, and “The Evolution of Morality” by Richard Joyce. I understand that you seem to have a god-belief but am not sure if you accept that we are the product of evolution. Clearly for those of us who do not believe in gods, there are no alternatives to the idea that morality evolved. Anyway, I challenge you to read some of this. We should all be open to reading ideas from “the other side”.
phreedm
if a god gave us ethics why do we have so many diff codes is there more than one god.why have ethical values changed over time did the god not get right and had to keep trying.i see no evidence that a god gave us ethics.
reason says:
Do you really have to ask that question? The answer is all over this blog…
reason…do you purposely write without punctuation? We all know there is a code on correct writing. Why do you create your own “code”?
phreedm
Proper english is for work.Here i’m relaxing.
Even more off-topic read a article about swiss health insurance[private system].They seem to have a very good system better than ours.
Right on Dave.
phreedm-good question how about the state legal code for a basis.i presume you use the bible which in part served as the legal code for the hebrews.Then the clergy/king created law/commandments 613 i believe, now we elect lawmakers but the result is the same laws/commandments with the ethical thing to do is obey.
Gee Dave, could you pick a safer thing to criticize jews about? The Madoff scandal is huge. The war crimes in Gaza are huge. Zionist influence in the Bush admin was huge. Hurting kids is huge but don’t try to hide all the rest of this suffering behind these children. It appears that your are trying to do just that. If you are not then prove it by blogging about these important issues as well.
You’re just not happy unless Dave posts exactly what you think he should post, are you?
I would settle for an unbiased spokesperson. Is that too much to ask? Where’s Ellen Johnson?
I rest my case, there is nothing that can be done to appease Whutthole, except raising the nazi flag and endorsing Palestinian terrorism. Pathetic.
NeoWolfe
what says:
Agreed!!! When is the world going to insist that Hezbollah and Fatah stop their indiscriminate attacks against civilians of a sovereign nation?
I can’t believe I’m actually agreeing with “What do I know”…
Who but the immoral would even attempt Phreeky’s prestidigitation with war crimes?
I don’t get the idea of criticizing “Jews”. Seems like a pretty silly thing to do. About as silly as criticizing any other group. What Madoff did was simply one man screwing a lot of people. If there were Jewish people in the Bush administration trying to influence policy, that is simply some Jewish people doing that. If the Israeli government commits war crimes, don’t blame “Jews”.
This idea that the actions of a few people, who happen to be of a particular group, should be generalized to the whole group, is simply prejudice.
Sgrill
Pay attention. Nobody here is doing the generalization thing.
what says: It does seem to me that you were calling for more criticism of “jews” Maybe I misunderstood your point.
Ellen Johnson is being held prisoner in a dreidel factory.
Dave knows this yet refuses to write a mere gig or two on the subject. Once again the balance of our sacred atheist blog site has been impeded by Dave’s refusal to call a spade a spade…or a kike, or a christ killer, hook nose,Abby, hebe, hymie,ikeymo and yid.
Come on Dave.
gM…I may not have agreed with Ellen Johnson, but at least she remained focused on atheist issues…
The current group leading AA has taken a huge “Left” turn to be in competition with KOOK Left Wing web sites like “The Daily Kos” and “Democrat Undergroung”…
And they have simply turned supporting the “myth” as a fund raiser similar to the way Jessie Jackson turned civil rights into a cash cow for his “Rainbow Coalition”…
And yet they still remain blind as to why membership is dwindling…
“Ethics is not about thought, it’s about activity. The best thoughts in the world are useless if they do not lead to actions taken by an individual.”
Quite right. Like the mutilation of children by circumcision. That is child abuse, mutilation, and a crime. I know that it is not only Jews that engage in this barbaric practice.
I once wrote to Amnesty International and asked why they don’t campaign against it as they do female mutilation. They responded that no big international organization, like the UN, had taken a position on it. Since when have they waited for a “higher” authority to take a position?
Phreedom is a jokester as usual, “Why? Why isn’t the ethical code of any religion superior to another?
Are we to say that it’s ok to have multiple ethical codes?”
There have always been multiple ethical codes and there will probably always be. Anyway, has anyone ever seen a religious ethical code that made any sense?
Actually we all share an amazingly consistent and innate sense of right and wrong as a species. Marc Hausers book, “Moral Minds: How Nature Designed Our Universal Sense of Right and Wrong” is a brilliant treatise on this topic.
http://www.amazon.com/Moral-Minds-Nature-Designed-Universal/dp/0060780703
I think its very telling that jewish leaders recognise the horrible PR that jews have and that the stereotypes of jews as greedy and arrogant money and power hungry tribalists is so pervasive that they have to make an official statement urging members of gods chosen people to behave themselves. Jews are always crying about how the world is so anti semitic but I think that the first step to solving this problem is a critical examination of jewish behaviour by jews themselves. Hopefully this open letter will spur some of this.
Jews are no worse than any other people. Yes there are spurts when you see Jews in the news but there were plenty of non-Jews involved in the financial crisis. There were plenty of non-Jews involved in the scandal in NJ.
We don’t have an entitlement complex, just a wish to be treated fairly, like other religions.
Most Jews I know (and being a Jew I know a lot) are fabulous members of society. But just like with Christians and Atheists and Muslims, the bad ones, the fanatical ones are publicized. I am not excusing their actions and they deserve to be punished but I think you are not allowing for human error. I have a really hard time believing that none of the commentators on this site have ever made a mistake. Thank goodness it hasn’t been as bad as some of the ones mentioned here.
As for the pedophilia. Yes it is a reality, as it is a reality in many communities. There are deviants anywhere. And it really is a sad situation that it is rife in Orthodox communities but that is because the adherents of those movements hold strong to the idea that allowing outsiders in will hurt them and in turn they hurt themselves. But there are many, many pedophiles who aren’t Jewish or Christian… many who even espouse Atheist beliefs. So no human is perfect.
But don’t paint a group with a flawed brush. I don’t do it to Atheists or blame all Christians for the nasty Christians who treated me like hell or all Muslims for the fanatics who cause problems. There will always be a group that leans too far to the left or right regardless of whether or not they believe in G-d.
When PA Nonbelievers had a booth at rural Sunbury PA a few weeks ago, a guy approached us and asked why our bumper stickers (for sale) didn’t criticize Jews. I reviewed the stickers and showed him one that had a Star of David on it, and asked what he was getting at. (PA is a bastion of REAL hate groups.)
Turns out, he’s a New Yorker, visiting a relative in PA, and he was telling me that in Brooklyn, the Hasidic Jews seem to run everything and even have their own “police force”….black cars with rotating lights that show up at auto accidents.
I told him that we don’t really have that problem in PA, but if he could come up with a good slogan, we might get stickers made.
http://www.panonbelievers.org/wp-content/uploads/IMG_4480.jpg
(do you like the way the organizers placed us right in front of the biggest church in town?? that generated a couple of irate letters to the editor–irate at the organizers, not us)
We have other problems in PA, one of which I’ll try to remember to post in a few weeks when it is better to do so. (for reasons I’ll explain later)
That is an awesome photo! A perfect spot for a booth like that. I love how you guys put so many stickers right on the front of the table. Cool!
The negative influence of judaism extends far beyond Brooklyn and should be everyones concern. Jewish arrogance and greed in the illegal land grab in Palestine, aka israel, is the single most destabilising threat to world peace and Im convinced that WWIII will be fought over it (no mr bush the muslims dont hate our freedom, they hate our absolute support of israel). I dont want to die for the jews in a nuclear flash.
Satanhimself
So let me get this straight. Of the 80 or more bumper stickers that you had on display only one had a star of David on it. Can you provide a link to an image of this bumper sticker? How about all of them?
We get our stickers from evolvefish.com
The one with the Star of Dave(!) is the one that says something like, “If you want a country run by religion, move to Iran.”
September 19
The Lord of the Rings by J.R.R. Tolken tells of man’s lust for “the
ring of power.”
George Washington had that power and twice gave it up.
When King George III asked American-born painter Benjamin West what
Washington planned to do now that he had won the war, West replied
“They say he will return to his farm.”
King George said
“If he does that, he will be the greatest man in the world.”
Washington later served as President and again returned to his farm,
similar to Roman leader Cincinnatus, who twice led Rome’s Republic to
victory in battle then returned to farming.
On SEPTEMBER 19, 1796, the world stood in awe as President George
Washington delivered his Farewell Address, stating:
“Of all the dispositions and habits which lead to political
prosperity, Religion and Morality are indispensable supports.
In vain would that man claim the tribute of Patriotism who should
labor to subvert these great Pillars…
Let us with caution indulge the supposition that morality can be
maintained without religion.”
George Washington continued:
“Reason and experience both forbid us to expect that national
morality can prevail in exclusion of religious principle…
Morality is a necessary spring of popular government…
Who that is a sincere friend to it can look with indifference upon
attempts to shake the foundation?”
___
George Washington continued warning in his Farewell Address:
And of fatal tendency…to put, in the place of the delegated will of
the Nation, the will of a party; – often a small but artful and
enterprising minority…
They are likely, in the course of time and things, to become potent
engines, by which cunning, ambitious, and unprincipled men will be
enabled to subvert the Power of the People and to usurp for the
themselves the reins of Government;
destroying afterwards the very engines which have lifted them to
unjust dominion…
But this leads at length to a more formal and permanent despotism.
The disorders and miseries, which result, gradually incline the minds
of men to seek security and repose in the absolute power of an
Individual… turns this disposition to the purposes of his own
elevation, on the ruins of Public
Liberty…
The spirit of encroachment tends to consolidate the powers of all the
departments in one, and thus to create, whatever the form of
government, a real despotism…
Let there be no change by usurpation…It is the customary weapon by
which free governments are destroyed.
your religion hasnt givin up power for 2000 years…..the moral code should be discussed in a court of law where no religion can substanciate thier claims with current observations….
Yep. These aren’t off-topic posts. No way. Once again it’s not the off that concerns Dave. It’s the topic.
If this farewell address was real, and I haven’t checked yet, then George Washington is reduced to being another idiot in a long line of idiots that promote religion. Nothing more.
Let’s remember that George Washington was a deist. Nevertheless, the speech as described took place. However, in light of our secular constitution, it is as meaningless as the Christian claim today that this country is a Christian Nation founded on Christian principles.
The claim that morality cannot exist without religion is also a foundless claim. Morality existed long before religion came along. Religion incorporated morality into it from already existing ideals. Just as Al Gore made references to having fathered the internet, religion claims that it founded morality.
You’re correct for the most part, but Washington? Not a deist.
Although an officer in the Freemasons there was much dispute about his actual beliefs. Many of his quotations seemed more deist, others christian like in nature. There was nothing conclusive to indicate whethere he was deist, or christian, and he spoke very little about the matter.
He attended a communicant church most of his adult life, albeit was never seen taking any communion.
So…cafeteria xtian most like.
In conclusion I would have to say that yes Mr. Ed and Dave do seem to know more about government than this particular founding father.
substantiate….that is
The rabbi talks about ethical living-is it easier to do during adversity or prosperity.Did the arrogance come before the greed and debased lust or did it come from not getting caught in transgressions.
Wow. This blog just gets worse every time I drop by.
A better reference would be Baron Paul-Henri d’Holbach.
“All religions are ancient monuments to superstition, ignorance, ferocity; and modern religions are only ancient follies.”
(Paul-Henri, baron d’Holbach / 1723-1789)
“If we go back to the beginnings of things, we shall always find that ignorance and fear created the gods; that imagination, rapture and deception embellished them; that weakness worships them; that custom spares them; and that tyranny favors them in order to profit from the blindness of men.”
(Paul-Henri, baron d’Holbach / 1723-1789 / System of Nature / 1770)
You can find at least one of his books, The System of Nature, at the Gutenburg Project.
What is ethical is dynamic, and changes with the times, but in general is moving to a higher and higher standard. A text of absolute rules cannot reflect the evolving set of ethics we follow as the human race. If the bible was the source of our morality, we would all be going around killing children who talk back to their parents, and owning slaves. It just occurred to me I’ve joined the club of people wasting their breath in vain to try and convince a deluded, blithering idiot (Phreedm).
Dave,
I think that was a well written thread head. But, as I have told you on multiple occasions, there is nothing you can say or do that will appease Whutthole, short of reformatting you website to neo-nazism and pro-terrorism. That is his brand of thought.
And I could forgive that before the crap the godless sodomite spews. Forever whining that his demographic is misunderstood and abused, while simultaneously spewing antisemitic bile.
But, I could reluctantly forgive both of them before I could overlook the crap the Phreedumfuck is spouting. Quoting George Washington, a freemason, who believed that never again, in this experiment called America, would religion be given power to repeat the attrocities of the past. That no religion would ever have the power to dictate the affairs of state, which would instead be guided by reason. He was joined in this idea with Benjamin Franklin, Paul Revere, and John Hancock. Add to this that most of the generals who fought the revolution were freemasons, American, French and German. And, while it was a freemason ideal that trolls like Phreedumbfuck be tolerated, it was also their ideal that religion and state don’t mix.
NeoWolfe
Neowolfe
This nation owes a great debt to freemasonry.Creating a republic where religion and state are seperate was revolutionary in of itself.Now the question is do we have still a republic of free men or are we all just subjects of a bloated failing empire?
All empires eventually fall, and all species eventually go extinct. Or at least that is the lesson history teaches us. If humans plan to circumvent that pattern, we better wise up quick. But, at this point, wisdom doesn’t seem to be our strongest asset.
NeoWolfe
Ethics? Are we atheists or not? We can’t go around borrowing from religious value systems and call ourselves atheists. Why don’t we call ourselves something else if we’re going to go down that road?
It is the religious who have co-opted moral value systems. Now many think that only the religious can be moral. I have been told many times by those who would argue with me about morality that I can’t be moral for I am without god. Another mind trap, to keep the religious religious, and to persuade those who do not believe, to believe.
What objective evidence is there to support that assumption?
Also, are there really any evolutionary mechanisms that can produce conscience? or morality? We are essentially no more than animals. So what would be the benefit of a conscience that would , say.. pity the poor..or be opposed to capitol punishment. The poor person and the condemned criminal were not strong enough to care for themselves or escape capture, respectively. (Survival of the fittest, right.) Why do we get angry about “bad” things happening to people and not really bat an eye when a bird catches an insect to eat. We really need to think through our world view a bit more objectively and with a bit less emotion.
It seems when we bring morality and ethics into the equation we’re stepping out into philosophy /theology.
I would suggest the book “Age of Empathy.” I heard an interview with the author on NPR and it sounds like a great book.. In order to understand the questions of – Are there really any evolutionary mechanisms that can produce conscience? OR – So what would be the benefit of a conscience that would , say.. pity the poor..or be opposed to capitol punishment? When living in a small group or society it is an advantage to cooperate, have empathy, an act altruistic towards each other.. It’s next on my list of books to read..
Sorry, I posted a similar thing somewhere else above (having trouble figuring out where posts wind up). Tregg asks if there are evolutionary mechanisms which produce morality. I recommend a recent books summarizing some of the scientific literature “The Evolution of Morality” by Richard Joyce and “The Altruism Equation” by Lee Dugatkin. Very interesting reads. There certainly is an advantage to being nice to those you share genes with. 40K years ago we lived in small groups and there was a good likelihood of sharing genes with many in the group. Thus, we helped ensure survival of our shared genes if we helped each other. A man seeing a drowning child from his tribe should save that child even if there is some risk to him in doing so. There is an equation of how likely he should be to save the child based on the risk and the percent of shared genes. Now the man does not do a calculation to decide whether to save the child. Instead, since there is survival benefit in doing so, the evolution of “niceness” simply happened. Also, interesting discussions about the relationships between sister bees. In addition to that, in a society, one’s stature is raised by, for example, giving food to others. Lots of other ideas including experiments in chimps where it is clear they have a sense of empathy and fairness.
Good topic Dave,
I believe it is deceptive to claim to be ethical and yet strive to follow Gods will ie. the ethics of the old testament.
Ironcally, the closer one is to “Gods law” the the further one is from current law.
Thankfully, in most cases current law “so called mans law” has to be followed first.
Is it not unethical to belong to any group that has a history of killing unbelievers?
How do we as atheists, even use ethics in an argument? Is this circular reasoning, this borrows from the admittance of a moral law and since we evloved to where we are, how can we rely on an ethical view of this to exlplain anything?
Morality, ethics, existed long before religion co-opted them. Don’t fall for the old assertion that atheists have no morality. It isn’t true.
When is before religion? Where did this morality, ethics come from?
Two things of note come to me. Stephen J. Gould appropriately remarked, “There are no shortcuts to moral insight. Nature is not intrinsically anything that can offer comfort or solace in human terms – if only because our species is such an insignificant latecomer in a world not constructed for us. So much the better. The answers to moral dilemmas are not lying out there, waiting to be discovered. They reside, like the kingdom of God, within us – the most difficult and inaccessible spot for any discovery or consensus.”
Of “the kingdom of God” is imagery, but some religious will surely interpret it differently.
Then Stephen Pinker gave a good TED lecture on the history of violence.
http://www.ted.com/talks/steven_pinker_on_the_myth_of_violence.html
Weak – see my post above about living small groups and societies. Morality and ethics are just words.. Individuals 10,000 or 15,000 years ago displayed these characteristics, they had to to survive.. Sure there was conflict within the group and likely resulted in injury or maybe death, but those groups relied on each other for survival so working together was the key. Killing, lying, stealing, these things are still around in the face of religion. It’s the choice of the individual to act morally or ethically. religion is for those who refuse to grow up and take personal responsibility for what they do and how they live thier lives.
Acocording to our world view Shodan, we did not arrive at the present from our beginning by way of working together. Yes, killing, lying, stealing, etc…,have been around, but unless you borrow from the moral law these were only to survive. For instance, animals have no morality. They steal and kill to survive. Survival of the fittest. If we atheist ever expect to further our agenda and live true to our evolutionary world view, we must rid ourselves of these moral ideas or explain where they came from don’t you think.
I’m pretty sure that without working together, first in small groups and later in societies, we wouldn’t be where we are. “They steal and kill to survive. Survival of the fittest.” The competition so frequently refered to in nature, is between individuals of the same species. A lion doesn’t compete with the wildebeast, it competes with other lions. Same with the great apes. The competition is with each other. Rarely does the direct competition between males, when competing for a mate or territory, does the competition result in death… The less dominant will USUALLY give up prior to death thereby preserving diversity within the species.
The root of the problem when trying to explain where “morals” come from is in the role reversal between man and civilization. Civilization, and morals for that matter, are tools. Tools created by man for the good of man. The purpose is to allow a large group of individuals to live within a samll area without undue conflict. Realizing there is less conflict within a herd of sheep than a pack of wolves, society attempts to render sheeplike the greatest killer the world has ever known, man. The role reversal occurs when society gets large enough that it shapes the indiviual. We then loose sight of how we got here, thinking that we are more important than we really are. “Good” and “evil” are relative. Really, there is no “good” or “evil” there is only what we describe as such. Evolutionary biologist have done a good job of eplaining where “morals” come from and it’s not religion, its inate..
It’s hard to tell if your opposed to the hypocrisy of the Jewish community or to pedophilia. Probably both. It’s ironic that the Jewish religion was unique in the ancient world in that it did not practice sexual behaviors like pedophilia and homosexuality. Wouldn’t it be better to encourage excepting and embracing these practices, rather than condemning them. I mean, they are obviously rejecting their own religion by practicing these things. If the goal is to free them from their false ideologies, then encouraging them to be more open and supportive of these “deviations” would serve us better.