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In my view, one of the great immoralities of the Christian religion is the ability to ask forgiveness and receive it for even the most heinous of crimes. A brutal murderer can ask for forgiveness and accept Jesus into his heart seconds before the switch is pulled and he gets to go to Heaven, but the 12-year-old little girl that he killed that was a practicing Wiccan goes to Hell. It’s immoral theology.
Governor Sanford is using the Forgiveness Doctrine to his advantage. Perhaps in the hopes of salvaging a presidential run in 2012?
Sanford wrote an opinion piece in which he says that his god will change him so he can emerge more humble and a more “effective leader.” That last part may be the key to understanding why he is going through all this trouble and refusing to resign from his governorship.
“It’s in the spirit of making good from bad that I am committing to you and the larger family of South Carolinians to use this experience to both trust God in his larger work of changing me, and from my end, to work to becoming a better and more effective leader,”
“(W)hile none of us has the chance to attend our own funeral, in many ways I feel like I was at my own in the past weeks, and surprisingly I am thankful for the perspective it has afforded.”
At least a few of his fellow politicians are not falling for it:
Bill Sandifer (R) said, “”You have gone out of your way to make enemies. You’ve done absolutely nothing to make friends, and now you want us all to be your friends? That’s a pretty tough pill to swallow.”
Jake Knotts (R) said, “”He’s a helluva writer and a promise maker, but he doesn’t keep promises to the state of South Carolina like he doesn’t keep promises to his wife.”
In the world of Christian theology… this is all politics as usual.
- Blair Scott
He’s just so ridiculous. Ugh.
I love it when Party of Jesus politicians fight among themselves. it reduces the time they have available to promote their theocratic homophobic agenda of Jeebus-brand intolerance. It also reduces the time they can spend on stealing from the poor to give to the rich. This is the other side of the Party of Jesus coin, and it is perfectly consistent with Jeebus Industry traditions – think Vatican.
Governor Sanford has simply shown that there is nothing supernatural or changing about Christianity. It doesn’t matter how many times you are “born again” you’re still the same human being that was born the first time.
I have always been stunned at the religious who, having committed one of their major sins, state anew their faith and trust in Christianity, dismissing what they have done in the process. “I has slid, but no more, my god”. (Until the next time, anyway)
Just another lyin , cheatin,power-grubbin, horn-dog, hypocrite xtian!
Who would expect anything different from him and his “UNgodly” ilk?
I love it when an atheist attempt to understand Christian theology…
According to who’s code of morality? And why would their code of morality be superior to others?
Phreedumb,
I just love it when christians think we DON’T understand christian mythology. Who’s code of morality???? That would be your imaginary god. The same code of morality as Jim Jones, Fred Phelps, Ted Haggard, and the rest of the Republican party. If you actually had a point, I guess I missed it, but, I have one, “the conservative religious movement is made up of a bloc of dirty old, creepy, hypocrits.” Thank god they are forgiven, otherwise hell would never let them in.
NeoWolfe
the Code of Hammurabi?
Excerpts from Hammurabi’s code:
“15: If any one take a male or female slave of the court, or a male or female slave of a freed man, outside the city gates [to escape], he shall be put to death.
16: If any one receive into his house a runaway male or female slave of the court, or of a freedman, and does not bring it out at the public proclamation of the [police], the master of the house shall be put to death.
53: If any one be too lazy to keep his dam in proper condition, and does not so keep it; if then the dam break and all the fields be flooded, then shall he in whose dam the break occurred be sold for money, and the money shall replace the [grain] which he has caused to be ruined.
54: If he be not able to replace the [grain], then he and his possessions shall be divided among the farmers whose corn he has flooded.
108: If a [woman wine-seller] does not accept [grain] according to gross weight in payment of drink, but takes money, and the price of the drink is less than that of the corn, she shall be convicted and thrown into the water. (1)
109: If conspirators meet in the house of a [woman wine-seller], and these conspirators are not captured and delivered to the court, the [wine-seller] shall be put to death.
110: If a “sister of a god”[nun] open a tavern, or enter a tavern to drink, then shall this woman be burned to death.
129: If a man’s wife be surprised [having intercourse] with another man, both shall be tied and thrown into the water, but the husband may pardon his wife and the king his slaves.
130: If a man violate the wife (betrothed or child-wife) of another man, who has never known a man, and still lives in her father’s house, and sleep with her and be surprised [caught], this man shall be put to death, but the wife is blameless.
131: If a man bring a charge against [his] wife, but she is not surprised with another man, she must take an oath and then may return to her house.
132: If the “finger is pointed” at a man’s wife about another man, but she is not caught sleeping with the other man, she shall jump into the river for [the sake of her] husband. (2)
138: If a man wishes to separate from his wife who has borne him no children, he shall give her the amount of her purchase money and the dowry which she brought from her father’s house, and let her go.
141: If a man’s wife, who lives in his house, wishes to leave it, plunges into debt [to go into business], tries to ruin her house, neglects her husband, and is judicially convicted: if her husband offer her release, she may go on her way, and he gives her nothing as a gift of release. If her husband does not wish to release her, and if he take another wife, she shall remain as servant in her husband’s house.
142: If a woman quarrel with her husband, and say: “You are not congenial to me,” the reasons for her prejudice must be presented. If she is guiltless, and there is no fault on her part, but he leaves and neglects her, then no guilt attaches to this woman, she shall take her dowry and go back to her father’s house. (3)
143: If she is not innocent, but leaves her husband, and ruins her house, neglecting her husband, this woman shall be cast into the water.
195: If a son strike his father, his hands shall be [cut] off. (4)
196: If a [noble-]man put out the eye of another [noble-]man, his eye shall be put out. (5)
197: If he break another [noble-]man’s bone, his bone shall be broken.
198: If he put out the eye of a [commoner], or break the bone of a [commoner], he shall pay one [silver] mina.
199: If he put out the eye of a man’s slave, or break the bone of a man’s slave, he shall pay one-half of its value.
200: If a man knock out the teeth of his equal, his teeth shall be knocked “
The Code of Viracocha?
“Viracocha
Literally, Sea-Foam. The Creator. The teacher of the world. After the Great Flood, which covered even the highest mountains and destroyed all life, Virococha molded new people out of clay at Tia Huanaco. On each figure of clay he painted the many features, clothes and hairstyles of the many nations, and gave to them their languages, their songs and the seeds they were to plant. Bringing them to life, Viracocha ordered them to travel underground and emerge at different places on the earth. Then Viracocha made the sun and the moon and the stars, and assigned them to their places in the sky. Raising up smaller Viracocha, the God ordered them to go about the world and call forth the people, and see to it that they mulitplied and followed the commandments they had been given. Some of the little viracocha went south, some went southeast, while the God’s two sons traveled northeast and northwest. Viracocha himself traveled straight north. Some tribes had rebelled, and these Viracocha punished by turning the people into stone. At Pucara, forty leagues north of Cuzco, Viracocha called down fire from the sky upon those who had disobeyed his commandments. Arriving at last at Cuzco and the seacoast, Viracocha gathered together his two sons and all the little viracocah, and they walked across the water until they disappeared.”
“From the Andes region in South America come tales of the great civilizing god – the god who brought order to chaos and led the people into a new golden age. He was known by different names in different areas – Huaracocha, Thunapa, Con Ticci – but he is probably best known as Viracocha.
A terrible time had fallen upon the peoples of the world. The sun had disappeared leaving them in darkness as a great flood ravaged the earth. The people faced great hardship as society disintegrated into disorder.
Suddenly, a man appeared from the south. He was tall with pale skin, blue eyes, grey hair and a beard. He wore a white robe and had a very authoritative and powerful demeanour.
This man worked great miracles as he travelled along the highland passages working his way north. He spoke to the people with great kindness and gave them a code to live by: to be good and injure none; to love one another, and to show charity to all. He had surpassed strength and skills in science, architecture, sculpture, medicine, and engineering to name a few. And these great skills he taught to the people. He also instructed them in the ways of agriculture and irrigation, setting up terraces and fields on the steep ravines.
Indeed, this man was a great teacher and a great healer as he brought civilization back to the people. But he had a somewhat darker side too. It was said that when he felt that his life was in danger, he had the power to call down weapons of fire from heaven. This man did not work alone either. The myths say that he had companions, messengers that carried their master’s word far and wide. Finally, his civilizing mission complete, he was rejoined by his many scattered companions. All together they stepped into the ocean and walked off effortlessly as though on land, disappearing into the sea.
This man was Viracocha.”
Phreedumbfromthought: “Let the light of the Truth burn the ignorance from your mind!”
phreedm,
We are atheists BECAUSE we understand Christian theology.
His own – you freaking dolt.
Phreedm:
A classic line, used when someone who does not believe exposes Christianity for what it truly is. Supreme Arrogance.
As expected…the kids have taken over their parents computers…
what,phreedumb, you don’t find similarities to ANCIENT codes and your “holy” code?
Distinguish this portion of Viracocha’s Codde with your “sacred (hahaha)golden rule”:
“He spoke to the people with great kindness and gave them a code to live by: to be good and injure none; to love one another, and to show charity to all. “
KJV:”A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another; as I have loved you, that you also love one another.”
Matthew: “Do unto others as you would have others do unto you.”
Nothing “special” or “divine” about your xtian code,phreedumb, nor about Viracocha’s nor Hammurabi’s.
Mere HUMAN inventions/conventions.
Yo…even you should be able to see the difference…
Now tell me…how did Jesus love his disciples? Now show me anyone else’s code that does the same…
While you’re at it…how about showing a “standard” code of morals for atheists…
sorry phreedumb , but free-thinkers will not be boxed by phreedumb’s NEED to have everything standardized, codified by transcendant sky-kings or would-be do-gooding, offensive intermeddlers~~~like phreedumb.
Phreedumb queries:”Now tell me…how did Jesus love his disciples?”
Answer: Like the “gay blade ” he was; cavorting, supping,carousing, sleeping with his 12 gay pals.
I wonder if we ought to be affraid of theists giving up their ‘code of behaviour’. It is obvious that, were they to do so there would be nothing to prevent them from stealing, raping, and murdering. Sorry to say that their religion makes us safer.
These frequent lapses of moral behaviour by the religious demonstrates that they have no moral code without the fear of everlasting punishment. We raelly should feel sorry for them. The more I read jcc and phreedm, the more sympathy I have for them. I hasten to add that this by no means suggests that they aren’t deserving of ridicule.
Yes…I couldn’t have said it better…
Yahweh…are you attempting to have an intelligent (grown-up) debate?
Sure could have fooled me…
Phreeky’s propensity to be fooled will go unchallenged by me.
What I find so shocking is that the religious conservatives are always ready to embrace someone after they have broken their own moral code so long as that person apologises and shows regret for their actions (unless they are caught having a gay relationship which seems to be the only unforgiveable sin to these people). It has become a very familiar and predictable pattern which is invoked among the holier than thou crowd. Cheat on your wife and abandon your government post? no problem as long as you make a public apology and talk about jesus. Pathetic.
Je-zeus and douche bags—both make you feel “so refreshing”, no matter the transgression!
Godless
They are so ready to embrace them because they all know that the exposure of their own hypocrisy is only a matter of time.
I am so sick of hearing this. Sanford cheated on his wife, he’s a republican and a christian. It is silly that he thinks “god” can fix his problem. But why make a big deal about it? It is really a silly piece of news. I’m sure even Sanford doesn’t really think god will all of a sudden come down and make everything in his life better. And if he does, then he’s just plain crazy. No need to keep prying into his affairs. I hate it when people try to correlate atheism with nazism or communism. There is no correlation between being a christian and cheating on your wife. Also, there is no correlation between being a good leader and cheating no your wife. Sanford should be judged on the merits of his leadership during his governance, not on his affairs. Did he use poor judgement? Yes, of course. But we all do, atheists and theists. I am very open about my atheism and I love to talk and debate with people, but the fights and arguments I see on this forum are just deplorable on both sides. Name calling and petty fighting doesn’t get either side anywhere.
I have many bones to pick with Sanford for a handful of reasons, primarily the fact that he likes to kick South Carolina’s education system while it’s down. I agree with you- He made an error, like Clinton, that falls 95% outside of the political boundaries. Certainly a good politician and a brilliant person could make the same mistake, so it doesn’t necessarily condemn him. Clinton’s major error was to blatantly lie to the country, and Sanford’s major error was to fudge up some details and become an incredible hypocrite. For those things, yes he should be judged.
Completely agree with you SMSP. You put it much more eloquently than I did. I tend to ramble about things that others can explain quite succinctly. I don’t live in SC so I don’t really know much about Sanford. But it was beginning to annoy me, just like the whole MJ thing.
off topic billboard in alabama called imagine no religion called offensive.what doesn’t offends the religious you got to laugh we aren’t supposed to be offended by the bible calling us fools but they can be offended by a billboard with no vulgar words or pictures.
I think they’re “offended” in the sense that people are a little shocked when they see a belief they hold dear to them rejected. The vast majority of people in the US are religious, so I’m sure that it’d be a little shocking to them to see something like that. I know that I am “shocked” in the same manner when I see religious billboards or flyers and I think “Wow, how completely ignorant is THAT?” I think it is the same thing. The only difference is, is that they, being the majority, have the ability to take it down. Not legally of course, but just through sheer willpower, monetary sources and other means.
People are shocked because they arent accustomed to nonbelievers being open with their atheism. They better get used to it quick though ’cause times they are a’ changing.
Times are changing, but demanding respect doesn’t bring respect. Respect must be earned. Demanding immediate change, as you’re implying, just makes us look like radical a-holes.
It’s been earned. It’s time to pay up.
Andy,
Perhaps you are content waiting for the religious folks to come around and treat atheists with respect but while you are waiting Ill be busy working hard for change. If my demands of equality make me look like a radical arsehole in the eyes of the religious then so be it but I wont back down or shut up.
its people like you AtheistAndy88 that allow these exaggerated and unverifiable claims to go unchallenged in the public forum….I think this is where religion gets its credibility today because we are just not being a big enough A hole…..every time we hear these absurdities they only deserve to be ridiculed….
life is violent and messy enough without a dumb idea about a moral authority from a super natural being….people need to be told to keep there superstitions to themselves and behind the walls of thier property tax free clubs….
dont under estimate the information age and the youth….I dont think the vast majority are religious….I think the vast majority just swim with the rest without any independent thought….
This is why I’m so confident that religious belief is about to snowball off a cliff. Jesus is slowly losing his sexiness in a crowd of teenagers. Before atheism really begins to grow, apatheism will take hold with my generation. Very few young people are reading Dawkins or reading the Bible in search of contradictions, but the vast majority of my friends recognize the stupidity of major religions and get very annoyed whenever someone brings it up. I know Christians who roll their eyes when someone tries to invite them to a Bible study. Even in South Carolina, most of my friends just laugh when they hear Sanford babble about how Jesus will save him.
God is losing credibility, nobody wants to hear about him, and very soon the vast majority who believe just to be in the majority will start laughing at religious superstition to stay in the majority and avoid ridicule.
You want the standard moral code of atheists, try this one on for size:
I believe in time,
matter, and energy,
which make up the whole of the world.
I believe in reason, evidence and the human mind,
the only tools we have;
they are the product of natural forces
in a majestic but impersonal universe,
grander and richer than we can imagine,
a source of endless opportunities for discovery.
I believe in the power of doubt;
I do not seek out reassurances,
but embrace the question,
and strive to challenge my own beliefs.
I accept human mortality.
We have but one life,
brief and full of struggle,
leavened with love and community,
learning and exploration,
beauty and the creation of
new life, new art, and new ideas.
I rejoice in this life that I have,
and in the grandeur of a world that preceded me,
and an earth that will abide without me.
Beautiful. Thank you.
Excelente!
gary,
That’s poetry!!! The anthem of freethought!! Well, done.
But, one thought, the earth will definitely abide without us, but humanity may not. Common sense solutions need to be found to over population, the reverse eugenics caused by modern medicine, racial hatred, greed for power and money, (etc.). The eradication of religion and superstition is not enough. Freethinkers are the last hope of the human species, but, the problem is we are too diverse, and can’t seem to unite under a single idea. A solution to that problem must be found as well.
NeoWolfe
atheist_republican:
Wrong. Here are 4 links to posts of yours that demonstrate your utter lack of comprehension that Christian theology does not condone the aberrant behaviors you cite because it explicitly defines standards against them. And what’s more, you deliberately misrepresent the concept of grace, forgiveness, and restoration with license for the continued practice of such behaviors.
You’re clearly lacking the most rudimentary of understanding of Christian theology.
http://tinyurl.com/newped
http://tinyurl.com/n4ymqd
http://tinyurl.com/kwe8ey
http://tinyurl.com/nbtqww
Yeah, theology has these high moral standards for humans to abide by. Some ridiculous, the others, common sense. The big problem here JaCCoff, is that your god doesn’t live by his own standards. He says thou shalt not kill, yet commits mass genocide. Hmmmm? I’m wondering why you will not join me in an enthusiastic, “Fuck You!!!” to Moses’ imaginary creator? Still sucking your thumb and imagining eternity? Understood.
NeoWolfe
Wow, a whole thread, on topic. Whoda thunk it??
Wow, you guys sure do love to just trash people! Ad hominem arguments are just terrible!
Anywho, you all mistake what I say and take it way out of context. First off, it is undeniable that respect is earned, not just taken. Should we work for change? Of course. Why do you think I am a member of this organization or help lead one on my campus? What I was referring to is the fact that childish insults and petty argumentation that you all seem to be so fond of is not the way to do it. Religion is usually seated in a person’s emotions, not rationality. No amount of argumentation, name calling or insults can change those people until they decide they want to change. Atheists must set the example for ourselves that we are normal, rational, compassionate and ethical people. If I was a theist visiting this site, I would, frankly, be completely affirmed in my prejudices looking at some of the things a lot of you say. There is no reason to “bow down” to religion or pay it lip service, but there is equally no reason to act like little babies and call people names and throw temper-tantrums. Rationality comes with maturity, and with the amount of immaturity I see here, on both sides, it is shockingly obvious sometimes why atheists continue to get a bad name.
Andy,
I actually agree with everything you said. Freethinkers should be able to discuss issues without conflict. But, here is where things become complicated. Some people think that if they don’t believe in god, they are enlightened, and to a degree that is true. But, atheists who want to pack along their baggage, such as racism, sparks are going to fly. Now, I am not a swammee but, common sense tells me that if humanity is going to rise above itself, it must solve a number of problems, and religion is only a strong start. It must rise above it’s greed, irrational hatred, and stupid superstition about what modern medicine is doing to interrupt natural selection. Admit what overpopulation is doing to our odds of survival and quality of life. It must be clear thought.
These are not difficult, rather basic things, so if you think I’m an instigator of the problems you describe, get used to it. I do not tolerate idiots when it comes to the future of the species. And, those who do not understand what I just said, are by no means freethinkers, and your opinion doesn’t matter. So have a nice day.
NeoWolfe