I think it was Michael Shermer who noted that when a missing link is found between two known fossils, it creates two more “missing links”, one on either side of it, for the fundies to complain about. But here’s a pretty good one, from about 47 Million years ago.
The preservation is so good, it is possible to see the outline of its fur and even traces of its last meal.
The fossil, nicknamed Ida, is claimed to be a “missing link” between today’s higher primates – monkeys, apes and humans – and more distant relatives
Dave,
Even if you’re being facetious, you should be careful about using the headline you did for this article. While Ida is a major find, one of the problems with it, is touting her as a “missing link”. If you follow all the stories linked to her, you’ll find examples of scientists expressing dismay at the “missing link” cries. (Maybe not in our links, I’m going on what I read before you posted anything on it.)
That said, Ida is a beauty of a fossil!
This really does change our picture of early primate evolution and is an astounding find. It shows how early on, at least 47MYA, the basic primate body plan evolved. How can you look at this discovery and not be in awe at how life evolves over time? Im glad to be a primate who just uncovered a little more of my family tree.
Uh….ok.
I knew you’d pick this story up Dave…
Let’s see…news story states that they’ve been working on this in secret for nearly 2 years. Under high security the fossil was brought to New York.
Why? Oh…to a museum for their “New Exhibit”. You know follow the money…
http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0005723
http://dailynightly.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2009/05/19/1937065.aspx
And I’m told Christians are gullible…
This claim will be proven to be wrong in the very near future…
Let’s say this is proven to be wrong Phree, I’m not sure what ‘wrong’ would mean in this case, so we’ll say it’s a fake altogether. That would in no way write off the thousands of pieces of evidence that all consistently show to the world to be billions of years old and that humans and apes did indeed involve from common ancestors.
That being said, neither of your links even claim that this is not a credible fossil from millions of years ago. They simply say that it is not that big of a deal, which I agree with, and apparently Karen does as well.
The whole situation is a murder trial in which a man was put away years ago with help from a bloody glove, DNA, finger prints, and three eye witnesses. This fossil is just another fingerprint found later on that would help piece together exactly how it happened, but it only confirms what we already knew.
Sorry to compare evolution to murder, it was the best analogy I could come up with, I invite JCC or Phree to jump on that though it’ll be entertaining.
That’s it? Someone has something to gain from this discovery and that’s the sole reason it should be discredited?
I know scientists can’t claim to be as humble as the simple Evangelical Christian mega-churches and the Vatican, both of whom have long traditions of seeking the truth and asking nothing in return of their followers. Does that really mean that, when a major discovery is found, nobody is allowed to be rewarded?
You’re probably right, though. The Titanic wreckage, King Tut’s Tomb, all of the most famous and profitable exhibits are all frauds for the sake of making money. It’s inconceivable that people should expect their scientific breakthroughs to help pay back the expense and effort involved.
If you want to be an adult about this and debate this on merit rather than picking apart a point that has no bearing on its validity then I’m sure you’ll receive a better reception.
Show Me Some Proof,
The xians tried to discredit the transitional dinosaur to bird fossil of Archaeopteryx, also found in Germany, in the 1980s and were later found to be outright liars for jesus who just couldnt wrap their heads around evolution so they commited fraud to support their side. After all, xians only have lies to support their viewpoint on most issues. Arguing with a supernatural minded person about irrefutable and testable scientific facts is like arguing with a five year old-no matter how much evidence they are presented with they will hold their ears, shut their eyes, and whine and cry while stomping their feet and screaming “No, no, no!”. Dont feed the trolls.
“So is Ida the missing link?
No, she is not “the link” because there is never going to be one missing link between humans and their primate ancestors. Neither is Ida our direct ancestor. She belonged to a branch that evolved in parallel to the ancestral line of primates that eventually gave rise to humans.
Ida is an important and fascinating discovery at the roots of the primate lineage but unfortunately it could become mired in hype and exaggerated claims – such as Ida being “our earliest ancestor”. She was not “the link”, but simply one of many, many links in the long and complicated descent of man.”
WOW. . . an article in the Wall Street Journal that’s mostly right! Truly, a historic find.
ROFLMAO
And, as to the non-scientists’ hype. . .
http://scienceblogs.com/notrocketscience/2009/05/everything_changes.php
As I say in my blog today, it won’t change the debate.
http://www.TheNewAtheist.com
How can it change a debate between reality based and scientifically minded individuals with university level biology educations and fear conditoned supernatural minded individuals who lack scientific training? it is totally useless to engage in conversation with religious people as they are unreachable. Dont feed into their game.
Exactly!
One of life’s truths is one always accuses others of their own weaknesses…
So when xians accuse others of immorality it is because xians reek of immorality. Phreeky has an uncanny ability to dig himself into ever deeper hole. I think it’s a prerequisite for being a republican these days.
Phreedumb said:
“One of life’s truths is one always accuses others of their own weaknesses…”
Response: That is very Buddhist of you to say. More like what you hate in others is what you hate about yourself. But be careful that mirror has a reflection of you, too. Be honest, you wait and attack weak points, but you never spend a moment examining the bullshit you believe. You never answer the tough questions about your faith. You’re a philosophical terrorist. Hit and run. Tell your side, then ignore rebuttal. Do you think Jesus would be proud???
NeoWolfe
phreedm says:
You’re told right.
See what I mean?
Well, as far as I’m concerned, it’s just another piece in a puzzle. The fundies already have articles out disputing the dating, and quoting dissenting opinions. I am glad another reason has been found to call reasonable people back from their religious dimentia. But, personally, any doubt I ever had about the fact of evolution ended when I spent some time and studied the subject of vestigial limbs and organs.
Found twenty years ago? What’s up with that? And while the fossil may well be of a juvenile, it is very small in comparison with modern man and it’s tail is nearly half the length of it’s body. Being objective, I would say that it might be a link to modern great apes, but doesn’t link great apes to man.
NeoWolfe
http://us1.harunyahya.com/Detail/T/EDCRFV/productId/14374
Check it out, it’s all a big lie, no matter how much the materialists try to prove religion wrong…
DONT FEED THIS TROLL!
I’m not sure what the hell this site is, but I found this absolutely hilarious- scary, but hilarious.
http://us1.harunyahya.com/Detail/T/EDCRFV/productId/13204/DAWKINS_IS_DESPERATELY_TRYING_TO_DECEIVE_YOUNG_CHILDREN
Harun Yahya is a Turkish writer of incredible ignorance & stupidity who’s been pushing a bizarre strawman argument that, if evolution was true, the fossil record would be full of malformed monstrosities. (The opposite is true, of course: To become a fossil, a creature must first be able to live.)
Neo
I agree another piece in the puzzle.And the hubble repairs are complete a good week for humanity i’d say.
This damn thing is the forefather of the people in the land of nod.
OT ALERT
Hold onto your hats! Ignorant Californian voters may have just tipped the US into another great depression. Way t’ go you ignorant fools!
Uh – how’s that?
LOL, you need to speak amoeba. Then it will may be intelligible, but it won’t make sense.
NeoWolfe
Such a perfectly complete fossil found at a time when non-believers are popping up everywhere is curious. I will wait for more analysis. Even if this fossil is the link, without certainty of it, and probably even with certainty of it, people like phreedm and jcc will never be able to accept it as it would indeed be another crack in their myth belief armor.
dw,
This is not THE missing link but is in fact just another piece of the puzzle of primate evolution. For every “missing link” that is found there are two more on either side of it and when you consider that less than 1% of all species that are now extinct are represented in the fossil record the puzzle can never be complete (but thanks to genetics we can get closer than with fossil evidence only). This amazing little fossil represents a common ancestor of modern primates, including us, and not a direct link between humans and other primates. It is far too old for that!
Thanks, but I know how devious the devoted are. There is always the creation of two more gaps whenever there is a missing piece found. As far as genetic evidence: even if there were no fossil evidence, genetic evidence alone would be enough to prove evolution, except of course, to the demented. Even if the direct link was found, and who knows it might have been found already, would it be recognized as such? No, as it would no doubt create more gaps.
Fossilization is such a chancy process it is a wonder we have any at all. It sure would make the lives of the reality challenged easier, if we did not.
dw,
You are so right when you say that even without the fossil record we could confirm evolution through genetics.
It’s just something god left us to test our faith….
evolution means that some groups of humans are superior to others agree or disagree.would you support a controlled breeding program for humans.
Evolution “means” no such thing. Natural selection involves just one criterion: What group breeds more prolifically than others?
I don’t think that’s the criterion you’d want to use in judging some groups superior to others.
Anyway, inferior people tend to think they’re superior, so while you try to stop them from breeding, they’ll try to stop you. . . .
is it moral to allow mass breeding in third world when we know many will suffer and die before age 5.
The world population must be controlled. I think it is THE challenge of the 21st century. Poverty fosters over-breeding in the modern world.
Oh wow – so you & neowolfe DO agree on something. Wow.
KA,
We also agree that Carrie Prejean’s tits are grotesque, exagerated, unrealistic, and unattractive. Whutthole’s testosterone is still intact, but hormones are all that drive amoebas.
NeoWolfe
Neoplasm
Insults from uneducated trailer trash! Oh yeh. That hurts.
If trailer trash understand the function of the frontal lobes of the brain, I guess that affirms your membership in the mushroom society.
NeoWolfe
Neoplasm
Trying to rewrite your history. Good luck with that. You will need a better functioning frontal lobe than the one you came equipped with for that task.
May 21, 2009
Military.com
Bibles sent to troops in Afghanistan for distribution to Muslims were destroyed after being confiscated by the military.
A Pentagon spokesman told CNN on May 19 that the Bibles, which were printed in Pashto and Dari, the two most common languages in Afghanistan, were burned.
While some thought had been given to returning the Bibles to the church that had sent them, Army officials feared the Bibles would only be sent back to another unit in Afghanistan and could be used for proselytizing, Lt. Col. Mark Wright told the network.
Book burning? By xians! Tell me it ain’t so.
thanks for the update atheistinafoxhole.
Whenever a theist tells you that fossils were left here by God to test our faith, just look them straight in the eye and say, “So God is deceitful?”
Dagny
That is beautiful! LMAO.
I suggest knowingly nodding one’s head slightly with eyes widened as though something new and important has just been learned.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mNf3BfvxmBE
For those of you who are stupid, this is sarcasm.
Godless
That was great!
Well, I’m keeping my mind open, and the history channel is premiering a series called, “Link, this changes everything”. But, guess what, it looks to me like a monkey with a long tail. We already know that monkeys and great apes have fingernails and opposable digits. If these hype artists don’t have something substantial to present, I’m going to drive to hollywood and personally crack their athlete’s cup with a baseball bat.
NeoWolfe
I’m excited to watch that program on the History channel.
In my mind the existence of this fossil is a moot point in regard to atheism. If someone doesn’t believe in evolution or refutes that fossils are real or what have you, this fossil isn’t going to change anything for them. But it’s exciting to me because it seems to be a link within the lemur family, one that is close enough to our own to at least expand our understanding more of our own history of existence. Not directly of course, but a lot can be learned from why we DON’T have certain characteristics and traits and the idea that this fossil, while not being directly related to us, is generally related to us is nothing short of super sexy exciting.
Well, I hope you are right. But, the missing link as it was presented to me in biology classes was the connection between the ancestors of the great apes (no tails) and the neanderthals and cromagnons. This fossil appears on the surface to be something along the line of a gibbon monkey.
Again, I will listen with an open mind, but my intuition tells me this is hype and bullshit. Don’t get me wrong, I believe evolution as a fact, not just a theory, but, I don’t see this monkey as the missing link.
NeoWolfe
neo:
the missing link as it was presented to me in biology classes was the connection between the ancestors of the great apes (no tails) and the neanderthals and cromagnons.
The idea of there being some singular and definitive missing link is outdated and incorrect.
This article outlines it far better than I could, but a specific excerpt sums it up nicely:
The whole “missing link” category is a bit of journalistic trumpery: almost every fossil could be called a link, and it feeds the simplistic notion that there could be a single definitive bridge between ancient and modern species.
That’s why I’m unconcerned about it having a tail or outwardly not seeming “close enough” to our supposed ancestry. It’s an exciting find and has the potential to give us a few more pieces of the puzzle. It won’t be “the” answer that proves anything to non-evolutionists because they are looking for that one easy, simple quick discovery which essentially doesn’t exist. However, this discovery seems to shed more light on our more-than-ancient ancestry and that, to me, is awesome enough to celebrate regardless of anything else.
Well, commie, be excited about the find,
What I’m concerned about is that “this changes nothing”. A fossil of a monkey with a tail half it’s body length doesn’t connect great apes to modern humans. In fact it proves nothing.
The missing link is between ancestors of the great apes and humans. This is, in my opinion, a ridiculous distraction. It doesn’t help our cause because it is an obvious deception from the issues. Just my opinion, and go ahead and crusify me, but the fossil of a gibbon monkey doesn’t prove shit.
Go ahead and declare the discovery of the holy grail, but it will be your careers in the balance when this dry hole is exposed. And the fundies will be laughing at you at the collection box.
It’s a fucking monkey, not the missing link. Oh, well, why would I care.
NeoWolfe
neo:
I think it is unfortunate that it’s been presented by some as the missing link (which doesn’t even exist in singularity) and in that respect it might not prove anything to some people. I think I understand your point that it’s already been presented en mass in a way that is misleading to most people since the logical jump from the name of the history channel program “Link” to the outdated idea of the missing link isn’t a large one.
However, it is a link in the primate evolutionary chain, a chain that we belong to, and so I think it has the potential to teach us more about how we evolved. Just because it’s not something that an atheist can simply and easily use as ammunition against a christian doesn’t make it worthless. The only way it could be considered worthless is if all you care about is perpetuating the false idea of there being a single link that will prove beyond question the evolution of man, but if that’s the case than you probably shouldn’t pay attention to ANY primate fossils that are found because that singular link doesn’t exist.
I sincerely hope you don’t feel like I’ve crucified you. As for the fundamentalists, they would laugh regardless of what was found. They won’t accept the validity of this or any fossils found in the past or future because their minds are completely closed to the idea of fossils in the first place. It doesn’t bother me when fools laugh at me. I’m just glad they’re occupied for a while and not spreading more harm to people who might be silly enough to believe their religious sales pitch.
Commie,
Great, common sense, well thought out post. You do apparently get my point. I believe you’re kinda new here, and probably don’t know me very well, but, rest assured that any doubt about evolution that existed in my mind disappeared when I took the time to study vestigial limbs and organs. Nature is a work in progress, and evolution is an obvious fact, not a theory.
And like you said, everything we find widens the horizons of what we understand. And maybe I spoke too soon, maybe this dead monkey tells us something big that we didn’t know before. I will be tuned in to hear what all the hype is about, but, my first instinct is to be skeptical, because disappointment hurts. I don’t like pain.
NeoWolfe
neo:
I know what you mean about the safety of skepticism, and I think we all have areas where hope and skepticism run parallel to one another in a kind of mutually important and necessary co-existence. Thanks for being nice. I’m new, but I’m already well aware of the volatile nature of this blog and am bracing myself for the eventuality of being internet-eviscerated for having an unpopular opinion here.
I think a little biology lesson is in order. This fossil has been likened to a gibbon monkey by at least one person here. The gibbon is a lesser ape, not a monkey and it does not have a tail. Whether the fossil is the “missing link” or not, probably will never be known. Evolution is a lot more complicated than many people realize. It has been my experience that most people do not even know that “survival of the fittest” has nothing to do with physical fitness and strength. They know little of reproductive fitness. I taught college biology for 7 years, so I speak from some experience. I think one thing that most of us can agree on is that it is a spectacularly complete and interesting fossil.
666,
You are absolutely right. The older I get, the less I can trust my memory. I remember a craze back in the sixties to own monkeys as exotic pets. Gibbons were one, and true, they are not really monkeys at all, but the other was spider monkeys. That was what I was thinking of, I didn’t check my facts. Thank you for setting me straight.
NeoWolfe
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