I just got off the phone with KDKA in Pittsburgh (thanks for having me on), where the polite Christian hosts asked be some standard questions, the last of which I now put to you.
Do you get offended when someone says “I’ll pray for you”?
While I understand that 1) their praying for me does nothing but waste their own time and 2) they are trying do what they think is good, I replied that yes, I DO take offense.
I’ve been married to a theist for 18 years and have never tried to convert her. My daughter is an atheist, not from my drumming it into her, but through thought and contemplation. There is no need or desire for me to try to change anyone against their wishes.
But when someone prays for me, they are trying to change me against my wishes. Yes, of course it will fail, but as the old saying goes “it’s the thought that counts”, and this thought is negative. They are trying to convince their god to “open my heart” or whatever other metaphor they wish to use for “convert by force using your supernatural powers”.
Indeed, praying for someone is an act of religious intolerance.
dw says:
May 8, 2009 at 12:11 pm
DW…sounds like it’s more an issue of personal insecurity. I guess you have to decide which is more important. Standing on who you are or keeping the desire to be accepted at whatever the cost…
Warning!!! Proceed at your own risk!!!
If you’re easily offended. If your train of thought is easily dislodged. If you battle with a “victimhood” mentality… please stop reading here.
If you continue to read, please do not respond to any subject matter discussed below.
I love this claim…Christianity caused the dark ages…
http://history.howstuffworks.com/european-history/byzantine-empire.htm
Just an observation. I don’t want any secure atheist to claim I’m high jacking the thread…
We now return you to the original thread…
Someone said:
Same ol’ same ol’, when you run out of arguments just start with the insults. Personally I am secure. That’s why I can stand back and watch the performances you, jcc and others put on and have a laugh. You’re so steeped in Dogma you cannot think outside that moldy old box.
Yes, Christianity was the cause of the Dark Ages. Information was stifled, destroyed, whereever it was found. Ignorance of “Biblical” proportions reigned as “witches” were found everywhere, and no where. The Renaissance was not created by Christianity which caused the Dark Ages, but instead was an aggressive resistance of Christianity at the time, a throwing off of the bonds, if you will.
Just as in many cases, religion tries to claim the best for itself by rewriting history, by whatever means, be it forgery, or outright rewrites without regard to reality.
It is you, whoever you are, that is easily offended. “Victimhood” is a way of life for Christians who are not happy unless they are persecuted. In fact it is part of the teachings of your religion that you must endure hardship and persecution.
I think one time before I told you that arguments that were simply turned backward and reused were ineffective on me as I could recognize them every time. Well, you failed again.
Wow, the last comment did not end in moderation, good work Dave.
DW…your rant proves my point.
Insult? Why does an observation come off as an insult?
If a Christian, or a Jew worked in a secular company and made the same arguments as you, the observation would be true also…
If I’m wrong, then simply please explain why you haven’t told your co-workers that you’re an atheist and discussion of religion bothers you?
Logically that seems like the simplest way to solve your issues at work. As any card carrying member of the ACLU knows, there are laws to protect you.
And your insult proves mine.
This is a typical disconnect. Totally unrelated to what we were discussing, totally incoherent. I don’t tell all my co-workers that I am an atheist because they don’t need to know, and, unlike you, I am not proseltyzing for my cause. Probably similar to the reason you are not standing on the corner of whatever with a sign “The world is doomed” held high.
There are laws to protect you from outright discrimination, but not from subtle discrimination from Christian co-workers, who, despite your ravings of how loving your non-existent Lord is, will treat you as an unclean should they discover your beliefs differ from theirs in the slightest.
Discussions of religion with those who have real knowledge do not bother me. Those who use the Bible like a club, and pelt you with different bits of unintelligible scripture annoy me greatly. However, that’s all they have. An ancient book, totally out of touch with the real world, fabricated by humans to explain the unexplained phenomenom around them, later rearranged by church leaders into a compilation with which they could exercise control over groups of people.
In every other way, you, yes you, seem very intelligent. When it comes to religion however, you are susceptible to believing any story fabricated by the ancient simple and ignorant people who fabricated the greatest lie ever told. If you came to this belief late in life there is still hope you can break away, reclaim your lost mind. If you were indoctrinated from a child on, the likelihood is you never will be able to lift the cloak of obfuscation that surrounds you.
If you are the second case, I would rather not discuss religion with you again, as you are most likely without hope.
& anybody who believes the way he does, is instantly correct, whoever doesn’t, is instantly wrong.
Phreedumb spewed this puke:
“I love this claim…Christianity caused the dark ages…
The Byzantine Empire shone with intellectual and artistic brilliance during the so-called Dark Ages in western Europe. Gradually its heritage was shared with the West and became one of the wellsprings of the European Renaissance.
Response: Well, the fact is, while Europe was killing each other in senseless wars and dying of poorman diseases like bubonic plague, the Ottoman Empire was thriving. Muslims making christians look like termites. LOL. They invented huge advances in steam power and hydraulics.
It must have been humorous to them, as Europe is ravaged with disease, the idea that god was still with them as they slaughtered each other. And by the way, the Byzantines were an interesting cultural breech from Rome, but they had little to do with European renaissance. That was europeans two hundred years late on the trigger deciding that science and art had merit without the church’s censure.
There’s no place you can hide from the truth, Phreedumb. Your god is really the devil, they are both the same imaginary person, and I can use history and your bible to prove it. Yep, I’m the accuser, where’s your faith, pussy?
NeoWolfe
DW…thanks for the compliment…
I remember a new member posting here years ago, stating that her husband was the smartest, most intelligent person she knew, but she questioned his Catholicism. I made the suggestion that perhaps she was questioning the wrong person…
neowolfe says:
May 9, 2009 at 5:59 pm
OK…please do.
Charlie,
I admit my approach may have less impact in addressing the true chasm between our doctrinal concepts. A gentle diplomacy can imply tolerance which can morph into the credibility you speak of. I am still not sure how to respond to being told “I’ll pray for you”. I do feel, however, that antagonism usually gets us nowhere.
I second neowolfe’s claim. phreedm, the intervention of Christianity into politics was a major cause for the so-called “Dark Ages”. I just took a class on Byzantium at the world’s top public university with a MacArthur Genius award winning professor, and believe me, you can’t deny that religion played an integral part in causing the “Dark Ages” because religion basically pervaded every aspect of life. There really is no other explanation. I welcome your attempt to convince me of one.
Someone said:
Twas no compliment. I said seem, but from your reply, I guess not. It was an observation that you have been more or less hypnotized by your faith. Like the man who when commanded to “bark like a dog” barks, you bark where ever religion is involved. Without reason, without thought, just a conditioned impulse, a reflexive knee-jerk reaction is all you can manage where religion is concerned. A hopeless case indeed.
She like me was probably rendered speechless. Your abstract comment having no meaning. Another case of reversal, which I indicated earlier, is easily spotted, and rejected. Reversing a comment back upon the commentor is a common tactic used by dogma entrenched believers who have run out of ammunition.
I prayed this morn…but that sick, demented, twisted, perverted,sadistic judeo-christian,islamic,god too was busy to respond cause he was “designing” more creatures whose primary method of survival was killing, slaughtering and consuming other creatures.
god=love(of slaughter)
THe “Dark Ages” had many parents, not the least of which was the control by the Unholy matrimony of church and state of the access to knowledge.
During that time a proverb emerged that exemplified the lack of acccess to knowledge:” Tis only a fool who lends a book.But a greater fool returns it.”
When the Gutenberg removable type printing press and other technological advancemnents began to break the church/state monopoly of the dissemnation of knowledge, an age of “enlightenment” began to emerge , which led directly to the framing of the USA’s SECULAR constitution, throwing off the yoke of political religious tyranny by the unholy matrimony of church and state that had corrupted and debased humanity for 1600 years.
“What influence, in fact, have ecclesiastical establishments had on society? In some instances they have been seen to erect a spiritual tyranny on the ruins of the civil authority; on many instances they have been seen upholding the thrones of political tyranny; in no instance have they been the guardians of the liberties of the people. Rulers who wish to subvert the public liberty may have found an established clergy convenient auxiliaries. A just government, instituted to secure and perpetuate it, needs them not.” [Pres. James Madison, A Memorial and Remonstrance, addressed to the General Assembly of the Commonwealth of Virginia, 1785]
“Experience witnesseth that ecclesiastical establishments, instead of maintaining the purity and efficacy of religion, have had a contrary operation. During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What has been its fruits? More or less, in all places, pride and indolence in the clergy; ignorance and servility in the laity; in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution. [James Madison, A Memorial and Remonstrance, addressed to the General Assembly of the Commonwealth of Virginia, 1785]“
Neowolfe said:
I too would like to hear this. I have my own thoughts on this as well.
Maybe it’s possible that God could be said to be comparable to the superego of Freuds old theories of the mind. The Devil would be the Id, and of course, we are the ego, twisted this way and that by the other two. It’s (religion) all in the head so God, the Devil, and the human are one. Usually either God, or Devil are expressed, which would be viewed as a duality of the mind which many people have hinted at. When you ask “should I do this” who are you talking to type questions.
onesself!
Me myself and I?
“…Gutenberg MOVABLE…” I should have typed.
I am, sayeth the Lord?
Si, por supesto…m/m/i
“I am” sayeth THIS Yahweh(not yours or anyone’s “lord”)
Si, por supesto…m/m/i ?
“Si, por supesto…m/m/i” =
“yes, of course, me/myself/I”
neowolfe says:
May 9, 2009 at 5:59 pm
Your god is really the devil, they are both the same imaginary person, and I can use history and your bible to prove it.
I cannot conceive a way to go about proving such a thing with the use of the Bible, but I have always maintained that Christianity has at least 4 gods, and probably 5 or more with the way that Catholics treat Mary. The trinity has always been a convenient cover for polytheism, but it is really no different. The devil must be a god as well, or else how would he have any power to corrupt in the face of the three other Gods in heaven. We could also make the argument that, with the current state of the world and all the times God had to spread his wrath on earth, that Satan is more powerful and been winning the war of good and evil.
Keep up the good work gods.
“Thus sayeth the Lord”… “Thus sayeth Yahweh”….
Yes, just as you both sayed.
eat shit fuck sleep….gobble nipple chew
Phreedumb quoted me then said:
Your god is really the devil, they are both the same imaginary person, and I can use history and your bible to prove it.
OK…please do
dw got interested and said:
“I too would like to hear this. I have my own thoughts on this as well.”
It’s really not so complicated. God creates angels. God is perfect therefore all his creations are perfect. Theists will argue that god gave them free will, but, how does a perfect creature make an imperfect decision? He loves and admires himself and covets god’s throne, more than he desires god’s intended plan. Okay, he deceived Eve, who deceived him? Serious hardwire issues. He thinks he can replace god? Does he think he can kill god? LOL. Take over the territory? Perfection my ass.
The only explanation for Satan is an intentional antagonist on which you could blame all suffering. Unfortunately that angel was the creation of the perfect god.
Can I rest my case now? I can go on in much more detail about Yahweh the Murdering Monster.
NeoWolfe
I always thought that the reason why the devil was allowed to continue to exist was that he made too good of a scapegoat. Without him around the church would actually have to look inward, which is definitely something they wanted to avoid at all costs.
Plus you know, it is mighty effective at scaring children, which is always a plus when it comes to religion.
reason:
A. Wasn’t working @ the polls, &
B. He was a US citizen.
Atheist: I am an Atheist.
Theist: I will pray for you.
Atheist: I guess that’s better than preying upon me.
“I will pray for you” is theist for “fuck you”.
When someone says they will pray for me, I take it that they are just wishing me their best in the way they think (of course it is a weird idea to me). Everyone I know, knows my beliefs and realize I don’t think their prayers have any magical power over me. However, if I am going through something difficult, it is nice to know people are thinking about me and wishing me the best. I think there is some psychological benefit to it (placebo effect). I am in a family with varying degrees of religious belief. When everyone says they are praying for someone who is going through difficult time, I tell the person, I am thinking about them and if there were a god, it would accept my thoughts as prayers. We are trying to support each other and I think me offering my thoughts offers some psychological support to the person. I don’t think we benefit from being in the face of people we love when they need support. That is one reason when I ordered solstice cards a few years ago from American Atheists, I did not send them out. The message on the back about the mythical god is IMO inappropriate when sending friends holiday wishes. There is a time for discussion and debate. Sending a card during the Christmas season to friends and pointing out that their beliefs are silly, is a way to lose friends. I think we need to lighten up sometimes.