The Israel Defense Forces said Sunday that its aircraft had bombed more than 40 tunnels linking the blockaded Gaza Strip with Egypt’s Sinai desert on Sunday, one day after the launch of the largest Israeli offensive on the Gaza Strip since it captured the territory in 1967.”The air force just attacked over 40 tunnels found on the Gaza side of the border. Those tunnels, we believe, were used for smuggling weapons, explosives and sometimes people,” an IDF spokeswoman told reporters, after two days of intensive air strikes that killed nearly 300Palestinians and wounded close to 800.Palestinian sources reported that two people had been killed in the strike. Witnesses said that fires raged in the area and that dozens of explosions were heard.
Separately… http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1050626.html
Iran’s Supreme Leader Ayatollah Ali Khamenei issued a religious decree to Muslims around the world on Sunday, ordering them to defend Palestinians against Israel’s attacks on Gaza, state television said.”All Palestinian combatants and all the Islamic world’s pious people are obliged to defend the defenceless women, children and people in Gaza in any way possible. Whoever is killed in this legitimate defense is considered a martyr,” state television quoted Khamenei as saying in a statement.
More fighting over land, money, and of course gods. My theistic Jewish relatives seem disappointed when I tell them I have no intention of traveling to Israel, but traveling to the “Region of Unlimited Unstoppable Religious War” is simply unappealing to me — especially when The Bahamas is closer.
r4d
No, I am talking about the law. Do you or do you not agree that the use of disproportionate force is a war crime?
Shooting at civilians, without any discrimination, for the soul purpose of killing them and causing harm – this is a war crime.
The fucked up thing is that terrorist militias are not bound by law, they do what the fuck they want and no one goes and says – Hey, Hamas, you snipering at Israeli babies, women, men and children is a war crime, you blowing up buses and trowing molotov coctails at random cars at shooting THOUSANDS of missiles and rockets at civilian targets for YEARS is a war crime. No, people don’t say that because hamas (and other Palastinian terror groups who are *currently* silent) are terrorists who have no consideration of human right or a will for TRUE peace.
The Israeli government, like any modern civilized democratic government is bound by those rules and does everything in it’s power not to harm civilians who are not part of the warfare.
BUT – that effort comes second to the effort of protecting the cities, citizens and freedom inside it’s borders.
Go live in a piece of land 500km long and 40 km wide (at it’s narrowest) surrounded completely by countries who repeatedly try to destroy you (not achieve a political, economical or geographical target, no – destroy you), with limited resources and enemies within it’s borders (ie israeli arabs who are two-faced and enjoy israeli modern democracy and freedom while trying to undermine it at any chance they get, Intifada I, Intifada II, suicide bombers and cooperators and etc).
You may not understand this because all you do is read online articles (which are 99% percent biased, one way or the other) and play mind games with 3rd grade morals and ethics. The people who live here do so under the constant threat of annihilation, and do what ever is needed to prevent that.
It’s we vs they ? yes. it’s not an utopia. We want to live here, they want us dead. there are exceptions but the exceptions are not holding the firearms and making the decisions. Those who hold them and make them and shoot at us are the ones getting bombed.
Israel has never taken a peaceful neighbor at began shooting at it and attacking it. Hmmm …. EVERY each one of our neighbors has.
What does that say of the situation ??
gpgemini
Your government’s propaganda machine seems to have been very effective with you. I am sorry for you.
I don’t need propaganda, I have my own mind, thank you.
gpgemini The following line appears to summarize your perspective.
If you left do you think the Palestinians would hunt you down? Factually the statement “We want to live here, they want us out.” is more accurate. So why do you resort to such distortions?
What,
assuming you are from the US, and excuse me for the cheap analogy – but had the native Indians grouped and lunched a decade long campaign of terror against innocent US civilians, bombing busses, subways, buildings, snipering down women and children (no need to further explain what terrorists do, or is there?), accusing you of invading and taking their lawful land – had you said, oh OK, I’ll just pack my things and go back to poland, or spain, or where ever my grand grand grand grand grandfather has came from.
I’m not gonna continue this argument, because all of these issues are complex, had they not have been so the problem would not exist. BUT – under no circumstances is terror acceptable.
Period, and there is nothing else to talk about. There is no justification to what Hamas does, not even to mention the suffering it causes to it’s own people against it’s own goals:
http://www.boston.com/bostonglobe/editorial_opinion/oped/articles/2008/12/30/the_suffering_that_hamas_causes/
gpgemini
So what you are saying is that there is no justification for the “terror” perpetrated by Palestinians but the disproportionate “terror” by Israelis is justified. You have made yourself clear.
I addressed this analogy above with
I acknowledge that disputes over land are part of all countries history and that those disputes often have involved brutality. I support none of it – no matter who commits it – and I will advocate for the withdrawal of support to countries that engage in such behavior. Is that clear enough?
What,
Israel’s government has been over patient with the continuous bombing of it’s cities. Despite all efforts to come to a stable cease-fire Hamas has continued it’s atrocities and denies Israel’s right to exists.
Under such circumstances there is no choice but to stop them by force. Them using civilians as human shields is their own wrong doing, Israel cannot allow it’s citizens to remain under attack.
I fail to understand how you cannot see this.
gpgemini
Do you fail to understand this? You say that Israel should exist the Palestinians say it should not so the fighting continues. I do not want my country to be an enabler of your country’s war crimes by providing you with military aid. Got it?
So you actively support the destruction of Israel.
Great.
Thanks really.
Go enjoy your safe life in an isolated continent. I go to sleep today hoping that sirens don’t go off at night forcing me to run for the shelter.
Cheers.
gpgemini
You are twisted.
gpgemini
I’ll be a bit more specific.
Your use of the word “actively” is grossly inappropriate. Twist things any which way you want but I still will not want to support your (or anybody else’s) war crimes machine.
gpgemini
You are worried about sleeping through the night while most Palestinians are worried about living through the night. I feel for anybody living with violence and I will not be an enabler of that violence.
What said this:
“The five Arab countries that were members of the Arab League and the UN as well as the Palestinian Arabs were against the 1947 UN partition plan and this set the stage for everything that has occurred since in that region.”
The fact that the Arabs objected is a no brainer, I concede the point. And while it’s true all actions have intended, as well as unintended consequences, the present reality is the real point.
The world was at the end of a catastrophic war, and the victors divided the spoils. The Palestinians may have gotten an unfair shake, but so did the East Germans, the Yugoslavians, the Polish, etc. But here’s the reality, Israel exists, and they’re not going away. Their neighbors have two choices, live with it and learn to co-exist, or suffer the consequences if they don’t.
The Gaza residents, by electing a Hamas majority to parliament, made THEIR CHOICE, and now they are living with the consequences. Israel will defend itself and it’s citizens.
Now! As a qualifier, I want to state that I do NOT support everything Israel has done. At one point in time, having heard of the the Israelli settlements on Palestinian land, I imagined a few residential communities along the border. Later I saw a map of the settlements, and they are all over the Palestinian side of the border. Not good.
Add to that, a year ago, or so, as part some agreement, Israel abandoned some of those settlement. On the surface that is good. But, the protest by fundamentalist Jews is what put it on the news, as the Israellis left, they bulldozed all the homes. That wasn’t right, what purpose did that serve? Those Palestinians could have made good use of those buildings. I wasn’t impressed.
I’m not a blind supporter of Israel, but when it comes to stopping missiles fired from Gaza, if you lived there, you would support what the Israellis are doing, and if you don’t admit it to yourself, you’re a hypocrite.
NeoWolfe
Neowolfe
NeoWolfe
Back-pedaling so quickly has been known to cause injury.
What, in another flash of insight, said:
“NeoWolfe
Back-pedaling so quickly has been known to cause injury.”
I seem to be fine, but you’re brainmatter on my wheels are at best iffy. Failure to write an exhaustive college thesis on the mid east crisis is not cause to accuse back peddaling when adding new dimensions. That’s why you are a self defined turd, what. You really don’t understand what is happening, so you take some words out of context and pretend to have a point. Should we just call you Phreeky II or do you want to go watch a documentary or something? Read a book maybe? Get a clue? What the fuck ever? More likely just “what” as usual?
NeoWolfe
I apologize, what, that was out of line.
Correction: Should have read, it was not backpedaling or any form of retraction. It was the other half of the big picture, which “freethinkers” must always consider.
There are no perfect human institutions.
NeoWolfe
I guess I’m inclined to agree with Neo in that Israel exists; right or wrong, it’s there. I know several young people from Israel, and they’re much like our blogger, unintrested in religion and wanting to lead secular lives. To blame them for living in Israel would be akin to blaming contemporary Americans for living on stolen land.
Included in it’s stinky, rotten foundation is this gem, Israel is the only group of people in the Middle East that at least seem to be trying to live based on the rights of the individual, or some form of Democracy, perhaps even a Secular Democracy. Shouldn’t the theocratically ruled be clamoring to get in?
The true crime against humanity in that region is the stupification of the masses by religion so that they can’t even see a beacon of freedom that’s practically slapping them in the face.
However, as Neo and What mentioned, I can’t support bloodshed. Shame on any person/people that can’t resolve differences without killing. It speaks volumes about both sides.
Not by religion, but by Israeli connivance. From today’s juancole.com:
cry4turtles
Yep it’s there and inflicting tremendous grief upon the Palestinians.
If that individual happens to be a jew! Give me an f’ing break!
NotSoFast
I’m glad to see that you are reading Informed Comment. Cole is a rare voice of reason and expert knowledge shedding light upon this zionist-neocon driven world of grief that we are in.
Not So Fast referred to this:
“Israeli intelligence funneled some aid to Hamas”
Does that remind you a little of when the CIA armed Al Qaeda against the Russians, or when Reagan sold weapons to Iran to fight Iraq? It doesn’t diminish the validity of your point, but, if you want to criticize other nations, take a look at the dog shit lying in your own back yard first.
NeoWolfe
The grand wizard, “What” addresses his sheetwearing audience:
“Israel is the only group of people in the Middle East that at least seem to be trying to live based on the rights of the individual …” (cry4turtles) answer:
“If that individual happens to be a jew! Give me an f’ing break.”
No, actually that respect extends to even Arab countries such as Jordan, and Egypt who recognized the sovereignty of Israel, and have ceased hostilities. It also extends to thousands of Palestinians who cross the border each day and go to work in Israel. That’s what those check points are for. To stop suicide bombers from taking advantage of Israelli generocity. That’s why Gaza has dried up like a prune. The Israellis cut off Hamas, and the entire province collapses. While the population is starving, Hamas smuggles in weapons, not baby formula. Fires missiles at residential neighborhoods instead of talking about solutions. They fuel their hate agenda (sound familiar What?) instead of serving the good of the people. They are radical islamic fundamentalists who believe Allah will drive the Jews from Isreal if they just keep killing enough babies. There is no reasoning with them, they are not afraid to die, and deliberately use civilians as a shield, in order to force the Israellis to kill civilians to get to them.
No wonder they’re What’s heroes.
NeoWolfe
NeoWolfe
It is clear that you accept the Israeli strategy of dehumanizing and vilifying the Palestinians while extracting one hundred eyes for an eye?
You know you can’t defend what Israeli is doing nevertheless you feel compelled to do so. So you recklessly throw around words like “grand wizard” and “KKK”.
I’ll bet that NotSoFast like myself has taken a look at that “dog shit” that others thrown over the fence into our “backyard” and I’ll bet he like I doesn’t like it one bit. SO WHAT IS YOUR FREAKING POINT YOU JUVENILE LITTLE OBFUSCATING WIMP.
Grow a pair and argue like somebody with an ounce of integrity.
I knew it.
Remember when the “terrorists” were arrested for collecting relief money for Hamas? And on 2008/11/25 I said:
Now here’s neowolfe babbling:
What,
thanks for sticking up for me. You’re absolutely right; I’ve been criticizing that “dogshit” probably since before you or neo was born.
Yes and those tunnels are also used to smuggle medical supplies which are in sore need now. Palestinian ER docs have been saying it is better to be brought in dead because they don’t have the supplies necessary to save the lives of the wounded.
NeoWolfe
Is support of tribalism part of your particular brand of “free-thought”?
To all
I just read Juan Cole’s piece dated Sunday Jan 4 which appears to be where NotSoFast found the quote above regarding Israelis meddling with Hamas. As always, Cole’s work is impeccable.
For those that don’t read Cole. It’s a must-do for the well-informed – a kin to reading Krugman’s blog or his NYTimes column. Cole’s site, called Informed Comment, is at:
http://www.juancole.com/
I suggest that you all read the article dated Sunday, January 04, 2009 and titled “Gaza 2008: Micro-Wars and Macro-Wars”.
I guess I should be elated that What didn’t call me everything but white when he addressed my post(Whew!). If we could keep things civil, I’d like to pose a question-I’m just curious What, have you spent time in Israel?
cry4turtles
Have you?
You sure are sensitive. I have no idea what incivility you’re complaining about. All I can see above is that What made one brief, pertinent response to one of your mind-bogglingly absurd remarks.
cry4turtles
I have not. The closest I have come to Israel is through the stories of a friend of mine that served in the Israeli army. One of his stories that stuck with me was about how he put the eye of a Palestinian out with a bayonet at a border crossing. Prior to that he had been involved in operations that led to the death or injury of Palestinians but nothing so up-close and personal. He said he initially felt no remorse for his actions but they overwhelmed him later. He eventually went to ask the person he wounded for forgiveness. Amazingly he was given it. He became a sort of a local hero to the Palestinians after that and if they needed anything they would go to him. Just exactly what that meant was unclear to me. He still blames the Israeli government for turning him into something he thought he had no capacity to become.
Not so fast said,
“Now here’s neowolfe babbling:
While the population is starving, Hamas smuggles in weapons, not baby formula.”
Do you hypothesize, somehow, that Hamas based charity organizations were using the money for humanitarian reasons? Hamas doles out just enough support to Palestinians to convince them they are their benefactors, while they politically conduct themselves in a way that force the rest of civilization to try something like “sanctions” to pressure terrorists to make peace. Wasted time. The only game they understand is death of the innocents. They target innocents, then use them as shields. Poor persecuted monsters.
They cut their people off from world aid, and become their “dark ages” style religious leaders. Then nematods like you buy into their propaganda, not because it makes any sense, or that it points toward a sane solution, but because you think that Israel can do no right. Palestinians are not victims of Israel, they are victims of Hamas. While Hamas deliberately kills babies, Israel tries it’s best to execute the war it’s been forced into, without killing babies.
Why don’t you justify the twin towers, or is that what you are trying to do? Kill innocents until sanity is achieved? Destroy everything until peace is achieved on your terms? Are you trying to prove that atheism is the exact opposit of perception?
Add this from what:
“Is support of tribalism part of your particular brand of “free-thought”?
Another string of pearls into the pig pen. Here goes: Tribalism is something that exists in uncivilized societies. Town again town, family against family, religious sect against religious sect. The most advanced societies still embroiled in tribal warring are found in Arab societies with a high percentage of fundamentalist Muslims, such as Afghanistan, Pakistan, Chechnia, Iraq, etc. As an atheist, I would expect to hear you railing against the religious idiots slaughtering each other over tribe and sects of the same mindless religion. But, no you rail against me for seeing you for what you are as you side with the worst of the worst of them.
Tribalism has NOTHING to do with free thought, it just has to do with YOUR lack of thought.
NeoWolfe
NeoWolfe
But you do support tribalism therefore you are not a free-thinker. Sorry to be the one to break the news to you
To those that support the Israeli Invasion of Gaza:
Doesn’t it bother you that the same folks that sold you the Iraq Invasion are selling you the Gaza Invasion? Whats more they are using the same transparent propaganda methods. Fool me once …
The Israelis say they are targeting Hamas but that isn’t so according to this Norwegian doctor in Gaza:
http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=4698406n
The numbers say that Israel either doesn’t give a rat’s ass about Palestinian civilians or is intentionally targeting them … or both.
NeoWolfe
Unraveling the rights and wrongs vis a vis Israel is a frontal lobes thing. You will never understand it.
your mythology is way behind the times. It’s atheists who are supposed to be killing and eating babies these days. Before us, it was Jews.
Israel has clamped down on media coverage of Gaza while providing full access to sites hit by Hamas rockets.
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/07/world/middleeast/07media.html?_r=1&hp
Meanwhile the Israelis have out done themselves by bombing a school and killing 42 civilians according to Reuters.
http://www.reuters.com/article/newsOne/idUSTRE5053R720090106
This is last post on this subject. Pearls are expensive, and swine don’t seem to appreciate them much.
You don’t have to be a free thinker to understand the horror and insanity of war. You can, to the best of your ability, try to avoid it, or any other manifestation of the sociopathic side of our social psyche. But, no matter what we do, the evil side will always have one advantage. To drag the good side down to it’s level, force it to battle on it’s own terms. And, next thing you know, good looks itself in the mirror and realizes it has become what it hates. Thus such sayings as, “Freedom is not free”, and “To preserve the peace, you must prepare for war”, and “you can start it, but I’m going to finish it”. As long as sociopathic monsters sit in positions of power, the leaders of peace loving societies will be forced to commit acts against their conscience to preserve the welfare of the people they represent.
I have studied the Arab-Israelli conflict from it’s beginning. Quite frankly, because it’s fascinating. But, as in any human story, bad things were committed by good people, and the “fog of war” makes the gray line between good and evil even harder to see.
But, Hamas, is an organization who central edict is the destruction of the Israelli state, no matter how many innocent lives they must terminate. They have no military targets, just neighborhoods like yours. They will not negotiate, because Israel will not leave. And anyone who thinks that Hamas is acting in the best interest of the Palestinian people has gone from nematod to the shit they eat.
NeoWolfe
Gee NeoWolfe Hamas has an edict? Wow scary edict! I think what is more frightening than edicts is a bomb dropped on your home that kills your children. Wouldn’t you agree?
The only reason you side with Israel is because of a psychological phenomenon know as Stockholm Syndrome.
No and Yes. No I’ve not been to Israel, but my nephew’s best friend is a girl from Israel. He spent a month with her in Israel last year, then she, her friend (an Iranian Jew), and her fiance spent 4 day at my farm last spring (with my nephew as well). We didn’t discuss politics much; however, my impression of them was that they were VERY SECULAR, they just want to live a life of peace, to persue their careers and, and to have families of their own. They even smoked a few doobies with us, and introduced us to their Hokum?? a smoking device they brought with them. My nephew said their families are the same, with little to no religion in their lives; lives that are quite similar to ours.
All I know was I liked these folks a lot. They were not radical religious soldiers, though they did serve in the military and didn’t really care for it. I simply couldn’t see them as people that would wish harm on anybody, and know they would live in peace if they were allowed to.
Now, about that sensitive side. Yes I am sensitive, and always will be (gave up on getting tough, it ain’t me). I’ve crossed swords with What before, and was verbally degraded with uneccessary name-calling. It kinda left me with that bad taste, ya know?
However, What responded to this post with a wonderful, civil disclosure, and I thank him. What, perhaps your friend suffered a form of PTSD. Wonder why he had to poke the guy’s eye out? Was he following orders? Trying to preserve his own life? I guess it doesn’t matter, but it seems he’s not so different from my friends in the sense that violence was not his thing.
I never met a Palastinian. Wonder if they have the same capacity for peacefulness? Or are they more radical? It seems that their religion tells them to kill all Israelies, and do they even have to opportunity to be raised without religion? So many questions make it difficult for me to judge this situation. I’m just trying to say that Israel is the only Democracy over there, and they may deserve some kind of protection for at least trying to live under some semblance of freedom. My nephew felt totally free over there, and was not discriminated against.
I could be wrong.
Is that what you meant by “mind-bogglingly absurd”? My reference to Israel’s Democracy? Do you feel they’re better described as a Theocracy? Dictatorship? Anarchy? Just curious.
cry4turtles
Their are surely Israelis that are decent people that just want to live in peace. That was never in question. What I find deplorable is the use of disproportionate force by the Israelis. They have a long history of this behavior and the US has a long history of supporting it. If you want the violence to stop then stop being an enabler and call for the withdraw of US military aid to the region.
In your last post you also focused upon the question of religion and its part in the continuing violence. Religion is part of the mix for sure as much as it creates a tribal environment. I have always maintained on this blog that religion, or other goofiness, is by itself of little consequence. What do I care if somebody believes we have been visited by aliens from a distant planet. It rarely causes harm. But when these goofy beliefs are used as a nidus to form tribes then significant consequences occur. These tribes, because of their social structure, can be used by those hungry for power to do much harm. Also with a critical mass of tribe members the latent desires of the tribes members can surface (mob mentality) in certain situations and rule the behavior of the tribe as a whole.
It is tribalism that is the danger and religion is just one, and a prevalent one indeed, of the many tools used to form tribes and maintain tribal affinity. Jewish tribalism is the source of Israel’s grotesque over reaction and Palestinian tribalism is the source of their aggression.
I totally agree. My hubby is not big into world events, but he questions me occasionally. I’ve described Israel as an abusive father and Gaza/Palistinians as overly defiant brats. Most children of abusive parents try not to push their buttons, but Palistinians seem to spend their days PUSH, PUSH, PUSHING those buttons. I know it’s highly stylized, but I think it illustrates that both are in the wrong. Kinda like if you poke a stick in the eye of an angry bear, don’t be surprised when he rips your head off.
Thanks for explaining the tribalism thingy. You’ve used that term often and I wasn’t quite sure what you meant. It certainly makes sense.
Well then please join me and the civilized world and stop feeding the bear.
Here
, I found this page while on this topic.