Recently, I went to a friend’s house for a drink, and another of his friends came over. As we spoke, she talked on and on about her Judaism, rather incessantly. She was one of those “cafeteria” Orthodox Jews. She turned on light-switches on Saturday, but didn’t drive. As most of you know, I was raised Jewish, and I know my way around religious Judaism. This girl was wrong — very wrong — about a few things about which she really should have been right. But when I mentioned I was an atheist, I got a very unexpected reaction. She said I hurt her feelings. Again, I said I was an atheist, and the said that I had hurt her, because I don’t believe in god. Talk about Jewish Guilt — I hurt her by simply stating that I disagreed!I don’t usually get that kind of glazed-eyes reaction from Jews. I usually get a much more measured response, because atheists are more common in Jewish families, and critical thought is more tolerated than Christians….or so I thought. Now, here was a perfect contradiction. A self-righteous, in-your-face, cafeteria-style, self-contradictory, and clearly brainwashed Orthodox Jew. She sounded as if she had just graduated from Liberty University, as opposed to a Yeshiva. A very predictable (with a Christian!) discussion ensued — she wanted to talk about god, I wanted to talk about her bigotry. We talked about her bigotry. I made my point very clear: bigotry is bigotry, no matter what side you’re on. Nobody gets to be offended because I say what I am. That’s step one. You want to debate? Argue? Sure, but first get over yourself. You are not offended, hurt, or owed an apology, just because I don’t believe in your god. Neither am I hurt because you believe in an invisible man in the sky (actually, she thinks God’s a woman — Like I said, cafeteria).Happy Chanukah
Once again Dave demonstrates that he has not escaped the tribal brain washing of his youth.
This is one of the things I’ve come to realize about being an atheist–the fact that I exist is in itself offensive or threatening or unsettling to many people, at least in the United States.
Classic quote!
I think the “Happy Chanukah” was meant tongue-in-cheek–or would that be tongue-in-keyboard?
That’s how insidious fundamentalist xian propaganda is. Less than a third of Americans are fundamentalists, and yet more than half are creationists.
Not that the xians are the only successful propagandists. Practically everybody thinks that anti-Zionism is anti-”Semitism” — and even more think “anti-Semitism” is a sensible word.
Castletonsnob
I see no evidence supporting that interpretation. Dave simply does not recognize his tribal-based bigotry.
Hurt feelings just because you identified yourself as an atheist? Wow! Talk about thin-skinned!
How delightful. I think I will go about offending a great many people this holiday season. I had no idea these people had such enormous sensibilities. Hey, do Jewish people eat ham?
So very true…we are all bigots to some degree. Part of that “fallen” evolutionary process…no matter how hard we try, we will ALWAYS express thoughts of bigotry from time to time…
Have a wonderful holiday season Dave…enjoy the time with your daughter and your wife…these special years never last long enough…
Too true.
What’s back? I thought you abandoned this blog, What?
What-
I don’t think Dave meant it literally. When I read ‘Happy Chanukah’, all I got out of it was sharp sarcasm.
Good for you Dave to point out her bigotry. Sad thing is, I’m sure it has, and will, fall on deaf ears. I’d bet that she thinks you’re the bigot for just stating you don’t believe in god.
She probably doesn’t have a clear understanding of the word.
Yes, the Chanukah greeting, after a rant against Jewish brainwashing, was intentionally meant to be sarcastic
What’s a bit of an ass. Didn’t he leave? Phreedm extends kind holiday wishes and What looks for reasons to complain. Is that who you want to be What? Do you want to be more negative than the supposed troll?
Do we ever escape the tribal brainwashing of our youth?
A friend of mine suggested I stay in touch with my “roots” by lighting candles for the first night of Chanukah so, as an experiment, I decided to comply.
I couldn’t find any Chanukah candles in the house so I substituted birthday candles for them. It made for a somewhat odd ceremony. There I was, wearing my little beanie, lighting candles, chanting “baruch atah Adonai, elohenu melech ha-olam, asher kidishanu b’mitzvotav, vitzivanu l’hadlich ner, shel Chanukah” while simultaneously thinking of the song “put another candle on my birthday cake,” that I learned watching the Sheriff John Show as a kid.
Frankly, I think Sheriff John and TV brainwashed me more than the family religion.
Really, is this a suprise? How did our families react when we ‘came out’ to them? I know I am not alone, but declaring my Atheism was darned offensive to my family and their beliefs. They were HURT.
The “offense” was probably interpretation..what she heard was “you think I am stupid because I do believe in God”. I’ve heard this from the other side. Imagine, “he probably doesn’t believe in God, either”… referring to you before the group.
But, you can be all thin skinned, which is pointless, or confident. With this woman, you can really open up the discussion. “Ok, I don’t mean to hurt your feelings, but tell me where I am going wrong…I don’t see how I would ever know this God exists…?”
A little objective evidence is never too much to ask.
I am tired of people thinking that all bigotry is bad. It’s not. Bigotry against theism is positive and beneficial to mankind.
test
A very interesting discussion- really quite central to how we deal with many church/state issues. How do we manage differing with one another without offending.
Splitting hairs a bit, there can be a difference between offended and an offense.
The person may well have been offended, but could possibly have been helped to understand that there was no offense, neither (from your description) spoken nor intended. so her taking offense could not be justified.
If you’d stated that you think believers are stupid, then yes, that would be an offense, and she would be justified.
But we’ve got to get to some place where we can say “I don’t believe the way you do, but it’s OK with me for you to believe differently” without offense.
Unfortunately, for too many of the religious, it’s not OK to believe differently.
Chanukah – the celebration of the hateful casting out of Greek idols from the “Temple of Solomon” if I recall my OT-NT King James Version insert correctly, I really don’t see the appeal for an atheist Dave.
Okay, Christmas too, huh!? The celebration of the miraculous busted hymen (virgin) birth of a guy who was meant to be slaughtered. Even less apealing to an atheist.
Perhaps Kwanza!? Get real!
No, Happy Holidays Dave, may your Christmas Solcetice by Merry and Bright with friends and family and gift giving.
….I meant Winter Solcetice, I really meant Winter, duh!
Happy Saturnalia Everyone,
I don’t understand this stuff about being Jewish and an atheist. I don’t describe myself as a xian and an atheist or more precisely a protestant and an atheist.
To understand more about Jewish mythology which led to xian mythology take a look at the book or the video documentary “The Bible Unearthed”.
Also, a couple of French researchers have made two documentaries on early xianism: “Corpus Christi” and “The Apocalypse”. The early xians were in fact no more than another Jewish sect. In the end, it all boils down to politics.
Reading between the lines here, Phreedm was certainly saying that Dave is somehow “fallen” and and deserving of hell. I still don’t know if phreedm was insinuating that the general divorce rate is very high with his offhand “these things never seem to last long enough” comment though, or if he meant that the children grow up very fast. He probably meant all possible interpretations though.
She couldn’t rebuke you with logic so she tried to rebuke you with guilt. Cowardly and childish and typical of those anchored to such fragile ideology..
Part of caring for our fellow human beings sometimes requires a bit of tough love in the form of reason and critical thought.
You know, I knew there was something about this thread that reminded me of a previously posted thread…
Dave…perhaps your friend’s friend merely “ASSUMED” you were a practicing Jew…
And her “hurt” was really embarrassment…
Don’t you think true tolerance would have simply let the conversation end after her proclamation of “being hurt”…?
After all…doesn’t the superiority of human “reason and critical” thinking call us to lift each other up?
Oh wait…wrong belief system…
Here’s a question…which group in our society get offended more?
Theists?
or
Non-Theists?
an interesting question phreedm
I’m not sure what the answer is but perhaps more interesting would be to look at what it is that offends each group
It seems theists are most offended by those who question ideology.
Non-theists seem most offended by those who do not question ideology.
In a flash of unusual mental brilliance, Phreedumb asked:
“Here’s a question…which group in our society get offended more?
Theists?
or
Non-Theists?
What the idiot doesn’t understand is that his question is irrelevant.
Freethinkers are offendeded by idiots lack of obvious perception. Theists are offended by freethinker lack of faith. When you want to understand, phreedumb, we are here for you, and I (speaking for myself) am willing to help you, but the first step must be your willingness to step outside your insanity. Until then, no one, neither santa nor angel can help you.
NeoWolfe
I’m offended when people do harmful or unnecessarily abrasive things.
Somebody’s ideology only comes into it when that’s the reason they are being offensive.
David
We have gone through six years of a fraudulent war designed by jewish zionists and there has been not a single peep from you about this fact. Why is that? Zionist Bernard Madoff perpetuates the biggest case of fraud ever committed yet not a peep from you. Why is that? The only time I have ever seen you make an anti-jewish post is after goading by me. Why is that?
Your tribal affiliation severely compromises your ability to serve in the interest of American Atheists Organization and atheists in general.
What
What rule are you citing, that says Dave has to take an interest in every single thing that any commenter is interested in?
What evidence do you have that the Bush Administration’s policies were “designed by jewish zionists” (as opposed to being demogogic pandering to Zionists — whether Jewish or not — and the Bush league’s other constituencies)?
NotSoFast
This is blog about religion and the harm that it does. What bigger issues of our times than these?
Have you heard of the Project for the New American Century? Do you not know these names – Wolfowitz, Pearl, Abrams, Feith, Kagan, Kristol, etc? Do you not know of their central roles in selling the Invasion of Iraq?
Pandering? They were running the show!
Comment from Neo…
Need I say more…
I fancy I’m a bigot against bigotry. And though in my weaker moments I contradict myself, I always try to remember to consider the feelings of others before I speak.
But most importantly, I weigh the integrity of my antagonism through scientific methodology and the lessons we’ve learned from history. If this is bigotry, I yield. Sometimes you just have to take a stand.
However relative my position may be, I still believe: – evil flourishes when good men do nothing – in this context, evil being the subjugation of our fellow human beings
phreedumb quoted me on this:
Comment from Neo…
Freethinkers are offendeded by idiots lack of obvious perception.
Thus, implying that I’m a bigot. Okay, I agree with an earlier post, that we all have latent prejudices that we may not be aware of. But, you did not finish the quote, and the strike on your deliberate but lame bait:
“Theists are offended by freethinker lack of faith.”
So you are a bigot because you can’t understand my lack of cooperation in buying into blind faith, belief in ridiculous fairy tales, so I can come to peace with my mortality. If I need a mental crutch to deal with reality, I can think of several drugs that yeild more pleasure, and less devastating side effects than religion. But, either way you go, you no longer own your mind. That’s why I’m a free thinker and you are a nematod.
NeoWolfe
I have always felt that this sense of being ‘injured’ by the mere existence of non-believers points to the innate insecurity felt by the religious. If they were secure in their beliefs, another’s non-belief would not be perceived as threatening. For similar reasons, attempts at converting others to their religion borders on an obsession with many Christians, for it serves to reinforce their own shaky belief system. As a life-long atheist now sixty years old I have often felt like a Christian in the lions’ den [hence my blog ID] when attending a public gathering of believers. The pressure to ‘go along’ and join the masses is ever-present, yet I have always managed to resist it, even as a child. We are all born atheists. No child is born believing in gods or religious hokum. But the various churches that peddle religion have always adhered to the same philosophy espoused by big tobacco companies—as exposed by industry whistle-blower Dr. Jeffrey Wigand—and that philosophy is “Hook ‘em young, hook ‘em for life.”
Lions Den
I won’t be surprised if a Joseph Camel starts peddling their message.