I wrote that new poll because I was reminded of a discussion I’ve heard/overheard many times: attending a religious event being thrown by friends or relatives.I’m not only talking about “services” (weddings, confirmations, etc.), but also Christmas parties – where they really get into the religion. Do you go?I do. I figure it’s OK to go to someone else’s house from time to time. I won’t participate in any prayer or hide my atheism (of course), but I would have missed many important moments with my friends and family if I had skipped out on all those Bar Mitzvas, weddings, and yes, funerals. Some atheists refuse to go. They say that going, in and of itself, implies acceptance or inclusion. In fact, when I tell them I disagree, they look at me with a sense of disappointment or betrayal. But that’s bunk. Friends and family are important, and as long as you are not breaking any of your own personal rules or closeting yourself, I say go and try to have a good time. After all, sometimes, people come to your house too.
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Just as Christians avoid all others, not only as a commandment of their religion but also because their faith is so weak it cannot withstand exposure to other ideas, so an atheist, who holds fast to his non-beliefs can withstand the exposure to religion. I have attended parties and dinners of Christians. I have been shunned as well by them.
I haven’t really told very many people about my beleifs yet. Not becuase I’m ashamed, but iIm afraid of the reactions that I’ll get. See, I’m still in middle school, almost high school. So every year I’m drug down to my friend’s Christmas party. I personally have always just sat back and laughed at everyone who references to God, thinking how oblivious to reality they are.
I go to weddings and funerals to support my friends and relatives. I just ignore the religious crap. They know Iﾃδ｢ﾃやぎﾃや┐m an Atheist. Some respect it, some donﾃδ｢ﾃやぎﾃや┐t. Thatﾃδ｢ﾃやぎﾃや┐s their issue not mine.
I don’t have a problem with going to parties and such. I won’t go to a Bible study or church revival.
As you said, family and friends are important.
I returned to my desk today after working on a user’s computer to find a Christmas card waiting for me. When I opened the card it had a manger scene on it and bit of scripture, on the inside the person had written “Merry Christmas!” The person that left the card doesn’t know much about me and I’ll admit I was surprised to get a religious card from him because he never struck me as the Christian type. I put the card up for display and moved on with my day. He didn’t try to convert me and simply said “You’re welcome” when I thanked him for the card before leaving today. Would this have been an opportunity to go into a christian vs atheist debate? Sure. Instead I saw somebody trying to do something nice for others and decided to be grateful. Next month at the SQL programmers meetings I’ll start a debate with him after we each have a couple of beers.
To balletdancer234:
Just in case you think Jr high is rough, wait until you hit high school. Peer pressure can make people miserable.
Be proud of who you are and don’t let what other people think about you make you change yourself.
Use these opportunities for social interaction to learn as much as you can. You will be in with a mix of Christian, Hindu, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim and others and this will allow you to get a lot of experience. Learn from it. This way when you defend your atheist beliefs you can use what you have learned in your own defense.
I do happily go to my family’s Christmas parties because most of them are the traditional kind, such as typical gift-giving, cooking a big dinner and the family gathering. And yes, I do celebrate the day because A. as we all know, its NOT Christian, its organs are cultural paganist, and B. its a important family moment.
Naturally I wouldn’t go to any religious celebrations, like I would not set foot in a church or anything like that. Nor do I believe any of the stuff the Christians tacked on to this day of the Winter Solstice (Yule). My family has very sadly bashed me with the typical “your going to hell” quotes, and they are heavy into the delusions of the religion, but thankfully their not evangelicals or anything like that and do a religious celebration or anything.
I refused going to a Christmas party this year, but that was because my brother has a pregnant wife and he told me not to be around his wife and baby because I don’t believe in the gospel. Anyhow, so I refused to get a ride from him to that christmas party because I didn’t want to have a confrontation or have to trash Christianity with his wife in the car (something I take pleasure in doing is in thrashing religion, of course it makes me look like a devil worshipper in their eyes, nope, I’m just atheist though).
Oh well, fuck him, I don’t want to be around his wife and kids if I can’t be an honest atheist, i.e. just be myself. He goes further though, he tells me the reason he has this nice engineering job and wife is because he is such a good christian and that I’m a fuckup because I’m an atheist. Oh contrair, I’m a fuckup because I entertained religion for too many years when I should have just been an atheist like what comes natural to me.
No matter, I will outdo him by doing the best I can with the life I have, I don’t need any crummy superstitious beliefs to be succesful in life, what I really need is just to be a student of reality and to live within the means of that reality, ergo atheism is part of the solution.
Quantum said this:
“Oh contrair, I’m a fuckup because I entertained religion for too many years when I should have just been an atheist like what comes natural to me.
Dude, can I ever relate. But, be careful, just because your eyes are open doesn’t mean your wife’s, your children’s, and you’re inlaw’s eyes are open. You don’t need to draw a line in the sand and take a stand. Enjoy your family and friends and forget that its a hypocrical pagan holiday. Freethinkers need suffer no episode of conscience to enjoy being with their family. Name me a free thinker holiday when religion gives us a few days off to go home and revive old bonds. I rest my case.
NeoWolfe
The downfall of any truly religious man is in his integrity in his beliefs and thereby his slaughtering and warping of reality to conform to fantasy.
I draw the line at funerals. The last couple I attended were sermonized so emotionally, I felt like I was locked in a psycho ward.
For a party, if you’re upfront with your nonbelief and specify that you’re not going to take part in any religious rituals, and the host doesn’t rescind your invitation, then why not go?
I can’t go to those types of gatherings because of the religious display that’s inevitable.
I’ve been tricked into a prayer circle before, so lessons learned.I had to hold hands with a group of family members, knowing that they all just fooled me seconds before, and for no good reason.
Religion spoils things immediately for me. It’s like ciggarette smoke to someone with extreme asthma. I have to get out, before it happens.
It’s great that so many other Atheists can easily withstand religious displays in their presence. I’m glad those displays are minimal in size and depth.
For me however, religion eradicated that fine line between acceptable displays of stupidity, and unacceptable displays is insanity.
I think there should be a section on the AA website dedicated to discussing the act of escaping religion. Many of us Atheists are Atheists because of religion, because we had to be religious against our will. We got out of that, and life is great now, and I’d like to put it out there that not only is it great to be free, but that particular freedom is still just a dream for millions of people.
There are so many different kinds of non-religious people out there. This is another significant portion, I believe.
Joe Zamecki
Austin
I’m not sure why this post couldn’t have been written without insulting those of us who are not willing to attend events like this. Personally, I’d never look down on you for deciding to go. I’d hope I wouldn’t be demeaned for choosing not to go.
Comment from: dw
DW…I missed the commandment. Would you mind showing it to me…?
Comment from: balletdancer234
I don’t mean this as being sarcastic, but an honest questions. Have you ever wondered if it’s your perception of reality that’s wrong…?
One bit of advice…don’t close your mind to ALL possibilities as so many non-believers are forced to adhere to…
So many of lifes gifts come from the unexpected…
Joe…great comment.
Exactly how is your freedom different from others…?
It seems many Atheists move along a “coming out continuum,” not always forward, but sometimes sliding back and forth in terms of their level of participation in religious events. I’m with Dave–to me, it’s all about family. I missed too many weddings, funerals, and Christmases because I thought my attendance betrayed my non-belief and/or meant I endorsed religion. Now that I’m more comfortable with my Atheism, it’s not an issue of all. It helps that my family isn’t ultra-religious–they more or less just go through the motions, even when it comes to things like baptisms. Still, I’d rather put up with a little religion than miss out on important events in my loved ones’ lives.
Just as Christians avoid all others, not only as a commandment of their religion
Not actually a commandment. But it’s in that darn bible, which I prefer not to quote for anything. Give me a little leeway, ok?
I go to some parties; some are more comfortable than others. Actually, the annual Solstice Party my friends and I have been celebrating for about 3-4 years now evolved out of attending those other xmas gatherings. We wanted to do something that was more fitting to the season than all the god-blathering that went on.
At the other parties, when prayers are invoked, or the god talk arises, I usually just step back and remove myself quietly from the action. At one particular party each year with my circle of tennis pals, it’s very difficult to avoid the prayer circle, as it is done around the table. So I hold hands, but don’t participate in the prayer. Some of the women know I’m an atheist, but don’t believe I am really “that way”. Rather than start an argument with them- I am a guest at someone else’s house, after all- I hold my tongue and allow them their moment.
This year, a Christian freind attended our Solstice gig, but she declined partaking in any of the ritual activities. Instead, she watched and gladly manned a camera and took photos for the yearbook. She thought the activities were fun and meaningful, but didn’t fit in with her views. That didn’t stop her -or us- from having a great time!
I sympathize and can still remember how hard it can be to be any sort of different from your peers when young. It is normal to want to fit in. My experience is to hang in there, it will get better as you get older and find out there are many more like you.
While I have never suffered what I considered idiots well, for good and ill, you need to pick your fights. I will stand up for the pledge, but I just change the religious portion to under nothing. I refuse to accept the swearing in oath for jury duty; I affirm. I am a volunteer board member on local non-profits, but will not join religious oriented ones like Lions. I was elected a delegate to the local Democratic Party convention, but when I saw the agenda included an invocation, I resigned from the party.
Anyway, each person has to find their own way and decide which events they can suffer. I find with age I am much more militant in my atheism. But for me, to limit yourself to only those events that you know will be completely secular is isolating. I have had interesting discussions at holiday events with believers who had never talked to an atheist before. I have also met and discovered fellow atheists in the community.
vjack
Insulting you? How so?
You know, I’m so open about being an Atheist that we no longer get invited to ANY holiday parties.
Went to my Brother-In-Laws funeral. Didn’t enjoy the sermon style or all of the “He is now in a better place smiling down at us” BS but I went to be with my Wife and to support my family in their time of grief.
I would go, but no one in my circle has parties that include religion. If someone prays in my presence, I listen respectfully, just as I do when someone is speaking (even if what they’re saying is nonsense!). The prayers are just as effective as wishing out loud, so why would their meaningless talking bother me?
I don’t bow my head, I don’t close my eyes, and I don’t say amen. I just listen. Think of it like you might think about Am. Indians doing a rain dance. You would watch – it might seem interesting or even mildly amusing – you know it’s not effective, but you respect their right to have their ritual.
quantum_flux–
WOW! Does your brother think his wife has no brain, and that she would be swayed by you??? Does he think she needs her husband to protect her from the opinions of others?? I feel sorry for her! And for you too! I’m sorry your brother is treating you this way!
As far as him being a successful engineer, etc., because he is a xian – my ATHEIST husband is an engineer, makes 6 figures, is great at his job, and has a VERY nice wife (if I do say so myself!) Why?? Because he is smart, works really hard, and really long hours, and he is faithful to me, kind, loving, and funny!! Has NOTHING at all to do with his lack of supernatural beliefs.
I’ll bet you the majority of people on this blog are successful and extremely intelligent.
AARRGGHH!! Well, quantum, I feel for you. I wish you a happy holiday season, and I think most of the rest of us here on the blog would say that as well! Have a happy New Year, and try to hang around people who will appreciate you for yourself, not for your un/beliefs.
i self-identify as an atheist. however, i celebrate christmas, as well as attend weddings, funerals and holiday parties. while these events have a religious significance to some, to me they have a cultural significance. i believe that there is a difference. unlike a lot of people in this blog, i did not become an atheist because religion was forced on me. i was raised catholic and i was made to attend church until age 14. at that age my mother determined that i was mature enough to make my own decisions about whether i wanted catholicism to be a part of my life. i chose for it not to be, but it was a while after that before i was comfortable telling other people that i was an atheist. however, my christian relatives have never ever tried to persuade me otherwise or made me feel bad about my beliefs, and i have never done that to them either. i don’t hate religion; it does a lot of good things for a lot of people. it is just not for me. i am comfortable with my own beliefs, therefore attending a christmas party or a christian or jewish or hindu wedding does not shake them. it is just an opportunity to have fun with family and friends.
My brother’s wife happens to be a brain surgeon, she’s one of those Christians who believes in 4.5 billion year Evolution and in Christianity. My brother believes in strict 6000 year creationism. It is something of dispute between them, they even tought a sunday school class and my brother made up a story about how Adam and Eve lived in a tree-fort that God made for them, I think he might have even drew a picture of this tree fort and made it look like a very cool tree fort that all the sunday school kids would love to have in their backyard, this seriously concerns me, I don’t even think he understands what radioactive decay is and yet he holds an engineering degree.
Is the engineering degree from Religious U?….I often wonder how credible a science degree would be from a Religious U
No, but that’s not the point. The point is that there is no proof of the existance of god and yet otherwise rational people go on believing it and they spread it around as though it makes perfect sense to them.
maybe there not that rational…..
and when I say there I mean they are
quantum…
So your sister-in-law is a brain surgeon and your brother is an engineer…
Obviously very smart people…and yet you doubt their intelligence when in comes to religion…? Have you ever asked them why they believe?
DW…here’s a hint. It’s not in the bible…
You’d be surprised what the rational mind can come up with when it ignores reality and lives in fantasy. It can live with and rationalize away all manner of contradictions in order to support a fantasy version of reality. It is how the Egyptians built the gigantic ceremonial pyramids based on faith in non-existant gods.
Just for specification here phreedm, yes, my brother and sister-in-law both have their faith in gods. They both have different beliefs though (Evolutionary Creationism vs Young Earth Creation), in fact all religious people have different beliefs whenever it comes down to the details. That is not very scientific, there is no evidence to support those views, merely about 6 billion different religious hypothesis and they are all falsified by virtue of contradictions with each other. There can only be one truth, phreedm, and it can’t be arrived by mere speculation but by virtue of rigorous testing of the specific details.
Phreedm,
You never, ever learn.
You asked if it’s that atheist’s perception of reality that’s wrong. You seriously asked that question. You even asked it and stated beforehand that you weren’t trying to be sarcastic.
Yet, there is no evidence of your god.
So for you to ask a silly question like that to an atheist makes you look completely ridiculous. What kind of response are you looking for? Do you *REALLY* expect an atheist to say: “Hrm… yea, I guess I could be wrong… you’re right, I shouldn’t call you wrong, just because you have no evidence. I’m going to respect your beliefs, even though they do not have any evidence whatsoever. You win.”
You’re a complete idiot.
phreedom –
2 Corinthians 6:14-17 (NIV):
Do not be yoked together with unbelievers. For what do righteousness and wickedness have in common? Or what fellowship can light have with darkness? What harmony is there between Christ and Belial? What does a believer have in common with an unbeliever?
What agreement is there between the temple of God and idols? For we are the temple of the living God. As God has said: ﾃδ｢ﾃやぎﾃで的 will live with them and walk among them, and I will be their God, and they will be my people.ﾃδ｢ﾃやぎﾃつ
ﾃδ｢ﾃやぎﾃで典herefore come out from them
and be separate, says the Lord.
Touch no unclean thing,
and I will receive you.ﾃδ｢ﾃやぎﾃつ
Also, 1 Cor. 15:33 (NIV) says, ﾃδ｢ﾃやぎﾃで泥o not be misled: ﾃδ｢ﾃやぎﾃね廝ad company corrupts good character.ﾃδ｢ﾃやぎﾃや┐ﾃδ｢ﾃやぎﾃつ
Yet Luke 15 1-2 says: Then drew near unto him all the publicans and sinners for to hear him. And the Pharisees and scribes murmured, saying, This man receiveth sinners, and eateth with them.
So, at one point the Bible says not to associate with sinners yet the example Jesus gives is one of associating to save.
phreedm – no, not as a commandment. But it is said that you are not to mix with others of other believes. Please don’t respond to my comments, unless you have something constructive to say. thanks.
Phreedm – Whoops. I didn’t know you were a believer, if I had known that I wouldn’t have responded to you at all. I have made myself a rule not to respond to those who are “under the influence.”
Slightlysouthofsane – Hey, thanks for that. You shot him down for me.
tony miller made this quote”
“Do not be yoked together with unbelievers. For what do righteousness and wickedness have in common? Or what fellowship can light have with darkness? What harmony is there between Christ and Belial? What does a believer have in common with an unbeliever?”
And there are so many other quotes like, “bad associations spoil useful habits”. This is exactly the point that I made on another thread about how religions come to own the lives of their followers. They seperate you from your friends outside your religion, pressure you to marry inside the church, and suddenly your entire life is the property of you friendly neighborhood Jim Jones. And now you stay in the church and do as you are told, or lose everything.
NeoWolfe
If we visit a home and find the occupants engaging in ritual religious lunacy we, as quietly as they have allowed for, leave. Sometimes we leave for another room and sometimes we just leave the home altogether. It all depends upon the situation.
When others come to our home and express dissatisfaction with the absence of ritual religious lunacy we take them aside and inform them of the house-rules. There have been times when certain individuals, possessed by an obsessive compulsive religiosity, have not been able to abide by the house-rules. They are not invited back.
From the town idiot:
Our phreedm is masochistic.
Hey…Tony,
Nice try…but you must stick with the original comment before you attempt to answer…
DW (who has bailed on backing up his claim. A true sign weakness)..made the following comment…
You’re quoting Corinthians, while refreshing that someone on this board actually knows something about the bible, is discussing an entirely different idea. It doesn’t tell us to “avoid others”, it tells us not to be “yoked” together. Be it marriage or business. I’m sure you’d agree with that concept…
And you’re final comment…
This is in just as much error as DW’s original comment. It never says “do not associate”…it says do not be “yoked together”…huge difference.
Can you imgine the outcry had I posted a few verses from the bible…?
you’re=your
phreedm, where’s my response you piece of shit?
mushinronjya asked phreedumb this:
“phreedm, where’s my response you piece of shit?”
Temper tantrums are MY trademark. Stop working my side of the street!! (Smile) Get used to it, these guys don’t answer relevent questions, they just vibrate around taking things out of context and deliberately missing the point. They ARE, in personality, exactly what they represent, self blinded, self deluded, and they have chosen their mental crutch because they needed one. As part of their pathology, they come here, not to change our minds, but to hang on to the thread of their own fragile eroding belief system. Sanity is always looming on the horizon for them, and it threatens to destroy their delusion. They have no choice but to fight, because admitting defeat will force them to come to grips with the fact that they have wasted their lives supporting something that continues to drag humanity toward extinction. Weak minds don’t cope well with that sort of realization. They sit in the dark, by choice, and there they will stay.
NeoWolfe
Through confidence and empathy, stand firm on your beliefs. Hop on board the human merry-go-round and use the opportunity to show the unique blend of reason and compassion most privy to the free thinker.
A peaceful presence offers the greatest collateral for what you do and say.
Be neither a recluse or spectator. Be progressive. Participate in life and make a difference.
nice post, Tuen.
NeoWolfe
wood catholic statues
As catholic social services new york related topics continue to increase in popularity, there will be many more locations to learn more about this weighty theme.
This post is dedicated to Phreedumb and his fellow nematods. A freethinker string of pearls thrown into the pig sty:
Comment from: dw
Just as Christians avoid all others, not only as a commandment of their religion
DW…I missed the commandment. Would you mind showing it to me…?
Phreedolt, you know exactly what he’s talking about, “do not become unevenly yolked with the unbeliever,” and “bad association spoils useful habits”, you’re a squirming little snake, avoiding the point deliberately. Churches separate you from your unbelieving friends and aquaintences, pressure you to marry in the church, now your family is hostage and the church owns your balls and your mind. Sucks to be you.
But this just phreeks me out:
“”"Joe…great comment.
I think there should be a section on the AA website dedicated to discussing the act of escaping religion. Many of us Atheists are Atheists because of religion, because we had to be religious against our will. We got out of that, and life is great now, and I’d like to put it out there that not only is it great to be free, but that particular freedom is still just a dream for millions of people.
Exactly how is your freedom different from others…?”"”
How naive is that? Let me explain the difference so that even a preschooler could understand. Freethinkers look at facts and then draw conclusions from them. Religious zealots draw conclusions, then search for facts they can spin to validate their delusions.
Freethinkers watch the news and read books to fill in the holes in their view of the world, Religious zealots read fairytales and then search for reasons to believe in them.
Freethinkers weigh what is known and proven and freely decide what they believe, Religious zealots sit in pews and let other people tell them how to interpret fairy tales. Is the difference starting to become clear to you, phreedork? Of course it isn’t, because Satan has blinded the eyes of the believer. Before you balk on that quote, remember who created Satan. If you want to believe in fairy tales, why would you assume that you have not been duped into worshipping the wrong side? Look at the record of organized religion, the crusades, Spanish inquisitions,
Salem witch trials, what would lead to believe you are not worshipping the Devil?
You are what you do. And so far, your god has been “Jehovah (Yahweh) of Armies”, paraphrased, Jehovah the marauding genocidal sociopath, do you pray to someone who loves you and your family, or do you cower before someone you fear will wipe away the insulation you try to protect between you and and your inevitable mortality.
On a new strain, jcc, accused Dave of exposing his doubt about his eventuality with fear of death. I didn’t answer then, so I will now, our freedom is that we do not hide behind fairytales because we cannot stomach the reality of our own mortality. You do. NOW, do you see the difference?
NeoWolfe
To Phreedm:
You probably already know of these quotes from the King James Version, you can find them at
http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/says_about/index.htm:
2 John, 1:9
“Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son. “Whosoever … abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God.”
2 John, 1:10:
“If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed.”
So its not just atheists that are to be rejected but anybody that doesn’t have both a belief in god and a belief in Jesus.
- It’s not a secret that most churches and christians practice a form of “disfellowship” that calls on practioners to disassociate with anyone not of their faith.
I think it disingenuous of you to pretend that there is no such biblical directive so that you can try and make some obscure point.
As for the original topic…
I firmly try and avoid parties of those I know to be religious, but will attend ANY family function even when I know how much they’ll be pushing their religion on me. The only time I balk at family parties is if they try to push their religion on my children. But, that seldom happens anymore, they were too embarassed by my last outburst…
Fernando