Yup. Sure enough, Phreedm was right. I fixed the Jefferson quote.
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Excellent.
It’s always better to be accurate than speculative.
Good. Information should be evaluated on its own merits and not judged only by its source.
Of course phreedm is right about that, but who cares? Do you know that our forefathers had their hands in the history books in their own time? They decided what to say about themselves and what not to say about themselves in public education. This is exactly why history is a speculative subject matter, there are no reliable sources for history and that’s human nature. Everybody has their own agenda and thereby everybody will broadcast only what they wish others to know while leaving out the other details. Religions, of course, get away with murder and pedophilia when it comes to doing this sort of thing, perhaps Pheedm would like to go there huh?
[When] the bill for establishing religious freedom… was finally passed,… a singular proposition proved that its protection of opinion was meant to be universal. An amendment was proposed, (to insert) the word “Jesus Christ,”… The insertion was rejected by a great majority, in proof that they meant to comprehend within the mantle of its protection the Jew and the Gentile, the Christian and Mahometan, the Hindoo and infidel of every denomination. — Thomas Jefferson
David,
I’m glad we atheists admit when we are wrong about something and do what we can to correct our mistakes, instead of sticking to dogma even if our opinions are proven wrong!
I’m sure “he-who-shall-not-be-named” will be disappointed that you actually fixed this. I’m sure he would like to believe that this mistake was a deliberate attempt to re-write history to our benefit.
AARRGGHH!! I HATE seeing HWSNBN mentioned right in the post!
Nice edit job Dave…it should still be a concern that you’re not posting the entire paragraph, but instead editing it to fit your needs…
I’ll make a prediction…the replacement quote won’t last either. It doesn’t fit the bill at all proclaiming the “myth”…instead it validates the claim that it was governments responsibility to get involved, not to just sit on the sidelines and observe from afar…but to protect all religions (even if they weren’t part of “our religion).
By the way…thanks for the credit. Contrary to what some may think, it’s historical accuracy that’s critical…
http://religiousfreedom.lib.virginia.edu/sacred/vaact.html
Wow…imagine that. Jefferson was a “creationist”
Don’t Breedm is still at it, of course.
Jefferson was a politician, lobbying other politicians for support for his statute for religious liberty. And he got it: a law that protected everybody’s right to believe or not as they saw fit.
And before Darwin, Deism was a respectable philosophical position, even for scientists.
Well, Phreeedum, I’ll do you one further. Thomas Jefferson believed that dinosaurs and mankind coexisted at the same time because it was impossible for any “creature” to go extinct, nature simply wouldn’t allow that to happen. Henceforth, he had the retarded “watch out for mastadons” theory that he told to Lewis and Clark. That, and the fact that Thomas Jefferson owned slaves and didn’t even have a problem with it, he didn’t even try to get rid of slavery even though he wrote “it is self evident that all men (what, no women?) are created equal”.
But of course, Thomas Jefferson did have this to say about Christianity and religion in general:
“I have recently been examining all the known superstitions of the world, and do not find in our particular superstition (Christianity) one redeeming feature. They are all alike founded on fables and mythology.”
And as for his self-described beliefs:
“I am an Epicurean. I consider the genuine (not the imputed) doctrines of Epicurus as containing everything rational in moral philosophy which Greek and Roman leave to us.”
When dealing with Founding Father quotes, one must not be dogmatic. As Quantum mentioned, they said some right things, and some wrong things, so finding something they said and taking it as unchanging cannon is not consistent with logic.
What IS important is this:
1) We have undeniable proof that this country was not based in Christianity, or made for Christians. This is important because Christians want extra rights, and use “This is a Christian Nation” as a foundation to defend that quest. We must counter that idea to defend ourselves, and this is where FF quotes come into play.
2) That being said, the Christians could very well amend the constitution to MAKE this country a Christian Nation, because the FFs built that into the Constitution. We came very close to that, and still are. This is why we need to fight.
I never thought of it that way, but I guess cannon’s (that are usually made of steel) are about as unlikely to change as canons.
Oh boy. And I thought Silverman couldn’t possibly top his colossally ignorant assertion that “very few … churches … do anything at all for their community.” So Dave, are you now attempting to revise history to claim that Madison was not the “chief architect” of the Constitution, or that he didn’t borrow heavily from the Presbyterian form of church government to base its foundations, concepts and ideals on? Oh, but you’re right; that fact couldn’t possibly be construed as it (the Constitution) being “based in Christianity.”
Oh, yeah, right… Well, on second thought, I suppose if homosexuals can lobby for, and be granted “extra rights” then, yeah, why can’t Chrisitans?
Oh contrair, Christians actually don’t believe in rights. They know nothing about the law because they’re taught about a different kind of law from the time they’re teething, and that law has nothing to do with causality. Christians are all up inside the emotional centers of their brains, so much so that all reality ceases to make sense for them and thus they think they are exempt from the law (insert jail statistics here).
jcc
Canyons do change, but not because of Noah’s flood; because of real geological processes. (BTW, you leffed off the tilde over the 1st n.)
Gosh, a rational thought from jcc?! Maybe there’s hope for everybody!
And you were doing so well. Get back on your medication, quick.
quantum_flux:
I just love it when an atheist (trying to look like the smartest person in the room) claims to know exactly what others believe or don’t believe — especially when he fails to apply the same standard to his own assertion that he attempts to use to destroy his opponent’s argument with. When will he learn that true, objective science can be a two-edged sword?
NotSoFast:
And you “leffed” out the ‘t’ in lefted…
Had I been referring to canyons, I would have made it obvous.
Hmmmm, interesting. I take that as an implied agreement that the Constitution is based in Christianity.
There’s always hope for everybody.
And there’s the usual personal jab when a point cannot be refuted by reason and facts.
Has anyone else seen PZ’s post about the baby with the *tumor* in his brain? The tumor turned out to be a glob of baby parts; a quasi-fetus in his brain.
http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2008/12/awesomely_horrible.php#comments
So, phreedm and jcc, should the docs have left the fetus in place to continue developing, eventually killing both its host and itself? Did it have a soul, or merely a sole?
karen:
You’re right, that is interesting, but I didn’t see any mention in the news article (not the Myer’s pap) about the parts being attached to another body or that there was evidence that those parts could develop into anything resembling a whole, conscious human being, so nice try.
That’s karen, always the comedienne.
jcc
Yeah, but what possible reason could an omniscient, omnipotent being have for strewing body parts in someone’s brain? Seems like a bit of a brain fart for something so mighty and knowing.
Just to make us go, “Huh?”
Did he gather up some aborted parts and try to make a point with them?
And if it had been an organized fetus, what then?
jcc, I wasn’t talking about science though. I was actually talking about how christians don’t believe in the old testament law, but they think that the gospel suffices. Unfortunately, old testament laws are not American laws and thereby religious people end up in jail because they don’t know anything about the laws of the land that they live in (insert jail statistics here).
jcc, imagine trying to play football but with all rugby rules and you’ll figure out why christians go to jail more often than other religions and even atheists. Christians, simply, believe they are exempt from reality or that reality will conform to their worldviews until the shit hits the fan and a police officer takes them out or they try to fly off a cliff and then splat into the ground because they believe that “mind is over matter”.
jcc
There is only one t in “leffed”. Get the wax out of your ears and lissen to people more carefully.
You might even learn some more important things….
Your reading skills could use some work, too.
karen:
You’re asking the wrong person.
Maybe it was more likely to make us go, “wow, now how did that happen; and what can we learn from it?”
See the above reply.
Playing “what if” is for kids.
Since we seem to have strayed far off topic anyway:
Just for giggles, jcc, please enlighten us as to how the Earth was formed and when.
And how you “know.”
On the idea that America is a Christian Nation, jcc stated:
“Oh boy. And I thought Silverman couldn’t possibly top his colossally ignorant assertion that “very few … churches … do anything at all for their community.” So Dave, are you now attempting to revise history to claim that Madison was not the “chief architect” of the Constitution, or that he didn’t borrow heavily from the Presbyterian form of church government to base its foundations, concepts and ideals on? Oh, but you’re right; that fact couldn’t possibly be construed as it (the Constitution) being “based in Christianity.”
jcc, as all religious proponents, he builds his own version of history. The idea that Madison was the core force in the content of the constitution lacks any root in history. The builders of the constitution, while amid the voices of the pro slavery christians, were free Masons. George Washington, John Hancock, Benjamin Franklin, and scores of others. While, in the Free Mason tradition, they supported freedom of religion, they did not believe religion had any function in the work place. Religion was how you chose to make peace with the god of your choosing, but business is where you get things done without distraction. That is the heritage of our constitution. With all due respect, jcc, take your claims of christian origin of this country and insert them carefully in your anus. Don’t injure yourself, but put it where it belongs and leave it there.
NeoWolfe
neowolfe:
You’re right, all my history books just made all that up about Madison (they musta been written by fanatical Christians).
Oh, so you’re saying it was, and is, impossible for someone to be a Freemason and a Christian?
Oh I just love how tolerant and respectful the atheists on this blog are of others who have differing opinions! You guys are the paragons of atheistic virtue in how well you treat anyone who’s “not like you.” You beautifully exemplify the model of “progressive, free thinking” by your embracing and acceptance of diversity in all forms.