There is a movement afoot to revoke the Mormon tax exemption due to their promotion of prop 8 in CA. I’m all for churches paying taxes, so check it out!http://lds501c3.wordpress.com/
There is a movement afoot to revoke the Mormon tax exemption due to their promotion of prop 8 in CA. I’m all for churches paying taxes, so check it out!http://lds501c3.wordpress.com/
Sorry, I disagree. That’s punishing people for having a different opinion. As odious as that opinion is that still constitutes indirect suppression of free speech.
If such a measure is to be considered it should apply to all tax exemptions for all churches.
thx1138
That’s ridiculous. Are you saying that the US Code linked to in the post should not be enforced? Are you saying that it doesn’t apply? And what is “indirect suppression of free speech”?
thx1138
More directly to your point … What is being suggested is not to punish people for having a different opinion. What is being suggested is that they, by their actions, have disqualified their church from tax exempt status. It’s that simple.
What,
Yeah, I stand corrected. Thanks for that. I didn’t read the link.
You know, that disqualification could be applied to *lots* of religious organizations to boot.
I don’t understand why gays in California are so angry. It was put to a statewide vote, and the majority of voters got their way. The issue is over.
That’s how voting can kill a huge amount of progress. To oppose the outcome of a “fair election” is to be against the will of the people, in theory, so who are they trying to convince, and of what?
This Mormon issue is besides the point. It’s like the losers trying to cheat after the game’s over. Even if the Mormons broke a law…they get away with doing that all the time, regardless of voting.
Once again, the minority loses out, seemingly as a guarantee, with this “system.” It’s too bad that voting is the only game in town, this time. Clearly the majority is often WAY wrong.
BTW – This blog would not let me post the “L” word to go with “gays.” The result of another “election”? lol
Joe Zamecki
Austin
Joe-
I understand where you are coming from, but…
This is flat out bigotry, and to me, no different than if we voted away the right for women to vote.
Gay people are born the way they are, just like women.
It is disgusting that the gay community is still being treated like second-class citizens, for no good reason.
It is actions like these that keep America from progressing like other countries- those who treat all people equally.
For the most part, we have religion to blame for the narrow minded attitudes of the people who supported this proposition.
Quick to judge,
Quick to anger,
Slow to understand.
Ignorance and prejudice,
And fear walk hand in hand.*
To me, that sums it up in a nutshell the religious in this country.
*Neil Peart
Joe you obvioulsy are not gay nor have you ever experienced the frustration of second class citizenship. Please replace the word “gays” with any other group (blacks, left handed people, atheists, straight white men) and then tell me what you think of this hateful and unAmerican legislation. The bottom line is that the mormon church overstepped its legal mandate to refrain from political activism as outlined by the IRS and should now lose its tax exempt status. The office of the president of the LDS sent a letter on 29 June of this year which was to be read to every congregation in the state of CA advising church members to vote Yes on Prop 8 which was an indisputable violation of their tax exempt status. This is not just about gay rights Joe but rather it is about the infringement of one groups religious beliefs onto another groups equality as granted by the Equal Protection Clause of the Fourteenth Amenmdnet of the Constitution of these United States.
I have sent in my complaint to the IRS and have prepared complaints for everyone that I know to sign and send in as well. The mormon faith is not as important as my freedom is and all people who care about faith overstepping its bounds to have a negative impact on liberty should take action. Today it is gay equality that lost but tomorrow it could be your rights that are taken away becasue of someone elses religious objections.
Godless: That was expressed perfectly. .
Prop 8 is a crime and the major perpetrators are the knights and the mormons. The knights work as an unofficial mouthpiece of the catholic church, so its safe, more then likley, but the mormon chuch spewed its political opinions from thier pulpits, for this thier status should be revoked.
I have just forwarded this tax exemption complaint against the LDS to every atheist and free thought organisation that I could think of and have just printed a stack of copies of the IRS complaint form for distribution tonight at a professional gay and 1esbian group that I belong to as well as the Duke and UNC campuses. Look for this complaint against the LDS to appear on Dawkins site, FFRF, and others. The IRS must make an example of the mormon churchs violation of the law and revoke their tax exempt status now. The disastrous last eight years has emboldened religious organisations to flaunt the law but this time they have gone too far and the anger it has caused is serving as a motivation and call to action for those who are concerned over the power of religion to negatively impact peoples equality.
Getting angry about the outcome of a vote isn’t going to make the outcome change. If you rely on a system that shuts down your momentum immediately as soon as the voting is done, that’s no one’s fault but yours.
Besides, who in their right mind thought that a state vote on gay rights would go the way that the gays want?
Reason #12A to avoid democracy.
Joe Zamecki
Austin, TX
I disagree. The visceral and raw anger over this decision has motivated thousands of people to get up off their arses and take to the streets and courts of law to demand equality. Watch the news to see this in action.
http://www.advocate.com/exclusive_detail_ektid65230.asp
http://www.advocate.com/news_detail_ektid65120.asp
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,447744,00.html
http://www.nbclosangeles.com/news/local/Protestors_Signal_Battle_over_Same_Sex_Marriage_Not_Over.html
This could be another Stonewall.
Joe….you like most people, are trying to link voting for people that represent your views in governing, with voting out very basic human rights and dignity….humans rights and dignity of an individual…an individual’s right to love an honor at thier choice….
please go back and read the bill of rights….
and Joe your an atheist…as Bill Maher pointed out….people voted for P8 due to religion telling them that its bad to poke in the naughty place…
Biose Jim, your injection of Rush into the discussion is noted and greatly appreciated.
and here is some Rush Lyric:
There are those who think that life
Has nothing left to chance
With a host of holy horrors
To direct our aimless dance
A planet of playthings
We dance on the strings
Of powers we cannot perceive
The stars arent aligned —
Or the gods are malign
Blame is better to give than receive
You can choose a ready guide
In some celestial voice
If you choose not to decide
You still have made a choice
You can choose from phantom fears
And kindness that can kill
I will choose a path thats clear
I will choose free will
Joe
What godless said. All laws must be constitutional and if they aren’t they should be challenged. I really don’t understand your argument or even what it is. Please clarify.
What is it that is “no one’s fault”? Once again I do not understand your post.
What do you advocate instead of democracy. I’m all ears.
Ahhhhhhh. Rush.
Joe Zamecki
180? wrong.
The Mormon issue IS the point. They are the ones who cheated. Just because the game is over doesn’t mean they can’t be penalized.
Here’s Bill Maher about P8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qP9lO9KNasQ
Ahhhh Rush indeed. Best band ever. I’ve been hitting every tour they’ve done since ‘92, just in case it’s their last.
These ballot propositions do serve one important function: they serve to remind us all why pure democracy is mob rule, why pure democracies aren’t just unweildy, but a really bad idea. It’s ironic that it’s the conservatives are all about following the letter (rather than the spirit) of the Constitution, yet they keep firing our propositions like this one that unscore just why we have a constitution in the first place.
I have been on the phone calling every LDS church in the state of NC as well as SLC and demanding to know why they think that their religion gives them the right to infringe on my freedom as guaranteed in the 14th Amendements Equal Protection clause. Mostly Ive been hung up on.
godless
Maybe you could record and post one of those calls.
Cynic
I have never been to Rush show. I should remedy that. I enjoy reading their lyrics as much as listening to their music and that double whammy is what makes them special to me.
Ditto.
Gotta love Rush. Brilliant lyrics, intricate melodies, and breathtaking musicianship. Occasionally pretentious but always entertaining.
I’ve seen them in concert a few times and really had a great time, except for the fact that everything is cranked to eleven. This tends to distort the sound and detracts from the overall experience, at least in my opinion.
Hey c-snob;
Sounds like you didn’t see them on the Snakes and Arrows tour. The sound was perfect, and they are at their peak when it comes to musicianship.
I did actually see them in their Snakes and Arrows tour at the Nokia Theater in L.A. and was floored when they played “Natural Science.” I would have enjoyed it more if they didn’t have things cranked up as high as they did, but I still had a great time. As I said, volume is a personal preference–it didn’t bother my wife in the least.
One of my favorite Rush stanzas comes from “Natural Science”.
The music + lyrics thing is what puts them over the top for me as well. I prize both highly, and finding them both at such levels is rare. Plus I’m a sucker for a good instramental. It’s a lost art — Snakes & Arrows made up for the recent lack of them. Hell, Malignant Narcism alone made up for that.
Their shows are great. No opener, just Rush — a lot of Rush. You can tell they’re getting old though. It’s not in their prowess, per se. They really do seem to be at the top of their game. But they’re starting to arrange their sets carefully to avoid overly fatiguing any one member too much, and I suspect the new instramentals were as much to give poor Geddy a break as much as nostalgia.
A few tours back Geddy and Alex did an accoustic, no drums version of Resist will Neal was recovering from a drum solo that was awesome.
I just listened to The Spirit of Radio. Damn! They rock!
Xian rock makes my skin crawl.
I’m sorry I completely derailed this thread. I didn’t mean to.
Any updates on the Mormon church and this whole mess?
The Mormon church….just as funny as the catholic church….but for not as long….
all my conversations with the superstitious end with me stating I have respect for the individual…I have no respect for the monotheistic institution….
and as many has stated…it is about an individuals right to choose the one they partner with….
this core basic understanding is what freedom means in a great democracy….
If people want thier views heard in a democracy…they vote for representation….they dont mob the bill of rights….the courts will have the final say….again and again and again….
Charlie
What’s with the use of the ellipsis? It’s a feature of Phreeky’s posts that has frequently commented upon here.
There are lots of other Funny Mental Cases as bigoted against the Mormons as they all are against us. If you’re following What’s divide-and conquer strategy, try to couch your criticisms of the Mormons in terms that don’t overtly include the Bible-believers.
What,
I’ll try to keep my leaps short
NotSoFast
NotSoFast
Yep. Never miss a chance to pit one religion against another but be sure not to be caught between them when the fighting breaks out.
NotSoFast
Could you please clarify this for me.
Well, I have an update:
Three Mormon churches here were vandalized over the weekend. Nothing serious- some broken windows- but it is assumed that it ties in with Prop Hate.
The news interviewed a ‘member’, and she said she was disturbed that someone could be so hateful.
All I could say was, ‘you fucking hypocritical bitch’.
Her goddamn church that she is so proud of is openly and unapologetically bigoted.
I swear, these religious freaks will never understand their own hypocrisy even when it slaps them in the face.
If you want to try a “divide and conquer” strategy, remind some of the church folk of how the separation of church and state benefits them. For instance, speak out at Catholic groups and remind them of the long and virulent history of anti-catholic prejudice and repression. When JFK made his famous speech about the separation of church and state, he did it before a group of protestant church leaders… because he had to- to counter the prejudice! Politics has made Evangelicals, Mormons and Catholics bedfellows but they are strange bedfellows indeed. Plenty of hateful statements about Catholics (and Mormons) have been made by the Jerry Falwells and John Hagees of the Evangelical world. I think the light should be shined on them again… and again… and again.
Obeah
I didn’t have any particular ploy in mind; I just said “try”. It will be especially difficult in this case, because the fundamentalists are also against gay rights.
But the fundies despise the Book of Mormon. I don’t know if it contains any specific passages against gays; if you know of any, you could emphasize that the Mormons are likely following that rather than the anti-gay passages in the Bible.
You could also point out that the Mormon religion encouraged polygamy and forced marriages of young girls, until the federal government forced them to back down. The renegade Mormons who still follow these practises are also believed to be murdering and exiling adolescent boys, to keep all the girls for the old men.
The LDS church stopped these practises after the president of the church had a convenient “revelation” changing God’s will for his people, just in time to forestall prosecution. The fundies, of course, regard the Mormons as “false prophets”.
The Mormons also follow aggressive missionary activities and are growing faster than most churches. If you’re talking to a fundamentalist whose own denomination is not growing so fast, you might stir up some jealousy there. . . .
And if you’re talking to blacks, don’t forget to mention the LDS history of racism!
Boise Jim
We mustn’t condone criminal violence. Take the fucking hypocritical bitch to court.
“Vengeance is mine, I will repay,” saith the constitution.
NSF
Nice merman and evanjellocal baiting strategy.
NSF, are the mormons growing so fast because of high birthrates or missionary activity? I’m reading “Under the Banner of Heaven” right now, and from what it says about birthrates of Utah is that they are higher than in many third-world countries, and it may be that they actually lose more from their flock than they convert, but they still have a growing flock.
We need an influx of non-mormons into Utah. The mormons are successful recruiters in part because they reward their convertees with inside business connections and promotion from within. If that recruitment strategy can be neutered by influx of non-mormons demanding equal treatment under employment law then their numbers will fall off.
Also we really need a two child law in the US for so many reasons.
I don’t pay more attention to unpleasant things than I have to. I don’t have any details about Mormon shenanigans, just snippets of news that catch my eye now and then.
Yes, all the religiotics are really psychotic about filling up the Earth with as many excess children as possible. And Yes, the Mormons do have an intensive and highly organized program of proselytization. Kids in their late teens are expected to spend a couple years of their lives working as missionaries. (Talk about “community service”!)
What,
Let’s get it quick, before we have to make it a one-child law!
I don’t know how regimented Mormon voters are, but the Catholics have really got it bad:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/27705755/
On the other hand, the same page has a link to this:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/
21134540/vp/27664539#27664539
A pastor encouraging people to have sex! What is the world coming to?