VP debate thread.Did Palin alienate the religious right by not talking a firmer stance against gay marriage? How many times is she going to cross her eyes? And can’t any Republican properly pronounce “nuclear”?
VP debate thread.Did Palin alienate the religious right by not talking a firmer stance against gay marriage? How many times is she going to cross her eyes? And can’t any Republican properly pronounce “nuclear”?
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here’s a question for the xtian trolls:
if palin were obama’s running mate would you consider her in the same light as you do now?
and if you say yes you are lying.
on the other hand, i would feel the same way toward biden’s qualifications as i do now even if he were mccain’s running mate.
so all your xtian spin is irrelevant when the rubber meets the road.
phreedm
I meant ‘our’ to be a generalization of the american public. I lament this new paradigm as much as you do.
Yeah, so Palin has got some ‘executive experience,’ IN ALASKA. She’s pretty well versed when it comes to the rather insular world of pipeline maintenance, commercial fishing, and systematic wolf slaughtering. But she apparently doesn’t know shit about the rest of America and even less about the world in general. It is painfully obvious that she’s less than an amateur when confronted with national or international issues. Plus her governing style appears to be very Cheney-esque, tapping into the fascistic tenants of evasion, ‘executive privilege,’ and the abuse of power to settle personal vendettas.
To put it bluntly… she’s kind of a dumbass, and my yardstick is brains, always.
And please, do call me an elitist. I enjoy that.
r4d…
If you read the transcript…again…both candidates were asked questions that they did not directly answer…
It’s a debate…that’s what happens…
You’ve torn Palin down…how about providing the experience that draws you to Obama?
Even Biden stated Obama isn’t qualified to be President…
Was he wrong then? Or is he wrong now?
G.S.,
“Most reasonable people would agree that having the choice to marry the person you love is a basic right.”
I don’t know where you get your “reasonable people”, but marriage never has been a right. It has always been a social institution that society defines, not the individual. Now, it’s true that religion and morals are involved, but the basic fact remains – there is no constitutional right to marriage, period.
I will be the first to admit that society may some day re-define marriage, but it will be the choice of the people, not a panel of unelected judges somewhere.
djpoobah1,
Divorce has nothing to do with it.
People in Gay “marriages” will get divorced too.
There is a larger context that you and many others simply miss or choose to ignore. Society has a vested interest in marriage because marriages produce the next generation. The institution of marriage has a stabilizing effect on society as a whole.
Now, some will argue that if marriage is re-defined there won’t be any negative effects. I strongly disagree. Further, who gets to re-define it? What is the proper and just way to approach such a monumental change for society?
I will tell you the wrong way. It is simply wrong to allow a small, vocal minority to use strong-arm tactics and judicial subversion in an attempt to re-define marriage!
Phreedm,
Based upon the comments I see here and on other blogs regarding the debate, it’s clear that despite what Obama supporters say, the choice isn’t about “smarts” at all. Never has been.
Just look at the cult-like following Obama has. I can’t tell you how many Obama supporters I’ve heard in interviews when confronted with the truth about what he intends to do ADMIT that it doesn’t match their core values, but they STILL believe in this guy!!! It’s like they have given their critical thinking skills (assuming they have any) a vacation! No worries! Obama’s gonna take CARE of me! He’s the ONE! On and on ad nauseum.
Now here’s something we can only hope for. It may turn out the Obama is not a U.S. citizen at all! There is an ongoing lawsuit that if successful, will REQUIRE him to produce an official birth certificate. This he has adamantly refused to do, which is a complete mystery, because it’s so easy to do.
Check out http://www.obamacrimes.com
This is not some crackpot. The guy suing is a big time Democrat with a pedigree. He’s not F’ing around.
Here’s what is asserted in a nutshell:
1. The certificate Obama put forth, but has since removed from his web site is not an official birth certificate. Further, this document has been examined by experts and is believed to be an obvious forgery.
2. If Obama was born in Kenya as his Grandmother there asserts, he could only become a naturalized citizen – ineligible for the Presidency.
3. It is known his mother came to Hawaii before leaving again at some point with Obama’s stepfather to live in Indonesia. Obama would have had to become a citizen of Indonesia to attend scholl there. This is a fact not in dispute. To become an Indonesian citizen, his father had to have claimed him or adopted him. At that point, Obama would have had to become a naturalized citizen at some point to live legally in the U.S.A.
The big question is why Obama would not immediately put this to rest and produce the required evidence of his citizenship? If theis guy Berg is making this stuff up, it seems like Obama would have countersued already and he hasn’t.
Obama is well known for using any tactic necessary to silence his opponents. Whay hasn’t he been successful in this case, hmmmm?
Tim..
Good point…it is a “cult like following”. The truth doesn’t matter…
4rd…speaking of ducking the question…
You point out that perhaps people in big houses, (implying they have lots of money), don’t mind the Feds taking $1000.00 of their money…
Please see if you can answer this directly…
Do you have a problem with the Federal Government reaching into the pocket of one citizen, taking $1000.00, and redistributing it to another citizens pocket?
Here’s more information on Obama’s birth certificate from a post on http://www.atlasshrugs.com
There’s also the analysis there of the forgery claimed to be Obama’s birth certificate!
“Barack Obama has claimed in writing to have a valid printed document: In the first chapter of his book Dreams From My Father, describing his origins, he wrote about finding a local Hawaiian newspaper article about his Kenyan father: “I discovered this article, folded away among my birth certificate and old vaccination forms, when I was in high school.”
So where is that birth certificate? It got lost? The dog ate it? No matter. Barack Obama or an immediate family member can plunk down $10 ($11.50 if he orders online) and have Hawaii mail a certified document to him within a week or two. But more than two weeks have passed since the Obama campaign adopted the suspect, uncertified image of a purported birth document published by a left-wing blog Daily Kos, and nothing certified and nothing on paper has since has been forthcoming. Nor has there been any official comment about the issue from the campaign. They may cling to the hope — however audacious — that the one issue that could disqualify their man constitutionally from gaining the presidency will just go away.”
Hmmmmm.
phreedm,
Well I think we can both agree that in these debates it is pretty typical for a candidate to steer his/her response in a direction that supports their favorite talking points. That’s what frustrates me about these debates in general. But Palin’s tactics were so clumsy, so transparent, so amateur while at the same time so arrogant. I mean, like I said, she’s not so much trying to steer the topic to her favor as she is blatantly running away from it.
Obama has demonstrated time and time again that he has a strong handle on national and international issues. He’s a deep thinker, strongly considering both sides of an argument. He appears deeply suspicious of cant, which means that no particular interest group is ever going to be completely satisfied with his positions, and I say that’s a good thing.
It’s popular right now for conservatives to make fun of his time as a community organizer. In fact it appears, from what I can gather by checking some of the links you and Tim post here, that the term ‘community organizer’ has become synonymous with ‘rabble rouser.’ But I’ve had great experience with community organizing and advocacy groups here in portland. You have to work with a wide variety of people and viewpoints (some that you may otherwise find rather distasteful) to achieve a common good, a process that has all but vanished in Washington.
His experience as a constitutional law professor is important, very important IMO, as we have seen our constitution virtually shredded these past eight years. Executive power has grown to the point where our congress is essentially useless as a check against tyranny. My hope is that Obama would serve to restore constitutional balance. ( I would also have the same hope for McCain, as I do think he still has more class than Bush or Cheney. But Palin? No fracking way. She’s Cheney with lipstick and less brains. )
I think his time in both the Illinois State Senate and the US Senate shows him to be a tough, smart, and tactical representative. He knows how to play the game and make it work for good cause. Knowing how to play the game is vital in any profession. ( I always tell my kids that if you don’t play the game, then the game’s going to play you. ) Obama’s a natural at the game of politics. He asserts himself with convincing authority while still giving credit were credit is due, building alliances along the way. And yeah, he has a sort of velvet ruthlessness about him; a way of checkmating political opponents with a hypnotic smile and a firm handshake. You might ask: How could anyone ever consider that a good thing? Simple reason: Diplomacy.
We have a lot of potentially dangerous international issues facing us, even without Al Qaeda. Who’s going to better equipped at getting foreign leaders to see things our way? McCain might do all right, if he doesn’t lose his temper or take the ‘my way or the highway’ approach that has become so fashionable these past eight years. Palin would be a disaster – no one on the international stage takes her seriously. Biden has plenty of foreign policy experience and would probably do as well as McCain, if he can manage to check his blow-hardedness. But Obama already has them in his pocket. He’s already won them over. Obama is a chance for the United States to actually take a real leadership role in the world again, without necessarily having to resort to bombs or sanctions. This is probably the most vital requirement for a president at our point in history. We can no longer afford to go it alone. Our army is overstretched, our coffers are bankrupt, and our credibility is shattered. We need a healing agent. Shit, what we really need is a forced restart.
Plus I agree with the majority of his politics. I am left of center, after all.
So there, I’ve made my case (for like the tenth time on this blog.)
Biden was running against him. What the hell else was he going to say? Plus, at that point, I probably agreed with Biden. Perhaps Obama’s campaign convinced us both otherwise.
Or maybe you and I are both just coalescing around the candidates that represent our respective tribes. I mean, it wasn’t that long ago that you declared you would be holding nose when voting McCain, and it wasn’t that long ago that I had thrown Obama back in the doghouse for supporting the FISA bill and church handouts. I’m willing to explore my own tribalism for what it is, are you?
Tim,
That tin foil hat looks quite dashing on you.
http://tinyurl.com/5vrus3
Phreedm,
Your question is a loaded one. What exactly has been happening with the Bush tax cuts? Who shouldered the burden? Why is it that the gap between rich and poor has widened so much these past eight years?
There are valid reasons for a progressive tax system. It’s not about amounts of taxation, it’s about percentage of income. You and I have already had this argument, many times in fact. It really comes down to the fact that paying $1000 hurts a hellava lot more to the family making $50,000 than it does the family making $500,000. I mean, how can anybody argue against that? It’s just common sense.
r4d,
His time in the state senate? Oh yeah, I vote “present”… great example.
As far as his community organizer creds go he trained ACORN activists in how to employ disruptive tactics.
Your last post really confirms my earlier statements. You are a true believer, there’s no doubt. Too bad you don’t bother to check out the many facts that contradict all the glowing adoration of his “accomplishments”
r4d,
I actually read the link you just posted and it’s obviously for tiny minds. It doesn’t offer much, I’m afraid.
I wasn’t talking about the other “runors” anyway. All I’m posting on is the lack of an authentic birth certificate. There’s way too much evidence that what Obama “provided” isn’t real. I won’t be satisfied until the Federal Court gets the ACTUAL document and has it thoroughly analyzed for evidence of forgery.
Tim,
Oooohhh… the evil ACORN terroristssss! You guys are such dorks. Tell me, how far do you suppose the civil rights movement would’ve gotten had it not employed ‘disruptive tactics?’
And there is no way on earth anyone could’ve made it into public office without proof of citizenship. That’s beyond a stretch. I mean, talk about tiny minds… If that were possible, just what would it say about the Bush admin’s homeland security efforts?
Keep talking, Tim. Please, keep making more of an ass out of yourself. The whole lot of ya. I will enjoy your increasing irrelevance as you continue to conspiracy theorize yourself into the loony bin corner.
And you are a nut.
r4d,
Yeah, you got me! I’m certifiable… yawn.
Anyway, ACORN is a subversive organization deeply involved in voter fraud. They are being prosecuted for their crimes as we speak, at least in one state.
It’s funny you didn’t cite one of Obama’s major executive qualifications for public office. He headed up the Annenburg foundation and worked closely with William Ayers for a number of years.
Seems like he’d want the world to know all about what he did there, don’t you think?
Funny how he’s gone to such lengths to HIDE what are arguably public records for the period he was there. Just ask Howard Kurtz who tried to to an investigative piece on them. He was stonewalled at every turn and has yet to have the records given to him.
r4d,
Don’t forget to thank your buddies at ACORN for one other thing – their role in the sub-prime mortgage crisis.
Yeah, making threats against any bank that wouldn’t go along with the demand to loan money to anyone who wanted it definitely played a part in the mortgage debacle.
While you are at it, you might look into Obama’s ties to ACORN in this regard. I forget the name of the woman who lead many of the vicious campaigns against the banks, but she has some tie to your man, Obama!
r4d…
Nice list of your opinions and dreams about Obama…
However, you haven’t listed a single accomplishment…
Nobody respond. There are precondition that phreedm must type all his messages in icelandic mirror-script. Otherwise, we might endorse his opinion
Sheesh it’s diffecult reading posts from crazy people.
tim,
Yawn indeed. ACORN pays folks minimum wage to go out and register voters in low income neighborhoods. It is a rather thankless job, and as with many voter registration drives there are occasionally people who cheat and submit bogus registrations. These bogus registrations are almost always caught and it’s nearly impossible for them to translate into actual votes. But because ACORN focuses on low income areas, Republicans have done everything they can to harass ACORN’s registration efforts. ( It is a statistical fact that more new voters entered into the system always benefits Democrats. Just what does that say about conservatism? ) This is what the whole attorney firing scandal at the justice department is about. It’s why Gonzales resigned.
In every single confirmed case of voter registration fraud involving ACORN, it was these low level employees and not the organization itself who were prosecuted. In fact, the majority of these perpetrators were turned in by ACORN itself.
As far as them playing a significant role in the subprime lending debacle, I feel like we’ve largely covered that, as it is a demonstrable fact that the problem started when the rules became relaxed, leading to a boom in high risk, large return investments and complicated, bundled securities. ACORN’s role in housing has been to fight predatory lending and redlining of entire neighborhoods. Only an asshole would consider fighting those sort of things to be ‘subversive.’
ACORN is not a perfect organization and there is plenty to criticize. Its business practices can be a real mess; Founder Wade Rathke has had to step down after an embezzlement scandal involving his brother. Though the funds were eventually repaid internally, the scandal was covered up for eight years in order to protect ACORN’s reputation. In light of the right-wing’s desire to see ACORN destroyed, one can kinda of understand. But the reality is cover ups always make things look worse, so shame on them.
http://tinyurl.com/3rjajb
Obama was never an organizer for ACORN, though I wouldn’t fault him for being so because I think ACORN, for all its faults, has helped a lot of people. Obama was on a team of lawyers representing a lawsuit brought by ACORN, along side the Department Of Justice, against the the State of Illinois for not complying with voter access laws.
So the Annenburg foundation is also part of this liberal axis of evil you guys are so worked up about? It’s bad to raise money for education? Tell me, what do you think of Halliburton?
And as far as Ayers is concerned, he’s a loon with a rich daddy who got off on a technicality. He has also somehow been rehabilitated to the point where he enjoys quite a bit of respect within Chicago political circles. I don’t pretend to understand how that happened, but it did. I certainly don’t think Mayor Daily condones the actions of the Weathermen, and that guy worked very closely with Ayers. Should we take a cue from OReilly and ask Al Qaeda to bomb Chicago after it’s done with San Francisco? And if so, who’s more anti-american?
Or here’s a better question: What do you think of Palin’s ties to the Alaskan Independence Party? Is that fair game?
Tim,
Oh, and don’t forget to thank the role of the “prosperity gospel” in the sub-prime mess either.
McSame’s life story in The Rolling Stone is a must read.
http://www.truthout.org/100508A
Dave
Can you give Tim a thread of his own. The more he writes the better.
r4d,
“And as far as Ayers is concerned, he’s a loon with a rich daddy who got off on a technicality. He has also somehow been rehabilitated to the point where he enjoys quite a bit of respect within Chicago political circles. I don’t pretend to understand how that happened, but it did.”
Choke… gasp… Are you serious? Please!
You must live in a self-sealing bubble if you do not know that Mr. Ayers is an UN-REPENTANT, america-hating, domestic terrorist. Period.
Your statement is simply breathtaking in that it truly does reveal the mind control Obama must be exerting…
Perhaps you should go get Ayer’s book and READ IT. You know, the one Obama penned a glowing tribute to! Gag.
Phreedm,
Yeah, all those accomplishments Obama claims from his days as an Illinois Senator.
Funny, but you would thing there would be a paper trail – evidence of all his work. If one does exist, wht does Obama work so hard to keep it a secret, hmmmm?
Of course, the same goes for everything about his life. He’s the least vetted candidate that I think I have ever seen. Scary stuff, indeed.
r4d,
I expect your next post will parrot the line about Obama and Mr. Ayers hardly knowing each other.
Before you do, please, please do your homework.
r4d et al,
Yes, Obama IS “palling around” with an unrepentant terrorist. A terrorist that mentored Obama and gave him his political sendoff in his own Chicago living room! Pals!
If it were Senator McCain or Governor Palin that were doing this, you would have every media satellite truck in America parked outside the Republican candidates campaign office!
GMAFB!!! The media has been AWOL on the entire subject of Obama. Instead of doing their job, they are too busy falling all over themselves to pave the way for his ascendancy to the throne.
No, Obama himself isn’t a terrorist, but his judgement does not meet the standard required to lead the most powerful nation on earth. Obama’s like blank check a thief finds on the street. The signature is there, just fill in the amount!
:”Yes, Obama IS “palling around” with an unrepentant terrorist. “
And now Tim can make value judgments on others whom he knows nothing about and has never met.
How does he know that Ayers isn’t repentant? He doesn’t know, and this is just another lie from conservatives.
tim,
Well, I happen to think he’s an arrogant, faux-revolutionary, rich-kid asshole. But that doesn’t mean the other things I cited about him are not true. The fact is that he is deeply involved in Chicago politics, and there are plenty of republicans who are acquainted with him too. Maybe that just says something about the nature of Chicago politics.
If you’re talking about ‘Fugitive Days,’ I’ve heard that it is very badly written and that he may have lied about half of it anyway. If you are talking about his books on education, I’d rather get a root canal. And as far as Obama penning a tribute to any of these, I have no idea what you’re talking about ( and neither does google, apparently. )
Remember back in 2000 when surrogates for the Bush team where suggesting that McCain was a ‘manchurian candidate’ who had been ‘brainwashed by the Vietcong?’ That’s what this shit reminds me of.
Well that’s refreshing.
I don’t think Palin is a terrorist either, but she and her husband do have very close ties with an Alaskan separatist group who’s founder Joe Vogler was quoted as saying “I’m an Alaskan, not an American. I’ve got no use for America or her damned institutions.” Vogler eventually was murdered while attempting to purchase plastic explosives.
If the gloves are coming off and it’s time to play the guilt by association card, bring it on.
Timmy aren’t you by troubled by McCain’s paling around with the North Vietnamese for years. Even gave them a nice little confession.
Do you believe McSame’s account of the offer to release him – his captures say it’s time to go but McSame refuses? Tell me something Timmy. How is that possible? If his captures wanted him home all they had to do was drop him off in front of a US base – done.
Have you ever bothered tallying all the fantasies you believe? Just curious what the count is.
Side note: The goofy ‘nukular’ vs ‘nuclear’ pronunciation is an interesting point. Ironically, the incorrect ‘nukular’ pronunciation is used by most Pentagon types. Many times it’s only used when referring to weapons. Bush pronounces the word correctly sometimes as well, but not with respect to missiles and defense. I highly recommend linguist Jeoff Nunberg’s book “Talking Right”. He provides very interesting insight into the phenomenon.