Yes, I know I’m late and I’m sorry.9/11 is the anniversary of the worst faith-based crime on American soil in this generation (ever?). We need to continuously reinforce that point — and make sure religionists remember what religions can do.
Yes, I know I’m late and I’m sorry.9/11 is the anniversary of the worst faith-based crime on American soil in this generation (ever?). We need to continuously reinforce that point — and make sure religionists remember what religions can do.
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A religion can’t be judged in a vacuum. They don’t really have “true natures”, really. It’s all in how they’re adherents express them. The constitution has been, so far, extremely effective at watching out for the rights of individuals (note this plays into my main theme nicely
) and has unsurprisingly lead to a society in which the majority of people consider crossing certain lines in religion is unconscionable, and therefore they’ve mutated their beliefs to accommedate that.
What makes Islam bad right now is that there isn’t so much in place to allow that to happen, except the continuing shrinkage of the world. Let’s hope it shrinks faster.
Cynic
Well, as you might guess, I don’t think Islam is any worse than xianity and I am still waiting for justification of your assertion.
So how much blame should be apportioned to those who vote for destructive policy or vote for officials that implement destructive policy?
Cynic,
As usual, you defend your position well with valid logic. But, still, even though I have brought it up more than once, you have ignored the point that I have made that it is not Islam, it is the two hundred year old state of the society that accounts for their caveman behavior. That brings me again back to the real crux of the matter. It is not Islam, nor Christianity, nor Buddhism, nor Hinduism, it’s religion. If in your opinion, Islam is the most dangerous religion today, you may be right, but it may also be that Sept. 11 happened more recently than the bombing of the federal building in Oklahoma City. Or the burning of the Karesh compound in Waco. I’m not calling you wrong, I’m just trying to give you some food for thought that might temper your position.
NeoWolfe
What,
Find me an example of a present-day nation that allows rulings that are comparable to “kill the cable guy who delivered the smut you ordered” that are ruled explicitly in the name of a religion that is NOT Islamic.
Now, first off, there’s a difference between what you vote for and what you get. So blaming the voter only goes so far, and voting is a complex thing across a wide range of issues. Second, when we speak of those who vote for a destructive policy and how much blame to assign to them, it’s important to determine their motivations for it.
When referendums come up about gay marriage, for instance, you could argue that religion has bearing on that. But you know, not all homophobes are religious, not all religious are homophobes, and not all people that vote in favor of such things are necessarily homophobes (though they’d be hard-pressed to prove it).
On the gay marriage issue alone, such voting makes me hang my head in shame over the US. But you know, when you consider how many Islamic nations would howl with laughter at our quaint “votes” on issues that wouldn’t come up on a referendum because prisoners and dead people can’t get married anyway, well, it should put it in perspective for you.
And the closer you get to military-related votes, the less and less religion genuinely plays a role. You hear appeals to fear and the like, but outside of churches, and not really even in the majority of those, you don’t hear arguments like “we should invade Iraq because it’s populated with non-Christians!”
If you think that’s really in most American Christians heart-of-hearts, I just don’t know what to tell you.
So are PEOPLE responsible for what they vote for? Sure. Am I going to immediately transfer that to a direct charge on religion? Of course not.
NeoWolf,
Again I would argue that if present incarnations of Islam were not self-reenforcing then those states would not be 200 years behind their contemporaries. It’s not knives, guns, or bombs that make Islam dangerous. It’s the fact that most of the traditional avenues that have allowed other nations to advance socially are blocked by Islam.
Cynic
I can’t. Assuming that the cable thing is true that would be a few demerits for Islam. But we are in the process of tallying all the demerits for xianity and islam.
Of course not. But what if they state that they are voting for a candidate or upon an issue based upon religious considerations?
It’s difficult to come up with an example of a “Christian nation” in which such a vote has taken place or, if it has, that it has been allowed to matter.
Even the more obnoxious examples over the last 15 years, like the referendums on gay marriage, are blurry in motivation and comparatively weak compared to the crap we see coming out of some Islamic countries. Not all states were involved, so it was a state issue. Those decisions still came down to court decisions, which limits the “mob rule” aspects.
When it comes to gay rights though, it’s impossible to say that it’s a clear-cut religious thing. People have just been culturally primed to not approve of gays, just like people have been culturally primed to like anything else “not like them”, which resulted in crap like segregation laws, the sequestering of Japanese citizens during WWII, etc. (You could claim that last one was a security measure, but you’ll be hard-pressed to find the equivellent concentration program for German or Italian citizens.)
The dislike of gays is often talked about in terms of religion, largely because movements against them are framed in those terms. But the prevaling attitude seems to be that people don’t care, they just don’t want them to “marry”. Which is utterly irrational and speaks more to the idea that they just don’t like them, IMO, just like women and blacks voting.
And, it should be noted again that this wouldn’t even have gotten on a referendum in most Islamic nations.
Cynic
Forget “Christian nations”. Let’s talk about the USA. There are plenty of people here that vote in a manner that they see as being entirely motivated by religious considerations. I would guess a good 30% of our population.
In the remainder of your post you seem to be willing to give xians a “cultural pass” for their destructive behavior but you are not as generous for muslims.
Despite recent setbacks, I think the the social progress that has been happening and even accelerating around the world can be attributed to communication and instability — the small world effect. The more individual freedoms people get, the more people want them too.
I’m not giving Christians a cultural pass anymore than I’m giving Muslims one. What I’m saying is, Christians have been neutered, defanged, muzzled. Muslims, not so much in some nations. And in the face of this small world and what they see will happen to them, they’re getting LESS progressive. It’s happening in Turkey. Hell, it’s happening in the UK.
Rather than a pass, what I’m saying about US Christians is that, for the most part, their influence is negligable. They’re barking at the moon. They’re whistling in the dark. If you can think of any more cliches, let me know.
It’s not a pass, it’s a dismissal — a snub.
Even if you discount the comparative intensity and horribleness of the relious oppression on individual freedoms in some Muslim countries as compared to that of Christians upon American citizens, it’s the fact that there doesn’t seem to be a light at the end of the tunnel for them and prevents me from dismissing it as easily.
We watch Footloose (work with me here) and join in condemning those oppressive parents for not allowing them to dance, and tell ourselves that we’re glad those times are gone, or are at least abberations for the poor homeschooled students to bear. Meanwhile, some parents in some Muslim countries might get away with murder for catching their kids just WATCHING Footloose.
How can I consider that on equal footing?
Cynic
Negligible? The invasion of Iraq was a hideously destructive act and it simply would not have happened without the support of the RR. They are responsible for their votes and their votes lead to the deaths of 100s of thousands. Make no mistake they are religiously motivated voters, their primary issue is abortion and they will make deals with any devil to achieve their ends. The US is not a theocracy but don’t let the xian nutjobs of the USA hide behind their anonymous vote.
We have a VP nominee that thinks our soldiers in Iraq on “a task that is from God’. Negligible? Ubsurd?
If we can’t get past the point of assuming a vast right-wing conspiracy that single-handedly decided to invade Iraq because they wanted to prevent abortions, I’m not sure there’s any point in continuing. Any number of factors led to that invasion, chief among them fear — something religion doesn’t have a lock on.
Besides — this thread is getting pretty far down the site.
Ever feel like you walked into the Monty Python argument room? Hope you appreciate the reference.
If you want me to go on arguing, you’ll have to pay me for another five minutes!
(Yes.)
LOL