We support the separation of church and state, but do not endorse candidates or parties.The DNC Convention. Discuss
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As long as the govt. insists on stealing (yeah, that is the right word – when you “borrow” money from S.S. with no intention of paying back the money it really is stealing) from S.S., the S.S. program can be made to look as though it is failing. Put the money (even without interest) back and you’ll see that S.S. is more than solvent.
Oh, yeah. You know who else benefits from free trade. Huge corporations who pack up our jobs and take them to third world countries and open their own little “sweat shops”
Did I misinterpret something you wrote? Maybe you should express yourself more clearly. From your response it looks like I did not misinterpreted a thing.
I cannot seem to find a single shred of common ground with you. I said that I cannot bring myself to vote for Obama, I did not say that I am voting for McCain. If the congress were controlled by the Republicans and Obama would drop the socialized medicine bullshit I would consider it. It’s not, and he won’t.
Your profession may make you feel intellectually superior to others, but it doesn’t. You cannot even read a simple statement without making assumptions and charging about like a bull that has seen red. I stated my reasons for my opinion. If you somehow think that making a total ass of yourself by swinging at windmills is going to sway me to your point of view, you are sorely mistaken.
If you are trying to do so, do so with facts and evidence to support your claims. If you are not trying to change my mind, lay off the needling already because it is seriously pissing me off.
P.S. It might help your cause to avoid being inflammatory and cease using childish neologistic terms such as “rethuglican.” It might have been cute the very first time you used it. Now it merely remains as a constant reminder to the rest of us of the level of your intellect.
On the topic of the Democrats, I find it a bit hypocritical for a blog about atheism to be so supportive of a political party and a candidate that are so infused with religion.
Right on target…something I’ve been saying for years…
Why hasn’t AA or the ACLU condemned the opening church service which has used public funds?
Simple…they only use the “myth” for their own advancement…it has nothing to do with “Truth”…
It appears the weak minded on this board who support censorship are merely following Obama’s tactics…
A great window on how he’d governn…
“WGN radio is giving right-wing hatchet man Stanley Kurtz a forum to air his baseless, fear-mongering terrorist smears,” Obama’s campaign wrote in an e-mail to supporters. “He’s currently scheduled to spend a solid two-hour block from 9:00 to 11:00 p.m. pushing lies, distortions, and manipulations about Barack and University of Illinois professor William Ayers.”
Oh, yeah. You know who else benefits from free trade. Huge corporations who pack up our jobs and take them to third world countries and open their own little “sweat shops”
How little you understand…
How many jobs were imported to America?
Now, taxation and regulations wouldn’t have a thing to do with the cost of doing business in America…now would they…
Hope you have plenty of kleenex – All those tears might short out your keyboard.
I knew there was a reason that I rarely post here anymore. While I enjoy conversing with many of you, I receive this kind of treatment whenever I share opinions that some of you do not like.
Loathe as I am to admit it, I’m starting to think Phreedm is right. Maybe you are just shills for the Democratic party.
I’m not so much pro Obama as I’m anti GOP. I personally believe any vote for anything other than dems is a vote for the GOP and I won’t go there! Was independent till I went dem so I could vote for Gatewood Galbreth (sp). I worry that if the GOP can make Max Cleland seem not patriotic enough, what’ll they do to Obama?
I knew there was a reason that I rarely post here anymore. While I enjoy conversing with many of you, I receive this kind of treatment whenever I share opinions that some of you do not like.
Your problem conversing here is that you can’t seem to follow the guidelines you set for others. But even more importantly you have no authority to set any guidelines.
If you are trying to do so, do so with facts and evidence to support your claims.
Now that is a perfect example. You demand that others support their claims with facts yet you absolutely refuse to do so yourself. Here’s a prime example of that:
… and Obama would drop the socialized medicine bullshit I would consider it.
You have repeatedly stated here that Obama advocates for socialized medicine. This is grossly incorrect and I have pointed that out to you numerous times. There is a big difference between socialized medicine and socialized medical insurance. Either you do not understand the basic facts in this regard or you are intentionally trying to mislead. Is there a third possibility? You tell me.
As far as insulting my intelligence goes. I get a kick out of it.
I knew there was a reason that I rarely post here anymore. While I enjoy conversing with many of you, I receive this kind of treatment whenever I share opinions that some of you do not like.
Your problem conversing here is that you can’t seem to follow the guidelines you set for others. But even more importantly you have no authority to set any guidelines.
If you are trying to do so, do so with facts and evidence to support your claims.
Now that is a perfect example. You demand that others support their claims with facts yet you absolutely refuse to do so yourself. Here’s a prime example of that:
… and Obama would drop the socialized medicine bullshit I would consider it.
You have repeatedly stated here that Obama advocates for socialized medicine. This is grossly incorrect and I have pointed that out to you numerous times. There is a big difference between socialized medicine and socialized medical insurance. Either you do not understand the basic facts in this regard or you are intentionally trying to mislead. Is there a third possibility? You tell me.
As far as insulting my intelligence goes. I get a kick out of it.
Enlighten me on how many jobs have come to America due to free trade.
Taxation and regulation have everything to do with the cost of doing business in America. That was exactly my point. I guess the students on the short bus need a little more time get the message.
As far as the Dems pandering to the religious nuts: Folks it is the oldest trick in warfare – divide and concur. If the Dems are successful in splitting the religious vote and thereby rendering them irrelevant then fantastic.
Elizabeth Dole Attacks Senate Opponent for Meeting with Atheists
North Carolina Senator Elizabeth Dole and her communications staff put out a press release today criticizing her Democratic challenger Kay Hagan.
What did Hagan do to deserve the criticism?
She plans to attend a fundraiser hosted by atheists.
On September 15th, Kay Hagan is heading to Boston, Massachusetts to attend a fundraiser for her Senate campaign. What may surprise mainstream North Carolinians is that the fundraiser will be in the home of leading anti religion activists Wendy Kaminer and her lawyer husband Woody Kaplan ? who is an advisor to the ?Godless Americans Political Action Committee.?
?
The press release in part says:
?Kay Hagan does not represent the values of this state; she is a Trojan Horse for a long list of wacky left-wing outside groups bent on policies that would horrify most North Carolinians if they knew about it,? [Communications Director Dan] McLagan said. ?This latest revelation of support from anti-religion activists will not sit well with the 90% of state residents who identify with a specific religious faith.?
As a result of this press release, people who never heard of Kay Hagan and who don’t even live in NC are sending donations to her campaign. Read the comments in the link below at Hemant’s blog for some very well-written responses to Liddy Dole.
Your problem conversing here is that you can’t seem to follow the guidelines you set for others. But even more importantly you have no authority to set any guidelines.
Uh, yeah, when I am talking about what is needed to sway my opinion about something I really do get to set the rules you presumptuous douche.
You have repeatedly stated here that Obama advocates for socialized medicine. This is grossly incorrect and I have pointed that out to you numerous times. There is a big difference between socialized medicine and socialized medical insurance.
The only difference is in your own head if you actually believe that.
No matter how you slice it the goal is exactly the same. It’s to force everyone to pay into everyone else’s medical costs. I am sorry, but I don’t give a shit about a majority of people’s health problems because many of them are self inflicted. The obese, chain-smoking, beer-swilling liver-killing public is not my concern. If you want to subsidize their unhealthy lifestyle, convince your state government to create the program and tax its citizens. If I am unlucky enough to share the same state with you after your success at this, I’ll move.
Creating a system of “insurance” where nobody is turned down, nobody can opt out of, everyone pays for, and all medical expenses are paid is identical to socalized medicine in every respect. Don’t piss on my leg and tell me it’s raining.
atomictesticles,
I have yet to hear any coherent arguments to support your objection, either to socialized practice of medicine, or socialized medical insurance. Canada has it, and so does Britain, and even the medical community has rated their medical care equal to ours. Yes, they pay for it in taxes, but what do you want to do, pay four hundred bucks a month per person in your household to a greedy ass insurance company you have to take to court to make them pay up, or to the government with no argument. But wait, maybe it takes Canadian doctors a little longer to pay off that third Lambourghini. And maybe there is no motivation anymore for hospitals to hold medicare patients in order to keep their beds full.
The system is broken dude, and you are freaking out about the POSSIBILITY that someone wants to fix it. Don’t you understand that there are thousands of people here in our country dying because they can’t afford the heath care that they need. Those people are beloved fathers and mothers and children. This is real tragedy happening every day so rich people can get richer.
My father was fifty two when he died of colon cancer. He never smoked a cigarette in his life, barely drank at all. He had medical insurance, and what they didn’t pay forced my mother to sell the house where I grew up, sell my grandparents trailerhouse (my grandmother had to move in with my uncle)and go live with her brother.
So much for your self induced tragedy theory. I think you might be right about your connection with phreedumb. You’re like two penises in a pod. Fred Phelps is to Christianity as you idiots are to free thought.
Atomic and I have been at it before over the medical insurance issue. He simply does not understand the basics and refuses to learn. He is a very ideological chap. He insists he doesn’t want to pay for others medical care but doesn’t understand that he already is and always will be. The only question that remains is how to do it efficiently and robustly – two specifications which are almost always at odds.
Lots of memorable and insightful lines from Obama’s speech. Here’s a few of my favorites.
But the record’s clear: John McCain has voted with George Bush 90 percent of the time. Sen. McCain likes to talk about judgment, but really, what does it say about your judgment when you think George Bush has been right more than 90 percent of the time? I don’t know about you, but I’m not ready to take a 10 percent chance on change.
and
Individual responsibility and mutual responsibility — that’s the essence of America’s promise.
and
You know, John McCain likes to say that he’ll follow bin Laden to the Gates of Hell — but he won’t even go to the cave where he lives.
and
And as someone who watched my mother argue with insurance companies while she lay in bed dying of cancer, I will make certain those companies stop discriminating against those who are sick and need care the most.
and
Now, I don’t believe that Sen. McCain doesn’t care what’s going on in the lives of Americans. I just think he doesn’t know.
and
And when I hear a woman talk about the difficulties of starting her own business or making her way in the world, I think about my grandmother, who worked her way up from the secretarial pool to middle-management, despite years of being passed over for promotions because she was a woman. She’s the one who taught me about hard work. She’s the one who put off buying a new car or a new dress for herself so that I could have a better life. She poured everything she had into me. And although she can no longer travel, I know that she’s watching tonight, and that tonight is her night as well.
Now, I don’t know what kind of lives John McCain thinks that celebrities lead, but this has been mine.
I wonder how many theists will be asking if gawd is trying to tell the rethuglicans something. From The Washington Post:
Republican officials said yesterday that they are considering delaying the start of the GOP convention in Minneapolis-St. Paul because of Tropical Storm Gustav, which is on track to hit the Gulf Coast, and possibly New Orleans, as a full-force hurricane early next week.
Even though I don’t wish the insults would continue I appreciate the discussion on insurance/healthcare. Can anyone else confirm medicare only spends half of what privatized healthcare does in admin costs? I read that the other day. Please don’t insult me
TX,
You are probably right, I am quick on the trigger, and don’t mind trading paint with mental midgets. That’s not always a constructive choice.
Reason,
Major change happens in a lot of different ways. If you were Polish or French, major change came when Nazi Germany invaded your country. That’s not a good thing.
Major change also comes when tsunamis stike like it did in Thailand and Malaysia. That’s not good either.
But, major change also happens when a dynamic leader comes along who rallies the hearts and minds of his people to work as a team to reach a goal. This may be a poor example, and I will probably get trashed for this, but, Jesus was a visionary that changed the perception his people had of god from “Jehovah of Armies” to a father figure of love and forgiveness. He was promptly rewarded by the ruling religious class with death by slow torture, but he changed the face of the planet forever, or at least until man is extinct.
My point is, that while ample reason exists to be synical about future possibilities, we have two choices, to have hopes and dreams and fight to make them come true, or quit.
They lied. What the Govt. does in that case is shift much of the administrative overhead to the hospitals. They do this to bolster their own numbers in a way that is harder to prove.
This has been discussed ad nauseum. Take a look at this thread:
neowolfe,
I understand that several posters on the blog recently ripped you a new one. Contributing to the hostile attitude by picking on the nerdy guy with the glasses in order to make a few friends is a bit low. Are we in High School, or are (some of us) educated adults? My beef is with What. He is right that we have all been over this before.
The pompous “I’m a doctor so I know better than you and you just need to learn the basics” attitude is exactly the same as the “I’m a Christian so I know better than you and you just need to see the light!” attitude. I have educated myself quite well on this topic. Also, What makes it painfully obvious that being an M.D. clearly confers no special understanding of medical insurance (or anything else).
What,
The statement…
He insists he doesn’t want to pay for others medical care but doesn’t understand that he already is and always will be.
…makes it rather clear that you have no intention of trying to actually support your position that there is functional difference between out-and-out socialized medicine and socialized medical insurance. This statement appears to be conceding the point. Good on you. Doesn’t it feel better to just come out with it that your position is based on your personal feelings and not on evidence?
It was a sneaky duck indeed, but I flushed the little fellow out into the open. Now, let’s see if you can concede this point too: Since the government has mandated automobile insurance in almost every state the costs have continually gone up. The government created a situation where they have handed the insurance companies our balls and the government is entirely to blame.
I’d like you to do a little homework and find evidence that the government runs programs better and cheaper than the businesses they replace. I’d also like to see a little bit of evidence that the government can do no wrong and that they are less open to corruption than said buisnesses.
You seem to have gotten this notion that there is a magical conferrence of divine purity to the actions of our federal government as long as Democrats are in charge. I suppose when fiscal conservatives (yes, they are hard to find in this day and age) are in charge they’re under the influence of Satan.
There are corollaries to be found between dogmatic political ideology and dogmatic religious ideology. In this country I am the heretic, on both accounts, and a lot of libertarians are atheists. Try and figure out why that is and get back to me.
Medicare spends around 2% of its funds on admin whereas private insurers spend around 15%. This along with the fact that there is universal agreement that anybody should have access to emergent medical are the two most important pieces of the puzzle.
I will address your propaganda this evening. For now you could take a look at the widely respected report on medical costs in the US called the McKinsey report.
“We often hear that Medicare and Medicaid are efficient. The government says Medicaid only spends about 2 percent of its budget on administration. But that ignores all the costs that are shifted to doctors and hospitals. When you incorporate
all those costs, it turns out that actually Medicare is not very efficient at all.”
Was all said and quoted before. I still have not seen a single refutation.
I will address your propaganda this evening.
Way to disrespect points with a dismissive attitude. I used to be more civil. Anyone would get a little bit pissed when others shovel shit on them all day.
Doesn’t anybody here work!?
You got me. I actually support government social programs because I live off them. Thanks for paying all my bills so that I can complain about the state of society paying all my bills.
Idon’t know how to make a link here but type that in and you’ll see just how welcome we are in the “big tent”
“(Bob) Tierman says he just couldn’t stand it anymore. “I stood up (at the intrefaith gathering) and said “I am a Democrat but I’m not a person of faith.” I said ” This looks like a church service to me and I never thought I’d see to Democrats do this type of thing.” At this point, the police came and escorted Tierman from the Hall.”…
Don’t even tell them that you don’t believe or else they’ll have the cops throw you out.
Great find. I, too, would love an answer to your question.
One thing I could not help but notice was the title of the article: “Atheists: The Last Political Outcasts”
This makes me sad, in a way, because we truly are political outcasts. The thing that I do look up a bit more about is the idea that we are “the last.” This is an indicator that if we keep up the fight, we’ll eventually be accorded a place at the table. That is an encouraging thought!
Your beef is with reality. It just pisses you off that the world doesn’t conform to your libertarian ideology. Sorry about that. Reality bites!
Also, What makes it painfully obvious that being an M.D. clearly confers no special understanding of medical insurance (or anything else).
Your envy isn’t even thinly veiled.
..makes it rather clear that you have no intention of trying to actually support your position that there is functional difference between out-and-out socialized medicine and socialized medical insurance.
Did you mean to say “is no functional difference”. I will assume that’s what you mean otherwise your former rants make even less sense.
Socialized medicine refers to systems in which the government runs the hospitals and where doctors and staff are government employees.
Socialized medical insurance refers to a system where the hospitals are privately run and the doctors are either self employed or are employees of the hospital.
If you do not see the vast difference in these two systems I can only say that I am astonished.
This statement appears to be conceding the point.
Huh? What is wrong with you?
And then you post this gem:
“We often hear that Medicare and Medicaid are efficient. The government says Medicaid only spends about 2 percent of its budget on administration. But that ignores all the costs that are shifted to doctors and hospitals. When you incorporate
all those costs, it turns out that actually Medicare is not very efficient at all.”
From none other than the Cato Institute – A Libertarian “think tank”. Sorry, but you will have to do better than getting your economic “facts” from partisan political hacks.
Trying doing a little reading outside the world of political hackery. Read the McKinsey Report and then get back to me. If you would like the highlights of that report I will be happy to provide them.
Socialized medicine refers to systems in which the government runs the hospitals and where doctors and staff are government employees.
Socialized medical insurance refers to a system where the hospitals are privately run and the doctors are either self employed or are employees of the hospital.
The sneaky duck is back. Either concept is functionally equivalent because:
A) The government sets all the rules for how much is paid for treatments.
B) The revenue that hospitals receive will be nearly all coming from tax dollars since a vast majority of Americans will not be able to afford their own insurance AND the taxes that it will cost to run this program.
C) Obama is not even bright enough to recognize that his plan would not even work unless it is compulsory (something that was part of Clinton’s plan) or he is a liar and would make it compulsory after he is elected.
D) There is no compelling evidence that our government will run this system any better than it is currently run and maintain the same quality of service and care. Looking at the problems with other socialized health care services in other countries and the continuing ineptitude of our own government I am inclined to believe what we will get will be worse.
The fact is that no matter which paradigm is used (socialized “insurance” or taking over the whole damned thing) every tax payer will end up footing the bill. The effect is the same, the government sets all the costs (removing the freedom from the market) and the taxpayers pay for it.
Here is a huge question that you should ask yoursef. You are only thinking about this from the perspective of Democrats being in power. How much good will a program like this do when the Republicans are? Do you think it will be magically exempt from being used in political power plays? Do you think that will really be the best thing for the country?
Half of Americans do not want this system. If you persist and shove it down unwilling throats you will be witness to the ages-old proverb: If you play with fire you’ll be burned.
From none other than the Cato Institute – A Libertarian “think tank”. Sorry, but you will have to do better than getting your economic “facts” from partisan political hacks.
Ad hominem attack. You don’t like the message so you attack the people saying it. Disprove them with some evidence, if you are able.
Man you really don’t understand what an adhominem attack is do you? Do you want me and others to start posting links to obvious political hackery in support of socializaed insurance and ask that you debunk all of it.
Lets cut past your nonsensical obfuscation of the issue and ask you a simple question. What do we do with the medically uninsured that arrive on the doorsteps of the ER?
Here is a huge question that you should ask yoursef. You are only thinking about this from the perspective of Democrats being in power.
No I’m not. Have fun setting up the straw men.
How much good will a program like this do when the Republicans are? Do you think it will be magically exempt from being used in political power plays?
Are you retarded? Really man how old are you? Ever here of a little something called MEDICARE. Poiticians can use it as a football all they want but it remains – despite even the BushCo years – intact. And hey thanks for giving everyone another reason for not voting rethuglican! Too funny.
Do you think that will really be the best thing for the country?
Your right a guess I just wasn’t thinking. Now that you put it that way. God Bless America. I’m on board.
Half of Americans do not want this system. If you persist and shove it down unwilling throats you will be witness to the ages-old proverb: If you play with fire you’ll be burned.
The rest of the world wants it but you would like us to believe that the US doesn’t.
I am astonished by your lack of understanding of the difference between socialized medicine and socialized medical insurance. You apparently see no difference between the government controlling one industry as opposed to two. Should I do the math for you 2-1=? Chew that one over for a while.
Lets cut past your nonsensical obfuscation of the issue and ask you a simple question. What do we do with the medically uninsured that arrive on the doorsteps of the ER?
Awful example because you already won that battle. The answer is simple: They get treatment. No hospital can refuse to treat a patient regardless of ability to pay. I am starting to doubt that you are even a doctor. Are you a chiropractor?
I am astonished by your lack of understanding of the difference between socialized medicine and socialized medical insurance. You apparently see no difference between the government controlling one industry as opposed to two. Should I do the math for you 2-1=? Chew that one over for a while.
I am astonished at your incapacity to understand that both ideas cost the taxpayers the same and essentially put the government in control of the whole show. I starting to think that this really doesn’t escape you, but that you’re being intellectually dishonest.
Oh and Einstein – Medicare is extremely popular.
Argumentum ad populum.
You are just brimming with fallacious arguments lately. Perhaps I’ll start referring to you as WhatPhreedm. Both of you really are shaping up to be opposite sides of the same coin. Neither of you can compose an argument that stands on its own merit. Both of you turn to ad hominems and all kinds of other logical fallacies when you aren’t hearing the words you would like to. Neither of you support your claims, but are equally confident that you are correct.
Awful example because you already won that battle. The answer is simple: They get treatment. No hospital can refuse to treat a patient regardless of ability to pay.
So your blathering about forcing “everyone to pay into everyone else’s medical costs” is mute then isn’t it. The only remaining question, for most of us, is how best to deal with the high costs of taking care of those that have no insurance because the cost gets passed on to all of us. So how do we do that? Let’s see if you have done your homework or you just come back at me with more CAto Institute talking points.
Oh and BTW if you are going to bring up logic fallacies then you should learn what the really are. Pointing at that Cato is a biased source isn’t an ad hominem fallacy. Here’s the syllogism for the slow witted:
The Cato Institute is a biased source.
One should not trust a biased source.
One should not trust The Cato Institute.
Got it?
Whats more you really should learn what these “logical fallacies” that you keep harping on actually are. They are not the axioms of classical logic which you seem to be mistaking them for.
As long as the govt. insists on stealing (yeah, that is the right word – when you “borrow” money from S.S. with no intention of paying back the money it really is stealing) from S.S., the S.S. program can be made to look as though it is failing. Put the money (even without interest) back and you’ll see that S.S. is more than solvent.
PS.
Oh, yeah. You know who else benefits from free trade. Huge corporations who pack up our jobs and take them to third world countries and open their own little “sweat shops”
NeoWolfe
I cannot seem to find a single shred of common ground with you. I said that I cannot bring myself to vote for Obama, I did not say that I am voting for McCain. If the congress were controlled by the Republicans and Obama would drop the socialized medicine bullshit I would consider it. It’s not, and he won’t.
Your profession may make you feel intellectually superior to others, but it doesn’t. You cannot even read a simple statement without making assumptions and charging about like a bull that has seen red. I stated my reasons for my opinion. If you somehow think that making a total ass of yourself by swinging at windmills is going to sway me to your point of view, you are sorely mistaken.
If you are trying to do so, do so with facts and evidence to support your claims. If you are not trying to change my mind, lay off the needling already because it is seriously pissing me off.
P.S. It might help your cause to avoid being inflammatory and cease using childish neologistic terms such as “rethuglican.” It might have been cute the very first time you used it. Now it merely remains as a constant reminder to the rest of us of the level of your intellect.
Comment from: geoih
Right on target…something I’ve been saying for years…
Why hasn’t AA or the ACLU condemned the opening church service which has used public funds?
Simple…they only use the “myth” for their own advancement…it has nothing to do with “Truth”…
atomic
Hope you have plenty of kleenex – All those tears might short out your keyboard.
It appears the weak minded on this board who support censorship are merely following Obama’s tactics…
A great window on how he’d governn…
http://www.swamppolitics.com/news/politics/blog/2008/08/obama_campaign_confronts_wgn_r.html
Comment from: neowolfe
How little you understand…
How many jobs were imported to America?
Now, taxation and regulations wouldn’t have a thing to do with the cost of doing business in America…now would they…
I knew there was a reason that I rarely post here anymore. While I enjoy conversing with many of you, I receive this kind of treatment whenever I share opinions that some of you do not like.
Loathe as I am to admit it, I’m starting to think Phreedm is right. Maybe you are just shills for the Democratic party.
FYI, Independent.
I’m not so much pro Obama as I’m anti GOP. I personally believe any vote for anything other than dems is a vote for the GOP and I won’t go there! Was independent till I went dem so I could vote for Gatewood Galbreth (sp). I worry that if the GOP can make Max Cleland seem not patriotic enough, what’ll they do to Obama?
What,
I give up. You either don’t read what I type or fail to comprehend it.
Atomic
Atomic
Your problem conversing here is that you can’t seem to follow the guidelines you set for others. But even more importantly you have no authority to set any guidelines.
Now that is a perfect example. You demand that others support their claims with facts yet you absolutely refuse to do so yourself. Here’s a prime example of that:
You have repeatedly stated here that Obama advocates for socialized medicine. This is grossly incorrect and I have pointed that out to you numerous times. There is a big difference between socialized medicine and socialized medical insurance. Either you do not understand the basic facts in this regard or you are intentionally trying to mislead. Is there a third possibility? You tell me.
As far as insulting my intelligence goes. I get a kick out of it.
foot152
I here ya. I was an independent until BushCo was elected.
phreedumb,
Enlighten me on how many jobs have come to America due to free trade.
Taxation and regulation have everything to do with the cost of doing business in America. That was exactly my point. I guess the students on the short bus need a little more time get the message.
NeoWolfe
As far as the Dems pandering to the religious nuts: Folks it is the oldest trick in warfare – divide and concur. If the Dems are successful in splitting the religious vote and thereby rendering them irrelevant then fantastic.
Obama just voted to give $300 billion to big agribusiness for marketing, tax breaks for race horse owners, and the ethanol scam among others.
I don’t see how much more of a whore he could be towards corporations & the rich than anyone else?
Time to pull the wool back folks.
Tangentially related to the thread:
Elizabeth Dole Attacks Senate Opponent for Meeting with Atheists
As a result of this press release, people who never heard of Kay Hagan and who don’t even live in NC are sending donations to her campaign. Read the comments in the link below at Hemant’s blog for some very well-written responses to Liddy Dole.
http://friendlyatheist.com/4229/elizabeth-dole-attacks-senate-opponent-for-meeting-with-atheists/
Uh, yeah, when I am talking about what is needed to sway my opinion about something I really do get to set the rules you presumptuous douche.
The only difference is in your own head if you actually believe that.
No matter how you slice it the goal is exactly the same. It’s to force everyone to pay into everyone else’s medical costs. I am sorry, but I don’t give a shit about a majority of people’s health problems because many of them are self inflicted. The obese, chain-smoking, beer-swilling liver-killing public is not my concern. If you want to subsidize their unhealthy lifestyle, convince your state government to create the program and tax its citizens. If I am unlucky enough to share the same state with you after your success at this, I’ll move.
Creating a system of “insurance” where nobody is turned down, nobody can opt out of, everyone pays for, and all medical expenses are paid is identical to socalized medicine in every respect. Don’t piss on my leg and tell me it’s raining.
Karen…
That article is mirroring the Obama’s campaign tactics…
What’s wrong with pointing out who our politicians associate with?
You can’t deny that those who are throwing the fund raiser are on the fringe…
Comment from: mxracer652
MXR…careful. What-do I know will resort to childish antics and insults…
atomictesticles,
I have yet to hear any coherent arguments to support your objection, either to socialized practice of medicine, or socialized medical insurance. Canada has it, and so does Britain, and even the medical community has rated their medical care equal to ours. Yes, they pay for it in taxes, but what do you want to do, pay four hundred bucks a month per person in your household to a greedy ass insurance company you have to take to court to make them pay up, or to the government with no argument. But wait, maybe it takes Canadian doctors a little longer to pay off that third Lambourghini. And maybe there is no motivation anymore for hospitals to hold medicare patients in order to keep their beds full.
The system is broken dude, and you are freaking out about the POSSIBILITY that someone wants to fix it. Don’t you understand that there are thousands of people here in our country dying because they can’t afford the heath care that they need. Those people are beloved fathers and mothers and children. This is real tragedy happening every day so rich people can get richer.
My father was fifty two when he died of colon cancer. He never smoked a cigarette in his life, barely drank at all. He had medical insurance, and what they didn’t pay forced my mother to sell the house where I grew up, sell my grandparents trailerhouse (my grandmother had to move in with my uncle)and go live with her brother.
So much for your self induced tragedy theory. I think you might be right about your connection with phreedumb. You’re like two penises in a pod. Fred Phelps is to Christianity as you idiots are to free thought.
NeoWolfe
NeoWolfe
hello..this is williams.as far i know obama politics are very cruel.
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NeoWolfe
Atomic and I have been at it before over the medical insurance issue. He simply does not understand the basics and refuses to learn. He is a very ideological chap. He insists he doesn’t want to pay for others medical care but doesn’t understand that he already is and always will be. The only question that remains is how to do it efficiently and robustly – two specifications which are almost always at odds.
Notice…Obama isn’t saying anything…
Lot’s of fluff…and no substance…
The DNC “closing benediction” is just another thing I can tack onto my list of why I’m not voting.
Spinfusor
Splitting the evangelical vote makes them politically irrelevant = good thing!
Closing benediction = divide and conquer.
Lots of memorable and insightful lines from Obama’s speech. Here’s a few of my favorites.
and
and
and
and
and
I wonder how many theists will be asking if gawd is trying to tell the rethuglicans something. From The Washington Post:
Gov. Palin for VP?
Just watch the feminists attack her…
And “feminists” come in all genders…
Don’t they “What…do I know”?
Atomic, What, mxracer, neowolfe, others…
Even though I don’t wish the insults would continue I appreciate the discussion on insurance/healthcare. Can anyone else confirm medicare only spends half of what privatized healthcare does in admin costs? I read that the other day. Please don’t insult me
both parties are funded by the same sources so how does one think there is going to be any major change.
TX,
You are probably right, I am quick on the trigger, and don’t mind trading paint with mental midgets. That’s not always a constructive choice.
Reason,
Major change happens in a lot of different ways. If you were Polish or French, major change came when Nazi Germany invaded your country. That’s not a good thing.
Major change also comes when tsunamis stike like it did in Thailand and Malaysia. That’s not good either.
But, major change also happens when a dynamic leader comes along who rallies the hearts and minds of his people to work as a team to reach a goal. This may be a poor example, and I will probably get trashed for this, but, Jesus was a visionary that changed the perception his people had of god from “Jehovah of Armies” to a father figure of love and forgiveness. He was promptly rewarded by the ruling religious class with death by slow torture, but he changed the face of the planet forever, or at least until man is extinct.
My point is, that while ample reason exists to be synical about future possibilities, we have two choices, to have hopes and dreams and fight to make them come true, or quit.
NeoWolfe
TXatheist,
They lied. What the Govt. does in that case is shift much of the administrative overhead to the hospitals. They do this to bolster their own numbers in a way that is harder to prove.
This has been discussed ad nauseum. Take a look at this thread:
http://www.atheists.org/nogodblog/index.php/2007/10/05/unchristian
neowolfe,
I understand that several posters on the blog recently ripped you a new one. Contributing to the hostile attitude by picking on the nerdy guy with the glasses in order to make a few friends is a bit low. Are we in High School, or are (some of us) educated adults? My beef is with What. He is right that we have all been over this before.
The pompous “I’m a doctor so I know better than you and you just need to learn the basics” attitude is exactly the same as the “I’m a Christian so I know better than you and you just need to see the light!” attitude. I have educated myself quite well on this topic. Also, What makes it painfully obvious that being an M.D. clearly confers no special understanding of medical insurance (or anything else).
What,
The statement…
…makes it rather clear that you have no intention of trying to actually support your position that there is functional difference between out-and-out socialized medicine and socialized medical insurance. This statement appears to be conceding the point. Good on you. Doesn’t it feel better to just come out with it that your position is based on your personal feelings and not on evidence?
It was a sneaky duck indeed, but I flushed the little fellow out into the open. Now, let’s see if you can concede this point too: Since the government has mandated automobile insurance in almost every state the costs have continually gone up. The government created a situation where they have handed the insurance companies our balls and the government is entirely to blame.
I’d like you to do a little homework and find evidence that the government runs programs better and cheaper than the businesses they replace. I’d also like to see a little bit of evidence that the government can do no wrong and that they are less open to corruption than said buisnesses.
You seem to have gotten this notion that there is a magical conferrence of divine purity to the actions of our federal government as long as Democrats are in charge. I suppose when fiscal conservatives (yes, they are hard to find in this day and age) are in charge they’re under the influence of Satan.
There are corollaries to be found between dogmatic political ideology and dogmatic religious ideology. In this country I am the heretic, on both accounts, and a lot of libertarians are atheists. Try and figure out why that is and get back to me.
TX
Medicare spends around 2% of its funds on admin whereas private insurers spend around 15%. This along with the fact that there is universal agreement that anybody should have access to emergent medical are the two most important pieces of the puzzle.
Atomic
I will address your propaganda this evening. For now you could take a look at the widely respected report on medical costs in the US called the McKinsey report.
Doesn’t anybody here work!?
http://tinyurl.com/ara5g
“We often hear that Medicare and Medicaid are efficient. The government says Medicaid only spends about 2 percent of its budget on administration. But that ignores all the costs that are shifted to doctors and hospitals. When you incorporate
all those costs, it turns out that actually Medicare is not very efficient at all.”
Was all said and quoted before. I still have not seen a single refutation.
Way to disrespect points with a dismissive attitude. I used to be more civil. Anyone would get a little bit pissed when others shovel shit on them all day.
You got me. I actually support government social programs because I live off them. Thanks for paying all my bills so that I can complain about the state of society paying all my bills.
It would be nice to see points debated without personal insults slung at those who disagree.
Is it Ok to post something about the convemtion? Or will that interrupt your conversation??
http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com/onfaith/sally_quinn/2008/08/atheists_the_last_political_ou.html
Idon’t know how to make a link here but type that in and you’ll see just how welcome we are in the “big tent”
“(Bob) Tierman says he just couldn’t stand it anymore. “I stood up (at the intrefaith gathering) and said “I am a Democrat but I’m not a person of faith.” I said ” This looks like a church service to me and I never thought I’d see to Democrats do this type of thing.” At this point, the police came and escorted Tierman from the Hall.”…
Don’t even tell them that you don’t believe or else they’ll have the cops throw you out.
So this is why I’m supposed to vote for Obama??
Teammarty,
Great find. I, too, would love an answer to your question.
One thing I could not help but notice was the title of the article: “Atheists: The Last Political Outcasts”
This makes me sad, in a way, because we truly are political outcasts. The thing that I do look up a bit more about is the idea that we are “the last.” This is an indicator that if we keep up the fight, we’ll eventually be accorded a place at the table. That is an encouraging thought!
AtomicTestes
Your beef is with reality. It just pisses you off that the world doesn’t conform to your libertarian ideology. Sorry about that. Reality bites!
Your envy isn’t even thinly veiled.
Did you mean to say “is no functional difference”. I will assume that’s what you mean otherwise your former rants make even less sense.
Socialized medicine refers to systems in which the government runs the hospitals and where doctors and staff are government employees.
Socialized medical insurance refers to a system where the hospitals are privately run and the doctors are either self employed or are employees of the hospital.
If you do not see the vast difference in these two systems I can only say that I am astonished.
Huh? What is wrong with you?
And then you post this gem:
From none other than the Cato Institute – A Libertarian “think tank”. Sorry, but you will have to do better than getting your economic “facts” from partisan political hacks.
Trying doing a little reading outside the world of political hackery. Read the McKinsey Report and then get back to me. If you would like the highlights of that report I will be happy to provide them.
The sneaky duck is back. Either concept is functionally equivalent because:
A) The government sets all the rules for how much is paid for treatments.
B) The revenue that hospitals receive will be nearly all coming from tax dollars since a vast majority of Americans will not be able to afford their own insurance AND the taxes that it will cost to run this program.
C) Obama is not even bright enough to recognize that his plan would not even work unless it is compulsory (something that was part of Clinton’s plan) or he is a liar and would make it compulsory after he is elected.
D) There is no compelling evidence that our government will run this system any better than it is currently run and maintain the same quality of service and care. Looking at the problems with other socialized health care services in other countries and the continuing ineptitude of our own government I am inclined to believe what we will get will be worse.
The fact is that no matter which paradigm is used (socialized “insurance” or taking over the whole damned thing) every tax payer will end up footing the bill. The effect is the same, the government sets all the costs (removing the freedom from the market) and the taxpayers pay for it.
Here is a huge question that you should ask yoursef. You are only thinking about this from the perspective of Democrats being in power. How much good will a program like this do when the Republicans are? Do you think it will be magically exempt from being used in political power plays? Do you think that will really be the best thing for the country?
Half of Americans do not want this system. If you persist and shove it down unwilling throats you will be witness to the ages-old proverb: If you play with fire you’ll be burned.
Ad hominem attack. You don’t like the message so you attack the people saying it. Disprove them with some evidence, if you are able.
Atomic
Man you really don’t understand what an adhominem attack is do you? Do you want me and others to start posting links to obvious political hackery in support of socializaed insurance and ask that you debunk all of it.
Lets cut past your nonsensical obfuscation of the issue and ask you a simple question. What do we do with the medically uninsured that arrive on the doorsteps of the ER?
Atomic
No I’m not. Have fun setting up the straw men.
Are you retarded? Really man how old are you? Ever here of a little something called MEDICARE. Poiticians can use it as a football all they want but it remains – despite even the BushCo years – intact. And hey thanks for giving everyone another reason for not voting rethuglican! Too funny.
Your right a guess I just wasn’t thinking. Now that you put it that way. God Bless America. I’m on board.
The rest of the world wants it but you would like us to believe that the US doesn’t.
I am astonished by your lack of understanding of the difference between socialized medicine and socialized medical insurance. You apparently see no difference between the government controlling one industry as opposed to two. Should I do the math for you 2-1=? Chew that one over for a while.
Oh and Einstein – Medicare is extremely popular.
Wwat a dolt!
Awful example because you already won that battle. The answer is simple: They get treatment. No hospital can refuse to treat a patient regardless of ability to pay. I am starting to doubt that you are even a doctor. Are you a chiropractor?
I am astonished at your incapacity to understand that both ideas cost the taxpayers the same and essentially put the government in control of the whole show. I starting to think that this really doesn’t escape you, but that you’re being intellectually dishonest.
Argumentum ad populum.
You are just brimming with fallacious arguments lately. Perhaps I’ll start referring to you as WhatPhreedm. Both of you really are shaping up to be opposite sides of the same coin. Neither of you can compose an argument that stands on its own merit. Both of you turn to ad hominems and all kinds of other logical fallacies when you aren’t hearing the words you would like to. Neither of you support your claims, but are equally confident that you are correct.
Atomic
So your blathering about forcing “everyone to pay into everyone else’s medical costs” is mute then isn’t it. The only remaining question, for most of us, is how best to deal with the high costs of taking care of those that have no insurance because the cost gets passed on to all of us. So how do we do that? Let’s see if you have done your homework or you just come back at me with more CAto Institute talking points.
Oh and BTW if you are going to bring up logic fallacies then you should learn what the really are. Pointing at that Cato is a biased source isn’t an ad hominem fallacy. Here’s the syllogism for the slow witted:
The Cato Institute is a biased source.
One should not trust a biased source.
One should not trust The Cato Institute.
Got it?
Whats more you really should learn what these “logical fallacies” that you keep harping on actually are. They are not the axioms of classical logic which you seem to be mistaking them for.
Atomic
I’ll be out of town until Tuesday so you have got plenty of time to think. I suggest you use it. For your own good.
Pointing at that Cato is a biased source -> Pointing out that Cato is a biased source