BALTIMORE ? After denying Javon Thompson food and water for two days because he wouldn’t say “amen” after meals, the 1-year-old’s caretakers waited for a divine sign that their message had been heard: a resurrection.For more than a week, police say in charging documents describing the scene, the child’s lifeless body lay in the backroom of an apartment. Queen Antoinette, the 40-year-old leader of a group that called itself 1 Mind Ministries, brought in her followers and told them to pray. God, she said, would raise Javon from the dead.Instead, Javon’s body began to decompose.The boy’s mother, Ria Ramkissoon, 21, and four other people, including Trevia Williams, 21, who authorities say are members of the group face first-degree murder charges. But Ramkissoon’s mother and attorney say that she was brainwashed by a cult and acted only at the group leader’s will.Court documents describe a group that operated secretly, dressed all in white and eschewed medical care. Antoinette, also known as Toni Sloan or Toni Ellsberry, called her followers “princes” and “princesses.” And she and her followers were possessive of the children under their care.Children have been killed in similar groups for failing to follow cult teachings, said Rick A. Ross, who has studied cults for 26 years. That appears to have been the case with Javon, who was viewed as a “demon,” according to police statements.
Dawkins wasn’t the first one to point this out, but he did poignantly express that the problem with moderate religions is that it makes way for extremists. This poor child died, because the mother was conditioned by society to obey religious figures, and she picked the wrong one to obey.Of course, the mother had to be mentally unstable in the first place, but there are a LOT of mentally unstable people out there who are trained by religions to follow orders without question. This leads to some believing their children are demons.I hate death. But more than that, I hate needless death. More than that, I hate needless death of innocent children. And this, my dear friends, is why I support the Death Penalty. Fry some cult leaders, and this will stop happening, IMO.
JCC
Well as I have said before, I don’t practice presently. I make my living in physics instead. But hey, you could try to scare off my colleagues by outing me as an atheist. Too funny.
Your envy is appreciated. Isn’t it one of the seven deadly sins?
Alatham
Thanks for relieving me/us of the duty to respond to JCC’s assumption filled and unfactual post above.
Jonathon
The problem is that JCC while either rejects premise 1 outright or he will dicker for ever about what “evidence” is.
The way out of the retarded way JCC argues is to demand the definitions of words out right so that you can both agree upon them and hold each to those agreements. Otherwise he will, as with most theists, for ever modify definitions to simply keep the argument going. He sees that as a win.
These threads are like games of “Gossip”. We started out talking about something and end up debating something almost entirely disconnected.
Bottom line, LOVE IS A LIE!!!! It’s a thing your hormones tells your brain that makes you act on irrational decisions. That girl or that guy is my soulmate, NOT!! That girl or guy is the result of an equation reached in their own egos that decides he or she is at the top of most genetically feasable mutually attracted couples. After he gets his nut, and she realizes that all that romance was to get in her pants, they divorce, and our modern family structure spawns yet another generation.
We love our infants and gives us tingles when we call their names and they turn to look at us and giggle with joy. We are proud of our children when they do well in school, and we are worried when they don’t. We are horrified when they are injured, and desimated when they die.
But, these are all just mechanics that nature has thrust upon us, like every other species, alive or exinct, to survive as a species.
Advice to men, if “romance” is really important to your girlfriend, tell her snatchworship is against your religion.
NeoWolfe
So, JCC’s using the placebo effect to prove his gawd’s existence?
I’m breathtakingly dumbfounded. I’m unclear as to whether that’s a direct metaphor, a dead metaphor, a paradox, or pure irony. I’m truly tasered by this.
Like many of your ilk, you place far too much stock in a folk tale. Placebos are used in double blind studies.
A little aside on placebos:
AND:
Really, JCC, do bring some factual reality along w/your visits.
I’m assuming your dad was given a placebo recently, & it seems to have ‘helped’ him?
What,
Unfortunately I won’t be able to stick around, I’m going whitewater rafting this weekend. But I did have to say something once my name got dropped. So, you’re welcome.
I second that. It’s good advice.
What…I knew you were a coward…
Phreeky thinks calling me a coward will get me to respond to his last post. Is it possible after oh so many many months that he still doesn’t understand that the only interaction between he and I will be one that involves ridicule? Yes it’s possible. He is that … challenged … .
KA
Do you think JCC is “for real”? When I see such stereotypical ignorance displayed over and over again I have to wonder.
I think we have to address the placenta effect and ignorant design theory here. The anti abortion mind set in America is a relatively recent phenomenon created by Christians to make it appear as though they have a cause other than perpetuating fragile sanity.
Google Mike Earl for straightforward logic on this. There are more stillbirths than there are abortions so GOD is the biggest abortion artist in the universe. We also can’t forget GOD killed an awful lot of babies and pregnant women in the great flood story and Soddom and Gomorrah and he sure bashed an awful lot of beautiful babies heads on the rocks back when the Israelites were occupying Palestine. The Israelites had to slice a whole bunch of lovely babies throats because they were lesser people. After all, the Israelites are the Chosen ones. Right phreedm?
Oh come on! “Snatchworship” literally defines the hetero human male! Didn’t you ever read Easyriders?
What’s wrong with blockquotes today? Is it me? Duh!
cry4turtles – fixed your blockquotes.
What – I’ve been debating JCC for years now. He pretty much epitomizes the intellectual religious mindset, & proves that just because someone’s smart, doesn’t mean they’re not stupid.
Like most relusionists, he cherry picks the little ‘unexplained’ oddities (like placebos, hemispherectomies, etc.) & thinks he’s built a wall outta a single brick. & then argues it’s a whole wall, despite evidence to the contrary.
Considering how many things that Phreedm “knows” are demonstrably wrong, I’d say this is another comment that falls as flat as the slope on Phreedm’s forehead.
… and a slippery slope it is!
Mark Farris,
I don’t know you well, having only read one of your responses, to my memory. But you and me are very much alike. We are the “knights templar” of free thinker movement in the christian nations, because we understand the bible, and it uncountable holes of logic.
The history of “Jehovah of Armies” in the old testiment makes Hitler look like a wannabe.
But after China capped it’s population by allowing couples to only reproduce themselves, still Western civilization refuses to confront the issue of overpopulation as a moral third rail. Not enough food or clean water to support our present population, and no plan to prevent the inevitable from becoming worse. This while Mormons and Catholics discourage birth control, forbid abortion, but encourage large families brought up in the strict brainwash of the church.
I may be wrong, but, most of time I find myself wondering most of these members understand the issues at stake in our own country, and if they even have a clue about the global questions.
NeoWolfe
NeoWolfe
What does that even mean?
karen:
No, but to the best of my recollection, I?ve yet to run across a pro-life atheist here.
Because it?s inconsistent with how you?ve rationalized abortion in the first place. It reminds me of the lunacy I once saw on the back of a car in Seattle. The bumper sticker on the left side read, ?I VOTE PRO-CHOICE,? and the one on the right side read, ?CUT OUT SCHOOL DISECTION?? an exquisite example of the cognitive dissonance liberal relativism produces in the minds of the unthinking.
Well, my brother and sister in-law adopted two ?non-white? siblings from Romania; a couple in my Sunday school class adopted a mentally handicapped boy from China; a friend in Seattle adopted an Hispanic boy from Nicaragua; my wife has several good friends from college who?ve adopted little girls from China?did I mention that all those couples are Christians??Come to think of it, I only know one couple who?ve adopted a ?white? child? have you heard of what Steven Curtis Chapman and his wife are doing for orphans in China?
http://tinyurl.com/6r2ua3
I?m at a loss to understand how can you say there?s a ?LOT? of lip service from the Christian, pro-life movement. But two can play your little game; what about you and your atheist friends??What kind of holier-than-thou adoption track record does your side have?
Wow. That?s extremely presumptuous of you. What have I ever said to you to for you to assume such things about me?
Considering your previous statement, you?ve clearly hardened your heart toward me to the extent that it wouldn?t matter how I answered that?whatever I would say would obviously never be enough for you.
Really? Again, how much more would be enough for you? Are you doing more than me??how would you know? How can you assume such things about me when we?ve never even seen each other?
But did He also say ?and walk away from your responsibilities I?ve given you to your wife and children???of course not because my circumstances are outside of the context of that quote?and you know better; shame on you.
Wow, you really got your drawers in a wad this time. How sad that you?ve swallowed the whole Obama/liberal class-envy ball of wax and mindlessly puke it back up on someone you know precious little about just because you can?t help but project your warped, and erroneous perception of Christianity on him. Go ahead, keep thinking that in the end it?ll all be about what we?ve done and not what principals we held and what we put our faith in. I really pity you karen because if that?s really what you think, then that?s a standard that no one?including you will never be able to meet because others will always say, ?if only she?d done more.?
alatham:
I thought we?ve been over this before. Spiritual: of, relating to, consisting of, or affecting the spirit : incorporeal i.e. how we acknowledge and comport ourselves in the very real, yet immaterial, concepts of love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control.
By saying that, am I to assume that you regard it as something that I can?t intellectually defend?
Because it is, by definition, immaterial; incorporeal; not a physical entity that can be held, seen or quantified?yet it is objectively identifiable and universally known.
Just what I said.
That response is equally non sequitur. If the will is also a manifestation of brain function then wouldn?t it also be susceptible to those same brain dysfunctions? If the will isn?t a separate entity then how can it be immune from the affliction?much less be able to overcome it?
And what changes the state of the RAM??the RAM itself??non sequitur, nay, circular argument.
Because (apparently unlike you) I don?t live in a deterministic universe?I have the freedom to choose my thoughts. I can choose to context switch my stream of consciousness at any time I wish. I have the freedom to choose to overcome reflexive emotional responses to immaterial entities such as verbal or written insults and temper my responses to them instead. I have the freedom to choose to not indulge in destructive behaviors. I am aware of the limitations of my physical brain?I wish I could think more quickly and retain facts more clearly (if my will were a product of my brain, how could my brain be aware of its own shortcomings?). I have a desire to be better than I am. And most importantly, I am aware of when I?m being intentionally deceitful.
Why? If you believe that your consciousness is composed of the material firing of neurons, then you?ve limited your being to only that what they can produce; you?ll never be more than what you?ve experienced and your behavior will reflect it. You will be what you do. You will have condemned yourself to never being more than a product of your environment because all your thoughts were contingent on the preceding thoughts; you?re admitting to being a biological automaton, limiting your thoughts to only what your brain can react to.
What a cold, dark and calloused heart we possess when we allow materialism to rule it.
Here we go again. An argument from ignorance requires one not knowing anything that could support one?s premise. But we do know of something capable of generating information: intelligence?and that flatly contradicts your claim.
JONATHAN SMITH:
Really? So, even though I couldn?t shirk my prior responsibilities and make the trip there to physically help you, are you suggesting that I not hope for the best?and yes, ask God to keep you and all the others affected by the storm, safe?
Again, that?s rather subjective. Rejecting out of hand the possibility of design despite the similarities with things that were designed is, in my opinion, not only bad science, but deliberately self-benighting.
Obviously it wasn?t that hard for the most sagacious and thoroughly researched ?scientist? Al Gore to get a Nobel Prize? and you guys have the huevos to knock the Discovery Institute for not being staffed by ?real? scientists.
Shhhhhhhh! Don?t you know the unspoken rule to never admit to that? To assert such a thing is atheistic sacrilege around here?you can?t just trot that out like it was common knowledge and expect every atheist who?s ever staked his entire intellectual reputation on it by using it as a last resort to calmly acquiesce to it, do you?
As eloquent as that is, surly even you can see it?s fatal flaw: assertion 2.
We all have our own personal threshold of what we consider to be ?acceptable? evidence. Just because you?ve personally rejected (on the grounds that you?ve already made up your mind that souls do not exist) what evidences I?ve given does not automatically and objectively disqualify their validity?because they have yet to be disproved. You may regard my acceptance of such evidences as flimsy, but I would say they?re no more flimsy than what you prop your argument on for the materialist explanation of consciousness.
Simple answer: it can’t. The will’s not a separate entity.
I don’t think that alatham implied that.
& yours seems to be firmly entrenched in anywhere but reality.
You…really believe that, don’t you? It explains so much. So in some disturbed way, you fancy yourself a more well-rounded, more complete human being than the rest of us, due to your delusion.
What is that phrase you people use? Ah, yes: “Pride goeth before a fall.”
Time for 1 of JCC’s patented benders: of COURSE there’s such a thing as a soul! I can prove it w/o anything resembling hard evidence! Hemispherectomies, OBE’s, NDE’s, oh my! Information only gives birth to information! Proof of design! DNA looks like a code to me! More proof! Rejecting this will only make you look stupid, & me smarter! Cellular memory! You can’t claim I’m a 100% wrong! If I’m even 1% right, there’s a chance I’m right, so I’ll assume I AM!
I’d suggest you go do missionary work, but the chances of you polluting innocent minds is too great, so why don’t you stick around here, & tilt @ windmills some more.
JCC
I would venture to say that most atheists are both pro-choice and pro-life. I certainly am. What you seem to not understand – because you never mention it – is that women have rights.
What:
I am, & JCC knows it. In his book, you can’t be both. Old false dichotomy, dontcha know?
jcc
Well, 1. This is only one of hundreds of atheist sites. 2. You think of pro-life only in terms of a human fetus.
Or, the Disection sticker could have just been a joke. Reads like one to me. I have a bumper sticker on my car that says “I have a perfect body, but it’s in the trunk and beginning to smell.” Would that make you think I had a cadaver in the back of my car?
Good for them. But I have to ask, what was wrong with all the non-white and handicapped kids from THIS COUNTRY? The country in which the Christians are protesting abortion clinics, blowing them up and shooting the doctors of?
Um, from the clip you provided, adopting two of them, maybe? They said they did “work” with them, but didn’t specify anything.
What part of “there are still lots of unadopted kids here in the US” (paraphrased) don’t you get?
My only atheist “friends” are online and I don’t know that much about their personal lives as yet. The friend that adopted the two little (black) boys is a fervent Christian, the sister of my best friend who is a believer, but is leaning toward agnosticism or deism. But atheists in general aren’t out picketing abortion clinics and calling mothers who get abortions murderers. Any who are should also be ready to step up and adopt.
When I asked you what children other than your own you were loving and helping to support, you said you didn’t know-that you tithed money to your church. You didn’t say anything about any child you actually spent any time with.
Hoo boy! And you said I had MY drawers in a wad! I have not hardened my heart toward you. I simply challenged your knowledge about how your tithes were being used. Guess I hit a nerve.
This isn’t a you vs me competition. You’re the one who’s supposed to be a follower of Christ.
How are your circumstances outside the context? It was the rich man asking Jesus how to get to heaven. He had already followed all the commandments as proscribed. Are you claiming not to be a rich man? Do you not think in Christ’s eyes you would be a rich man? You have everything you need and more, don’t you? And yes, Jesus said, a few verses on,
Oh, my. That was a great little rant! Good for you! Except I didn’t swallow the Obama/liberal class-envy blah, blah. I’m afraid I’ve had that since I was a little kid.
In the end it’s all about decomposition. Before that, what we do is based on the principles we hold.
It doesn’t matter what others may say. I always think I could do more.
But I recognize that I have limitations. Do you ever reach a point when you feel you can say, “I’ve done enough for others”?
Since he was born.
karen:
Judging from the context of that quote, I think it was aimed @ the apostles.
JCC,
I haven?t had many discussions with you, but wow!
First you state that scientists who do not acknowledge the power of love aren?t worth ?his/her salt?. Right?
I?m not sure if any scientists have ever suggested that human ACTIONS driven by emotions are not powerful; as people tend to ACT out according to how they feel, based on what they believe will satisfy those feelings. For example: The terrorist involved in 911 felt hatred toward American, believed we were infidels, and killing us would satisfy a cause (obtaining virgins in the afterlife), so they willed themselves to fly into the twin towers. In my opinion, most humans are driven by the desire to satisfy immaterial emotions; such as love, hate, sense of knowledge or understanding. That being said, emotions, consciousness, or the spirits without physical existence have no effect on the natural world; and therefore, have no power at all.
You KNOW? WOW! How do you KNOW that your conscious does not and cannot be merely the manifestation of firing neurons in your brain?
Fortunately, I believe your claims can be tested in a laboratory. Have you had a partial lobotomy lately? Better yet, have you ever known someone who suffered a brain injury? I have? These individuals are no longer the same; they can?t remember things that made them who they were. In essence, they become new people; their family and friends are responsible for adjusting to a stranger in their lives.
If your claims are correct, then by WILL alone, you can direct neurons to fire in the event you suffered a significant brain injury or loss of actual brain matter. IMO, this claim has no scientific merit?but good luck with that!
You also made the following comment:
My interpretations of this statement lend tremendous credence to the power of the delusional mind. In my opinion, OCD and other phobias are extreme forms of irrational behavior; and therefore, are the equivalent to believing in God, Santa Claus, unicorns, etc. If people suffering from the OCD delusion can be cured by altering the will, that suggests there?s hope for people like YOU?
I could go on, but I’m tired and hungry. Time ta eat some’tin and take a nap.
Karen,
I think it was Apostle (nominal, as he was not selected by Jesus) Paul who said, “if there is no resurrection, we are the most to be pitied.” And indeed you are.
You think by arguing prolife you stand on the higher moral ground, but where were those morals as Joshua led the Isrealites in bloody genocide through the “holy land” killing every man, woman and child, and even the livestock?
Where was your higher ground when your god killed every man, woman and child on the planet except for Noah and his family?
Where was your rediculous higher ground when your god leveled Sodom and Gomorrah for tolerating gays?
You think your god thinks that life is holy? Go back and read your bible again. This time open your eyes.
If he’s a tenth of the god you claim he is, why is he unaware of the fact that our numbers as humans has maxed out this planet’s ability to absorb our pollution and sewage.
Usually, I am a really patient fellow, understanding the mechanism of brainwash on the naive. But, Karen, you tend to really piss me off, because you are obviously a fairly intelligent drone. There is no excuse for you to hide from the facts, to pretend your reward awaits you when you die. There is no excuse for a person of your perception to read the bible and not realize that your god is a ruthless monster.
If you are a parent, do you force your children to bow and pray to you, and tell you how great you are. And why would a parent ever desire that? Wake up, Karen. You’re wasting your life, and it’s the only one you get.
NeoWolfe
neowolfe,
I’m going to assume you have misunderstood something about Karen. I’ll let her deal with it, but what in the world are you talking about?
And I have been wondering how old you are. Are you a teenager?
karen:
No, I think of pro-life in terms of the entire nine month gestation period.
Oh yeah, right. Of course, silly me, why couldn?t I have seen that?
I can?t say for sure, but I believe it doesn?t take nearly as long to adopt from overseas.
Yep, that?s all-a-us all right, in fact, I just come back from pickin? off one-a them s.o.b.?s as soon as he come outta his office after killin? all them babies.
My apologies, I assumed you knew he had already adopted 2 little girls from China (one of whom was tragically killed in a car accident in May).
Obviously the part where you were trying to guilt me into adopting all of them and mentoring all the fatherless ones as well.
You?ve nailed all of us no-good Christians again and you?ve exposed the gospel for what it really is: yes, I admit, as a Christian I?m called to belittle and heap my scorn on all women contemplating an abortion. Showing love and extending compassion to such dregs of humanity is the last thing Christ would want us to do for them.
Maybe that?s because I spend every minute I can being a father to my own kids at this point in our lives. But, yes, I must admit, only a lout like me wouldn?t use that one free hour every night (after the kids have gone to bed and before I go to bed) to go to the local homeless shelter and mentor every fatherless kid there. Or, what?s worse, only a lout like me wouldn?t go so deeply into debt that his grand kids would have to finish paying it off to adopt every available black child here in America.
Yeah, you did. You insinuated financial malfeasance and misappropriation of funds by my church and indifference by me towards it.
Then why all the accusations of my indifference toward unadopted kids?
Yeah, I am, but I?m also not going to stand idly by while you insult my church and make assumptions about what?s in my heart.
This isn?t the year A.D. 30 and I haven?t been told face-to-face by Jesus himself to sell all my possessions. But I am trying to be faithful by attempting to be salt and light to a lost and hurting world.
Sorry, I ain?t gonna bite.
Context Karen. Krys got it right; I?m not one of the Twelve.
Another reason why I continue to keep you in my prayers.
And if the principles are bad then so are our deeds.
Actually, yes?and that?s where prayer comes in. When I?ve done all that I physically am able to do, then I have no choice but to leave the rest up to God. The world isn?t in my hands, but I know I?m in the hands that hold the world.
KA
Yes, he was addressing the apostles, but I highlighted the part where he said “And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother[f] or children or fields for my sake” blah, blahbiddy- blah. And since this is found in the book of Matthew, I assume the apostles were to disseminate this information to thee people.
Neowolfe
I have been trying to figure you out since you started posting here. Now you have really thrown a big wrench in the works. I think you have me terribly confused with someone else.
I am Pro-CHOICE and a very proud ATHEIST. Though I do lovingly support the FSM (Marinara Be Upon Him) and look forward to the days when pirates are once again plentiful.
But thanks for letting me know I piss you off. I can only hope the wind is blowing toward you when it happens.
jcc
Head->desk, head->desk, head->desk.
You got the joke? Sorry, I missed the nuance when you described it as
an exquisite example of the cognitive dissonance liberal relativism produces in the minds of the unthinking. Wow, subtle.
Yes, we Americans are an awfully impatient bunch. Don’t like waiting in lines. Plus, no sense getting a used kid here in a short time when for $20K you can get a brand new model overseas. It’s only the babies you have to wait a long time for here.
I never said all of you. Anyway Dude, you’re doing it wrong. The manual says to kill ‘em fust thang in teh mornin’ afore they has a chance to kill any young’uns.
I’m sorry. I’m supposed to know who this guy is? Never heard of him.
Never said that. Said you could do more mentoring ONE child. ONE. Said Christians who are pro-life and protesting at clinics should be adopting. Never said you specifically. Never mentioned a number. But as the old joke goes, if the Foo shits…
All right. Prove me wrong. If those people outside abortion clinics waving Bibles, quoting scripture, threatening hell and damnation aren’t Christians, then what are they? And don’t tell me they aren’t real Christians, because you know they believe they are, whether you do or not. Where is the love and compassion in calling these women the dregs of humanity? If they are being shown love and compassion by the people protesting, then why do volunteers need to be there to escort and protect them on their way in and out of the clinics?
Well, I didn’t mean to insinuate any such thing. I asked you if you knew what your money actually went towards. It could be that your church has done nothing wrong itself, but may have been taken in by a less than reputable charity. I didn’t think you indifferent, but possibly too naively trusting. It could be that the charity is wonderful and the money is well spent. I was just asking a question. Your persecution complex has a powerful hold on you throughout this conversation. Why do you think everything is a trap?
You’re Pro-life. If you’re going to argue that position, then you better come up with a plan for all the life that is going to result from it, without neglecting that life which already exists and is in need. Take responsibility for your position. As you said, you’re Pro-life for the entire nine month gestation period. After that, it’s “You’re on your own, Sucker!”
Ah, so it doesn’t matter if it just says so in the book now. Thanks for the tip. So I can rightfully say to you that if Jesus wants me to believe he’s real he has to come and tell me face-to-face that he is?
Just what has Jesus told you face-to face?
Convenient. OK. Then I’ll assume nothing Christ said to the apostles applies to anyone else. OH, and that thing about “go and sin no more” That was to that adultering woman. Not meant for anyone else. Cool. It’s not 30AD anymore so nothing in the Bible applies. I wish you’d have just said that a long time ago.
Wait. What? My liberal class envy had to do with growing up lower middle class and being snubbed by the mid-upper middle class kids, while always feeling bad for the really poor kids. Did you even know that about me yet? It wasn’t connected to the abuse, except tangentially, since I was gifted with great empathy from the experience.
I am confident that my principles are just dandy.
Uh huh. Like that couple who went to church with their four kids. They came home, made a mad dash into the house with the three older ones and all the belongings from the car, but forgot the 15 month old sleeping in the back. God watched over her. He watched over her as she baked to death for three hours in the hot car and the family finally realized -one of the kids actually noticed- that the baby wasn’t in her bed. Super job, God! Glory be! Dad was a pastor too. You’d think he’d have a link-up Jesus (who loves the little chillun)could use to send him a message like, “Hey, IDJIT! You left your kid in the car!!!”
Allstate, right? You should check Geico and see if you can get a better deal.
Wow, this is…weird:
How many hours do you spend here flagellating us for our lack of belief? Do try to include the hours you spend formulating some Lewisian argument, or ‘correcting blatant mendacities’.
I mean, really, be honest: what is your tally of man-hours just trying to convince total strangers on the web that you’re right about your particular superstition? Do avoid the ‘hey, what about YOU?’ gambit to circumvent the facts (you use that a great deal, enough where it’s gotten pretty old).
Hours (maybe even weeks) that could’ve been better spent improving the world – oh, but that’s right.
In the end, ‘gawd’ will set it all right. ‘Gawd’ will see that justice is done. ‘Gawd’ will take care of it all FOR us.
Unless you can prove that beyond a shadow of a doubt, it’s all guesswork, & wishful thinking.
“Ghandi is dandy, but liquor is quicker.” – Phil Sebbin.
Karen
I have been trying to figure Neowolfe out as well. At times he/she appears to see himself as chief thread wrangler. And then there was this strange plea to Mark Farris in which NeoWolfe would like to convince Mark that they are kindred spirits. And now this thing with you.
I made a terrible misidentification mistake on this blog a while back so I would like to give NeoWolfe the benefit of the doubt. Still there is some odd behavior.
JCC
Are you a stay-at-home father? Nothing wrong with that. I have considered it myself and may consider it again in five years. I now how much time it takes to be a good parent. I also know how precious time is. Have you ever considered being less wasteful with your time? You could skip church, Sunday school, praying and all that stuff you do that has no demonstrable benefit to your family. I am not ridiculing you – for now. I am truly trying to show you that there is better and less wasteful way to live.
Read that again.
I…,I…,I…,umm…, what can one say? One is reminded of the phrase, ‘Are you shittin’ me?’ One has t’ give one’s head a cartoon-like shake. One don’t gotta say nutin, do one?
The Bible: The inerrant word of God, except when it doesn’t fit with my modern interpretation of Context.
It’s called Behavior Modification and was covered by Albert Bandura in the 70’s (amongst others).
IMHO there’s a wierd contest going on in megachurches to adopt foriegn kids, especially those of Asian and Russian descent. Perhaps less adoption cost and red tape provides more fertile minds to indoctrinate?
Obeah
That was precious! Thanks for pointing it out. JCC is more than willing to “interpret” the buybull to meet his needs but when other’s needs are in question he wants direct communication with a mythical character.
karen:
Has your cynicism no end? God forbid you should acknowledge the fact that couples who are willing to adopt want the child as soon as possible for the child?s sake?they understand that the sooner out of an orphanage and in loving home the better it is for the child? and God forbid you should acknowledge the fact that conditions in foreign orphanages are far and away worse than they are here. Sometimes, karen, the coldness you have in your heart towards people saddens me beyond words.
Just assumed you?d heard about his daughter?s accident since it was all over the secular news?and that clip you watched was from Larry King?.on the Clinton News Network.
If I really had a ?persecution complex? then why did you feel it necessary to clarify your remarks about how my church disburses it?s funds? And after 3 years of conversing with you here, I?ve learned to spot when you?re attempting to set a trap a mile away.
So merely being pro-life will somehow increase the unwanted pregnancy rate?
Sometimes your deliberately provincial thinking amazes me. Ever heard of Crisis Pregnancy Centers??I help support them through Focus On The Family?but you?re right, doing so is really just my way of saying, ?tough luck.?
My apologies. It seems I?ve done exactly what I said I wouldn?t do anymore with you?that is attempt to reason with you on the assumption that you?ll at least try to understand my point of view.
Yep. Killing a child purely out of convenience?that?s as fine and dandy a principle if ever there was one.
That?s my karen; an inexhaustible well of grace and compassion. Lord knows she?s never unintentionally put her kids lives at risk or done something that will haunt her for the rest of her life.
Ok, you?ve driven your point home again; it?s pointless for me to try to get you to open your eyes.
cry4turtles:
And exactly what is responsible for modifying behavior??Oh yeah, the will…
jcc
“God forbid you should acknowledge the fact that couples who are willing to adopt want the child as soon as possible for the child?s sake?they understand that the sooner out of foster care and in loving home the better it is for the child…”
There-fixed that for you, to make it apply to the states. There aren’t any orphanages here any more. Kids just get shuffled from one foster care home to another, till they end up in a group home or out out their own. I don’t deny that the orphanages overseas are terrible places, but what compassionate person ignores the needy child right next to him and goes looking in the next city to see if there’s a needy child to help?
It’s not the people, it’s the hypocrisy. Hate the sin, not he sinner, remember? anyway, don’t be sad; I haven’t noticed any glowing warmth for people coming from you. I’ll match my “cold” heart to yours anytime.
You ASSUMED something about me?!?! OMFSM! How DARE you!
I don’t watch Larry King, unless someone refers to a clip as you did.
Didn’t see any secular news about the little girl either.
I clarified because those were the actual possibilities running through my head when I originally asked the question and I wanted to juxtapose them next to your accusation. Not that you’ll believe me, but will say I’m being disingenuous. And no, I was not setting any trap, but you will probably not believe that either. You give me entirely too much credit in that regard.
Not what I meant, but now that you mention it, it sure ain’t gonna decrease it.
Who’s killing children? Not me. Who’s advocating killing children? Not me. If Jesus doesn’t want abortions to occur, he should come and tell me to my face. And he should quit performing them himself.
The only thing I can think of is that when my daughter was 2, she slipped away from my mother-in-law and me when we were in a drug store together in Pennsylvania. She wasn’t in the cart because this store had teeny little carts for toddlers to push around the store with their moms. She was out of my sight for about 5 seconds when we both split up to look for her. I found her near the door greeting people as they came. A potentially dangerous situation, and it scared the piss out of me. It doesn’t haunt me. In fact I really had to search my memory for it. But I did learn from it and keep my kids on a much tighter leash whenever I was out with them after that.
MY eyes ARE open.
Hey do you home school your kids? Cos if you do, you could bring the family and spend a week in Myrtle Beach at my time share and we could argue day and night about this stuff!
JCC
In all of your back and forth with Karen were you actually defending an argument about anything? I just see you starting out with an implicit assumption – that women don’t have certain rights – and then trying to change the subject rather than confront that your assumption is wrong.
Karen,
No, I’m not a teenager, I wish I were so I could avoid a lot of stupid life changing errors that I made. But, what I am is embarrassed, it’s not the first time. I went back and reread the post I was responding to and realized that I had mistaken your comments with those of JCC. I stand by the ideas, I just addressed it to the wrong person.
I am more compassionate than most atheists with fundamentalists, trying to understand that they are more like victims than perpetrators, but, I do tend to get offended when they stand on the “sanctity” of life, and ignore the hideous bloodthirsty past of the god they worship.
And, I am not even pro-choice. I am “hands off”. I don’t feel qualified to even offer advice on such a moral question. Due to natural maternal instincts, and underlying belief systems, I expect that the ramifications are potentially serious, and a mother should be completely at peace with her decision before going ahead.
I’m going to shut up and go away, now that I have firmly established my total irrelevence (smile).
NeoWolfe
Neowolfe
I see how you got jcc and I confused. We are actually twins, separated at birth, by time, distance, different mothers, fathers, and other circumstances. We found each other through this blog and are trying to resolve our differences brought about by nature/nurture and rekindle our natural “twin-sense”.
It wasn’t I who asked if you were a teenager, but I can understand you wanting to combine answers in a single post. Or maybe you got confused again. No matter. I will plead with the nuns to stop rapping your knuckles with a ruler now as you have acknowledged your mistake. You may just have to make a run for it, because once they start, it’s difficult to stop them. Lots of pent up emotion in those nuns.
Please stay and keep contributing. I still want to figure you out.
NeoWolfe
Mistakes happen. You owned up. Stick around.
karen:
This is true? and I am humbled. Thank you for that much needed reality check. May I also apologize for losing my temper with you at a time when a measure of patience would have accomplished so much more?
I do appreciate your input here, karen, and I genuinely do care about you; otherwise I wouldn?t let what you say frustrate me so.
No, we?re actually quite blessed to live in an excellent and extraordinarily tolerant school district, so we haven?t had to consider home-schooling as of yet. Besides, had school not started today, my wife could very well have ended up killing at least one of my kids?I know I probably would have after three straight months of bored kids around the house.
Thanks for the offer though. That sounds like a great place to relax and enjoy the beach (though I?m sure you?d never get me to shut me up). In all sincerity though, I do hope we can meet face-to-face some day on this side of eternity. I?d love to introduce you to my family and learn more about you.
jcc
You don’t have to apologize for getting angry with me. I realize how antagonistic I am toward your positions and beliefs. It really is like arguing with my brother. I feel like I know you better than my brother. And I actually care more about you than him.
Sorry you can’t make it to the beach.
If anyone else wants to come, it’s the week of Sept. 13-20 (if that’s Sat.-Sat.). It’s actually Surfside Beach, just south of Myrtle, and we’re not on the beach, about 1 1/2 miles away. There’s a golf course, if you’re a golfer, and you get discounts (maybe even a free round at Deerfield, I can’t recall since I don’t use it). The condo is 3 BR, 2 BA sleeps 8 with the pull-out sofa. One king, one queen, 2 twin beds.
Gotta warn ya, I’m pretty boring. I just go to the beach and hang out. If there’s a Steeler game on that week, it’s mandatory watching. You buy your food and pay for your entertainment and the housing’s on me. It is a second floor unit with about 16 stairs to navigate. There’s an enclosed pool and jacuzzi on site.
Actually “the will” is only a small part of it, perhaps a kickoff in the beginning. As anybody who has sucessfully dieted knows, the will is very fallible. It’s actually the reward or “reinforcements” that keeps one chugging along, fitting into those jeans, the compliments, etc. The power of reinforcement makes the will seem rather weak, and without it, the behavior modification would fail.