BALTIMORE ? After denying Javon Thompson food and water for two days because he wouldn’t say “amen” after meals, the 1-year-old’s caretakers waited for a divine sign that their message had been heard: a resurrection.For more than a week, police say in charging documents describing the scene, the child’s lifeless body lay in the backroom of an apartment. Queen Antoinette, the 40-year-old leader of a group that called itself 1 Mind Ministries, brought in her followers and told them to pray. God, she said, would raise Javon from the dead.Instead, Javon’s body began to decompose.The boy’s mother, Ria Ramkissoon, 21, and four other people, including Trevia Williams, 21, who authorities say are members of the group face first-degree murder charges. But Ramkissoon’s mother and attorney say that she was brainwashed by a cult and acted only at the group leader’s will.Court documents describe a group that operated secretly, dressed all in white and eschewed medical care. Antoinette, also known as Toni Sloan or Toni Ellsberry, called her followers “princes” and “princesses.” And she and her followers were possessive of the children under their care.Children have been killed in similar groups for failing to follow cult teachings, said Rick A. Ross, who has studied cults for 26 years. That appears to have been the case with Javon, who was viewed as a “demon,” according to police statements.
Dawkins wasn’t the first one to point this out, but he did poignantly express that the problem with moderate religions is that it makes way for extremists. This poor child died, because the mother was conditioned by society to obey religious figures, and she picked the wrong one to obey.Of course, the mother had to be mentally unstable in the first place, but there are a LOT of mentally unstable people out there who are trained by religions to follow orders without question. This leads to some believing their children are demons.I hate death. But more than that, I hate needless death. More than that, I hate needless death of innocent children. And this, my dear friends, is why I support the Death Penalty. Fry some cult leaders, and this will stop happening, IMO.
Cynic:
Preventing conceptions and preventing abortions are two totally different political footballs.
Maybe you don?t get out as often as you should: The Spiritual Brain: A Neuroscientist’s Case for the Existence of the Soul published by HarperOne, written by Mario Beauregard, a neuroscientist from the University of Montreal, and Denyse O’Leary, a science journalist, is one such text.
Jcc,
Jeff Meldrum, a professor of anatomy and anthropology at Idaho State University in Pocatello says Bigfoot is real.
WHAT: I would agree with your point,that’s why I finished my post with “we must give the benefit of the doubt to women, who are indisputable human beings with rights.”
If someone has a claim to a right to live, shouldn?t they have some sort of independent life of their own? A fetus is only able to live because it is attached to the womb of the mother; therefore, any claim to a ?right? to live must necessarily be at the expense of the woman.
I’m sure we will never resolve the abortion issue on this forum. However, I think that no one – whether they are pro-choice, or pro-life – thinks that a 2 month old fetus is a “baby.”
If a woman has a stillborn baby, there is usually a funeral and burial.
I have never heard of someone having a funeral for a misscarriage.
jcc
I am not aware of any atheists who are anti-choice. Atheists I am aware of seek to reduce abortion through the proper use of other birth control methods, and most do not agree with late-term abortion. In the exceedingly rare case when a fetus survived an abortion, I would think any atheist would want it placed in a loving home. And those people who are staunchly and rabidly against a woman’s freedom of choice should be lined up around the block, waiting to take responsibility for the child. I have not yet come across a single atheist who falls into this category.
While I myself am in no position to adopt a child, I do contribute financially and with hands-on familial love to the raising of two boys taken away from their crackhead mama, and being adopted by a friend of mine. How many kids not your own do you love and help support?
JCC wrote”Maybe you don?t get out as often as you should: The Spiritual Brain: A Neuroscientist’s Case for the Existence of the Soul published by HarperOne, written by Mario Beauregard, a neuroscientist from the University of Montreal, and Denyse O’Leary, a science journalist, is one such text.
What’s wrong with the book is the implication that Marion Beauregard has scientific evidence that “spiritual experiences are actual connections to a presence outside ourselves, and that their power to transform our lives is a power which derives from an authentic encounter with an outside reality.”(God) We all know he has no such evidence. Instead he’s interpreting the bahvior of the nuns in terms of what HE’D like to believe and not what he actually observes.
Publishing with a genuine IDiot like Denyse O’Leary also destroys his credability.
Besides, I said paper, not book. Anyone can get a book published.
Yeah. When I saw Denyse O’Leary, I figured, well, no point going any further.
Jonathon
I like your style and clarity of thought.
Cynic
You and I know differently but most xians that I have communicated with give greater credence to books than peer reviewed articles. I know. It’s retarded.
Right there is your problem, jcc. There was no magic involved, just biology. I know that religious folks tend to think in simplistic black and white absolute terms but human development isnt as cut and dry as that. There isnt a set moment when every clump opf cells first becomes a baby, its a gradual and more subtle process than that. However, I can tell you that this transition does not take place before the second trimester. I am just as uncomfortable with very late term abortions as you are but thats not what Im arguing here.
Actually there is a very strong secular, though not specifically atheistic, campaign to reduce abortions: its called realistic and comprehensive sex education in school.
Alex
Whats more since the definition of what is human is not precise then how can one answer JCC’s question about at what point in development this transition to human takes place. But all this what-is-human discussion just plays into the hands of the anti-choicers. Women have rights.
JONATHAN SMITH:
I have no doubt that Stephen Hawking shares your sentiments on that completely?
karen:
Which is to be expected.
Which is quite unexpected.
What makes you think no one is? Are you saying the entire right-to-life movement is nothing but lip-service?
I don?t know. My tithe through my church supports many charities?not the least of which are orphanages?but why do you try to falsely portray being pro-life with having to adopt or find a home for every abortion survivor? I also adhere to the principle of ending world hunger, but can I personally feed every hungry child in the world? Come on karen, be practical.
JONATHAN SMITH:
How do you know he has no such evidence? Have you read the book?
That sounds like an assumption on your part. But the larger point about the study on the nuns wasn?t proving the existence of God, it was disproving the existence of the fabled ?God-spot? in the brain that materialist neuroscientist have touted for years. While you?re to be commended for at least doing a cursory search on the book and its authors, you seemed to have fallen into the all too common atheist trap of jumping to conclusions without learning all the facts first.
I believe you forgot to preface that sentence with ?in my opinion.?
Cynic:
?and anyone can publish a research ?paper.?
karen:
I must confess to having that same reflexive reaction to names like Dawkins, Hitchins and Shermer? but in the interest of objectivity, I strive to overcome such emotional responses.
alexatheist:
Really? Then when did this child undergo that transformation?
http://tinyurl.com/6lnocx
She didn?t get a third trimester? and she sure looks human to me?
Uh, in the second trimester. Reread my words. I have no issue with abortions in the first trimester. Second and third, yes.
Errrr JCC,
No, anyone most certainly CANNOT get a published paper in a journal. This requires what is called peer-review. This is in stark contrast to getting a book published, which requires nothing but dollars.
Why don’t you take a look at Beauregards published paper list on the NCBI website….wow surprise, surprise..absolutely NO MENTION of any of the gibberish in this book, just titles like: In vivo measurements of brain trapping of C-labelled alpha-methyl-L-tryptophan during acute changes in mood states.
Still, no doubt this is due to the evil bias of atheistic scientists on the peer review committee…people who would no doubt gleefully finish of those who survived abortion.
You are a fool.
I should rephrase the first part of my previous post…anything can be published as a book, but anything can most certainly not be published as a paper.
This debate reminds me of my all time greatest FSTDT quote:
“I am 100% pro-life, unless your talking about the death penalty, in which case I am 100% pro-death.”
That really says it all doesn’t it?
What,
I’m wit’cha sister! Women do have rights!!!
IMO, life means a self sustaining organism.
For example:
An appendage/limb; such as an arm or leg can only survive as long as it is connected to central body organs/brain. Although one can make the argument that appendages are
living things too, one cannot make the point that an appendage is self sustaining life. If life were so easily defined, one individual could actually give birth to many
deaths.
For example: Amputating one finger at a time could result in 10 deaths; assuming both thumbs were removed too.
A fetus on the other hand is potential life that depends upon its mother’s nutrient rich uterus for survival. Much like an appendage, a fetus is not self sustaining life
until it is capable of living outside the womb; independent of its mothers organs. Consequently, non-self sustaining life has no say in self sustaining life issues.
That being said, once a child is born, living, and breathing on its own; it is self sustaining life.
JMO
Whereas YOU think you’re the standard-bearer for ‘objective reality.’
Really, truly – I’d like just ONE, that’s right, only ONE former atheist to show up here, & tell us all that your constant barrage of inanities changed his/her mind.
Maybe then I wouldn’t imagine you w/a jester’s cap any more, or hear the bells jingle when you harry the lot of us w/your delusional ideology.
JCC
Here is my question for you. Is it really possible that somebody can be as stupid as your statement implies and still be able to breath?
Atheon
Well I am a bro but would be delighted to become an honorary member of d’ sistahood.
JCC
Sorry for not responding any sooner to you ,but I live in Florida with all the nasty weather to deal with!
You said ” have no doubt that Stephen Hawking shares your sentiments on that completely”
Your point being that we can compare a fetus with a adult scientist who has full brain fuction,to make his own choices?
You said
“How do you know he has no such evidence? Have you read the book?”
I really tried to read the book for about a week and I finally decided it’s not worth the effort. It’s just about completely unreadable. It’s a very poorly written book, which reaches unsupportable conclusions by ridiculous contortions of logic. The format of the book is to throw out some briefly stated “fact” about the awesome power of the brain which the authors purport is unexplainable by natural processes, followed by hammering the reader with the weight of multiple authorities in quote after quote, and it doesn’t matter whether said authority actually supports the issue in contention.
It describes fMRI studies of nuns experiencing, they say, mystical feelings of various intensities. The results: their brain activity during these episodes is complex, therefore the materialists are wrong when they assign simple causes.How on earth can you mix supernatural feelings with natural brain functions?
All this mixed in with near-death experiences and out-of-body experiences as evidence for an external source for the mind, and credulously state that psychic powers like telepathy and telekinesis are real!!
Sorry my Friend this book just does not hold water,(like your position).
Oh yes,if you think ID is a valid scientific theory, worthy of my respect, then please state your evidence for it.That should be interesting reading!!
JONATHAN:
Oh, I can summarize it for ya:
DNA is a codex, it shows ‘intelligent design’ (despite the redundancies & obvious errors), the universe is held together via the glue of black holes, pretty much an extension of ‘look, everything existing proves it!’
Jonathan
I like your use of “my friend”. Because of the association of the phrase with John “Keating Five” McCain I started using it as a substitute for “f you”.
What,
My apologies! LOL!
Welcome to da brudah hood.
Jonathan
More importantly the ID deluded need to propose a test that would falsify ID. Even a hypothesis tested and shown to be wrong is of value but without a test a hypothesis is of less value than wrong one.