Where was God?’ ask refugees from Georgia warBy MANSUR MIROVALEV ?ALAGIR, Russia (AP) ? Sarmat Kapisov ran all night through the forest with his family, fleeing the fighting in South Ossetia and headed for the Georgia-Russia border. On his back, the 17-year-old carried his brother, who has cerebral palsy.”It wasn’t easy,” Kapisov said, huddled alongside his mother and seven siblings, who have taken refuge here at an Orthodox convent across the Russian border.The convent director, known as Mother Nonna, said thousands have passed through since the bloodshed began one week ago in the pro-Russian separatist province claimed by Georgia.Most were South Ossetian women and children on their way to a refugee center set up inside a summer camp by Russian authorities. Many of the fathers and older brothers stayed behind to fight.Mother Nonna said she had never seen so many terrified children clinging to their mothers’ skirts.”The most difficult thing was to answer their question: Where was God?” she said. “They had so much fear in their eyes.”
I am not trying to diminish the horror felt by anyone who is displaced from a war being waged by or on their government. However, I did want to mention the whole idea of people being unprepared for real tragedy because they think an invisible man in the sky is somehow in charge.So here is the assertion du jour — religion IS harmful even at a moderate level because it allows the believer to avoid reality, thereby being unprepared for when reality hits. If they expect a miracle, and one never comes, how can they be prepared? There is hope, but then there is crushing disappointment when reality sets in.
We can tell those children that God was with his follower in charge of Russia.
Since Vladimir Putin left office in May of 2008, the new president of Russia has been Dmitry Anatolyevich Medvedev, and just like Putin, Medvedev belongs to the Russian Orthodox Church.
Wouldn’t it be interesting if our mainstream media focused a bit of attention on the very Christian nature of the mindset of the leader of Russia right now. Which religion are Georgians now?
Wikipedia says that the Jewish community of Georgia is one of the oldest Jewish communities in the world. Here’s the breakdown:
Today most of the population practices Orthodox Christianity of the Georgian Orthodox Church (81.9%). The religious minorities are: Muslim (9.9%); Armenian Apostolic (3.9%); Russian Orthodox Church (2.0%); Roman Catholic (0.8%). 0.8% of those recorded in the 2002 census declared themselves to be adherents of other religions and 0.7% declared no religion at all.
So this is basically theists against theists. Where is their loving god, indeed?
Russia has a long history of invading and controlling Georgia, along with several other republics it once had total control over. Now that it’s not the USSR, but a smaller, leaner Russia we’re talking about, we Atheists can point the finger and say “The Atheists aren’t in charge there anymore. The Christians are. So when will the killing stop??”
The new Reds are Christians?!
Joe Zamecki
Austin TX
I am a Christian who is simply browsing through this website, and I happened upon this blog. I honestly find it sad that Americans, whether we be Christian, Atheist, Agnostic, Muslim, Buddhist, or whatever the case may be, cannot come together on one simple fact- we are all AMERICANS!!! This war in Georgia is simply escalating tensions between the West and the Russian Federation, almost back to Cold War status! I’m not blaming the Atheists alone, I agree that many Christians are close-minded to other beliefs, such as Atheism. I, for one, have found it much easier to question nature and its forces less, and simply believe that God has control. I DO use logic and common sense though, and make sure I do things myself, because I know that God cannot fully control us for he blessed us with free will. Nonetheless, I believe that this never-ending argument of “there is a God” vs. “there’s no such thing as God” has been going on for far too long! We should all get off of our high-horses, and simply accept each other for who we are! We should all love one another as brothers and sisters living here on Earth! Whether you believe this Earth was created by a Big Bang or by a God, we all inhabit it, don’t we? It is truly saddening to see this divide widen. I believe that many people will agree with me on this- whether they be Christians or Atheists or any other faith/belief. In conclusion- we are all people living on Earth. We should feel sympathy for these refugees, and do what we can to help them. I hope the U.S. starts sending significant amounts of aid to Georgia, and that Russia screws its head back on correctly. The balance of world relations is very shaky right now, and we may all soon be in WWIII. I wish everyone the best of luck in your journeys, and God Bless. And if you’re not a believer, I hope you have the support of many around you.
Russia isn’t doing anything that we wouldn’t do (or haven’t done). I really doubt any of this has anything to do with religion though.
On Dave’s point specifically, I’m hard-pressed to disagree. On this other hand, I don’t know what good putting their trust in themselves — and not the sky faeries — would have done them in this case, so it doesn’t merit a good illustration of the dangers of operating with their head in the clouds.
Well many Christians say that we can only get morals from religion, and in every action and decision we display, our morals shine through. Many Christians insist that they do everything better because they have this moral compass that no one else has or has figured out.
Sure our government might’ve done this sort of thing too, but I wouldn’t support it. Russia has attacked several border nations now, and added up, it amounts to bad political and military decision making with terrible consequences.
If doing something really really bad can’t be considered a reflection on the religion of a devout Christian, then what’s it take?
Joe Zamecki
Austin
Obviously morals have about as much to do with this “god” of theirs as, well, you supply the analogy — I can’t think of anything sufficiently distant!
Are we so sure what the Russians are doing is out of line though? Osettia was an independent nation before they were, er, brought into the USSR. They were granted independent status again shortly before the break-up of the USSR. Then Georgia decided they wanted them for their own and attacked. S. Ossetia fought back and had been treated as an independent since 1992 — that’s 16 years, a long time to get used to the idea of being independent by anyone’s measure.
So we’ve got this independent nation, who is pro-Russia, a large percentage of whose citizens also have Russian citizenship. On the Russian border. Except for the irrelevant say-so of the UN, they are a sovern land — that Georgia officially claims them isn’t particularly relevant, right?
So Georgia recently decides to start attacking again. Russia defends it, then decides to ensure that Georgia isn’t in a position to do this again for a while.
How is this different than the first gulf war? They’re the Russians, so they “must” be wrong, right? This action on their part has been completely mild compared to that. What’s more, S. Ossettia involved their OWN citizens their OWN border.
It’s absolutely mind-numbing how utterly hypocritical the US government is being on this matter.
Another mother kills her kids to protect them from evil:
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,404041,00.html
Greatbean,
I think you missed a really important memo about atheism:
Who exactly is trying to argue that there is no God?
There is a huge difference between “I believe that no God exists” and “I don’t believe that a God exists.” The first is a negative assertion that can never be proven and is completely illogical to accept as fact. The second is the default position that we’re all born with. It is one that asks for evidence and withholds judgment until there is sufficient evidence either way. I’ve never met an atheist who accepted the first statement (though I’m told they exist, they’re called Strong Atheists, note the capitalization), and I’ve never met an atheist who rejected the second.
The only reason the debate continues is because theists attempt to force their views onto the general public and onto their children. If we ever dropped the issue, we’d all be atheists in 2 generations.
Now you have. I believe that no deities exist. I also believe that no invisible pink unicorns, smurfs, leprachauns or elves exist.
It is no more an illogical statement to say such than it is to agree that no operational definition of said deity(ies) can be formulated.
History illustrates that the number of places that a god could be hiding is decreasing as more information becomes available. (The god of the gaps)
If there were a “scale” of discovery that was similar to the scales we use for temperature, we can extrapolate that there is no god in the same way we extrapolated the position for the 0 value of the Kelvin scale.
Unless you can prove it to a certainty, Atomictesting, you might want to just concede the point.
It seems to me that Atomic is correct.
My reasoning is that no God, as defined by human beings, could possibly exist because by simply defining what a God is, contradicts the concept of a God and our understanding of what it is to exist.
God(s) can’t exist, because by definition, they cannot not meet the criteria for our understanding of existence.
Oops…
“they cannot not meet” =
“they cannot meet”
Cynic:
Nothing has anything to do with religion. Religion is just an excuse people use for doing what they want.
Atomic & DVanWechel,
I think most atheists suspect you’re right, and there is no god, but it’s still illogical, and rash, but jump to any unsubstantiated conclusion unnecessarily.
If a god did exist, it would be beyond our understanding of anything.
Comment from: Joe Zamecki
DVW
I agree that nobody has ever given an operational definition of the words “god” and “exist” that make the question “Do gods exist?” anything but nonsense. I think the logical conclusion is that the question is nonsense and that’s all. So existence questions – and the various flavors of atheism based on existence questions – are BS because the question is BS.
Dave
Your post title “Where was god?” lends credence to the validity of the question “Do gods exist?” because it assumes that the word “god” has been operationally defined. I know of know accepted useful operational definition of the word. Do you? I suggest you don’t play the theists game at all.
know accepted -> no accepted
OT, but possible thread topic:
The July issue of _Reader’s Digest_ published some survey results, in an article titled _Why We’re Happy_, which concluded that the #1 predictor for happiness is faith. “In 2004 the General Social Survey found that 43% of religious folks said they were happy with their lives, compared with 23% of secularists. Religious people were a third more likely to say they’re optimistic about the future. And secularists were nearly twice as likely as religious people to say ‘I’m inclined to feel I’m a failure.’ While 50% of married people of faith who have children consider themselves to be very happy, only 17% of nonreligious, unmarried people without kids feel the same way.”
As an unmarried secularist with no children, I am very happy, optimistic, and don’t consider myself a failure at all. This holds true for my unmarried, childless, Atheist friends as well, so I can’t help wondering about the accuracy of such surveys, and wondering why I am never asked to participate in one.
I have yet to see a definition of a god that doesn’t at some point defy logic. The problem is, you’re assuming that logic is a system that must hold in reality, but without logic, you cannot prove that — and in the lack of it, you cannot prove anything.
So, logically, you cannot state for certain that a god of some description — logical or not — exists or not.
So far as the survey is concerned, I’ve always considered faith to be first an foremost an exercise in dishonesty. The more evidence one can gather to support one’s conclusions the less faith is required — and vice versa.
Given that, is it a stretch to suggest that this survey reflects dishonest, self-serving responses? Other studies suggest that that the religious are more prone to divorce, prison, etc. They’re more likely to be poor, downtrodden, etc. Yet here, they’re happiest.
Self-report surveys are notoriously useless — and the dishonesty (intentionally or not) of the participants is one important reason.
My favorite argument against the existence of god goes something like this:
For a god to have knowledge of the entire universe it would have to be able to observe the universe as a whole. This can not be done from inside the universe, but only from a perspective from outside could one observe the functions of the universe as a whole. Sense, by definition, the universe contains all that there is, it is impossible for said observer to exist outside of it.
Cynic
I don’t understand that. Definitions, of anything, are completely independent of logic.
A different logic may describe and predict better than that which we currently use but “proving” that is not dependent upon any form of logic. It is a matter of observation. Observation is independent of logic.
I think you participating in maddening tail chasing. If one can not give useful operational definitions of the words “god” and “exist” that would make the question “Do gods exist?” have meaning then what more is there to say than the question is nonsense ?
jstacykeith
I disagree with your analysis. Theists will tell you that there “god” operates beyond your/our comprehension and therefore our “proofs” are not applicable.
Once again the way to get beyond this tail chasing is to demand operational definitions of the words “god” and “exist” from theists.
there “god” -> their “god”
Demands for absolutes are absurd. One has to proceed on best evidence.
I am certain that I am going to die. Now, using the logic which some have suggested, I am rash to claim this fact as a certainty.
There is a possibility that I will live forever but it is about as likely as the existence of a supernatural being.
Best evidence indicates that there is no god, of any kind.
What,
I agree that any amount of logic or evidence will not convince most theists that their deepest held believes are wrong, but it worked on me. I was raised in a fundamentalist southern baptist church. When my tenth grade biology teacher tried to touch on the topic of evolution, I disrupted the class to the point he had to change the subject. I don’t know what changed in me, but in my late teens I started to realize my believes did not make sense. After a few years of introspection and contemplation I renounced my believes, and I have been a happy and content atheist for twenty years now. My point is, sometimes reason wins out.
Dagny3, Readers Digest is just government propaganda. They encourage faith, then attack the past with 10/10 vision (generally oversimplifying things), then say that there is a new “high” that killing your kids. Its all bullshit. Thanks to the new “buzz”, I’m not allowed to buy spray whipcream because I could use it to get high.
Now if you’ll excuse me, I’m going to go “cloud out”.;)
jstacykeith
I agree that reason sometimes wins. My suggestion to you and others is that your time would be better spent demanding that theists operationally define the words “god” and “exist”. Their whole delusion is based on a question that becomes exposed as nonsense when one demands that they simply give such definitions.
Most people are culturally conditioned to argue about the god question from a theists perspective. This conditioning takes many forms. One of the fundamental forms of this insidious conditioning is that most people accept the notion that the question “Do gods exist?” has meaning. Big mistake.
A relevent subject to the human condition is brought up, and What wants definitions of god and existence.
I guess, for all of us, it’s the eyes through which you see the world.
Atheists say that the world of life around us is an accident. I cannot reconcile that in the reasonable part of my psyche. Christians say we were meant to live forever and the devil messed it all up. Orders of factors more rediculous.
Have you people read anything about what it was like to live in the dark ages? People lived in cities, not because they didn’t stink like hell, but, it was the only place you weren’t vulnerable to sudden attack by warring tribes or theives.
Without minimizing the suffering of the Georgians, remember the citizens of London during the Battle of Britain. Imagine the condition of the residents of Hanoi as Nixon bombed them into poverty. Now consider all the nations in political unrest in Africa. Victims of a horrendous hurricane can’t get help because the ruling faction is suspicious of supply carriers. No food nor medicine for the dying. Maybe some can’t see that in their minds, but I can.
No, God was not there when Georgia was attacked. God was not there when the Isrealites sacked Palestine. God was not there when a cro magnun tribe killed the last of the neanderthals. God didn’t intervene when a comet wiped out the dinosaurs.
His genious and creativity may be obvious as we look around us, but he couldn’t care less whether any of us live or die before our time,whatever that might be.
He’s kicking back and watching chaos unfold, and he can’t hear your prayers, and wouldn’t if he could.
NeoWolfe
What,
I disagree with the notion that there can be more than one form of logic. To me, either it applies or it doesn’t, and if it does, a thing either is or isn’t.
That said, definitions aren’t excluded from logical scrutiny by default (or by definition — which would be circular!). Definitions can violate logic by failing to be internally consistent. With definitions of gods, this usually comes into play with inclusions like “my god is really cool because he’s both omnipotent and omniscient!” Since those are mutally exclusive capabilities, we don’t even need to bother hashing out how those capabilities might exist on their own.
Cynic
It isn’t a matter of contention or a notion. There is more than one form of logic. Dewey’s ears are burning.
Then they aren’t definitions and my assertion stands.
Huh? How so?
Neowolfe
I can’t make any sense of that sentence. Care to clarify?
Neowolfe
Really? Who?
Definitions are subject to interpretation. I assure you all, god is dead, as if god ever really existed, I mean other than within some peoples minds. Sound like a contradiction? Well, Christians are a contradiction. Pro life my ass, I see thru you all like a piece of dirty glass.
Frank Rizzo, Obeah, What, neowolfe, jstaceykeith, everybody, yes, yes, all good food for thought. It sometimes is correct to argue from a culturally conditioned perspective. When in Rome speak as the Romans do. Gods do exist in many peoples minds but I assure you god is dead and dying and nonexistant and never was. Say it ain’t so.
What is happening in Georgia is a prelude to the invasion of Iran by America, Israel, France and Britian. The Russians are jockying for position. America is presently maneuvering more naval battle groups into the Gulf which will rival the first gulf war. Hope you’ve enjoyed gas at a lousy $3.68 a gallon because if it jumps off in Iran, you’ll soon be coughing up a chunk of change to roll down the highway. You confused Christians may get your Armageddon after all.
It’s this mindset that created the dark ages; however, in the dark ages, ignorance was a tool the church used to maintain control; most people were it’s victims. Greatbean actually CHOSES ignorance when knowledge is available. Greatbean, your mind is a terrible thing to waste. Stop it!
Does anyone else hipocrasy in the USA advising against warlike activities?
Correction-Does anyone else SEE THE hipocrasy in the USA advising against warlike activities?
What,
There is no room for the arbitrary in logic, and everything you’re proposed so far contains it.
Cynic,
I assert that I absolutely disbelieve in the Easter Bunny given the definition that it is a member of the order lagomorpha and that it is the only known monotreme belonging to said order, it lays eggs identical to those of a chicken in every way exept that they are dyed in a way aesthetically pleasing to humans and naturally come hard-boiled, and it is capable of visiting nearly every home in America simultaneously.
I assert that deities are transitively related to the Easter Bunny. Equal amounts of evidence exist for both. Both are equally likely to be conceived purely by humans, both are equally likely to have had lies concocted by humans to “prove” their existence, and all artifacts that are used to support the existence of either are all made by humans.
I concude that neither exist on the grounds that they the transitive relationship between the two.
I’ve always prefered the ones that lay Cadbury Eggs myself. The problem atomictesting is that there is a very clear and important difference between confidence — even extreme confidence — in the existence or non-existence of something and the certain knowledge of it. Because it is necessarily practical to place limits on what we accept or don’t accept, I agree with your reasoning that there isn’t an Easter Bunny.
But, as they say, absence of evidence isn’t evidence of absence. With gods, elves, and the Easter Bunny, all we can do is invalidate categories of definitions — disprove claims of miracles, account for the actual source of colored eggs, etc. When it comes to attributes that border on the supernatural, all we can really do is be confident — not certain.
Cynic,
Magic is supernatural, the tooth fairy is supernatural, and so is picking pockets. After reading the bible I can assure you there is no god, never was a god and never will be a god except within some peoples minds.
When lack of evidence falls on someones shoulders it will be Christian shoulders. Some of the evidence I have is everything Jesus Christ has not done and never will do because he doesn’t and never did exist.
The ignorant, hate filled men afraid of the dark just happened to borrow and embellish other peoples folk tales and place themselves as the central characters. It’s malarky, there are few positive morals in the bad book.
There were no doubt other creation stories, which preceded the plagerized Jewish folk tales, that were then burned by Christians. Christianity gives guilt, fear and sorrow in an attempt to sell salvation. With certainty, god does not exist. I’ll be back Thursday.
Cynic
What are you talking about. I simply can not understand your posts. Are you saying once again that there aren’t multiple logics? If you are then you are wrong. See for example Quantum Logic. The famous philosopher Dewey rightly pointed out that the rules/axioms of logic are not self evident. We use them – just like any other tool – because they have worked well. That is, they give us predictive power. Other logics could do better.
All “logics” are based upon a certain foundation, and that foundation is what I refer to. The rest are build from this, and pointing out the limitations of one formulation over another cannot invalidate root of both. Otherwise you’d have to concede things like “a=a” as merely opinion.
Cynic
You don’t make any sense.
russia has every right to secure its border.nato broke its word not to expand now it is trying to bring in georgia,ukraine.to hell with bush he supported kosovo seperatists so why can’t russia support osettian seperatists.i love america but i also love my better half who is russian.the neocons are turning the whole world against us with their insane lust for power.
Reason
Ditto!
The neocons have been working hard to pin this all on Russia. Just reading Wikipedias entry on Georgia should make the situation clear to Faux News viewers.
John “Keating Five” McCain said last week: “We are all Georgians now.” I have never seen a presidential candidate as stupid as McBush on foreign policy issues.
So you’d accept a “logic” that stated “a!=a”?
Cynic
Did I say I would? You are not making sense.
Cynic
Our present understanding of the universe says that “a thing either is or isn’t” is not a valid statement. Things exist in a superposition of eigenstates. An ideal measurement forces them into one of the set of eigenstates. Since no measurement is ever ideal things are always in superposition states and the measurement process simply decreases the “spread” in the state of the thing.
Things can exist in a superposition of “is” and “isn’t” states.
What you’re talking about are interpretations, not logic, not facts. Interpretation isn’t evidence, but the result of what we learn from evidence. Whatever the realities, at any given point in time (and time is another subject altogether), it may be A, B, C, or A, B, and C, or anything you might want to dream up. And at that point in time, it is what it is. At some other point in time, it may be something else. At each point, equal to itself.
Without a consistent form of reasoning, we are powerless to interpret evidence. Therefore, redesigning the way that a logical system works based on what evidence you discover is madness. Logic is a tool, nothing more — and nothing less. Toss it out and any interpretations made are inherently arbitrary and useless.
No doubt you’ll think that makes no sense, but I assure you — that’s all you.
Cynic
Huh!? Interpretation of what? You contrast interpretation with logic and facts as though logic and facts are the same thing. Huh!?
No its not. Interpretation is a useless and futile exercise that attempts to assign meaning to a theory beyond what the theory actually states.
What the?
You really should take a class or read a book on classical logic.
and the greatest philosophers and scientists of the past 200 years. I’ll take it!
There’s obviously no point in discussing this with you, What, until you understand that philosophy is defined by the fact that what is produces cannot be proven, that a theory is defined by the idea that it tries to explain “why” and not “what” (which is the job of laws), and there is no circumstance in which a logical fallacy can be ignored (regardless of what some philosopher you admire told you to allow his pet notion to advance).
I’ve had the logic class you suggest and then some, What. Your problem is that you didn’t understand what you took.