Friends, Hello from Texas! I made a video today about the new Bible classes in Texas public high schools. I used a large boarded-up church as my background. Cost: Priceless. http://youtube.com/watch?v=pEzBytmleag Essentially I’m challenging Atheist and/or state-church separation minded public high school students to take those Bible classes, and bring up our best critiques of the Bible. When they receive no clear or reasonable explanations, when they receive no explanations that don’t leave the Bible looking like a piece of garbage, I’m challenging them to say so. To declare out loud that the Bible is a piece of garbage, and a class on such a book is an utter mistake. (They should use respect, of course.) Then I’m challenging them to make a video about it for Youtube. If they tell me about their video, I’ll review it along with others like it, and make another video about those videos. I wish I had something tangible to give away for participation, but everyone who takes part will probably feel they’ve accomplished something; that being increased communication among the Atheist community about this fairly new state/church issue, and perhaps the enlightenment of a few teachers. Please let me know your comments on this idea. I’ll probably talk this up at the upcoming Texas Freethought Convention: www.texasfreethoughtconvention.com I think this is a good idea, but I need to hear feedback. 
) Thanks! Joe ZameckiTexas State Director, American Atheistswww.atheists.org/txwww.youtube.com/aajoeyjo
Come on now, Joe. The history of the West, for better or worse, is tied up with the bible and xianity. You cant undertsand Western Civilisation without it. Teach xianity and all major world religions in public schools so that kids have the information to ask questions and think critically about religion and its impact in the world. No one is advocating prostelisation just factual information on what different religious traditions teach. I studied Greek mythology in high school and came out of it without a literal belief in Zeus!
Alex!! We actually agree on something? Maybe there is a god after all:)
Joe,
I share your obvious disgust of religion, but one’s comprehension of English Literature, and History (not to mention Art History) would be impaired by an ignorance of Biblical themes and characters. Not knowing the references to Job, Solomon, Paul, Daniel, the Good Samaritan, the Tower of Babel, Sodom, “my brother’s keeper”, “Salvation”, and “the Garden”, etc. would lead to a culture of nit-wits.
That’s kinda what I said, Religious Studies Classes.
I agree. If you thought I was advocating for the Bible as History, you were mistaken.
And, the earlier a child is exposed to the idea of religious practice throughout the world, the earlier they begin to question; they become critical thinkers.
Joe
I like your idea and you have addressed the concerns of others here in a respectful manner. I have nothing more to add besides saying thank you and please keep me/us up-to-date on your progress by posting on this blog.
Thank you.
Atheon:
Those tags underneath the posting window are the code you enter to adjust the style of your writing. The one for marking a quotation is “blockquote”.
The tag has to be inclozed in angle brackets. Those are like parentheses except they’re straight lines instead of curves. On most keyboards, they’re the uppercase characters on “comma” & “period” keys.
The tag has to be repeated at the end of the string, with “/” inserted in front of the word, just after the beginning angle bracket.
If you google HTML, you’ll get lots of hits including a very clear & comprehensive Wikipedia article and some tutorials.
I don’t know of any way to reply to a specific post or to capture a quotation, except by copying & pasting.
Comment from: justme
You’ve got to be kidding me…
Do you have a clue as to what you’re discussing?
DD Dropout,
I beg to differ. I actually was raised a Catholic, was an altar boy, went to Catechism class, got confirmed, etc. etc. and STILL wasn’t a Christian! Of course, I didn’t know this until I was well into my high school years.
My point? While it’s true that people who are raised in religious households tend to be “religious” and recite everything they’ve learned, it doesn’t mean that they have accepted salvation as promised by God in the new testament. It doesn’t mean they have become believers in Jesus, which is a voluntary act, a decision you have to make.
Conversely, look at the example of Paul in the Bible. He was one of the most virulent persecuters of Christians before God took away his sight on the road that fateful day. There are many other examples as well.
All I’m asking is that you and others here refrain from judging Christianity by using religion as a yardstick! The Bible has a lot to say about the religious as well and it’s not a ringing endorsement. In fact, religion being the creation of man is condemned in the Bible.
So make sure you understand the terms you use in the debate:
RELIGION = Man’s attempt to reach God
CHRISTIANITY = God reaches Man; man accepts
DD Dropout,
To your second post.
None of the examples you cited are examples of what Christianity is responsible for.
I’m not going over them point by point, but I think it would serve you better to really do more research on what Christianity really is and all the things that flow from it.
Of course, Christians are Humans just like you. We aren’t perfect and we make mistakes. You wouldn’t want me to judge Atheism by what certain individuals who happen to be Atheists do, would you?
I have detected a common thread here concerning “critical thinking.” It seems that some of you think that critical thinking is not compatible with Christianity, or if you will – religion. Not so.
I’m not sure why some of you think ctitical thinking leads to discounting the possibility of the existence of God. Just the opposite is true. The more you come to understand things, the more you come to question the conventional thinking concerning the origins of man, as just one example.
Perhaps some of you are confused about what critical thinking skills are in the first place. Care to enlighten me?
Atheon,
“Is there such a monster as a pregnant virgin?”
Careful there, buddy.
If these bible classes are so “innocuous” then why is it that all the fundamentalists are so adamantly for them? Perhaps because they want to use the resources of the state and the coercive power of compulsory education to spread their religion. Putting a preacher in charge of such a class would amount to forced brainwashing by the state. At some point, even literary bible classes would be escalated to the point of having preachers involved. People on both sides of the issue know that.
As far as the conspiracy theories about Islam being preached in public schools, I have to ask which right-wing, no-references-provided, rumor-has-it, create-moral-panic radio host did you hear that from? Or was it another shadowy chain email campaign? All snopes.com mentions about this urban legend is that in the context of a world history class, Islam was described alongside other religions (yes, including Christianity) as an influence on history. That they certainly were! Should history majors in college be forced to ignore Islam?
Children SHOULD learn about religion in the context of history. Then they’d learn about how many people died in wars, over and over again throughout the ages in in all regions of the world, fought over who had the better imaginary friend or how to worship that imaginary friend. How many humans died over the allowability of icons, the infallibility of the pope, or to seize some “holy land” for their god? If they could see how the innocent-sounding tenets of ANY religion have eventually and inevitably lead people to commit horrible acts, they would be much better educated.
Whether or not they understand Shakespeare’s metaphors is far less important than being aware of what happens when occult thoughts take control of cultures. Hundreds of thousands of people die. Some dictator who “speaks for God” takes control. That’s what happens.
Tiny Tim-MAY
Careful? With what? Degrading one of your favorite myths? Suck it pregnant monster virgins!
pregnant monster virgins -> pregnant virgin monsters
Tiny
Tiny
Build models and then test them for predictive power. Throw out the ones without predictive power. Simple enough pinhead?
Chris B,
The beginning of your post changed ever so slightly yields thus:
“If these Koran classes are so “innocuous” then why is it that all the Islamists are so adamantly for them? Perhaps because they want to use the resources of the state and the coercive power of compulsory education to spread their religion.”
I’m surprised you would ask about sources for information that’s all over the place. Where do you get your information?
Can you Google?
Chris B,
I had to laugh just a little when you mentioned Snopes.com simply because I use it all the time.
There’s only one problem. The reason Snopes is silent concerning Islam being taught in schools is due to the fact that it really is! To varying degrees, of course, but I dare say that if Christians attempted what these Islamists are getting away with, they would be hauled into court by the ACLU in a heartbeat.
Don’t you see the hypocrisy? Please don’t engage in it yourself.
Chris B,
O.K., here’s just one example I excerpted for you:
“Requiring seventh-grade students to pretend they’re Muslims, wear Islamic garb, memorize verses from the Quran, pray to Allah and even to play “jihad games” in California public schools has been legally upheld by a federal judge, who has dismissed a highly publicized lawsuit brought by several Christian students and their parents.
As WND reported in July of last year, the suit was filed by the Thomas More Law Center against the Byron Union School District and various school officials to stop the use of the “Islam simulation” materials and methods used in the Excelsior Elementary School in Byron, Calif.
In her 22-page ruling announced Wednesday, U.S. District Judge Phyllis Hamilton said Excelsior is not indoctrinating students about Islam when it requires them to adopt Muslim names and pray to Allah as part of a history and geography class, but rather is just teaching them about the Muslim religion. “
WND is WorldNetDaily and the date on the article is December 13, 2003.
Well of course you don’t understand. If you looked at all the religious explanations with a critical eye you would be an atheist.
Critical thinking involves the use of reason and logic.
The religious community abhors reason.
You believe in supernatural beings and occurrences.
Reason is your enemy.
Chris B,
WND not good enough? How about this from USA Today:
“Some public schools and universities are granting Muslim requests for prayer times, prayer rooms and ritual foot baths, prompting a debate on whether Islam is being given preferential treatment over other religions.
The University of Michigan at Dearborn is planning to build foot baths for Muslim students who wash their feet before prayer. An elementary school in San Diego created an extra recess period for Muslim pupils to pray.
At George Mason University in Fairfax, Va., Muslim students using a “meditation space” laid out Muslim prayer rugs and separated men and women in accordance with their Islamic beliefs.
Critics see a double standard and an organized attempt to push public conformance with Islamic law…”
by Oren Dorell, USA Today 7/25/2007
Chris B,
What I’ve shared so far is merely the TIP of the iceberg! The stuff the Islamists have gotten into elementary school textbooks and class materials is nothing short of blatant indoctrination, Soviet style.
It is absolutely horrendous, but NO! You folks are worried about Bible as literature classes!
I see society standing on a slippery slope, desparately trying to keep it’s footing. They don’t know how to treat muslims, because they know they are not all terrorists, and must avoid litigation involving religious persecustion or racial profiling.
I may be wrong, or arrogant, but it seems to me, again, that most of you are missing the broader picture.
When modern man acquired the inteligence to ask the question, “why”, it seems the first question he asked is “why am I here”, and of course immediately stepped in those who would, for a substantial fee, share their supernatual understanding of who the creator is and what he expects of us and what the future holds, but, above all, redemption from all your mistakes and unending life in a world where pain and suffering don’t exist.
As a species we are INFECTED by a psychological symbiote that treats our nagging survival instinct, our fear of death. We have the same fakers and holy men with us that our ancestors had when they followed the herds of mastadons and bison accross the continents. They will continue to tell us that storms, desease, and droughts occur because we displeased the creator.
I have known very educated and inteligent people who still buy in to this crap, but I think it is not their fault. There is just that one black room in their mind where they are incapable of opening the door and looking inside, the room where their life ends forever. So they spend their studies searching for reasons to believe rather than searching their beliefs to determine if they have merit.
But, the important point is we, as a species are infected, and debating how we might curtail a small portion of the brainwash by banning it from school is like bringing down gas prices by buying a Prius. Surfboard in a hurricane. Why not use it as a force for good by giving equal time to the Bible and science. Moses’s god, the supposed creator of the earth, never knew about the dinosaurs, he didn’t know the earth revolved around the sun, and the moon around the earth. He didn’t know that stripe of stars across the sky was our view of our galaxy, of which there a billions. I have no fear of debate, but, many of the posts above smell of fear. Truth is the second most powerful weapon behind brainwash, and I would love to see the issue brought headon to forum, the younger the better.
NeoWolfe
O.K., please provide an exact definition of a “psychological symbiote.”
Secondly, if we are somehow “infected” by this thing you claim exists, then explain the mechanism by which the infection occurs.
If you want me (and presumably others) to follow your line of reasoning, then there has to be some basis for it.
Right now, it just reads like something from a transhumanist blog.
NotSoFast,
Thanks for the information! I will test it out in an older thread so I want litter any active threads.
Thanks again!
Tim,
You said:It is absolutely horrendous, but NO! You folks are worried about Bible as literature classes!
I say: We are not worried about the Bible ONLY. We are worried about ANY mythological text infiltrating the school system posing as a legitimate authority for science, history, social or moral law.
Tim,
You said:
So make sure you understand the terms you use in the debate:
RELIGION = Man’s attempt to reach God
CHRISTIANITY = God reaches Man; man accepts
I’m confused… Where did you get your definitions? The Bible?
Webster’s defines religion and Christianity as follows:
Christianity:
1 : the religion derived from Jesus Christ, based on the Bible as sacred scripture, and professed by Eastern, Roman Catholic, and Protestant bodies
2 : conformity to the Christian religion
3 : the practice of Christianity
Religion:
1 a: the state of a religious b (1): the service and worship of God or the supernatural (2): commitment or devotion to religious faith or observance
2: a personal set or institutionalized system of religious attitudes, beliefs, and practices
3archaic : scrupulous conformity : conscientiousness
4: a cause, principle, or system of beliefs held to with ardor and faith
When should we apply your definition as opposed to Websters?
Establishing a common language is CRITICAL to communication. Establishing a common meaning for words used in a language is as equally important.
Please advise…
Let’s also remember that public schools, especially here in Texas already had a host of state/church violations going for them, in the form of religion intruding.
Last year’s Texas “Religious Expression” LAW opens the floodgates of religious abuse of all kinds. I predict more “Self-Induced Religious Fits.”
Of course there’s also the Pledge of Allegiance which is essentially a prayer, and the moment of silence which is essentially a prayer. My old public high school, Katy High School still has prayers over the intercom, every single class day. They used to call it “solemnization.” Now they don’t bother mentioning that catch-phrase they invented in order to shove that prayer into the public school system there. They just close their eyes and broadcast the prayer.
The list goes on…
Tim,
I and virtually all atheists I’ve spoken to would be equally opposed to using public schools to sell ANY religion. Whether it’s Methodist Christian, Sunni Muslim, Mormon, or Scientology doesn’t matter – it’s an obvious attempt to use the coercive power of the state to recruit kids for that religion. It would be equally wrong to indoctrinate kids according to some state-mandated ideology, as in the Nazi Youth. Just teach the facts, and keep the salespeople, crackpots, and cult recruiters out.
If you really believe that there is a movement afoot by US Muslims (0.5% of the population) to take over schools in a country that is overwhelmingly Christian (76+% of the population) then you’ve probably been getting your info from chain emails, AM radio, and tabloids such as WorldNetDaily. People who believe such things regularly mention these as their sources. How exactly did they persuade you that this was likely to occur? Furthermore, how would this distraction tactic ever support the argument that your religion should be forced upon other people’s children in schools? It seems far more likely to me that Christians (76%), not Muslims (0.5%), are the ones trying to force schools to preach their religion to other people’s kids.
That said, if a kid graduates from high school and does not know what Christians, Muslims, Hindus, and Buddists believe, then we have failed to educate them. They should also know what the Egyptians, Greeks, Romans, etc. believed. Those are political and historical facts that should be taught in political science and history classes. This is far different from a class, taught , or should I say preached, by an adherent to a religion, about only that religion.
I suspect that adherents to all religions would love to establish such indoctrination classes for other people’s children, but this particular conspiracy theory about Muslims (0.5%) is just not plausible. It doesn’t pass the critical thinking test. It does however motivate people who have accepted extremist ideology and isolated their information sources to a few extremist sources. I wonder how it feels to make this stuff up, knowing that millions of people will instantly believe it.
Chris B,
Well, I tried. You obviously have a reading and/or comprehension problem. The fact that I pointed you to other sources seems totally lost on you.
What don’t you start at the genesis of the recent influx of Islamic teachings. Namely Bill Clinton’s federal education guidelines he so carefully negotiated with known Islamic terrorist sympathizers posing as scholars. It’s all there in the federal records, but then again if you don’t keep your mind open I’m just wasting my precious time.
Finally, if you and other Atheists really believe what you say, why do I never see anything but anti-Christian rantings posted here?