Don’t forget that tomorrow, July 4, is National A-Wear Day — the day to wear your Atheist shirts, hats, and jewelry in the most public setting possible, say, fireworks or a town parade. I personally recommend the T-shirt that says “Proud to Be an American Atheist”.
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karen:
Really? Then, how ?bout taking the same challenge I gave Obeah, and put your money where your mouth is by ?reasonably? refuting it, point-by-point?
Huh? How you got that idea is beyond me.
Why thank you, but if I?m so reasonable, why?d you call my post ?whacky??
JCC
I refuted your ignorance in my above post but as usual there is no response from you when your idiocy is laid bear. Is it a shock to you when others here take the only reasonable course of action in regards to your hit-and-run posts – mocking your willful ignorance?
rainbows4dinosaurs:
Maybe you didn?t notice the first two words in that link: ?The late Dr. M. King Hubbert?? I can?t believe I actually have to point this out?especially to such an enlightened segment of the population?clearly Dr. Hubbert?s prediction didn?t take into account advances in drilling technology (i.e. directional, MWD, etc.); enormous improvements in primary, secondary, and tertiary recovery methods and the tremendous benefit of software in driving the exploration paradigm shift from a stochastic to a strategic model; nor did he take into consideration the possibility or magnitude of such finds as Chevron?s deep water Gulf, the now recoverable fields like the Bakken formation in North Dakota, the oil shales of Colorado, Utah and Wyoming?not to mention the potential of ANWR (oh, and don?t forget Petrobras? enormous find in the Santos basin?that makes Saudi Arabia look small).
So, with that in mind, do you still want to argue that our supply isn?t artificially suppressed by environmentalists?
Ha! Absolutely! I?d be laughing (at you) all the way to the bank!
rainbows4dinosaurs:
Ooops, almost overlooked this piece of low-hanging fruit:
Well, maybe that?s because true, conservative principles haven?t been consistently applied by this administration?
Geeze, rainbows, those last two posts just weren?t quite there for you. Sounds like you maybe startin? to lose it.
jcc,
We can dig ourselves into oblivion, but it’s still going to run out. All those brilliant technologies you’ve listed only prove two things: That it is getting harder and harder to find the stuff, and that we make a bigger mess of things each time we start drilling. Maybe you like the mess – most folks don’t.
‘Ha’ indeed. I would say you’re more likely to be coughing and hacking on the way to your bank. Good luck with that though.
Anyway, here are a couple technologies that I personally find a lot more interesting than your fantastic earth-raping machines:
1) Cellulosic ethanol
Regular ethanol is of course created with corn, which of course has been driving up food costs and is therefore not a viable solution. But one good thing current ethanol production has done is create the infrastructure necessary to begin adopting cellulosic ethanol which is made from the leaves, stems, and stalks of plants. Basically all the shit that we ‘environmentalists wackos’ throw into our compost piles. In fact, the current estimate is that about two thirds of what we toss into our landfills contains cellulose that could be converted into fuel.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cellulosic_ethanol
2) Genetically engineered, wasting eating, crude oil pooping bacteria
That’s right – scientists have created bacteria that secrete actual crude oil. Turns out their normal waste is only a few fatty acids away from the black stuff. So with a few tweaks to the dna of the critters we’ve ended up with a potential solution that will not only fit right into our current infrastructure but is also carbon neutral, as the bacteria breath in the same amount of CO2 that they poop out as oil.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/environment/article4133668.ece
jcc
Nice crappy-ass excuse. When exactly in history have these ‘true’ conservative principles been employed so that we might see an example of conservatism’s absolute perfection? Let me guess, you’re going to site Reagan. The eighties… (shudder).
Does this mean you’ve actually liked some of my posts in the past? Gee, I never knew.
rainbows4dinosaurs:
And that provincial mindset is quite consistent with the gloom-and-doom atheist world view. But for those of us who recognize the hope that has been given us, there are other theories on the origin of petroleum?and therefore the amount of future supply: http://tinyurl.com/6cm8ek
Help me out here? how does ?all those brilliant technologies??that are, as I demonstrated, increasing our find and recovery capabilities??prove? that the stuff is ?getting harder to find?? If I say the sun is shining, do you take that to mean it?s dark?
This is surreal. Drilling now is safer and cleaner than ever before, and it has a continuingly shrinking environmental footprint. Besides, if oil spills are so ?icky? and happen only because we greedy humans cause them, then why isn?t anyone concerned about all those from natural seeps? http://tinyurl.com/5zgnf5 I believe in the Gulf of Mexico alone, the amount seeped naturally every year is enough to fill a small tanker.
Maybe you should learn a little more about the subject.
No problem. But since you think it?s so bad, I just won?t sell any product to you.
Oh dear. Did ya not read this part?:
And can you tell me exactly that the net energy derived from Cellulosic (or corn derived) ethanol is compared to what is required to produce it??and how that compares to the same volume of petroleum pumped from the crust?
Again, I?d like to know what the net energy derived from that source is compared to the same about of ?conventional? petroleum.
Seems as much as you wackos would like to hope otherwise, life, as we know it, would be incredibly miserable without petroleum in it.
Jcc,
But I thought you were the one who believed the apocalypse was coming? The reality is your Jeebus won’t replenish oil. It’s a finite resource. It will most certainly run out.
Sheesh you’re being obtuse. The reason those technologies are were developed is because oil is getting more and more difficult to locate and more and more difficult to extract. I’ll point to your “Chevron?s deep water Gulf” as a perfect example.
WTF? You’re right, we should be allowed to spill as much oil as we like ? because it happens naturally. Only a true fundie could see the logic in that. Why stop there? Should we be allowed to dump as much hydrogen sulfide, ammonia and sulfur into our rivers and streams because it happens naturally in Yellowstone? You’ve got to be kidding. We can do something about our own mess, there’s little we can do about that which occurs naturally.
Again, brilliant insight. Spoken like someone truly concerned with America’s dependence on foreign oil.
jcc
if i were an oil executive i would be sending thank you notes and free gas to all the “environmental wackos” that some of the trolls speak of. not only are these “wackos” being made into one of the primary scapegoats for high fuel prices, but the oil companies can use them as a diversion for expanding domestic crude production.
in reality, any smart oil executive realizes that the longer the crude stays in the ground, the more valuable it becomes. so what’s the hurry on their part to tap it? as long as OPEC keeps pumping and exporting just enough to keep everyone solvent, our own crude can be saved for later and at higher prices. the oil companies are perfectly happy with this arrangement and we Americans should be also.
would you rather have some domestic oil reserves left in 50 years or be sucked dry and TOTALLY dependent on foreign oil like Japan is, for example?
most Americans can cut there total energy usage by at least 25% and be better off for it. so don’t look to big daddy government or big daddy in the sky for help. be creative and innovative yourself to reduce personal energy waste. that’s the short term ticket to the “energy crisis” and it costs NOTHING.
jcc
My worldview isn’t about doom and gloom – it is about responsibility. Why are you so willing to abdicate your responsibility to this planet and its inhabitants? Surely Jesus would disapprove of your laissez faire (and seemingly greedy) attitude toward the state of things.
It is interesting to me that you would start off your post with a statement about hope and then proceed to poo poo my own hopes. I guess it has something to do with you hoping to be able to ‘laugh (at me) all the way to the bank’ while I’m hoping my kids will be able to inherit a sustainable future. Or perhaps you just mean that it’s all already decided and we have no role to play except go to church and vote republican.
Ah yes, abiogenic petroleum – the Earth just makes it! All the time! Glory Be To God, we’ll never run out of plastic bottles and urban tumbleweeds! Let me ask you this: if abiogenic hydrocarbon production is such a viable theory, then why the heck do we need all these new methods for oil exploration? Why don’t those old fields in Texas just fill back up again? Why would we ever need to go to ANWR?
Thanks to us ‘environmental wackos’. It is still, however, invasive and damaging, and it will always be. That is unavoidable.
If CO2 is a problem, then how come you don’t fall down dead after breathing it? I’ve actually had someone ask me that question – yours comes in a close second.
Those technologies are increasing our ability to find that which is becoming hard to find. Again, if oil is plentiful, why do we keep having to drill deeper and deeper in increasingly exotic locations?
I didn’t even know that it was possible to buy oil wholesale. Anyway, I bike commute, recycle/re-use, and bring my own bags to the grocery store, so I’m not so sure that I’d be your target market.
I don’t know about exactly, but I can oblige you somewhat. From wired magazine:
http://www.wired.com/cars/energy/news/2008/01/ethanol23
Too soon to tell whether they’ll be able to mass produce bacterial poop oil, but you’ve got to admit it’s a pretty awesome idea.
Well, since we’re back to calling each other names, it seems that obnoxious fucktards like yourself would rather continue to dig us all into oblivion than take some responsibility, admit your own ideological failings, and adapt to a rapidly changing situation in a manner that is positive for everyone.
One way or another though, time will prove us wackos right all along.
DVanWechel:
Uh yeah, but if it happens in my lifetime (and according to the data available) I?m almost certain it won?t be because we ?ran out? of oil.
Hmmm, my ?aura? must inhibit atheists from reading and comprehending all the data I include in my posts. Maybe if I set it off by itself:
http://tinyurl.com/6cm8ek
Oh, and the advent of computers had absolutely nothing to do with the development of those technologies either?
Huh??whul, what about the Bakken formation and the oil shales??those were discovered decades ago but couldn?t be exploited until computer technology finally provided the means. Sheesh, and I?m considered ?obtuse??
Uh, how ?bout, ?it ain?t nearly as bad as you wackos make it out to be?? If you get some time, look into what shape the east coast was in during the Second World War when German U-boats continually torpedoed tankers off our coast. Did it do permanent damage?
And only a true atheist can be so fooled by dilettante peddler?s of junk science like Al Gore.
Pssssst, here?s a little tip for you; the environment in America is cleaner now than it was when Jimmy Carter (the last messiah) was in office?and you can thank ?big oil? for doing more than it was required to do to get the gas you burn in your car to you as safely and cleanly as it was.
Sigh, didn?t this whole argument begin with my lamenting why we?re so dependent on foreign sources? Again, I?m the one considered ?obtuse??
Six years of total control of the federal government by the GOP and the consequent catastrophe of that control was apparently not enough for our resident town fool. Just give me more time, more money, more support, more more more. This is plaintive wail of every failure that has ever walked this earth.
Word.
JCC
Do you have any idea how stupid and pathetic you appear by coming here and regurgitating what you happen to hear daily on Rush “Drugy” Limbaugh’s show.
karen:
Then if you?re not willing to defend your assertions, perhaps you should refrain from making them.
The one that spanders and I ?play on the same team.?
?Guidelines? have nothing to do with the fact that we believe in totally different things.
Yes, you?re right. spanders gets under my skin precisely because he appears to go out of his way to be so clich?d. Sorry, but what you see as his being ?reasonable? I see as either deliberate na?vet? or calculated, liberal, feel-good, sophistry.
jcc
That wasn’t so much an assertion as an offhand remark in a comment to a comment about a comment. But point taken.
Yet, you’re both Christians. Go figure.
Or maybe it just pisses you off that he’s more adept at not letting others get under his skin. Maybe it pisses you off that his way to find peace with understanding is working better for him than yours is for you, when you are so sure that yours is the only “right” way.
KA,
Oh, I see… it’s just your opinion that Fox news is a “laughingstock.”
People do not watch Fox news for the same reason they watch American Idol!
So how about Bathtub Boy over there at the Obama network? I guess you think he provides better facts and information than the anchors at Fox News? G.M.A.F’ing Break.
Get real.
Tim:
No – it is.
I have no clue about what you’re blithering about.
I don’t speak deranged.
rainbows4dinosaurs:
When and where did I ever say anything like that?
Greedy attitude? Why is wanting to be able to freely consume a resource as it was clearly intended to be used ?greedy??
Sorry if I came across as delighting in pointing out the impracticalities of your hopes. I?m as frustrated by the artificially inflated price of oil as anyone and it doesn?t take much for me to loose patience with those who are hostile to our using petroleum as it was meant to be used.
Hey, I have kids too, remember? You think I want them to have to unnecessarily accept a lower standard of living because of the flawed notion that humans can somehow alter the global climate? By the way, even the late George Carlin (hero to many atheists) felt the same way:
http://tinyurl.com/5afjzf
Yeah, that?s the ticket.
Well, because we?ve drained all the easily accessible resivoirs.
I suppose if the tectonic conditions that formed them in the first place were to remain stable, who knows?, maybe they will in a couple million years.
?Cause we need what?s there now?
Uh, because that?s where the huge, fun-to-find reservoirs are?
But how does that compare to the same amount of petroleum?
I agree.
Now that?s the ol? rainbows I?m used to. After getting hammered with a few facts, it didn?t take ya long to show that classy, mature side of yours.
What?s your favorite come-back? Oh yeah, ahem, ?believe and you will believe??
Good for it is said that once you do you are.
jcc:
Maybe your bigotry & ‘ole fashioned’ ways are blinding you to the reality of the situation.
Massive overconsumption on a global scale – mishandling of law & resources by the current administration – & yes, global warming IS a reality, it IS a problem. Our dependency on it is strangling this country, it’s forcing us into relationships w/all the wrong folk (just ask good ole Shrub-a-roo, who’s in bed w/the KSA).
But of course, atheists are wrong about everything. You shouldn’t let your biases blind you.
What sort of legacy does this leave your children? You, who talks about unconditional love? Do you wish to leave them a world uninhabitable? Where survival is determined by a strong set of lungs, where breathing becomes a recreation instead of a thing we take for granted?
You will say pish-posh to all of this, dismiss it @ your leisure.
Will your children be able to do the same?
jcc
Oh yeah! I forgot about that belief of yours – the fact that oil can be turned into gas to be used in cars is some weird proof of intelligent design, which is why you can’t believe in global warming (or even pollution, apparently) because that would make the designer less intelligent. Brilliant. You get the Tin Foil Hat Award of the thread.
First of all, I’m not for lowering anyone’s standard of living. Quite the opposite. Please note that the solutions I sited take advantage of our current infrastructure. But even with completely alternative solutions like wind and solar there is plenty of money to be made and lots of potential for economic growth.
Second, I have to say that if I did believe in God I would thank him everyday that this notion that climate change is a ‘flawed notion’ has lost all political clout. In any case thank goodness!
You should take your kids to see WALL-E.
Well gee, if an atheist hero doesn’t believe in global warming then I better… oh wait, George Carlin wasn’t a scientist!!
We won’t get it now, and it wouldn’t make much difference anyway. The May report from the Energy Information Administration cites that even if we opened up the reserve tomorrow we wouldn’t see any product until 2018, and by 2030 ANWR production would only represent 0.4 and 1.2 of world oil production.
http://tinyurl.com/6r5hrx
Ha!! And you call that a renewable resource?
Lord. Hammered by facts? I’ll happily take both your facts and your ‘facts’ and answer them with my own arsenal of facts. I was responding to the name calling. And the snideness. Like I told Phreedm, you reap the responses you sow. I’ll admit it’s stupid tit-for-tat, and probably immature, but I’m really not interested in turning my cheek to you.
Here’s another one ya: Reality has already trumped your bullshit, and it really doesn’t matter too much that you’re too dense to see it.
KA,
I googled ‘Bathtub Boy’ and got Keith Olbermann. Personally, I have no idea how anyone can stand more than ten seconds of any cable news, period. Just a bunch of folks yelling overtop the goofy ‘whoosh’ sounds as the shiny graphics annoyingly pop in and out.
Arguing with JCC about global warming is like arguing with Phillip Morse about tobacco-induced cancer. Even when millions are in their graves due to their greed they argue on … and on.
How many of the “deadly sins” does JCC display with respect to his love of oil alone?
Thanks for graciously accepting my plea for time. I really do have a busy week. I have tons of research data to comb through to find your requested links. I don’t talk outta my ass. I’m a research hound. However, even my professors gave me time to compile a research review. ‘Spose I can’t expect the same courtesy from you.
I’m not an MD (thank goodness for that!), but I’ve been researching health and fitness for 25 years. That’s roughly 24 3/4 more years than an MD (my *MD told me that).
*Dr. Todd Jones from Greenville UPMC Medical Center in Greenville PA. I don’t have the quote on tape, but you’re welcome to write to him and ask.
Research review IP and pending.
I’m not trying to give anybody a hard time, just trying to share knowlege. I do know there is a difference between PTSD, depression related to childhood trauma, and the average “depressed person” (I even know the mechanism that is secondary to the former conditions), but these are not responsible for a good portion of the depression-medicated masses.
Link pending.
karen:
I really don?t think that?s the case?except for me and a couple others, he?s in pretty good company here.
Do you think for a minute that he?s genuinely interested in understanding me??just re-read what he wrote about Bush and tell me that really sounds like he?s interested in ?understanding? him.
r4d:
Wasn’t sure I wanted to waste my time on it, so I did as well.
Gibson’s something of a loon, which is why Tim-MAY idolizes the clown.
Hey, I don’t watch any of that dreck. Most of the visual news media is a joke anyways.
& a laughingstock among the jokes is a laugh track wrapped around a giggle.
Krys:
Yes?and so is global cooling.it IS a problem.Only if you believe global climate is a static system.
Because of the choke-hold the environmentalists have on our government.
No, and the consumption of hydrocarbons won?t result in that. However, I do wish to leave them with a standard of living higher than mine.
Like so many, your thinking seems to be stuck in the Carter administration?America is cleaner now.
rainbows4dinosaurs:
Hmmm, so is that why 66% of the American electorate is in favor of opening up domestic drilling?
Been there, done that. By the way, Andrew Stanton is an unapologetic Christian?and according to him, the underlying theme of the movie wasn?t an environmental one; it was one of unconditional love and the responsibilities of stewardship that go along with that love.
Uh huh? well obviously it ain?t rocket science if someone like Carlin could see it for what it is.
Well, gee maybe if we?d opened it up in ?96 it?d be on line by now? And how can anyone accurately guesstimate the potential without actually having drilled at least one test well?.. Oh, but I?m too dense to understand all that?
jcc
The poll I’ve seen has it just under 60%, but point taken and I can understand that. What I’m saying is the same thing even many drilling proponents are saying – that we can’t just drill our way out of this situation. About the same amount of Americans favor tougher fuel economy standards for cars, and a slightly smaller majority favor an increased reliance on biofuels.
Interesting… so that’s where the whole Noah’s Ark undertone was coming from. Well, I have to say that his approach to Christianity is a lot more inviting than yours.
“I look at it this way… For centuries now, man has done everything he can to destroy, defile, and interfere with nature: clear-cutting forests, strip-mining mountains, poisoning the atmosphere, over-fishing the oceans, polluting the rivers and lakes, destroying wetlands and aquifers… so when nature strikes back, and smacks him on the head and kicks him in the nuts, I enjoy that. I have absolutely no sympathy for human beings whatsoever. None. And no matter what kind of problem humans are facing, whether it’s natural or man-made, I always hope it gets worse.” – George Carlin
I hope that was a joke.
Hmmm… good question. I thought (or suspected) that was your field. What about all those other sites you’ve talked about that are supposed to save us from high gas prices?
No, you’re too dense to understand Humanity’s impact on the Earth. Or maybe it’s not density. Maybe it’s that your stubbornness creates a willful ignorance. Either way, it makes you sound like a crazy person.
Relax everyone. The market and our finite resources will make the religious insanity disappear. The world simply can not afford religion any longer.
Cry4
I’m waiting for you to give me the cure to a single disease that MDs are not allowed to learn about. Just one. You should be able to give me that much right away since you have said it was true already.
Yet you don’t know the difference between reactive depression and clinical depression. You seem to think that a MD’s education stops when they exit medical school. Do you even know what an MD is? Holy crap!
jcc:
Ummm?who on earth ever said that?
Just because some areas are noticeably cooler, doesn?t negate global warming, you know? You do know that, right?
Choke-hold? Are you kidding me? The Bush administration has the record as the least environmentally conscious administration ever.
You do realize, I hope, that breathing carbon dioxide can, under circumstances, be hazardous to your health? http://members.aol.com/hydratwo/co2.htm – that?s just the 1st google I found.
Oh, yes, as evidenced by the spate of spare the air days ? or are you going to holler ?conspiracy!? yet again?
JCC’s argument
Yes Mrs Smith your husband did die from Chronic Obstructive Pulmonary Disease and consequent Congestive Heart Failure due to years of smoking but hey look we cleaned him up a bit for ya.
I’m not going to add much here, looks like this thread has about run its course. I do think often the nogodblog has devolved into debating christians over the economics the christian world has fostered. This will accomplish little.
Organized religion has led humanity down a dead end, no doubt. That should be the topic. The confused christians continually refuse to discuss their religion, the foundation of their reality. They are afraid/enraged their ideology is running out of gas and I will drill them in the future.
As an atheist blog I think it is important we dismantle the bible because that is all the christians have to stand on. When it falls, so do they. The bad book is trash.
Whether global warming is strictly a natural recurrent cycle or whether human activity is a contributing factor is not the issue. What is important is the fact the lunatics in Washington want to deny it is even happening and are doing nothing to address the environmental disruptions of either scenario.
Infinite economic growth on a finite planet is impossible. Christians can’t comprehend that because they have their eyes fixed on the pie in the sky.
You christians are ridiculous for trying to act like keepers of the wisdom. Drag out some passages from your bad book that reinforce your mental framework and we’ll all see how your mental illness functions. You need definitions of what is obvious. You can’t grasp a reality someone else hasn’t handed you. There is a thick coat of oil on your lenses and you can’t see clearly.
Phreedm, a few weeks ago there was a post from someone that the land of Nod was in Latvia. You came back and said no it wasn’t and let it go at that. If you know the land of Nod was not in Latvia, why don’t you tell us all where it was? Maybe if some of you christians could clarify biblical reality for us non-believers we could all have a jubilee.
What, OK, here you go—
Causes of heart disease:
http://www.framinghamheartstudy.org/about/milestones.html
http://www.lef.org/magazine/mag2001/jan2001_awsi.html
http://www.drweil.com/drw/u/id/QAA366280
Cures for heart disease:
http://www.webmd.com/content/pages/7/3068_10065.htm
http://www.hsibaltimore.com/ealerts/ea200705/ea20070522b.html
http://www.hsibaltimore.com/ealerts/ea200108/ea20010823.html
Conventional Medicine?s ?cure?:
http://www.newsmax.com/health/statin_snarl_scientists/2008/07/11/111958.html?s=al&promo_code=65D5-1
“Lipid Screening and Cardiovascular Health in Childhood” Pediatrics, Vol. 122, No. 1, July 2008, aappolicy.aappublications.org
Oh yeah-and don?t forget surgery. What fun!!!
I don?t know why you accused me of not knowing the difference between two kinds of depression.
?The symptom picture for a reactive depression is similar to other depressive disorders, and the recommended treatment is still cognitive-behavioral therapy and/or interpersonal therapy.?- http://drdonaldfranklin.com/psychotherapy/reactive_depression.html
Hmn-no meds mentioned. Also, as I said before, I?m familiar with the adrenaline-enhanced memory involved in PTSD and I can understand depression related to abuse, but?
According to psychiatrist Dr. Douglas Bremner, head of the clinical neuroscience research unit at Atlanta’s Emory University, “The bottom line is that antidepressants don’t work as well as people think.” And yet, this hasn’t stopped Bremner and doctors like him from prescribing them to patients. “I prescribe antidepressants because sometimes they are better than nothing, but they are not a magic cure-all. And they are overused,” he said.
And?
Charles Barber, the author of the new book, Comfortably Numb: How Psychiatry is Medicating a Nation, is getting the word out about the overuse of antidepressants. “There is a confusion between major clinical depression, which is clearly a biological illness where medication is appropriate, and being depressed,” Barber says. “Life’s problems, or having a feeling of sadness or dislocation, have been medicalized.”
And check this out?
http://www.douglassreport.com/dailydose/dd200706/dd20070604a.html
DIet and depression:
http://www.depression-guide.com/depression.htm
http://depression.about.com/cs/diet/a/vitamin.htm
If anyone thinks eating processed junk food doesn?t affect psychological health, you really should think again. Look up Dr. Russell Blaylock?s work about MSG and artificial sweeteners (yeah, he?s an MD, eek!).
About the impeccable integrity of MD?s:
“Researchers Fail to Reveal Full Drug Pay” Gardiner Harris and Benedict Carey, The New York Times, 6/8/08, nytimes.com
“Misguided Standards of Care” Dr. Lawrence Diller, The Boston Globe, 6/19/07, boston.com
“The Medicated Child” Marcela Gaviria, Frontline, 2008, pbs.org
“Impugning the Integrity of Medical Science” Journal of the American Medical Association, Vol. 299, No. 15, 4/16/08, jama.ama-assn.org
“Key V_ioxx Research Was Written by Merck, Documents Allege” Amanda Gardner, HealthDay News, 4/15/08, washingtonpost.com
http://www.sott.net/articles/show/158519-Little-or-No-Evidence-Supports-Conventional-Medical-Treatments
This is how MD?s feel about me (Heehee):
http://www.cnn.com/2008/HEALTH/01/23/ep.obnoxious/index.html
The success of big pharma!:
“Study: Over Half of Americans on chronic Medicines” Linda A. Johnson, Associated Press, 5/13/08, ap.org
New Yorker cartoon by Farley Katz, 5/12/08, newyorker.com
“Fosamax Linked to Unusual Femur Fractures” HealthDay News, 3/19/08, nlm.nih.gov
“AP probe finds drugs in drinking water,” The Associated Press, 3/9/08
“FDA deadlines may impact drug safety,” The Washington Post (www.washingtonpost.com), 3/26/08
Why I?m always prompted to read between the lines:
“U.S. reporters often do a poor job of reporting about new medical treatments, analysis finds,” Science Daily (www.sciencedaily.com), 5/29/08
“How do US journalists cover treatments, tests, products, and procedures? An evaluation of 500 stories,” PLoS Medicine 2008; 5(5): e95
This is just a drop in the bucket for me. There were numerous articles I could not relocate (like the horror story I read from an MD in training, who was constantly chastised for questioning conventional treatments).
Those who possess the enlightenment to question religion yet seem to have total faith in their MD?s no questions asked, are a mystery to me. Modern medicine is motivated by greed (no different than religion), and many good MD?s are swept away by a ridiculous loyalty to the AMA (please take time to study their history and the role of the Rockefellers, esp. in relation to cancer treatments). I know MDs are just PEOPLE WITH DEGREES. No smarter or more special than me, like editors
In conclusion:
“If people let the government decide what foods they eat and what medicines they take, their bodies will soon be in as sorry a state as the souls who live under tyranny.”
- Thomas Jefferson
Cry4
Asked you for one – just one – cure for any disease that MD’s don’t know about – ie evidence of your above claim. So give me one and just one because I am not about to go through all of your links above and try to make your case for you.
OK…
http://www.webmd.com/content/pages/7/3068_10065.htm
Cry4
What about it? Make a point would you. In particular defend your statement that there is cure for a disease that MD’s don’t know about.
Cry4turtles
My cardiologist is into those things mentioned in the article-well, I dunno about the yoga, specifically. But the diet, exercise, and stress management are all part of his wellness plan, plus he has his own product line of supplements like the Omega 3, etc.
In September 2002 I had the privilege of dining with approximately 20 senior citizens whose heart disease was cured (yes cured) by following the Dr. Dean Ornish plan (the one mentioned on the site you obviously neglected to investigate). One fellow was 73 years old and had just conquered a mountain he’d wanted to climb years before his heart disease diagnosis. One woman was from the Netherlands and flew over just to participate in the study.
In the past six months both my brother and father-in-law had open-heart surgery. Neither was told about Dr. Ornish?s method. Either their doctors didn?t know (we?re talking cardiologists here), or neglected to mention an alternative method. Of course there?s no money in patients curing themselves through diet. Perhaps the good doctors are painfully aware of that?
The kicker was this–the day after my father-in-law?s surgery, while still in the hospital, they served him pork tenderloin with mashed potatoes and gravy with processed fruit swimming in high fructose corn syrup! This type of menu was what put him there in the first place. I couldn?t even stand to watch him eat it.
My brother has finally opened his eyes. He?s completely overhauled his diet with fresh fruits and veggies. We now enjoy eating black raspberries and raw summer squash together. He has no intention of ever going back. He is curing his own disease, w/o any help from MDs.
Karen, I apologize if I said anything to offend you (about depression). I cherish your posts and have a great deal of respect for you, but I’m not kidding about diet and depression. It can only help you to investigate it further. And remember, supplements can only do so much (if anything). Nothing can replace what you can get from nature. I’d be happy to share more of my research with you on a private basis. Just let me know and I’ll give you my email address.
cry4turtles
No apology necessary. I wasn’t offended. I do try to eat a lot of raw fruits and veggies. Though not so much raw on the veggies part. I practically went through withdrawal when I couldn’t get tomatoes because of the salmonella scare a couple weeks ago. But I eat processed foods as well. Gravy? Maybe twice a year.
My heart is OK, except for a leaky valve, which apparently is no big deal-just something to keep an eye on. The main thing is, I gotta get my fat ass away from this computer and exercise more!
But I wouldn’t mind perusing your info on diet and depression-and getting to know you better through email.
Cry4
The way you argue is maddening. Just a few weeks ago you were telling us (wrongly and grotesquely so) me that cholesterol was not the main dietary culprit in heart disease and now you are going on about the Ornish Diet which is all about reducing LDL cholesterol and increasing HDL cholesterol. Furthermore your claim that physicians somehow don’t know about Dean Ornish’s work is bizarre. His work has been published in Lancet – just some little overlooked medical publication right?
On top of all this there is the science. The science says that the reduction in coronary artery disease due to the diet was small but statistically significant. Nobody was cured of the disease.
Lastly and most importantly. The most important thing an individual can do to limit the progression of coronary artery disease is to lower their LDL cholesterol and increase their HDL. The best way to do this is through a low cholesterol diet with vigorous exercise for 30 minutes daily. And this is what every doc in the USA – except maybe some religious nut job into faith healing and maybe even then – tells their patients.
I’m still waiting for that mystery cure … and waiting … and
What- the way you do not accept any answer that doesn’t fall in line with your opinion is maddening. I did tons of work to list research upon your request, but you refused to review it.
Why don’t they use it? Why didn’t my father-in-law or my brother get a heads up? Of course they both have excellent insurance, hmn… I don’t. I’m pretty sure the same cardiologists would never see me. That’s okay though, I have no need for them.
I stand by my assertion that cholesterol dosen’t cause heart disease, but is merely a symptom of it. This is what big pharma has capitalized on with their cash cow statins. Don’t change dietary practices, just take a pill.
And while I think the Ornish study did provide as close a “cure” for heart diesase as a scientific study using food has YET, I don’t totally agree with it. There’s too much soy involved. But what I did notice at our dinner in 2002–there was NO PROCESSED FOOD. Everything was cooked fresh (except prehaps the soy). Yeah, that’s going to impact cholesterol.
Too much of anything is not good, this includes cholesterol, iron, protein, even Vitamin E (unless from natural sources).
Look up Dr. Emanuel Revici (and all the politics involved). Of course that won’t satisfy you either.
Karen, drop me a line someday. It’s always excellent to get to know a fellow Steeler fan better. I’d love to let you know about my book. I think you and I may have more in common than what comes out in this blog:
peyote@alltel.net
Cry4
Really. All I saw was a bunch of links. Do you really think there is something there I haven’t seen before? Wrong.
Unless he saw a witch doctor he did get the heads up. Every doc will tell you to eat a low fat low cholesterol diet, get at least 30 minutes of vigorous exercise daily daily, and quit smoking. They don’t have to give it the name the Ornish Life Style Approach because Ornish is simply one highly visible advocate for and researcher of the “lifestyle” changes that every doc knows to be of huge benefit with respect to vessel disease.
That’s retarded. Look up the definition of the word symptom.
Docs all over the US on a daily basis tell there patients that are obese or not getting regular exercise to make the changes. How blue in the face do you think they should get? The fact is that people are lazy and usually will not make the changes even if their lives depended on it – it does.
There is no question that there is big money in big pharm and snake-oil alternative medicine. This why the FDA needs more money and power.
Like I said the reduction in vessel disease was small and could by no standard be called a cure. As I said before – kicking of this “discussion” between you and I – cures are rare in medicine. You mostly treat disease to ameliorate symptoms, prolong life and the quality of life.
You have failed in your attempt to provide a single cure of a single disease that is unknown to physicians at large.
Yeah, I’m just a godamn failure. Hey! There’s always suicide!