fromFrank R. Zindler, Acting PresidentAmerican Atheists, Inc.Charles E. Stevens American Atheist Library & Archives, Inc.Dear Ellen,I am writing to you in this open forum simply because it appears virtually impossible to communicate with you via certified mail or other normal channels. I am writing to appeal to your sense of honesty and your sense of what is best for the cause of Atheism. I am asking you to return to the Charles E. Stevens American Atheist Library & Archives (CESAALA) the diaries of Madalyn Murray O’Hair over which you have control. The diaries cover the period from the late 1950s, through the 1960s, into the early 1970s. Especially in need of return is the diary containing the entries for June of 1963, recording the period of the ruling in Murray v. Curlett. On a number of occasions you have told me and other members of the board and staff that you have these diaries in your possession, and so I would not expect you to dispute the facts of my request.As you know, the joint will of Madalyn Murray O’Hair, Jon Garth Murray, and Robin Eileen Murray-O’Hair specifies that all their personal property shall become the property of CESAALA upon their decease. As Acting President of CESAALA, it is my fiduciary duty to seek the return of property rightfully belonging to the corporation. I ask that the diaries be returned immediately, without further delay. I do not wish to insult you, but I must nevertheless remind you that many ? indeed, the vast majority ? of the people who are still supporting you and are sympathetic to your cause are men and women of great integrity as well as intelligence. Can you suppose that they would continue to support you if all the facts could be made to show that you are illegally in possession of CESAALA property ? precious reminders not only of our own organizational history but of the course of First-Amendment jurisprudence as well? I seriously doubt it. They are men and women of integrity who expect you to be at least their equal.I suspect too that your colleagues in GAMPAC would not be pleased to learn that you have not returned property belonging to a corporation to which you previously owed allegiance and for which you claimed to be fulfilling your fiduciary responsibilities. Would they be wise to trust you as their chief executive?I hope that the next few days will witness the return of these important and valuable documents to our library in Cranford.For Reason,Frank R. Zindler
Generations of ServiceMurderer Dies in PrisonSomething OldSomething NewSo Help Me Nobody -- Court affirmationsSix Myths about MMOHSeparation of Church and State, A RebuttalSchool Prayer FAQsSchool Prayer Decision (Madalyn Murray O'Hair)Spirits, Souls, and ClonesSponsor the ShowSusan B. AnthonyTestimony to US Civil Rights CommissionTexas State PageThe 10C's V. NeutralityThe Atheist: Madalyn's BiographyThe Battle is JoinedThe Battle of PhiladelphiaRushdie Missing from Book FairRock of Ages and the Age of RocksRobert OwenMythicist PrizeNativity - The origins of the Birth of JesusNazareth, Faith, and the Dark OptionNo More Ham -- A look at several Black Atheist LeadersNoahs Flood -- DebateOdd InquiriesOn WeddingsOther Gods that Look a LOT Like JesusPledge of AllegiancePledge of Allegiance - Dave's LetterPre-Christian Christmas Stories with Other GodsRaising Children Without GodRed Herring Rushdie IRed Herring Rushdie IIReligion Tax Office OpenedRoadside CrossesRobert G. Ingersoll The Black Atheists of The Harlem RenaissanceThe Cons of Charitable ChoiceTo Bash or Not to BashTom Cruise Pushes for FBI Funding for ScientologyTop Ten Atheist MythsVolunteers NeededWas Jesus a Jew?Was Jesus InventedWatch the Words!Wedding VowsWhat is the object of life? by Grant AllenWhat is Wrong with a Few Harmless Prayers?What to ask Preachers and MissionariesWhere Jesus Never WalkedWhite House Expands Faith-Based InitiativesWho are the freethinkers?Why I am an Infidel: Luther BurbankWhy is Religiosity so Hard to CureWhy the Truth About Nazareth is ImportantTill Death Do Us Part?Thomas Alva Edison: An Introduction by Frank Zindler Thomas Alva Edison: 1911 Columbian InterviewThe Creator BillThe DisappearanceThe Enlightenment, Freemasonry, and The IlluminatiThe Final Taboo: Electing AtheistsThe Good Old DaysThe Hon. Atheist Governor: Culbert L. Olson.The Inconsistency of TheismThe Kiwi QuestionThe Logic of Death by George J. Holyoake The Myth of Nazareth, Does it Really Matter?The Question of Atheists HospitalsThe Roots of AtheismThe School Prayer DecisionThe Science of CreationismThe Wild World of CreationismTheopolitics of the Rushdie CaseThomas Alva Edison 1910 NYT InterviewWinning an Unwinnable DebateChristianity, Its Nature and Influence on Civilisation by Charles Watts Christians in UniformCircuit Court Rules for "Aphorisms"Congress Rushes to preserve Clergy Tax BreaksContradictions in the BibleConvencion en espanolConvention 2010 ScheduleCourt Probing Parsonage TaxCowardice of the WestCreation Science and the FACT of EvolutionCreationism: Reversing ScienceCreator Bill TextDave's Favorite Biblical InconsistenciesDebate: Is Creationism Science (Zindler / Gish)Did Jesus Exist?Edwin C. Walker: American AtheistErnestine Rose: A Troublesome FemaleCharles WattsCase is Solved12 Further Fictions from the NTA Declaration of Mental Independence, by Robert Owen Abner KneelandAgainst the 10 Commandments in PublicAgnosticism: The Basis for AtheismAims and PrinciplesAlabamaAmerican Atheists Legal PhilosophyAn Atheist's Guide to MohammedanismAtheism by O'HairAtheism: Madalyn Murray O'Hair 1962 speechAtheist Director Wins Creche CaseAtheist MusiciansAtheist StationAtheist WeddingsBiblical ContradictionsBigotry Worst Against AtheistsEthics Without GodsFCC Religion HoaxMoslem Violence in BrittainInterview: Douglas AdamsJames Lick Jesus MythKeep Politics Out Of The Pulpit or Lose Tax-Exempt Status: Opinion Kentucky Homeland Security LawsuitKersey GravesLessons from The Satanic VersesmaMA Church Dismayed over DisplayMaculate Deception: The "Science" of CreationsimMangasar Magurditch Mangasarian Mary Faker Eddy -- Christian ScienceMOMormonismInaccurate Founding Father QuotesHurricane Katrina Boosts FBIGod on OUR MoneyFree WillFrom the Mouths of CreationistsFundamentalismFunerals - Dying an AtheistGeorge J. Holyoake - The last man in England tried for Atheism George J. Holyoake by Madalyn Murray O'HairGod in OUR PledgeGrant Allen How Jesus Got a LifeHang the Commandments -- All 30 of ThemHubert Henry Harrison: The Black Socrates aboutlawatheismFaith of the Founding Fathersreligionpoliticsyouth & familymilitarymediaLibraryeventsStoreJoin & Supportorphans
Because of the great legal and historical importance of the O’Hair diaries and the urgency of their being returned to the Charles E. Stevens American Atheist Library & Archives, we ask that until this issue be resolved you confine your comments as specifically as possible to the question of what should be done about the diaries of Madalyn Murray O’Hair.
With as much respect as I can muster, I must ask,
WTF is so damned URGENT about the return of these diaries? Do they contain the secret atheist agenda? Did Madalyn write notes in the margins about how to run the copy machine in the office? Was the key to the office safe hidden in the pages? What? Why are you so singularly focused, Frank, or BoD, whichever applies, on these books? I can agree they’re historic, and important to AA, but get a grip, people! Seriously. You give the impression you can’t do your jobs without them. WE ARE ATHEISTS. We don’t have holy artifacts. Should I mail you some of my X_anax?
As to the question
Unless Madalyn bequeathed them to Ellen, they should be returned to the AA archives, but I don’t care if Ellen returns them tomorrow, or two years from now. She’s not going to let anything happen to them. MMO’H was important to Ellen and I trust Ellen to keep the books safe and sound. Quit making a federal case over this and tend to business.
I was unable to pull up the lubbockonline piece, have to see that. Don’t understand who had posession in order to sell. IF, Ellen has the remaining diaries, a copy to the board would probably calm the storm temporarily. The muddy water appears to be settling some. More clarification needed.
I see the entity phreedm is on a rampage again. I suspect it was offended by my comments about fecal matter oozing from its lips. It speaks much about nothing. It always uses others words and ducks like a twisted little window peeper. It steps into the room often to whine and cry like a disturbed fat bully. It is obvious the entity phreedm has been educated beyond its intelligence.
It hates welfare but it supports tax dollars propping up the nuclear industry as a solution to energy demands! WOW. It will send you to this site or that site but the entity phreedm doesn’t really have an argument. If it would just open up and talk to us I could expose it for the phoney it is. I just hope it don’t take confessions from children.
Incidently folks, the incentive checks are just the corporate worlds desperate attempt to keep the economy floating till November so John McFascist has a chance. We’re giving them the money to give back to us every time we fill up the tank right. We will see another check between now and then, count your chickens before they hatch, the grease is hot. The crisis of capital is not a crisis of overproduction, it is a crisis of underconsumption. Right phreedm?
The article is very short. Here’s the whole thing…
This is unnecessary. This whole thing is about power.
Sounds like Johnson should just turn the books over to the IRS for auction…
I’ll bet this isn’t anything close to the end of AA and that AA will survive and will still be doing it’s thing (whatever that may be) in a year or five years ago. I do, however, predict that Frank’s tenure as president will be mercifully short. I believe an organization like AA owes it to it’s members to be as open as reasonably possible, but openness should not include airing grieviences and disputes that can be best handled privately. I just can’t believe that he thought it was a good idea to hash this out on a board that’s open to anyone.
I don’t know what Frank thought he was going to accomplish with this.
Chet
I am an atheist but not american, so I am not sure I may say something here. But I find this opened letter extremely shocking.
word.
What is the matter with you people?
It’s clear to me that Zindler is frustrated by the fact that Johnson is refusing all communication from AA, and may consider this public request as the last means of appealing to Johnson’s sense of decency and integrity before seeking legal recourse against her. It should be obvious that Johnson has erroneously [and delusionally] convinced herself that it is she who is rightful owner of O’Hair’s documents. I say, sue her now! And with such an arrogant and immature display of unethical behavior on her part, there are still many here who want her back???
Just WTF is wrong with you people?
If she feels like ignoring him by phone, email, and post, then chances are she’ll feel like ignoring him here as well. What are the chances she’s even reading this blog? (What are the chances she ever DID read this blog?)
The difference between all other forms of communication to her and this, is that THIS was designed to smear her in the public eye.
Anyway you look at it, it’s sad. It sure as hell doesn’t look like the behavior you might want to see in an organization you were considering investing in.
CrucieFiction:
How is it obvious that AA owns the diaries? Because Frank said so? Do you really want to hitch your wagon to that mule?
i’m pretty much with karen on this. since you want our opinion here it is:
if these diaries are deemed so damn valuable by the board, then why didn’t you all obtain them years ago and put them under lock and key? do they contain incriminating evidence against some of you?
even if they only have some sentimental importance to the board, to the rest of the atheist community they mean little and life without them will in no way affect our lives.
so if you want us to move on from the whole Ellen episode, then you should move on as well. if the diaries come back into your possession, well good for you. if they don’t, so what? as karen said, “we don’t have holy artifacts”.
Jeff-R,
So, do you think Johnson owns the diaries? Was she the winning bidder at an auction of the diaries? No, she wasn’t, because they have never been sold through auction.
Frank is speaking on behalf of the Atheist library corporation CESAALA, and is acting upon the fiduciary responsibility of his position. CESAALA is claiming that according to the terms of the joint will, all such personal property was to become the possession of CESAALA “with the stipulation that the library shall forever have the purpose of finding, preserving, and keeping Atheist and related books for research and enlightenment of Atheists.? And in light of the fact that the diaries have never been up for auction, why would this desire of the O’Hair family, as per stipulated in their will, not still be legal and binding?
If CESAALA is lying, as you seem to be implying without corroboration or any evidence whatsoever to support any such allegation, it must be noted that Johnson has not said a word about it — no objection or statement to refute this claim has been forthcoming. This silence lends itself to the only reasonable opinion that Johnson is just determined to hang on the diaries for herself no matter what, and in doing so, to ignore Madalyn’s wishes.
Let me ask you, if you really care about the well-being, where would you rather see them go — to Johnson or to the corporation for safe keeping within the organization that Madalyn founded?
Keep in mind that within the 1999 article from which you extracted a snippet (above), their estimated worth was up to $100,000. Nearly ten years later, what might they be worth today to its holder? Would you prefer Johnson realize a sizable increase to her personal bank account by selling the diaries in the future to whomever has the most money? Perhaps to someone or some group who would pay dearly for their ultimate destruction.
I would urge Frank and the corporation to immediately pursue any and all legal actions necessary to protect the diaries by court order, and to thereafter have a court decide legal ownership. IMO, this is an urgent matter given the emotional and irrational behavior of Johnson over the last weeks.
Thanx Jeff R, and Sayonara good point on possible incriminating evidence, or embarrasing info maybe, that never occured to me.
I wonder, given the fact the O’Hair estate is nearly a quarter milliion in the red to the IRS, are those diaries in jeopardy of being confiscated and auctioned off? Can you imagine the Pope being the high bidder just so he could build a fire? The IRS has probably considered this but would not want to give AA any publicity. This is probably why the media has ignored this whole situation so far. I’m sure Ellen will guard them well, they won’t float away.
Daniel R welcome to this blog. Don’t know what country your from but you shouldn’t be too shocked at this soccer riot without a ball. Us Americans can be a crude lot sometimes, I can be as crude as any. Many of us are upset at rough transition but we’ll all move forward as Christianity flops around like a dying fish. As the Bible thumpers gasp for life they are bound to make more noise.
CrucieFiction:
The article I copied in full above says the diaries and other papers were auctioned off for $12000 in April 1999. Do you have information to the contrary?
What I was thinking was that Frank’s interpretation of who really owns the diaries may not be correct. I said that even before someone else pointed out that they were auctioned off.
I would love to know if Jimmy Nassour ever had them, and if so what he did with them. Maybe I will try to follow up on that.
I don’t care that much about them, though I understand why some people might. They sure are not so important that it’s worth further embarassing the organization and it’s membership in a lame attempt to get them back, using a tactic that has no chance of success and that appears to be purposefully meant to smear Ellen’s reputation.
I think the diaries are in no danger in Ellen’s possesion (if she even has them). And I was told that the library building has a leaky roof and AA doesn’t have the $77000 to fix it, so the diaries may be better off in Ellens hands than in the library.
Ellen has said barely a word in public since her firing. I don’t see how that could possibly be called emotional and irrational behavior.
If you want an example of emotional and irrational behavior, you might look at how the Board decided to fire Ellen, how the firing was carried out, and how the organization has been run since then.
why doesn’t AA have the money and why hasn’t o’hairs tax bill been paid off.AA needs to put its house in order or it will join the dodo.
I might have misrepresented the situation a little. It could be that they have the money but they can’t get at it because they fired the one person who knows where it is kept.
OK Quick recap of a few points FYI.
1) MMOH was kidnapped and murdered , along with her son Jon and granddaughter Robin. Before the murder, they were forced to steal 500K from AA. The money was then stolen AGAIN from the murderers. The broke murderers went to jail, and directed the police to a grave containing the bodies.
2) I have personally seen a copy the will of MMOH and it stipulates clearly that all her possessions go to CESAALA (the American Atheists Library). In my layman’s opinion, the diaries clearly belong to CESAALA.
3)Yes, folks, by all means American Atheists has a long future ahead of itself. We are healthy and strong, and once we secure a permanent president with a focus on the future we’ll be able to make it happen in 15 years.
Jeff-R,
You’re under the [erroneous] impression that the diaries were auctioned, and you don’t even wonder or question how Johnson came to have them? Did you just assume she was the high bidder? WTF are you thinking?!?
No, THE DIARIES WERE NEVER AUCTIONED! I stated that several times, yet you ignore. Johnson just took them. See this article which estimated the 1999 value of the diaries up to $100,000.
http://tinyurl.com/5sodaz
“Mrs. O’Hair’s private papers — her discharge from the Army as a second lieutenant, birth certificate, marriage licenses and years of meticulously kept diaries — were not part of today’s auction…”
It was obvious you [and others here] DON’T CARE about the diaries, and now you stated that fact. That’s a tragedy in itself. The only embarrassment I can see is that you people/members seem to be devoid of logical reasoning abilities. Your twisted personal loyalty to Johnson blinds you completely to the entire big picture here and to the important issues and responsibilities the organization has to the entire membership.
The ludicrous and asinine reasoning in these comments make my head hurt — and I’m not even a member (thankfully) of this whacked out organization. In reading these comments that place logic on its head, I can see that the organization has no hope of getting its act together any time soon. It will almost certainly remain a disgrace. I came to discover an unethical incident involving Johnson back in 2001 which precluded me from renewing membership at that time. I realized then that there was no where else to turn or complain within the organization as she was its totalitarian ruler/dictator, so I walked away in disgust. And so her recent behavior has come as no surprise to me.
thanks Jeff_R
i feel strongly next president should have a proven record in running a org.either profit or nonprofit.
The article I quoted was from 1999. At that time noboby knew what had happened to the Murray-O’Hair family. It was later discovered that they were murdered.
I have no idea what happens when the government auctions off your property because they think you are dodging taxes, and later find out you were dead all along. Does the government have to restore the estate as best they can so it can be disposed of according to the deceased person’s will? That sounds like the only fair thing to do, but is it what really happens?
Is there an estate lawyer in the house?
One more thing to Jeff-R. Ellen has managed to smear her own reputation, and appears determined to keep it that way.
CrucieFiction -
The date of your article is January 25, 1999.
The one I posted is from April 1999 and describes a second auction in which the diaries and other papers were sold. This article even refers to the first auction in January.
Eat crow.
CrucieFiction = Phreedum
Those demanding more transparency may be biting their tongues.
shorebird
Those of us that have called for more transparency want the board to state their cause (in the legal sense) for firing Ellen Johnson and give members a say in the business of the organization (FRFF does). AA has not done either.
We do not want to be participants in transparent and childish attempts to manipulate Ellen Johnson.
In short, I want the board and president of AA to represent us – not manipulate us.
Here’s another newspaper story pre-dating the first of the estate auctions.
http://lubbockonline.com/stories/011199/LD0622.shtml
So CrucieFiction was right after all (not really, but almost, sort of), so I’ll eat a little crow myself.
The particular diaries that Frank is asking for were not auctioned off. Their whereabouts were unknown at the time of the auction, and still are.
Questions of whether Ellen Johnson has the Madalyn O’Hair diaries (1959-1972 and 1989-1995 portions) and, if so, when she acquired them have been raised. Only she can answer “if”, though she’s long claimed possession of them; “when” can be narrowed down.
In September 1995, after the Murray O’Hair kidnapping but before anyone knew what had happened, GHQ office manager Spike Tyson entered their house. From Ann Seaman’s book: “Tyson went to Greystone, pulled down the attic ladder in the garage, walked through the attic, and came down the inside ladder in the hall, bypassing the alarm.” (He testified doing so in more detail at the Gary Karr trial.) The next month, the Murray O’Hairs didn’t show up for a scheduled pope picket. In November, Ellen Johnson was appointed president by the AA Board of Directors, with the understanding that she’d immediately relinquish the post should the Murray O’Hairs show up.
In February 1996, Tyson moved into the Greystone house rent-free: in February 1997, the IRS seized it and everything inside (including Tyson’s possessions) after obtaining a lien for unpaid taxes. So, if the Madalyn O’Hair diaries are with Johnson, she’d have obtained them between October 1995 and February 1997. My understanding is that she went to the house looking for clues as to their whereabouts some time between October 1995 and February 1996. Along with the diaries, she found their passports and some other personal documents.
The possibility of embarrassing or incriminating information would more likely apply to the 1989-1995 entries, as this is when O’Hair was engaged in a hostile takeover attempt of the Truth Seeker, and beset by the IRS investigation. Perhaps Johnson wanted to examine that section in case O’Hair had recorded any fears of danger or plans to flee.
If copies of the will aren’t made availaible, we have no way of knowing O’Hair’s intent for her diaries. An earlier will, dated August 13, 1986, specified that the administrators of AA and the library should be Herman Harris and Scott Kerns. The last sentence stated, “Under no circumstances do we desire Frank Zindler, [his home address], to be given the editorship of the magazine, the American Atheist.” This is probably not the last will, though there may be a reason why the Board isn’t making it public. Again, from Seaman’s book: “Arnold Via, vice president of at least one of the corporations, was actually next in line to take charge”.
The high estimate of $100,000 for the diaries was wishful thinking on someone’s part. Note that the low estimate was $5,000. At the time, most experts said $10,000 would be about right; Nassour paid $12,000. AA didn’t think they were worth that much — they bid under $3,000.
Since possession is 90% of the law, AA will need to convince a court that the diaries belong to the library. Without the portion of the diaries currently in Nassour’s possession, this might be difficult; they should have gone after them first. Nassour has made his collection available for public examination: will AA do the same? So far, Johnson hasn’t.
Not only is continually browbeating Ellen Johnson after firing her extremely poor conduct, it’s a serious warning to anyone considering applying for the president’s job. If she has the diaries, the statute of limitations should be on her side. She could retain them in a safe place, sell them to Nassour (she might need the money), or burn them. I’d consider those actions before giving them to people who apparently enjoy kicking a female when she’s down.
Jeff, you’ll find more information on the topic in the San Antonio Express-News archive. Their reporter, John MacCormack, deserves the most credit for solving the kidnapping mystery.
Apparently Zindler only knows how to speak legalese. Regardless of the rights and wrongs in the litigation, this letter is beyond the pale.
This gives me the impression of a Leninist, or even Stalinist, mentality. When are the new Moscow trials for the atheist counter-revolutionaries?
Jim diGriz
Very interesting. Thanks.
Fire Frank now!
I am an atheist because I think, not because I belong to a certain group or organization. It was partly Ellen’s approach that made me join AA last year. Her removal raised questions for me and after reading Arthur Brenner’s open letter, I have decided not to renew my membership. The kind of egomaniac board nonsense, clearly displayed here, is exactly why I remained solo for the last 50 years. Whishing AA all the best and if Ellen is reinstated or perhaps does something on her own, she would have my support.
I don’t give a crap if the vatican gets a hold of these stupid papers. I’ll still be atheist, and I’m still going to post on this blog. So there.
Patd,
Do you have any idea of how long Arthur Brenner worked for American Atheists? I asked him, but I never got a reply. I think it’s a sore spot for him…
Joe
Don’t really know much about Arthur and AA for that matter.
The whole thing with Ellen just smelled a bit fishy to me and that’s why I searched and ran into Arthur?s letter. It took guts to speak out like that.
It is gutsy activists like Ellen and Arthur, not afraid to speak up, that Atheism needs and the sole reason why I joined. I am not getting that vibe from Frank and his board.
Too bad …. move on I say.
Patd,
Madalyn put it best: “From whence do you derive your authority?”
It works on people even better than it works on gods.
Re Frank Zindler’s embarrassingly pathetic letter about the Madalyn diaries:
I’ve gotten onto this thread quite late in the discussion.
But I would like to point out to Frank that he most certainly can contact Ellen Johnson through the usual means: her mother, her sisters, her children, Arthur Brenner. If I was able to contact her, anybody can. The good old U.S. Post Office is one way.
Ellen is not hiding out like a criminal. She has a right to her dignity and she does not have to respond to the stupid requests of those who humiliated her and who may only want to skewer her further. It was not necessary to post that incriminating letter on this blog, Frank.
And yes, it was a deliberate attempt to incriminate her. There have been innuendos here of “other things” that Ellen may have been fired for. ARE THESE DIARIES ALL THAT YOU HAVE BEEN ABLE TO COME WITH?
What do you think Ellen is going to do, sell them at auction at Sotheby’s and pocket the money? After 13 years of working for about $34,000/year, I doubt Ellen is after money.
You forget the mother/daughter relationship between Ellen and Madalyn. You don’t know the promises Ellen may have made to Madalyn.
I feel Ellen made the Freedom Walk down south as a memorial to Madalyn. I think Ellen is still heartbroken over the death of Madalyn and is holding onto, in any way she can, her memory of Madalyn and her promises to our founder.
Frank, you are cruel and heartless in your accusing innuendos. Please, LET ELLEN GRIEVE. Leave her alone. Get off her case. Don’t you see that nearly 100% of bloggers on this thread are against you and see through your ridiculous and slanderous tactics?
If you don’t stop taunting Ellen, the upshot may be that you are only creating the first Atheist martyr. Oh wait a minute. She would be the second Atheist martyr. Bill Moore was the first.
But Bill Moore was killed by redneck racist fundamentalists. Ellen is being taunted and tortured by Judases within the Atheist movement.
Has any of you ever seen a chicken right after it’s head’s been cut off? It’s the weirdest thing… there’s this sudden explosion of frantic, aimless movement as the body bounces all over the place. After about ten seconds, it starts slowing down until all movement ceases within about thirty seconds.
The recent actions of the Board somehow bring that image from my childhood back to memory. Anyway, this new letter by Mr. Zindler is something I really cannot stomach. Did he have the best interests of the organization in mind when he sent it? Perhaps, just as perhaps the Board had the organization’s best interests in mind when they cut its head off. It’s possible… yet, if a group of religious fundamentalists were ever to infiltrate the organization in order to cause its downfall from within, I can hardly see how they could do any greater damage than what has already been done by the very people who run it.
So sad to see it happen… I guess I’ll have to wait and see if the chicken is really dead.
Smartgal, when was the last time you had contact with Ellen? It would be nice to know that she’s alive and (more or less) well.
I tried e-mailing her last week just to check up on her and didn’t get a response. But hey, she doesn’t know me and she probably figures she has had to deal with more than her share of weird dudes recently.
I’m glad I joined the Freedom From Religion Foundation (ffrf.org) instead of the (Petty) American Atheists.
Jeff-R wrote:
“Smartgal, when was the last time you had contact with Ellen? It would be nice to know that she’s alive and (more or less) well.”
————————————
Jeff-R, Ellen is alive and well. She does not read this blog as she feels it would be too painful.
I feel I can’t say anything more than that about Ellen’s situation without her permission, except that I think she is being brave and courageous. That’s my opinion.
I will excerpt only one thing she wrote to me in a longer email recently.
Ellen wrote:
“I worry terribly for the future of AA.”
So do I.
AA is now in the hands of people who are more concerned about some pieces of paper than about humans and human feelings. I would expect Atheists to be as kind and conciliatory and forgiving as Christians are. In my catholic youth, I was taught absolution. I cannot live with the feeling that there are people out there on AA’s board of directors judging Ellen, who do not understand Ellen’s grief about Madalyn or Ellen’s wish to “finish” things for Madalyn or the symbolism of the Freedom Walk as a memorial for Madalyn. Or even the sacrifices Ellen has made for 13 years of her life.
I was told that somebody read to Ellen what I wrote on this blog at one time, which said, “Madalyn would have made the Freedom Walk herself even with her cane or her walker. Madalyn would have waved her cane or walker as she entered each new town!”
I was told that brought tears to Ellen’s eyes.
What you heartless people on the BOD can’t seem to understand is the deep emotional significance of what Ellen did for a woman she loved. Ellen was finishing an unfinished task for Madalyn. She was doing for Madalyn what death had not permitted Madalyn to do herself. It was a labor of love on Ellen’s part. Yes, guys, the Most Hated Woman in the World…was loved.
Jeff-R wrote:
“Smartgal, when was the last time you had contact with Ellen? It would be nice to know that she’s alive and (more or less) well.”
————————————
Jeff-R, Ellen is alive and well. She does not read this blog as she feels it would be too painful.
I feel I can’t say anything more than that about Ellen’s situation without her permission, except that I think she is being brave and courageous. That’s my opinion.
I will excerpt only one thing she wrote to me in a longer email recently.
Ellen wrote:
“I worry terribly for the future of AA.”
So do I.
AA is now in the hands of people who are more concerned about some pieces of paper than about humans and human feelings. I would expect Atheists to be as kind and conciliatory and forgiving as Christians are. In my catholic youth, I was taught absolution. I cannot live with the feeling that there are people out there on AA’s board of directors judging Ellen, who do not understand Ellen’s grief about Madalyn or Ellen’s wish to “finish” things for Madalyn or the symbolism of the Freedom Walk as a memorial for Madalyn. Or even the sacrifices Ellen has made for 13 years of her life.
I was told that somebody read to Ellen what I wrote on this blog at one time, which said, “Madalyn would have made the Freedom Walk herself even with her cane or her walker. Madalyn would have waved her cane or walker as she entered each new town!”
I was told that brought tears to Ellen’s eyes.
What you heartless people on the BOD can’t seem to understand is the deep emotional significance of what Ellen did for a woman she loved. Ellen was finishing an unfinished task for Madalyn. She was doing for Madalyn what death had not permitted Madalyn to do herself. It was a labor of love on Ellen’s part. Yes, guys, the Most Hated Woman in the World…was loved.
Jeff-R wrote:
“Smartgal, when was the last time you had contact with Ellen? It would be nice to know that she’s alive and (more or less) well.”
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Jeff-R, Ellen is alive and well. She does not read this blog as she feels it would be too painful.
I feel I can’t say anything more than that about Ellen’s situation without her permission, except that I think she is being brave and courageous. That’s my opinion.
I will excerpt only one thing she wrote to me in a longer email recently.
Ellen wrote:
“I worry terribly for the future of AA.”
So do I.
AA is now in the hands of people who are more concerned about some pieces of paper than about humans and human feelings. I would expect Atheists to be as kind and conciliatory and forgiving as Christians are. In my catholic youth, I was taught absolution. I cannot live with the feeling that there are people out there on AA’s board of directors judging Ellen, who do not understand Ellen’s grief about Madalyn or Ellen’s wish to “finish” things for Madalyn or the symbolism of the Freedom Walk as a memorial for Madalyn. Or even the sacrifices Ellen has made for 13 years of her life.
I was told that somebody read to Ellen what I wrote on this blog at one time, which said, “Madalyn would have made the Freedom Walk herself even with her cane or her walker. Madalyn would have waved her cane or walker as she entered each new town!”
I was told that brought tears to Ellen’s eyes.
What you heartless people on the BOD can’t seem to understand is the deep emotional significance of what Ellen did for a woman she loved. Ellen was finishing an unfinished task for Madalyn. She was doing for Madalyn what death had not permitted Madalyn to do herself. It was a labor of love on Ellen’s part. Yes, guys, the Most Hated Woman in the World…was loved.
Such a letter is totally inappropriate. I call it a private matter gone public.
Oh shut up, dogon3
What’s inappropriate is your comment. Nothing about the Ellen dismissal is a “private matter”–though I’m sure the board members would like to see it that way.
What do you think is “inappropriate” in my message–love?