OK So this is elitist at best, but here’s the rub. Religion is a stupid thing. It doesn’t take brains to believe in stupid things. It DOES take brains to QUESTION stupid things, and then to identify them as stupid.
A study published in the journal “Intelligence” shows the smarter a person is, the less likely they are to believe in God.Ulster University Psychology Professor Richard Lynn found a large percentage of people with a high IQ considered themselves to be atheists.His survey of the Royal Society found that just over three percent believed in God. That compares to nearly 69 percent of Britain’s general population who are believers.During the 20th century, as intelligence levels rose, religious belief in 137 developed nations declined. Critics dismiss Lynn’s research as too simplistic.
Everdense
Boy you are one dense MF. The church is just a protection racket – throwing around, for goodwill, a small fraction of the bucks they take in. You are one dense MF.
Evidence
No kidding? So you say to these scientists, “Goddidit.”
And they say, “W-e-l-l. We’re not sure, let’s study our world and see. “
*Study, study, study.*
“Yep! You were right! God did it!”
Just what kinds of scientists are these?
666,
You atheists see what you want to see. You definitely have a “blame the christians” complex. He grew up in a Roman Catholic home but your comment is still unfounded. Read:
The guy killed just about anyone unlike himself. See, even your beloved Darwinism can have bad influence.
What,
What church are you talking about? Many if not all of the churches that I have ever known had little left over money. Even still, they helped others in need.
By the way, how much resources did any atheist organization commit to helping others? I didn’t happen to see that.
No, I?m on target.
Then we agree. Martyrdom is suicide.
Oh goodness, wrong again:
?Two hundred ninety-five (79.5%) of the subjects had a diagnosis of major depressive disorder, and 76 (20.5%) had bipolar disorder, currently depressed. There were 189 subjects (50.9%) with a lifetime history of a suicide attempt. One hundred seventy-five (47.2%) had a history of substance use disorder. The mean clinical ratings were 20.1 (SD=6.2) on the Hamilton depression scale, 28.1 (SD=11.4) on the Beck Depression Inventory, and 36.3 (SD=8.1) on the BPRS. Among the subjects who reported a religious affiliation (N=305), the specific denominations endorsed were Catholicism (41.0%, N=125), Protestantism (28.5%, N=87), Judaism (17.4%, N=53), and other (13.1%, N=40). ?
So, no, not the whole world. What you quoted was who would allow it, no numbers, nada. Atheism isn?t a ?belief system?, it?s a worldview filter. Agnosticism is just ?Duh, I dunno.?
A. Never said any of those things, so do refrain from putting words in my mouth,
B. Didn?t blame the CW, or I or II on religion, never have.
C. Hitler might not have been a ?true xtian?, but he wasn?t an atheist (what atheist puts ?Gott mit uns? on national belt buckles?)
Why, thanks for your kind permission.
Try looking for 1 first.
Wow, your lack of knowledge of Hitler is just astonishing. That?s social Darwinism, it?s not the same thing as evolutionary science. AH obviously borrowed whatever he wanted to rationalize what he did. He was an occultist, dink. He had an astrologer. Read Mein Kampf sometime?his big hero was Martin Luther.
Jeez, for someone who calls himself ?evidence?, you sure don?t go looking around. Here?s a list, dipwad:
DonorsChoose.org
a simple way to provide students in need with resources that our public schools often lack.
Kiva.org
lets you connect with and loan money to unique small businesses in the developing world.
The Union of Concerned Scientists
The leading science-based non-profit working for a healthy environment and safer world.
American Red Cross
The American Red Cross, a humanitarian organization led by volunteers, guided by its Congressional Charter and the Fundamental Principles of the International Red Cross Movement, will provide relief to victims of disasters and help people prevent, prepare for, and respond to emergencies. The USA’s premier emergency response organization, over 91% of Red Cross spending is on charitable services.
American Civil Liberties Union
The mission of the ACLU is to preserve all of constitutional protections and guarantees relating to First Amendment rights, including the freedom to practice religion and the freedom not to have religion rammed down our throats, equal protection, due process, and right to privacy.
United Nations Children’s Fund
UNICEF mobilizes political will and material resources to help countries, particularly developing countries, ensure a “first call for children” and to build their capacity to form appropriate policies and deliver services for children and their families. UNICEF provides emergency and disaster relief.
Doctors without Borders
Doctors Without Borders/M?decins Sans Fronti?res (MSF) is an international independent medical humanitarian organization that delivers emergency aid to people affected by armed conflict, epidemics, natural and man-made disasters, and exclusion from health care in nearly 70 countries.
Amnesty International
AI?s vision is of a world in which every person enjoys all of the human rights enshrined in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights and other international human rights standards.
In pursuit of this vision, AI?s mission is to undertake research and action focused on preventing and ending grave abuses of the rights to physical and mental integrity, freedom of conscience and expression, and freedom from discrimination, within the context of its work to promote all human rights.
Oxfam International
Oxfam International is a confederation of 12 organizations working together with over 3,000 partners in more than 100 countries to find lasting solutions to poverty, suffering and injustice. The Oxfams operate in over 100 countries worldwide working with local partners to alleviate poverty and injustice.
The Nature Conservancy
The Nature Conservancy is a leading international, nonprofit organization dedicated to preserving the diversity of life on Earth. An environmental group that protects natural habitats and the wildlife within them. Focuses on “science-based” initiatives.
Population Connection
Population Connection is the national grassroots population organization that educates young people and advocates progressive action to stabilize world population at a level that can be sustained by Earth’s resources. Works against faith-based policies that are supported by the Religious Right.
DefCon: Campaign to Defend the Constitution
DefCon is an online grassroots movement combating the growing power of the religious right. It includes a blog on religious freedom issues, action alerts, and in-depth articles on scientific, religious, and legal issues of the day.
The SEED foundation
National nonprofit that establishes urban public boarding schools to prepare students from underserved communities for success in college.
These are secular organizations – but of course, you’ll refuse to see the forest for the trees.
Everdense
AA or other atheist organizations aren’t in the protection racket so there is no need for them to spread that pittance about to create a little good well in strategic places.
That’s funny stuff! Guido says the same thing and just like Guido the church wont show you the books.
KA
Thanks for taking the time to address the tired old Hilter thing. Man those dumbass evangelicals just don’t know when to quit.
What – sure, no problemo.
I’ve had that discussion many times. I suspect ‘Evidence’ will move the goalposts (again! Whadda surprise).
I’m guessing he saw that fucked up Stein movie.
Couple of quotes come to mind:
?He uses statistics as a drunken man uses lamp-posts – for support rather than illumination.? – Lang.
“The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one. The happiness of credulity is a cheap and dangerous quality.”
~ George Bernard Shaw
KA,
No we don’t, “Walking willingly into the buzzsaw” is obviously suicidal.
It’s clear that you’ll say stupid things to try to prove a point. Here’s what a martyr is to clarify your misunderstanding:
“a person who is PUT TO DEATH or endures great suffering on behalf of any belief, principle, or cause: a martyr to the cause of social justice.”
Mabe you should be educating 666:
I never stated he was an atheist. And I never stated that you blamed CW, WWI, etc. on religion. I was simply saying there are plenty of terrible things that happen outside of religious causes.
What,
What “church” are you referring to?
You’re using a broad, sweeping statement.
…and a world full of skeptics would be just as “cheap and dangerous”. Atheistic individuals are not without human error, abuse and cruelty.
Oh, and bravo on the list of organizations atheists have supported, though I’m not sure how many were atheist founded and run. Some of the mentioned groups are supported by the religious community as well. But you are all too willing to scorn anything religious entities do that are genuinely good.
and accurate. So what is your point?
Churches take in huge sums of cash, dole out a bit, and pocket the rest. You dolts spend countless dollars on supporting your religion and you have nothing to show for it – same (or higher) rates of crime, drug abuse, child abuse etc than in nonreligious groups. And you wonder why I call you a dumbass.
‘Evidence’:
Well, I made the analogy that suicide was the equivalent of walking into a buzzsaw, you agreed. I?d thought the transitive value was there. Sorry.
Let?s further examine the concept:
Since there?s an extreme likelihood that there?s NO GOD, it qualifies as suicide, then.
And I quote:
?So Lenin, Stalin and Hitler were promoting their religion. And the Civil War, WWI & WWII, and Vietnam were a “holy jihad”. There are plenty of things that make this world ugly…including atheistic influences.?
So lessee, you INFER these fucktards were atheists (Stalin & Lenin were), it?s pretty clear you were playing the ?guilt by association? card. Or so it seemed.
Your conflation of Nazi eugenics w/evolutionary theory was?well, to use your own words, ?you’ll say stupid things to try to prove a point?.
In fact, anti-Semitism is a Christian legacy. Along w/the concept of the ?holy race?, bloodlines, & pile of other crap.
& here I thought we?d agreed that it was the people, not the ideology.
Way to move the goalposts.
No, I don?t scorn the entities that do genuine good. I scorn their epistemology. Superstition? Why does anyone need superstition to contribute to the betterment of his or her species? The fact that someone needs an external source to motivate them to do good deeds is quite suspicious, in my book.
Skeptics have & will continue to contribute to humanity. The reasons you?re unaware of this is multiple:
A. You don?t make the effort to investigate this possibility,
B. Atheists have been HUGELY outnumbered throughout history, &
C. A great many folks throughout history were major league skeptics. Since being godless has always been anathema, for the most part they kept it under their hats.
Would it now? History has shown us time & again that while human nature is fraught w/xenophobia (that?s how we evolved, it?s a defense mechanism), as a rule religion has usually proven to be the gasoline thrown on the forest fire.
In fact, the belief in an afterlife, a free pass to heaven, & a get-out-of-jail-free card (in the next world) has really caused far too much grief in the real world.
Really, an argument from fallibility is just a cheap rhetorical device, not even worthy of analysis.
Oh, here’s more on the eugenics controversy in pre-WWII Germany:
http://tinyurl.com/63pfwb
It appears that the Church (or ANY church) wasn’t quite as squeaky clean as the believers have been led to ‘believe’.
What,
No, you’re not accurate. It’s obvious that you are speaking out of an irrational and emotional opinion.
Do have the specifics for this statement?
KA,
This deductive reasoning is absurd.
That statement was an attempt at sarcasm that you missed. Voice inflection profits nothing on a blog.
It’s naive to think human nature would not find different “gasoline [to throw] on the forest fire”. Greed, hatred, insensitivity and the like would surley find it’s place. By the looks of it, suicide would become a major factor in an atheist majority world. I wouldn’t make any favorable predictions if I were you.
‘Evidence’:
So bring some ?evidence?. Haven?t seen any yet.
Vanity of vanities, sayeth the preach. Of what profit?
Oh, oops. That?s right. I can talk your patois, you can?t speak mine.
Oh, ye of little faith?
Oops again. (snigger). Maybe back then. But you see, if you?re an atheist, you value this life a lot more. Less likely to take the life of another.
Oh, posh. Codswallop. You find some survey on the web that suits your fancy, dress it up & take it dancing. The people factored into that survey (regardless of its integrity) were a small control group that were targeted because they were suicidal. You show me the suicide rates of religious vs. secular countries, and THEN I?ll take your ?atheism leads to suicide!? balderdash a little more seriously.
You realize that there are secular countries that have religious people residing in them, correct?
I thought we had this conversation about making broad sweeping generalizations? Guess the lesson didn?t take.
?Believing in an invisible sky daddy will keep people from killing themselves!?
Does that sound as stupid to you as it does to me?
Keep squirming ? this is fun.
Everdense’s response to all arguments and facts is fundamentally this: “Nuh Uh”.
What:
Guess that’s what happens when someone’s primary source is Conservapedia.
Evidence:
No, I didn’t. I asked for hard numbers, not a naked assertion.
How many? What are the numbers? Did they all leave suicide notes? What did the notes say? Did all these guys live in 3rd world countries? Were they all atheists? I’d like a full breakdown, please.
Also, what is meant by ‘high levels of atheism?’ Was every suicide an atheist?
The other problem w/this, is that it’s from one year only. Gimmee a 10 year spread – hell, I’ll be gracious & ask for 5, howzat?
Another problem is nailing down the censuses in these countries – how do we know the numbers are anywhere near accurate? Bureaucracy’s are notorious for getting things wrong.
The Sri Lanka thing screws the pooch – SL is VERY religious, yet that country rates among the top ten, which could be indicative of the lower living standards there.
It’s not difficult @ all. Especially in 3rd world countries, where living is hard, & life is cheap. REGARDLESS OF RELIGIOUS AFFILIATION.
We have India, as an example. India rates upwards as being an extremely religious country. Yet suicide seems to be growing, as evinced here:
http://tinyurl.com/3q2dzu
Highest suicide rate? Lithuania (2005). 79% of them are Roman Catholic.
2nd up is Belarus, which is historically has been Russian Orthodox. Freedom to worship is granted by their constitution.
3rd up is Russia – hey, completely atheistic, right?
Wrong.
“Christianity, Islam, Buddhism, and Judaism are Russia?s traditional religions, deemed part of Russia’s “historical heritage” in a law passed in 1997. Estimates of believers widely fluctuate among sources, and some reports put the number of non-believers in Russia as high as 16?48% of the population. Russian Orthodoxy is the dominant religion in Russia. 95% of the registered Orthodox parishes belong to the Russian Orthodox Church while there are a number of smaller Orthodox Churches. However, the vast majority of Orthodox believers do not attend church on a regular basis. Nonetheless, the church is widely respected by both believers and nonbelievers, who see it as a symbol of Russian heritage and culture. Smaller Christian denominations such as Roman Catholics, Armenian Gregorian and various Protestants exist.”
So, in a nutshell:
Male suicides seem to be higher in ‘atheistic’ countries, but thus far, naked assertion is yet another sad rhetorical device that comes apart under scrutiny.
Do stop being so casuistic next time, please.
I’ve posted on this elsewhere:
http://tinyurl.com/5gdcht
PS – I deep-sixed the double post thing for ya.
KA,
Uh, did you miss this part as shown above…
Actually, it does! It’s called accoutablility. Why is it so difficult for you to grasp that someone who believes death brings silence wouldn’t object to indulging?
Sorry, the repeat was not intentional. Browser moved slow.
KA,
I think more “scrutiny” can border on denial. I’m not so sure more “numbers” would satify. But more accuracy is always better.
I agree that it is difficult sometimes to live without belief or certainty, but that does not make me want to delude myself with some sort of comforting hogwash. It may be that the true nature of the universe, time, space and matter etc. are beyond our current ability to fully comprehend. Perhaps in another million years or so we will have evolved to a higher level. Personally I still have trouble getting the idea of quantum physics. As for the premise of the study, all I can say is… DUHH
Weak showing.
What did I say earlier in this thread? 1st law of statistics: correlation doesn?t prove causation.
Points we agree on:
A. Contributions made regardless of ideology.
B. Broad sweeping generalizations are a bad thing.
Turned around & changed your mind to suit your needs?
Texas sharpshooter fallacy.
Do better homework next time.
I used to be an atheist for a short time when I was 18 and knew everything. Since then I have pondered everything any human could ever ponder regarding creation.
All my studies and meditation led me through agnosticism to a faith in GOD!
I do not believe Atheists are smarter than people of faith. But I do believe they are just as smart.
You see you are also people of faith.
Your faith lies in the natural miracle of the singularity.
You would have to deny your own existance if you actually believe that at some point before the big bang there was an absolute zero value.
All the energy that transformed into our known physical universe had to come from somewhere! M theory does not address the issue of creation,
it just conveniently tip toes around the one hurdle our limited minds cannot handle.
So in the end my freinds you have to ask yourself the most important question you have ever asked yourself.
As intelectual people what do you feel more comfortable with?
That existence created intelligence?or that inteligence created exsistence?
I stress the word feel because as intelectuals we know there is an element of the human heart that directs our intelect. Like it or not we have emotions and senses, and there is a way in which our creator speaks to us.
One last thing do not let the failures of man kind attenuate your willingness to study the word of God.
Religion has failed missurably over the centuries in setting an example of Godly living. That was what kept me away.
Jesus comanded us to love everyone
and spread the word so here I am.
Let’s talk over our differences and
have some fun doing it!
ping
ping,
Before you engage a group of atheists in a debate, I think you should know that some of us (in spite of the admonitions not to) are prone to mocking theists if their arguments are of the same old tired stripes which are used to prove the existence of a Christian god. Be prepared.
You stated that you have pondered everything ponderable. This is a difficult assertion to accept.
Through your studies and meditation you have arrived at a conclusion. This suggests that you have the proof we all need in order to accept one of the thousands of gods available. Please, do tell.
Please explain what you are trying to say when referencing “the singularity”. I gather it’s something to do with black holes, which I fail to see how the existence of a god would be involved.
“One last thing do not let the failures of man kind attenuate your willingness to study the word of God.”
You will have to translate this for me.
I speak for some atheists when I say that we are comfortable with not knowing everything. We use the best evidence available to believe. There is no need for faith. Faith and belief are not synonymous. Faith is the belief in something for which there is no evidence.
ping:
I speak for myself, when I say – it’s silly to have an ‘intelectual’ conversation w/someone who can’t even spell the word.
Good – then you can fill in the gaps towards the ‘theory of everything’. Is string theory worth anything? 10 or 11 dimensions?
ping
The first quote contradicts the second quote. Quite obviously, you have not pondered everything or you would not assign us thought such as those in the first quote. Plus, you would have to know all the thoughts of all the people of all time-past present and future- to know that you have pondered whatever they might come up with. How is that possible?
You may no longer be 18, but you still think you know everything, apparently. Guess what?