What a cheery subject! But some on the blog have mentioned this and I thought it deserved a thread. What happens when you die?You rot. Now, what to do with a corpse? My vote is to donate the whole thing to science and those who need organs. I think that’s a pro-life stance.My wife doesn’t quite agree. She’ll donate life-saving organs, but the rest is to be buried. This is one of the few things on which I have acquiesced in our marriage. In other words, some of my body will go to waste — worm food and nothing more. The reason? Jewish religion forbids mutilating a body, and as most of you know my wife is theistic.http://www.apologeticspress.org/articles/2164 This is a pretty decent article from an Aplogetics side. It seems to me that anyone who is pro-life should be vehemently pro-organ-donation.
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Tim,
Excuse me? There’s a big difference between ‘discounting’ and ‘refuting.’ If you evidence is flawed, I intend to refute it, not discount it. If it is not flawed then I will have to reform some of my understanding of the universe. Your presumption is offensive.
Besides, if you really believe that, why are you here?
I don’t know what you mean by “explain away.” The FreeDictionary defines it as “to invent reasons why something is unimportant,” but I have no intention of inventing anything.
Obviously this dream is important to you, but the problem is that it’s a personal experience that you could never communicate effectively enough to convince us (though give it a shot, by all means). I will certainly present an alternate theory that doesn’t involve the supernatural if I can, but whether or not that causes you to doubt your dream-powers is not important to me.
The idea of me having to explain away your dream makes no sense to me. Right now I regard it as something that happened that I have almost no knowledge of. Nothing more, nothing less. Your description of it as a dream that came true several days later is far too vague to draw any conclusions about. Exactly what is it that I need to explain away?
Knowing as little as I do now, my best guess is that your experience is probably explainable because A) dream recall is notoriously unreliable, B) confirmation bias is a constant problem, especially in cases of individual experience, and C) there is an awful lot we don’t know about dreams, it might be that you were dreaming about an actual past event (without realizing it). You may have been unconsciously aware that you would soon be repeating that past event.
Without knowing more, I can’t say more than that. I am also nowhere near an expert in Oneirology, so take that all with a grain of salt.
Tom,
My girlfriend and I both had the same thought (without telling each other, or even being in the same room). Obviously we can communicate supernaturally.
Hippogriff!
Comment from: alatham
My girlfriend and I both had the same thought (without telling each other, or even being in the same room). Obviously we can communicate supernaturally.
And, equally obviously, both of you have telepathic powers that were strong enough to pick up my mind controlling rays and be influenced by them! It’s a FSM miracle! Praise His Noodly Appendage! Were you wearing pirate garb at the time?
Tiny Tim
We are controlling your mind through your computer. There is nothing wrong with your computer. Do not attempt to adjust the display. We are controlling transmission.
Tiny Tim is calling Kucinich a cuckoo another thread. Tooooo funny given his fantasy on display on this thread.
alatham,
How much more precise and concrete do I have to get to explain what happened to me? Vague? Give me a break. If you are really interested, ask more questions, but it looks like your reply is an attempt on your point to “explain away” what I related.
Don’t be put off, by “explain away” I mean an attempt to explain something without acknowledging that it certainly is evidence of SOMETHING that lies outside the physical dimension you folks are so fond of. To wit:
“my best guess is that your experience is probably explainable because A) dream recall is notoriously unreliable…”
Actually, the unreliable part is the act of actually being able to recall the dream, not the content of the dream itself. This attempt at an explanation doesn’t answer the basic question.
“B) confirmation bias is a constant problem, especially in cases of individual experience…”
Confirmation Bias – a tendency to search for or interpret new information in a way that confirms one’s preconceptions and avoids information and interpretations which contradict prior beliefs.
I haven’t avoided any possible explanation. I’m waiting for someone to provide an intelligent explanation.
“C) there is an awful lot we don’t know about dreams, it might be that you were dreaming about an actual past event (without realizing it).”
How could I have been dreaming about an actual past event? That makes no sense whasoever! Are you saying I dreamed about something that actually happened to me in the past, but I forgot? WTF?
Sorry, but your attempt at replying to my post simply fails the test of simple logic.
Please explain how I could have had a dream about an event that was yet to occur, one that I had no knowledege of, and then days later have the events of the dream unfold EXACTLY as in the dream. Not “vaguely”, I’m talking about details, man.
My operative theory about my experience is that time as we define it is only a construct that is relevant to the physical dimension we find ourselves in.
The concept of time as we know it is not absolute. It is likely that we don’t even understand that there may actually be no time that passes at all. Our brains function in a linear fashion for the most part and scientifically we know that there are several biological “timers” in our heads. So it’s no surprise that we tend to discount alternative theories, given the extremely strong biological functions we operate by.
I think that it’s possible to get a glimpse of future events through the “mind’s eye”, if you will. The only way this could be possible at all is if there is another dimension to our lives. It’s obvious that it is physically impossible to see future events. So how is it that future events have been foretold?
In my case, I think that somehow I made a spiritual connection with an event that was yet to occur in conventional “linear” human terms.
So how could a physical brain accomplish this by itself?
tom,
Point taken. I will try not to speak in such presumptive terms.
I would like to listen to anyone here who has read up on the subject of near-death experiences.
People have had experiences of leaving their body for a relatively brief period of time and later describing things they had absolutely no way of seeing. An example from the book I mentioned was a person who was on an operating table in a hospital.
How can this be? If there is no soul, no spiritual essence of a person, how could they “see” emergency workers working on their own apparently lifeless bodies?
Tim,
Ok, please explain in more detail what happened. As I said earlier, we know almost nothing of what you’re presenting as evidence.
You said I’ve already tried to explain away your dream, but I previously said this:
Does that sound like someone trying to retreat into the comfort of ‘belief?’ Isn’t that how you’re trying to portray my post?
Indeed, point A doesn’t address the question by itself. It requires the context of the rest of the post to have more than a little meaning.
Also, this sentence makes no sense: “Actually, the unreliable part is the act of actually being able to recall the dream, not the content of the dream itself.”
I was trying to point out that people often cannot recall the details of their dreams after being awake for several hours. If you’re trying to refute that, then go ahead.
Again, Tim, until you explain the details of your dream we can’t provide you with an explanation.
One of the (many) operative theories of dreams is that they are an attempt of the mind to ‘replay’ past events in order to keep the memories of them around (http://tinyurl.com/4gh2a3). Given that I know so little about your experience, this is all conjecture. But it could be that there is some ritual that you occasionally do (‘ritual’ in the mundane sense, like brushing teeth or walking the dog). And your brain decided to keep a memory of that ritual by dreaming about it, but it put it in the context of the present rather than the past (in other words, it re-worded it). So, you had this dream about this ritual that you’ve done in the past, but you didn’t recognize it because the details were different enough due to the memory being re-worded. So when you carried out this ritual a few days later you didn’t realize it was very similar (in a broad sense) to something you had done in the past and the details were strikingly similar because your mind had re-formed the memory in the context of the present.
It could also be that you were inspired by your dream to carry out the action that you had dreamed about. If other people were deeply involved in this incident then we can discount this particular theory.
Another possible theory is that this incident is something that you were anxious or worried about (like the imminent breakup of a relationship, for example). So your brain decided to play through possible scenarios while you were dreaming. Naturally your brain would gravitate towards choosing actions that you are likely to take in real life, so when the incident occurred a few days later your brain did a good enough job of predicting your behavior that you thought you had seen the future. Coupled with Confirmation Bias and the fact that the details of dreams are difficult to recall, I think this is perfectly plausible.
But again, this is all conjecture until you explain the details.
That’s funny given that you just said this:
I’ve numbered the sentences so I can refer to them easily. I agree with #1, time is an abstract concept that is open to reinterpretation. Sentence #2 is highly questionable, I would like to see your argument that “no time … passes at all.” I wish you luck, you may start a paradigm shift in the scientific community.
As for #3, I have no idea what you mean by “our brains function in a linear fashion.”
And #4 is just brilliant. What that has to do with any of the rest of the paragraph is well outside of my ability to understand you. There is an awful lot we don’t understand about the brain, why would we be prejudiced against the possibility of learning more about it? There’s a big difference between not accepting unsubstantiated claims and being prejudiced against the supernatural.
It is still up to you to show that your mind operated contrary to our best understanding of physics, Tim. All we know is that something happened that you can’t personally explain without resorting to mysticism. That does not mean that there is no other possible explanation.
alatham,
O.K., no offense intended. I see that I should have taken more time to explain the dream and subsequent events.
Also, your other points are well taken.
The dream was about a blond girl by a waterfall. When I awakened the morning after the dream, I remembered that we were by a waterfall and that there was this fantastic feeling you first get when you are first attracted to someone. I remembered what the waterfall looked like and that we kissed. As I said previously, I just had the most wonderful feeling about it the next morning. I honestly didn’t think about it as I continued travelling with my parents to our ultimate destination, a guest ranch in Wyoming, which we reached a few days later.
As it turned out, there was a certain young woman my age who was working there that my Aunt (who was also working there) told me about. My Aunt relayed a not so subtle message that this girl was interested in meeting me.
Let me set the stage here for a minute. This guest ranch was and still is a very special place. It is way back in the Wyoming hills North of Cheyenne and when you arrive, you sense that time has stood still. On some of our hikes we discovered old covered wagons that had been abandoned where they broke down. It sits in a shallow valley backed by scrub brush covered hills.
One day soon after we arrived, the girl who I was introduced to said, “I have something I want to show you.” So we proceeded to hike back into the hills following a valley with what appeared to be a dry creekbed. After a bit we turned, hiked up a little ways, then turned and descended into a roughly circular enclosed area of rock. In front of us was a waterfall spilling down about 10 feet into a circular pool. Mind you, I had seen no evidence of any water when hiking in. I presumed the water continued underground past the pool.
We sat down and started to talk. I was attracted to this blond girl from Indiana and after a while we kissed. I can’t recall today exactly when my dream of a few days prior came flooding back in the most intense and prolonged Deja Vu experience I have ever had. My best recollection is that it occurred after we finally arose to leave. But when it hit, wow!
You have to understand – all the details I saw in my dream were exactly the same as the reality which unfolded days after having had the dream. The look of the waterfall and surrounding rock, the blond girl, the kisses, and much more.
There’s actually more to the story. I had to leave with my parents, but told her I would write. Several months later, I hitchhiked back to the ranch to see her. We spent a week together and during that time something else happened to me. Or rather, a premonition of a future event that was to happen came over me. As we were on one of our hikes, I told her I had a very strong feeling something was going to happen to me. I had no idea what it was, but I felt that it was going to be significant. There was no dread, just a certain knowledge that something was going to happen.
Ultimately, I had to leave. I returned home and started back to school for my senior year in high school. At that time I had no transportation so I often hitchhiked to school in the mornings.
One morning, I was picked up by a pretty average looking man in a dark van. We chatted for a minute then he simply asked me if I was a Christian. I told him I believed in God and all that, but he countered with a question about whether I was a believer in Jesus Christ as my savior. I said no.
He asked me if I wanted to become a believer. I said yes. All I did was accept the promise of salvation by believing that Jesus died for me -personally. All I had to do was believe, which I expressed in a prayer. I looked up, he stopped the van, I got out and that was it.
I will follow later with how this all changed my life.
ROTFLMAO. Tiny Tim had wet dream.
Throw it on the wood pile in the back yard and have a bonfire. That’s it, nothing more. A dead human is equal to a dead cockroach.
Donate organs? When I’m dying the last thing I need is having to worry about some greedy doctor harvesting my organs before I’m dead, or killing me to get the organs sooner.
Bobc,
Are you that worried about living for another 8 minutes?
By all means, do what you want with your organs, but I’ll never agree with you on this.
Tim,
That’s certainly an interesting dream. Had I ever experienced something like that I’d probably feel differently. But, as I stated at the outset, it’s an isolated personal experience. Personal experience is great for reinforcing those who are already convinced, but that’s never going to cut it with me. I mean no offense, but I can’t consider you an objective narrator. That is the root of the problem with personal experiences.
The circumstances certainly throw out any of my previous theories, but there’s still far too much doubt to accept a supernatural explanation as the only viable one. Perhaps your aunt had mentioned this girl to you in passing and you didn’t consciously remember. More simply, perhaps the details weren’t as exact as you remember and Confirmation Bias explains your experience. I know you claimed the details were exact, but I have no way to know this is certain. I’d have to take it on faith. I think you can understand my problem with doing that.
Then again, perhaps there was some supernatural experience involved. But, I can’t conclude that since there is no extraordinary evidence.
If that’s an example of me rejecting that which I am predisposed to reject, then so be it. You’re just as guilty of that for rejecting a natural explanation.
Alatham,
I’m not actually claiming that a supernatural explanation is the only one. I’m waiting for someone here to provide a scientific explanation. You haven’t attempted to provide one, so I’ll keep asking.
I think you may have missed the whole point of my relating the experience. It is obvious you would have to accept what I’m telling you is the truth. Human experience by it’s very nature is not something you reproduce in a lab!
If someone came to you and said they had something wonderful to share, but you would have to travel down the road a little ways to find it what would you say? “Oh no, I’m not budging an inch! You have to prove to me there really is something first!” Would you say, “You sir, are probably lying to me. Show me proof first, so that I will believe you.”
I do appreciate the fact you are at least open to the possibility I presented.
Tim:
& I submit that a commonality of experience is insufficient – no control groups, & anecdotal.
Mostly that fraud Casteneda, but yes. OBE’s are interesting, but did you know the body can be tricked into it?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/6960612.stm
Did you know the RV program was officially defunct decades ago? Why? IT DOESN’T WORK, that’s why.
I’ve had those too. Sadly, these usually end up being pretty mundane moments: sitting on a bench in a park, sitting on the crapper, etc.
The human brain is a computer, constantly churning out possible scenarios. Now, if you were able to say, win the lottery, save 100’s of lives, project your consciousness into an area 100’s of miles away (that you’ve never been to) & be able to describe it in precise detail, well, then I’d be willing to listen.
But of course, under these sort of empirical circumstances, this ‘ability’ mysteriously vanishes.
Every time. Or @ least when an actual skeptic’s about. Some rot about ‘disharmonic convergence’ disrupts the ‘astral ether’.
Odd, how none of these folks who lay claim to these ‘abilities’ are incapable of claiming the Randi prize.
KA,
“Did you know the RV program was officially defunct decades ago? Why? IT DOESN’T WORK, that’s why.”
No that’s not the case. It wasn’t that it wasn’t possible, just not reliable enough for government purposes.
Another explanation for Deja Vu is that you never had that first memory in the first place. For example, if you are in a city where you’ve never been before and see a distinctive building, while writing that data to a memory you might accidentally assign it a date that occurred in the past, even though it just occurred. Then you would access the memory and say “Whoa! I feel like I’ve been here before!” You might even try to figure out how you got this memory and rationalize that it must have been in a dream – a dream that predicted the future, you think!
This is a much less complicated explanation than time travel, supernaturally inspired visions, etc.
http://www.bad-language.com/remote
Chris B,
Yeah, trying to figure out what is actually happening during the experience is difficult.
Yours is an interesting theory.
In my case, the dream was remembered upon waking and the events in the dream were experienced in real life several days later. I knew I had had a dream when I awoke and when the events unfolded days later, they matched the dream exactly, hence the intensity of the Deja Vu.
As I related previously, I had never experienced a Deja Vu lasting more than a few seconds. This one lasted for a lot longer, perhaps minutes. There may have actually been several Deja Vus in succession, but I can’t recall.
Tim:
Real world translation: “Doesn’t work.”
Tim,
Earlier you were claiming this as evidence that supernatural things happen, weren’t you?
In order for it to count as evidence of the supernatural, the explanation has to be supernatural. So either the explanation is supernatural and it can count as evidence or the explanation is unclear and it does not count as evidence.
I’ve mentioned Confirmation Bias twice now and it still fits as a possible explanation. It has the advantage of being well-documented and at least partly understood.
As for the Remote Viewing government program, if they had found it increased their ability to predict even a tiny amount they would not have shut down the program. That kind of advantage would have immense potential. The CIA didn’t say “it didn’t work well enough,” the CIA said it didn’t work.