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	<title>Comments on: Bart Bows Out</title>
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	<description>A Blog of Atheist Thought</description>
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		<title>By: dogon3</title>
		<link>http://atheists.org/blog/2008/05/30/bart_bows_out/comment-page-3#comment-98109</link>
		<dc:creator>dogon3</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 13 Apr 2009 20:43:27 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>After more discussions with board members/state directors and other influential people at the 2009 Convention and Members&#039; Meeting, it grieves me to see that nothing good can come from lawsuits against the former President.  Ultimately, either one person will have her reputation ruined or the entire Board of Directors will.  In either case, I will be ashamed to be counted among the membership of Am Aths.

Eddie Tabash several years ago, said in a presentation that Atheists must support one another.  It holds true as well here as it would for political office, which is what Eddie was talking about in that instance.

If it weren&#039;t so bad for the organization, I could just become an amused onlooker to the spectacle, but because I would be accomplice by supporting a Board which continues in some sort of retribution against its former &quot;leader&quot;, I must cancel my membership in American Atheists, and never mention to outsiders that I was a member.

No one can win in this situation...because even a win for the Board of Directors would cast doubt on their choice of whom they hired.  If Ellen wins, it would cast doubt on the choice the Board made to sue her.

Based on my experience of the courts in this country, even a win wouldn&#039;t prove the correctness of the decision, but if the Board loses it could bring shame upon the entire organization in the court of public opinion.  This can&#039;t be good policy.  Apparently, they have decided to sue on principle instead of on what the ultimate outcome may be, and to sue means one will abide by the decision of the court, be that as arbitrary as it may be.

I must sign off here for the last time.  I have already resigned my membership, and don&#039;t intend to renew it under the leadership of this Board of Directors.  After 20 years hence, when most will be dead or will have resigned from that board, I will consider but not promise, to support this organization once again.  ...Bye</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>After more discussions with board members/state directors and other influential people at the 2009 Convention and Members&#8217; Meeting, it grieves me to see that nothing good can come from lawsuits against the former President.  Ultimately, either one person will have her reputation ruined or the entire Board of Directors will.  In either case, I will be ashamed to be counted among the membership of Am Aths.</p>
<p>Eddie Tabash several years ago, said in a presentation that Atheists must support one another.  It holds true as well here as it would for political office, which is what Eddie was talking about in that instance.</p>
<p>If it weren&#8217;t so bad for the organization, I could just become an amused onlooker to the spectacle, but because I would be accomplice by supporting a Board which continues in some sort of retribution against its former &#8220;leader&#8221;, I must cancel my membership in American Atheists, and never mention to outsiders that I was a member.</p>
<p>No one can win in this situation&#8230;because even a win for the Board of Directors would cast doubt on their choice of whom they hired.  If Ellen wins, it would cast doubt on the choice the Board made to sue her.</p>
<p>Based on my experience of the courts in this country, even a win wouldn&#8217;t prove the correctness of the decision, but if the Board loses it could bring shame upon the entire organization in the court of public opinion.  This can&#8217;t be good policy.  Apparently, they have decided to sue on principle instead of on what the ultimate outcome may be, and to sue means one will abide by the decision of the court, be that as arbitrary as it may be.</p>
<p>I must sign off here for the last time.  I have already resigned my membership, and don&#8217;t intend to renew it under the leadership of this Board of Directors.  After 20 years hence, when most will be dead or will have resigned from that board, I will consider but not promise, to support this organization once again.  &#8230;Bye</p>
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		<title>By: what</title>
		<link>http://atheists.org/blog/2008/05/30/bart_bows_out/comment-page-1#comment-83607</link>
		<dc:creator>what</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">#comment-83607</guid>
		<description>Dave&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Bart&#039;s apology was very sincere. He expressed regret for his actions and took responsibility for the harm caused. I would like to see such sincerity from the other board members. So you say:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;blockquote&gt; However, I think it&#039;s a bit of an overstatement to say this one incident (the Bill Moore March) caused the firing. There were a lot of problems here, and most of them still exist. &lt;/blockquote&gt; Three points: (1) You have said in the past that you are not in-the-loop and are acting only in your capacity as spokesperson. But your post is sounding in-the-loopy to me. (2) If the Moore walk is not the problem then what is? (3) If the Moore walk was the problem and it was Bart that precipitated this mess then when will Ellen be reinstated?&lt;br /&gt;
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dave</p>
<p>Bart&#8217;s apology was very sincere. He expressed regret for his actions and took responsibility for the harm caused. I would like to see such sincerity from the other board members. So you say:</p>
<blockquote><p> However, I think it&#8217;s a bit of an overstatement to say this one incident (the Bill Moore March) caused the firing. There were a lot of problems here, and most of them still exist. </p></blockquote>
<p> Three points: (1) You have said in the past that you are not in-the-loop and are acting only in your capacity as spokesperson. But your post is sounding in-the-loopy to me. (2) If the Moore walk is not the problem then what is? (3) If the Moore walk was the problem and it was Bart that precipitated this mess then when will Ellen be reinstated?</p>
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		<title>By: alatham</title>
		<link>http://atheists.org/blog/2008/05/30/bart_bows_out/comment-page-1#comment-83610</link>
		<dc:creator>alatham</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Thank you, Bart.  I would still like to hear other people&#039;s views regarding the last few months though.  But this piece of information is nice to have.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thank you, Bart.  I would still like to hear other people&#8217;s views regarding the last few months though.  But this piece of information is nice to have.</p>
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		<title>By: karen</title>
		<link>http://atheists.org/blog/2008/05/30/bart_bows_out/comment-page-1#comment-83613</link>
		<dc:creator>karen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">#comment-83613</guid>
		<description>Dave&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I agree with What that you do sound very much &quot;in-the-loop&quot;. If there are other problems that are still present with Ellen gone, and now Bart gone, maybe the whole board needs to be replaced. That would be quite a task, wouldn&#039;t it? In any event, it&#039;s looking more and more like we need Ellen back. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I also agree that Bart&#039;s apology seems sincere and I think he has learned something about himself and his relationship with Ellen in this process. Perhaps the two of them could shake hands, be adults and agree to let bygones be and start fresh?&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
This is an opportunity to rework what needs to be fixed. Rewrite by-laws if need be. Fix term limits.  Set up rules/standards of communication. I don&#039;t know what all needs to be done because you refuse to let us in on what the problems are. I don&#039;t understand why it needs to be such a big secret. Are there ways some of us out here in blogland can help, or does one have to be in the NJ proximity to be of service? </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dave</p>
<p>I agree with What that you do sound very much &#8220;in-the-loop&#8221;. If there are other problems that are still present with Ellen gone, and now Bart gone, maybe the whole board needs to be replaced. That would be quite a task, wouldn&#8217;t it? In any event, it&#8217;s looking more and more like we need Ellen back. </p>
<p>I also agree that Bart&#8217;s apology seems sincere and I think he has learned something about himself and his relationship with Ellen in this process. Perhaps the two of them could shake hands, be adults and agree to let bygones be and start fresh?</p>
<p>This is an opportunity to rework what needs to be fixed. Rewrite by-laws if need be. Fix term limits.  Set up rules/standards of communication. I don&#8217;t know what all needs to be done because you refuse to let us in on what the problems are. I don&#8217;t understand why it needs to be such a big secret. Are there ways some of us out here in blogland can help, or does one have to be in the NJ proximity to be of service?</p>
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		<title>By: quantum_flux</title>
		<link>http://atheists.org/blog/2008/05/30/bart_bows_out/comment-page-1#comment-83614</link>
		<dc:creator>quantum_flux</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">#comment-83614</guid>
		<description>I still believe that the Bill Moore walk had much more to do with an outdated ideal of ending racial segregation (it&#039;s already gone in the US) than eliminating the estabolishment of religion in government affairs or promoting the liberties of atheism in America.  Basically, the Bill Moore walk was an uncecessary PR stunt for American Atheists.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I still believe that the Bill Moore walk had much more to do with an outdated ideal of ending racial segregation (it&#8217;s already gone in the US) than eliminating the estabolishment of religion in government affairs or promoting the liberties of atheism in America.  Basically, the Bill Moore walk was an uncecessary PR stunt for American Atheists.</p>
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