Religion is a stupid idea. We all know it, but we rarely say it. Not that only stupid people are religious, but that religion is a stupid idea that is sometimes believed by smart people due mainly to an effort to escape their own mortality. It’s true that religion is stupid, it’s also true that it’s politically incorrect to say so. My opinion is that we’ve been nice for the past several years (“I respect your beliefs even though I disagree”), and it’s time to be a little honest. What say ye?
semovera,
If cancer going into remission is an example of a miracle, then I would say you are indeed hiding behind nebulous definitions since cancer going into remission does not break any of the laws of nature. Your example of a blind person suddenly gaining sight would indeed be compelling, however (depending on the reason behind their blindness, of course).
You’ve defined ‘miracle’ to be no different from “something science can’t currently explain.” By that definition, miracles happen all the time. But that is not what we typically mean by ‘miracle.’
If we define a miracle as it would normally be defined (from answers.com) “An event that appears inexplicable by the laws of nature and so is held to be supernatural in origin,” then the answer to that question is “maybe, what evidence do you have?”
I’m also not sure what you mean by “laws of science.” Science attempts to explain and describe the laws of nature, it does not dictate the laws.
Actually, you do, but you can only do it on the strength of your arguments. If you’re not here to make arguments, then that’s perfectly acceptable. I, for one, truly appreciate a theist who shows up and asks honest questions. Thank you. I’ll get to your other post in a few minutes.
My friend, I’m calling it a night, but will definately be back tommorrow. I’m going to go spend some time with the wife. Have a good one.
semovera,
The argument you are quoting breaks down in the third step:
First, I’ve never heard of the moral argument for the existence of a deity. My guess is that it makes the claim that morality comes from theism, and therefore morality proves a deities existence. If that’s the argument, then someone has to show that it’s impossible that morality can exist without a deity. Given that Natural Selection provides a straightforward explanation for the existence of morality, this particular argument fails.
For an excellent reference, see this page:
http://www.ebonmusings.org/atheism/index.html
In particular, the essay “The Ineffable Carrot and the Infinite Stick” (which is, unfortunately, very long) lays out a rationale for an absolute atheistic morality.
For a refutation of the Cosmological Argument, read the section titled “Scientific Positions” here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cosmological_argument
For a refutation of the Teleological Argument, read “Complexity does not imply design” here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teleological_argument
I’m sorry to simply link you to those refutations, but those two arguments have been beaten to death and I have no desire to debate them myself any more.
I would also disagree with step 6:
I have yet to see a compelling argument that Jesus even existed in the first place, let alone one that he was a deity.
Because of those doubts, the rest of the argument means nothing to me.
semovera
What is your definition of truth? Is it your intention to use the words true and truth as synonyms? If so then you should be aware that you are implicitly contradicting yourself without knowing it.
semovera
Your “argument” above is just if12 -> 0.
Those are good refutations of the arguments for God, but there are also a great deal of scientists and intellectuals that would disagree with those refutations. I could provide links and such if you are interested, but I imagine that you have seen these arguments and formed your own conclusions. Look, the bottom line is that it does in the end require a step (or a leap for some) of faith to put your trust in something that you can’t see or even fully understand. I am more than willing to admit that. Belief for me comes down to trusting that my mind can only take me to certain limits being that I am a limited being. God states that His ways are higher than mine and I have faith that this is true. Not blind faith as many would believe, (even though at times I have had to take that leap too), but a faith rooted in the confirmation of His promises in my own life. It is akin to the concept of a child and an adult. In many fashions, the ways of an adult are higher than those of a child (at least in the intellectual sense). Using a simplistic example, if an adult tells a child that eating vegetables is good for them and will help them to grow strong, left to their own devices a great number of children will reject this wisdom from the “higher power” because it doesn’t make sense and it can’t be proven. After all, vegetables taste bad and they cause serious pain and suffering (to a child anyway). I know some will argue and say ah ha, but it can be proven that veggies are good. Yes, it can be proven if you want it to be proven. These days, one can find just about anything to support their point of view from very credible sources. If we dissect it enough, don’t we have to have a certain level of faith to believe that scientists and astronomers know what they are talking about. That the scientific method is credible. Contrary to what has been said earlier, I respectfully disagree. I think that atheism is in fact a belief that requires faith, and not the default human mind set. I also believe that only one of us can be right. I believe in absolute truth. I know it is admittedly narrow. But that this is the nature of the beast. I also wanted to respond to a comment made earlier stating that religion shackles the mind and hardens the heart. My relationship with Christ has brought about the polar opposite.
It’s not bigotry, if you are in polically correct about something that is false or does not exist. You cannot be a bigot to a mermaid or harry potter, GET OVER IT.
A break-down of how you came to this conclusion would be nice: that way we can show you where you’re wrong rather than merely telling you that you’re wrong.
Semovera,
First, “God” doesn’t state anything to you, your religion acts as an intermediary to tell you what God is saying. Whether or not your religion is actually speaking on behalf of a deity hasn’t been shown and until it does, there is no reason to believe so.
Second, why do you have this faith? If you have no rational and demonstrable reasoning then you do indeed suffer from having blind faith.
Until you have some evidence that your deity exists, the simplest explanation is that you are being manipulated by religious leaders either out of ignorance, or for their own personal goals (or, more likely, a combination of the two).
In the absence of any way to prove either theory, the simplest theory is the most rational (because it is the least irrational).
The source is never as important as the actual data or reasoning behind the statement being made. Making an argument based on the reputation behind the source of the argument is called an Appeal to Authority and is just as much a logical fallacy as the Leap to Conclusions, the Equivocation Fallacy, or the Argument from Ignorance.
No, we do not. Good science provides research and is very transparent about the testing processes involved in the conclusions that individual scientists draw. We do not have to rely on anything that scientists say, we can look at the evidence ourselves and come to our own conclusion.
We can only come to a consensus when that has been done by many independent people who haven’t been comparing notes along the way. You are always free (as a scientist) to disagree with consensus, but you need to provide a solid rationale for doing so. This is how the scientific community continually ‘culls the herd.’ Never does it require faith in what any scientist has concluded.
The scientific method has been tested every time that a scientific process has been used to gain predictive knowledge. If you deny the scientific method, then you deny the only known path you have to discovery aside from blind chance.
If you want evidence that the scientific method is reliable, then ask yourself this: How many useful inventions have been made through other methods? How does that compare to the number of useful inventions made through a rigorous testing method?
This is now the third time you’ve said this without providing a rationale for your belief. If you can’t provide one, then at least refute the argument that I have presented above. If you can’t do either of those, then I think that’s pretty good evidence that your mind has indeed been shackled.
Its cool if you think I’m wrong, I have no problem with that. Again, I’m not an atheist and thus will probably never have a full understanding of the atheist mind set. In the same vein, those who do not have a relationship or belief in Jesus Christ are also operating from a limited perspective in terms of understanding the ins and outs of what it (Christianity) is all about. At the end of the day, as I’ve stated in an earlier post, the evidence is there on both sides of the argument (complete with data and reasoning). The way that one interprets this evidence is another story.
But hey, its been insightful speaking to you all here. I can honestly say that I have learned a lot about albeit maybe not fully understood the atheist mind set. Alatham, your analysis of the scientific method is strong…very sharp indeed. A lot of those points actually support my beliefs. When it comes to religion though, I believe (I could be wrong) you have made a couple of assumptions.
I will be the first person to tell you that my faith in Jesus Christ is based on need. Unlike a lot of professing Christians and atheists or people in general, I am not under the illusion that I am a good person. I will tell you that I am Christian and fully deserve to go to Hell. I would also like to say that I am not suffering from some sort of guilty conscience syndrome where I unreasonably feel like I’m just this horrible human being. Like most will say, I haven’t killed anyone or gone to jail, so its not some self-pity party that I’m trying to sell you here. The things is, I know my thoughts, my motives, the secrets that I will take to the grave as I’m sure that you have as well. Does my good outweigh the bad, sure but that does not make me good. It just makes me less bad. On my best day, I can never be perfect. My friend, I need Jesus. Not because of the pie in the sky, but because of who He is and what He represents. Man, what He has done in my life is unexplainable. As a matter of fact, what He has done is downright illogical. This is personal testimony. You can dismiss me as a fanatic or a lunatic, or ignorant, and that’s cool too. Truly, I’m sure you have read the Bible, but I encourage you to read it and use your mind (its obvious that God has blessed you with a strong mind) to explore the possibility. I mean if you could wrap your mind just around just the possibility, what do you have to lose? Ask yourself, could it at least be possible?
I’d prefer you did have a problem with my thinking you’re wrong because then you might want to do something about it: arguing for your position or accepting the validity of mine.
I attend church services with my parents twice on Sunday and again on Wednesday so I hope you’ll pardon me if I am amused at your expence.
If there were any other way to interpret the evidence, of what use would faith be?
Incorrect. Its a matter of numbers: the good of the many over the good of the one. If I were put in a similar situation, say my life for the lives of all the inmates in America’s prison system, the choice is obvious: I would be dead in a heart-beat.
Besides, Jesus didn’t make much of a sacrifice did he? A temporarly (albeit painful) death? And then he gets to sit at the right hand of God for eternity? Hell, that’s not even a tough choice, that’s a steal.
semovera,
[Emphasis added]
First post:
[Note the initial setup here, that is, christianity is the goal.]
Continuing:
We understand your goal asshole!
You are a special christian just like all the rest, self-centered, deceptive and, disgusting. You are the REAL christian; dishonest.
Not mad mind you, simply showing that your tactics are not only; not effective, deceptive and, disgusting but also paint the true nature of the christian god-idea.
[Quackery that amounts to --- trying to prove his god-idea exists outside of his mind.]
Shifting responsibility to an unknown third party, possibly the notably absent christian god-thing.
That is not the point. The point is that the fantasy you believe can only survive if it is supported by deception and insertion of statements such as, “that isn’t intended to be taken literally” when the christian discovers something that it doesn’t like.
Ending with this:
Followed by your lastest comment which I am sure was your original intent. I am sure because the mode of operation is exactly the same as all the other christians. Use deception to feign interest in your prey. Pretend to be interested in the comments made by the prey. Close the deal by stating that you have some special sauce that cannot be had without belief in fantasy. Used with liberal amounts of fear mongering.
semovera, you are just another disgusting, deceptive christian like all the rest.
Suck it, jeesus christ, already.
In response to knowledge is power,
Why should I have to argue for my position. Again, the evidence is there if you look for it. It is well publicized and speaks for itself. Even ardent atheists such as Antony Flew can attest to this. Maybe, your atheistic mind set is more volitional than anything else. I could be wrong tough. As far as attending church services, my friend that is awesome, however, attending church does not make one a Christian. I am willing to bet that some that I have had dialogue with on this site are more “Christian” than those who attend church. Going to church is an outward act, but it does not mean that you walk the walk, according to the words of Jesus. And for the last point, again you underestimate the God of the Bible. It is not a matter of numbers, it is a matter of a being highly superior to us in every way shape and form stooping down to a “lower level,” and then suffering a humiliating death, fully knowing that the majority of the very people He created would reject what He did. It would be akin to you turning into an ant, living your life as an ant just so that a few could be everything that they were supposed to be. I use a very simplistic example, but hopefully you see where I’m coming from. For Christians, the sacrifice is not trivial, nor is it a steal…it is downright unfathomable.
semovera,
The atheist mindset really is as simple as this: Atheists are unconvinced (i.e. they don’t believe) that a deity exists. Any other political, social, or moral thoughts that run through an atheist’s mind are unrelated to atheism and are not part of the atheist mindset.
Well, given that there are thousands of different flavors of Christianity (some mutually contradictory), I would venture a guess that no one has an understanding of what Christianity is all about. It’ far too scattershot for anyone to comprehend fully.
Well, no, not really. There is no evidence in favor of atheism. There is simply a lack of evidence for a deity, ergo we default to atheism.
Any time someone comes up with a new argument for a deity, all atheists can do is refute it. As I’ve already said, there is likely no way to prove that a deity doesn’t exist.
Thank you.
How so?
I wouldn’t be surprised either, and I’ll be the first to apologize if it would be helpful, but I can’t do that unless you point out any errors I may have made.
Actually, I would say that it does.
I know you said you aren’t suffering from some guilt syndrome, but it certainly seems that way.
If you wanted to explain why you think you’re a bad person, perhaps we could try to convince you otherwise? I’m all for helping people out if they want it, but if you’re content to go on believing that, then I won’t press the issue.
I have nothing to lose from entertaining ideas within my mind, and trust me, I have entertained the possibility of a deity plenty of times.
I don’t know. How can we find out?
Rna2Dna,
My friend I have no problem with you not believing what I believe. I also don’t have any special sauce or cure-all for life’s ills. Heck man, I already told you that I am in no way some sort of moral beacon of excellence. Deceptive, yeah I’ll admit sometimes I can be very deceptive and disgusting too. Thats real man…I can’t even begin to describe the depths. Take it at face value, I really do not have any interest in trying to sneak up on you or anybody for that matter. You are probably an intelligent, educated adult. I don’t need to peddle or sell my beliefs. They are what they are, just like yours. Christianity is not a goal or a multi-level marketing scheme, where I get some kind of commission for recruiting members. I wanted to make a distinction as to what I believed so that I could be clear with where I stood. Thats it man, nothing more nothing less.
I’ll get back with you guys a little later, if not definitely tomorrow. Duty calls. If I offended anyone, I apologize. Peace!!!
Semovera
After all of your posts I do not understand what motivates you to post here. Did you just come here to tell us that you, someone that we do not know, are a xian? We know xians exist.
http://secweb.infidels.org/?kiosk=articles&id=369
Anthony Flew seems very conflicted in his personal beliefs and does not lend credence to your assertion that there is any evidence for the existence of a god, much less the christian god. Especially considering that he has become a Deist, not a christian. Regardless, appeals to authority are somewhat less than persuasive.
‘Maybe’ is a funny word. Maybe you’re male; maybe you’re female; maybe you beat your wife.
Nor do I wish to be called one. Your statement was that those who are atheists:
As I am an atheist who also regularly attends church services, clearly this is not the case for me in particular. I would also go so far as to say that many atheists who choose to discuss theology with theists also understand the intricacies of christian ideology: it is necessary to be effective.
You are certainly not the first to have said so.
You misunderstand my meaning: I do not attend church services for the sake of outward appearances (anyone who cares to ask know that I am an atheist), I go because I want to know why christians believe.
He didn’t lose anything: he’s still god, he’s still alive, and he’s still in dominion over the earth. That doesn’t constitute a sacrifice.
Religion isn’t just for gullible people afraid of their own mortality, it’s a staple for those in need of an identity and community. Look at how jews have brainwashed their kids into believing that no matter what they believe, no matter what their religion, no matter what their nationality, no matter what their race, that they are of an elite race, ethnicity and nationality.
Even Dave Silverman reveals his loyalty to this delusion and fear of being rejected by “jews” if he rejects this part of jewish dogma.
It may be politically incorrect to criticize religion, but jew forbid you say anything critical of judaism or zionism. When members did so Dave went off the deep end calling people “anti-semites” and “holocaust deniers” along with numerous other insults in an attempt to demonize anyone who treated judaism the same way Dave treats Islam or christianity.
If it’s time to be honest, Dave needs to be honest with himself and his own hypocrisy.
i will be the first to admit that religion is flawed… and in its long life might have cased more bad than good. religion is man made, therefore it is flawed.
where you all get it twisted is that you think that everyone whom is spiritual is religious. this could not be further from the truth.
as for me, i have a relationship the Lord and i do not attend church.
so where does that leave me… take the bible away, the relationship remains the same… what would you call me then.
one with no written rules, but lead by the spirit.
so… i thought this site would be ALOT more interesting, not just a bunch of bitter mf’ers bitchin because the rest of the world doesnt think like them.
YOU DONT BELIEVE IN ANYTHING. WHAT IS THE POINT OF TALKING ABOUT IT. SERIOUSLY, GET OFF YOUR ASS AND DO SOMETHING INSTEAD OF SITTIN ON YOUR COMPUTER WITH UR THUMBS UP YOUR ASSES THINKING OF SOME CYNICAL ASS SHIT TO SAY TO PEOPLE WHO ARE TRYING TO HAVE A REAL INTELLECTUAL CONVERSATION (NOT DEBATE).
PEACE
dmwilson,
Having a bad day are we?
To answer your civil questions:
Religion is a subset of spirituality? I can accept that. I’m not sure where the line is – but it’s not unreasonable on the face of it.
Assuming you identify yourself as a Christian, a lot of xians do not attend a church – they are still however xians. Xianity is a (or perhaps many) religion, therefore that would make you religious.
Taking the bible away is not the same as never having had the bible in the first place. The book in question has likely had a significant influence on your eventually selection of a religion. The decision point was likely reached after prolonged exposure to the bible throughout your formative years. Removing the book after the fact is not going to make much difference.
The rules are a part of the dogma that forms your version of xianity. You, and all xians, are forced to pick and choose the biblical rules they follow (and would like others to follow).
Obviously I am assuming a lot of facts about your experience here, and take it as given that some or all may not apply in your particular circumstance.
Are you too virtuous to spell out the term mother fuckers? Please let one of us bitter atheists take your sin upon our shoulders. Our pleasure – and no crucifixion required
dmwilson
Thank you for admitting that religion is man-made and flawed. Now if you will just go to the next step and realize that god is also man-made, you’ll be in our ball park.
So you have a relationship with the lord? Did the lord make you scream at us? I will admit, I am sitting at my computer, mother fucker that I am, but I do not have my thumbs up my ass. I use them for typing, you see. Plus, I fuck my mother with these hands. Though she probably wouldn’t care how sanitary they are, seeing how she’s been dead since ’99.
So sorry we’ve disappointed you with our propensity toward debate. What was it you wanted to converse about? If you posted something, I must have missed it. (Probably busy fucking Mom again, poor Dear.) Was it the spirituality thing? Well I’d say that still puts you in the religious ball park, hon. That and the whole “relationship with the lord” kind of seals the deal.
PEACE! (I shouted it back to you, in case you’re just hard of hearing or you have your hands over your ears and you’re going LALALALALA!)