A number of e-mails and comments have been received criticizing the Board of Directors of American Atheists for its dismissal of Ellen Johnson as President. Acting President Frank Zindler has been answering at least some of these critics as time has allowed.In reply to one person who suggested that the dismissal was rash, precipitous, or even without cause, Zindler replied:
“Thank you for writing to American Atheists concerning the dismissal of President Ellen Johnson. Please be assured that this was not an action that was taken lightly or without an immense amount of agonizing on the part of all members of the board. Two special meetings of the Boards of Directors of American Atheists, Inc., and its four affiliated American Atheists corporations were held for the purpose of allowing Ms. Johnson to discuss policies concerning which she and the boards disagreed. For reasons known only to Ms. Johnson, she did not take part in those meetings and did nothing to resolve the issues in question. Consequently, at a third special meeting of the boards, a majority of the directors felt it their fiduciary responsibility to remove Ms. Johnson from the office of President, although she has not been removed from membership on the boards themselves.”
Several critics have argued that it was unfair or even treacherous to dismiss Ms. Johnson while on her civil-rights march to Mississippi. Zindler’s reply was
“Concerning Ms. Johnson’s ‘Bill Moore March’ through Alabama and Mississippi, I must inform you that this was carried out without the sponsorship of American Atheists, Inc. For complex legal reasons, the Board of Directors had instructed her not to do that in any way that would give the impression that the action was an official activity of American Atheists, Inc.”
Several of Zindler’s letters have contained the following paragraph:
“I hope you will understand that most of the members of the boards of directors are seasoned Atheists with long experience in American Atheists, Inc., going back to an early period in the career of Madalyn Murray O’Hair. We care deeply for the organization she founded and wish to see it prosper. We honor her memory and seek by all legal means available to advance her cause — the cause of Atheist civil liberties, separation of state and church, and the liberation of the human mind. We feel now more than ever that this is the most important Atheist organization in America — not only in what it is trying to do but also in what it is in fact doing.”
One writer has even alleged that the boards dismissed Ellen for reasons of power or personal gain, to which Zindler replied:
“Your assertion that the Board dismissed Ms. Johnson ‘for seemingly no better reason that to exercise power’ is particularly troubling, as it presumes either that we acted out of whim — i.e., with no compelling reason of fiduciary responsibility — or that we somehow will enjoy personal gain from this painful action. I cannot expect you to believe that we did in fact have important reasons of fiduciary responsibility for the simple reason that I am not at liberty to tell you what those were. However, as for the second assumption — that of personal gain from exercise of power — I would have you know that all the Directors of the Board serve without salary, as do the Secretary and Treasurer. Although Ms. Johnson as President did receive a very modest salary, as Acting President I am serving without pay — as I have done for 13 years as Managing Editor of American Atheist Press (itself a full-time job). “I will be Acting President probably for only five or six months, until a new President can be selected. Nevertheless, I hope you will stay with us and help us in our fight against the forces of ignorance and superstition — not only through my brief tenure in an office I never sought, but also into the future with whomever succeeds me.”
Zindler also has expressed gratitude for Ellen’s accomplishments in many of his replies, for example “I agree with you perhaps more than you can appreciate that Ellen Johnson has been a brilliant and effective leader of the Atheist movement and has made many extremely important contributions to the cause of reason, Atheist civil liberties, and separation of state and church.”
Wow, how unprofessional to post all this crap on the blog. You guys need to get your shit together.
alatham,
How right you are (on both counts)!
dumbgal,
I’ll repeat myself here. You are a loon.
And being of the female persuasion, I don’t have any (drum roll) misogyny, unconscious or otherwise.
smartgal,
None. But you need a lot more evidence to start claiming that it’s a result of misogyny rather than either a simple failure to reach out to women, or inherent disinterest amongst women.
Women have far more active battles to fight with society than mere atheism. In my limited experience, atheist activists tend to be white males (myself included). I consider that a commentary on the fact that white males don’t have any other overriding social ills to battle. Women have enough on their plate (feminism, which I wholeheartedly support, though I have a feeling you won’t care) without being atheist activists as well.
Don’t attribute to malice that which you can attribute to laziness.
Simple accusations do not make your case without evidence. Show me some evidence and I will support you. Continue to scream “Persecution!” without any evidence and most of us will continue to ignore you.
I’ll respond to this particular attack once I’m done beating my girlfriend. I’m kind of busy at the moment.
When president John McCain increases government subsidies to churches, mandates religion in public classrooms, bans the theory of evolution, posts the 10 commandments in every courthouse, post office, and police station in America, and declares us atheists to be the scum of the earth, some of you will still be completely wrapped up in your little flame wars.
Is there anyone left who is still focused on changing the world for the better?
Focus on what is important or fight your silly little flame wars on craigslist!
alatham,
Chris B is right.
I appreciate your sense of humor in dealing with a sensitive topic. I’m signing off now; don’t want to deal with the Nazi butches butting in on this thread. ‘Bye.
I guess Mr. Meltzer could use a proof-reader, “The biggest one is her refusal to accept the fact that the board had waken up after thirteen years of sleeping and was ready to start acting as a board.”
“had waken up”? You meant “waked” or woken” I am sure. Or “awakened”.
I can’t comment on the inner workings of AA, but I’ve never felt unwelcome in athiest groups/blogs etc. In fact I’ve felt that, overall, athiest men seem to be more enlightened about women’s issues than the average “god-fearing” man. Perhaps because IMHO they’re educated to the inherent mysogny in the Abrahamic religions, and they reject not only the religion, but it’s anti-female doctrine (that has severly tainted humanity) as well.
Have any of you other gals felt unwelcome?
cry4turtles
I’ve never felt unwelcome on this or any other atheist blog. I’ve not made it to any conventions, so I can’t speak to the feeling of being with the group in person. There are no groups where I live, so, this virtual communication is pretty much the extent of my atheist outreach. Although I have recently discovered two other people I know who are humanists.
My feeling has been like yours, that atheist men are more enlightened, both about women’s issues and about accepting women as equal partners in life. I personally doubt Ellen’s situation with the board had anything to do with misogyny. I think smartgal is offbase with her allegations there.
…and as an atheist man, I’d like to point out that we appreciate an enlightened woman who is accepting of a man as an equal partner in life and is enlightened about men’s issues(we have them).
Unfortunately, you’re a minority among atheists.
I’ve always had the opinion, and I’ve expressed it to Ellen, that her gender was her most valuable asset to her position. In the religious world, women are usually the driving force behind religious practice within the family. These ignorant stooges have too much authority over developing minds.
Who better than another woman to deliver the message, “Grow up”?
This current thread brings up a whole new topic here–misogyny in Atheist organizations–when this thread should really be about Ellen’s dismissal and I don’t want to dilute that topic.
I will say, though, there is probably less misogyny within the Atheist community than in religious communities (especially the notorious polygamous Mormons, who keep women as virtual baby-producing slaves)but, make no mistake, it is subtly here too.
I don’t say this angrily or blamingly, just a bit sadly. It is hard to totally eradicate a mind-set and we may have to wait until the next generations, I think, to effect better acceptance of gender equality.
For one example of the subtlety of gender discrimination, let me cite the person who posted here on this blog that he felt–and told Ellen– that her gender was her biggest asset as leader of AA. Tell me,sir, would you say that to Frank or Conrad? Would you go to Conrad and say, I think your best asset here as administrator is that you are a male?
I rest my case.
Smartgal
I don’t see the misogyny on this blog or in connection with Ellen’s firing. Matador’s opinion about Ellen’s gender as an “asset to her position” (or even her biggest asset) is not necessarily misogyny. I don’t know whether his assessment is true or not but what if it is? I have always thought of her gender as being AN asset albeit not her greatest one.
I think I made it abundantly clear as to why I made that statement regarding gender.
Actually, I probably didn’t call it her “biggest” asset when I told her that. I did note that I considered it advantageous.
Ellen understands that I’m quite sensitive as to how gender plays a role in communications – and how eliminating the gender gap can build bridges w/ other women. I doubt she took offense.
If you wish to keep harping on it, be my guest – you’ll only come off as hyper-sensitive. It is an anthropological fact that the sexes think and communicate differently.
If that is misogyny, then it is also misandry.
You are the one who keeps bringing up the topic of misogyny. It seems to be the central theme to your life. Sorry that you have had such bad experiences (or whatever has caused your obsession), but it is certainly a red herring in the middle of this discussion.
Bart,
This is from Gil and Jeanne Gaudia.
We want to take you up on your call for everyone to start working together in order to get American Atheists back on track. Therefore we would be willing to resume our volunteer work with Ellen (and any board members we can assist, in any way we can) in order to return to the status quo ante. If Arthur needs help or Rachael, and we can do it via email or telephone, we would be happy to offer this service, without compensation (as it has always been) in an effort to spark a resumption of business as usual.
Sincerely,
Gil and Jeanne
Smartgal,
Courageously, couragely (whatever).
What has happened has happened. Now it is time to stop bickering among ourselves and start moving towards mending. This is OUR organization and we need to pull together to make it work. Volunteer your time, money, positive suggestions and support.
When somebody leaves an organization that has a key, it is standard practice to change the locks. (That is in reference to an earlier comment). It is also common practice to fire an employee who makes public statements about areas that he is privy to without consent, so don?t be surprised if we hear that Arthur got fired.
I think it is great that Bart stepped forward and made a statement.
Frank is our President for the moment and therefore I will give him my support and confidence.
i hope that as frank and the board move forward they will consider that quality not quantity is more important.i could care less if FFRF is bigger as long as we are well managed.
RedLilac
In my experience reconciliation is usually accompanied by openness. Many of us are demanding it and will vote with our feet if we don’t get. Atheists are generally not known for there willingness to suck it up and fall in line.
Maybe Zindler and the Board can explain to us what the new direction they plan is. Where is this great new improved program?
From Matador: “If you wish to keep harping on it, be my guest – you’ll only come off as hyper-sensitive. It is an anthropological fact that the sexes think and communicate differently.”
———-
Matador, I wish you wouldn’t use emotionally charged words like “harping” and “hyper-sensitive.” I like to think that I was GENTLY hinting, and hopefully opening some eyes to a problem that is there (sometimes it’s called the glass ceiling problem)and pointing out that this problem was undoubtedly a factor in this AA fracas.
I would appreciate it if you did not engage in namecalling or blaming the victim or saying that I must be eliciting misogyny myself by something I am saying or doing. Perpetrators always blame the victim.
Interesting that my suggestion that the AA Board of Directors may have been influenced by misogyny in dealing with Ellen was slapped down as being a figment of my imagination, even though it turned out to be corroborated by Arthur Brenner.
And just for the record, Matador, physiologists have found that there is no difference whatsoever between the female brain and the male brain structurally or functionally. If you put a disembodied female brain beside a disembodied male brain, you will not be able to tell which is male and which is female.
The sexes do indeed “think and communicate differently” but that is cultural. Women have been taught to think and communicate differently. And males have been taught to be in command. Perhaps this will change in future generaions.
It’s easy to say, if you are a male, that there’s no misogyny in Atheist organizations. That’s because you don’t experience it. Or if you are an isolated female whose contact with organizational psychodynamics is limited, you may not have been subjected to the many forms of misogyny we experience in the workworld. Those of us who are, or have been, in the corporate world or have worked in any medium-to-large organization in any decision-making capacity, know that misogyny has not been irradicated in the workplace and that we have to deal with it, sometimes to our disadvantage.
Your assurances that atheist men are not misogynistic, or perhaps less so than other male groups, may be wishful thinking, and I share your wish. However, my experience–and I work very closely with top male leaders in the atheist movement–is that Atheist men, especially those of an older generation, have a long way to go before they are free from misogyny.
I am hoping that perhaps some of these atheist men will read this and at least think about it and examine their deepest attitudes about the place of women. I know they will deny that they are misogynistic themselves and say, Oh no, NOT ME, my attitude toward Ellen has nothing to do with her being a [beautiful, competent] woman whom I might need to control, put down, override, punish, show who’s boss. Oh no,it’s not that!
Ri-i-i-ght.
From Matador: “If you wish to keep harping on it, be my guest – you’ll only come off as hyper-sensitive. It is an anthropological fact that the sexes think and communicate differently.”
———-
Matador, I wish you wouldn’t use emotionally charged words like “harping” and “hyper-sensitive.” I like to think that I was GENTLY hinting, and hopefully opening some eyes to a problem that is there (sometimes it’s called the glass ceiling problem)and pointing out that this problem was undoubtedly a factor in this AA fracas.
I would appreciate it if you did not engage in namecalling or blaming the victim or saying that I must be eliciting misogyny myself by something I am saying or doing. Perpetrators always blame the victim.
Interesting that my suggestion that the AA Board of Directors may have been influenced by misogyny in dealing with Ellen was slapped down as being a figment of my imagination, even though it turned out to be corroborated by Arthur Brenner.
And just for the record, Matador, physiologists have found that there is no difference whatsoever between the female brain and the male brain structurally or functionally. If you put a disembodied female brain beside a disembodied male brain, you will not be able to tell which is male and which is female.
The sexes do indeed “think and communicate differently” but that is cultural. Women have been taught to think and communicate differently. And males have been taught to be in command. Perhaps this will change in future generaions.
It’s easy to say, if you are a male, that there’s no misogyny in Atheist organizations. That’s because you don’t experience it. Or if you are an isolated female whose contact with organizational psychodynamics is limited, you may not have been subjected to the many forms of misogyny we experience in the workworld. Those of us who are, or have been, in the corporate world or have worked in any medium-to-large organization in any decision-making capacity, know that misogyny has not been irradicated in the workplace and that we have to deal with it, sometimes to our disadvantage.
Your assurances that atheist men are not misogynistic, or perhaps less so than other male groups, may be wishful thinking, and I share your wish. However, my experience–and I work very closely with top male leaders in the atheist movement–is that Atheist men, especially those of an older generation, have a long way to go before they are free from misogyny. I am hoping that perhaps some of these atheist men will read this and at least think about it and examine their deepest attitudes about the place of women. I know they will deny that they are misogynistic themselves and say, Oh no, NOT ME, my attitude toward Ellen has nothing to do with her being a [beautiful, competent] woman whom I might need to control, put down, override, punish, show who’s boss. Oh no,it’s not that!
Ri-i-i-ght.
I thought I might want to join this organization, but I’m having serious second thoughts now. Anyone care to encourage me to change my mind?
Smartgal
After reading your accusations of misogyny I think it is time for you to consider your misandry.
Whoa whoa, the Pope may be laughing. This blog is good but not an ideal place to wash our laundry. This whole situation is a result of a lack of democracy within AA. Alright, no big deal, we can work around that.
Eric in Seattle is right, we should give Ellen a 10% raise after the board reinstates her and give anyone getting a stipend an increase. Anyone directly involved not getting a stipend should get one. Simple. I am willing to kick in more financially as I think many of you will too. I’ll throw a fifty in the mail Monday.
Christianity is on the verge of collapse. All the Christians have is that same lame ass old tired fairytale they have to reinvent over and over as science unravels every angle they cling to. The farther down archeology digs the farther back in time we realize humanity existed before the Jewish folk tales. The farther out in space the Hubble telescope allows us to see the more incoherent all religion is. Transitional fossils are being dug up left and right and geology is unraveling questions for anyone willing to look. Time to toss out the discontent and focus on the goal. Mistakes were made but so what? We all make mistakes and learn as we move forward.
I suggest state directors be elected starting next year at each state convention. There are only 17 state directors but I think via Meetup.com we can add more from border states with a little effort. After that smooth transition Ellen should be willing to put her position on the line the following year. I doubt anyone would run against her. With a democratic structure in place the membership would not have to hold open air discussion for the Pope’s pleasure.
A coherent strategy needs to be formulated. I do not agree AA should be middle of the road. We have to fight every twisted idea pushed by the religious world. War is not a solution to failed economic policy. Racism does exist and I do see sexism locally within the atheist movement. This is a project bigger than the president and board.
We are on the verge of having the first black president of America who just happens to have been introduced to Islam first and now is a Christian. He has lived comparative religion and he has my vote.
Christianity should be taught in public school within a comparitive religion class with a glimpse at atheism. The first folks to argue about content would be the Christians.
Christianity is withering and we need to put aside petty issues that can be dealt with later. We need to offer up the fruit of knowledge to the sleepwalking masses. I forgive them for they know not what they do. Let’s not let them say the same about us.
I’m heading out of state in the morning but will have more to say Monday about the march and the convention. Mark Farris
1qguido
Should we wake them before giving them the fruit. They might aspirate if we don’t. And what about vegies?
Women have been taught to think and communicate differently. And males have been taught to be in command.
This is a concerted effort on the behalf of the Abrahamic male-dominate religions (with their male-dominate god, invented to dethrone the goddess religions of the day). There actually were cultures alive and well on our planet that did not espouse these twisted values. The ancient Iroquois are an example. Women were equal to men, and could even divorce them. The majority of white woman who escaped into the Iroquois Nation (or were lucky enough to be kidnapped), rarely wanted to return.
If only we had learned from them, instead of massacring them.
Must dominate! It’s the great european white way!
nancyjensen1213,
Not me. Personally, I’m still trying to dig my way out of all this dirty laundry. I suppose I will continue to monitor the situation and try to be hopeful that American Atheists can get its act together, but at this point I am not at all sure I will renew my membership.
Is it just me, or does anyone else find it extremely inappropriate that one of the board members (Bart Meltzer) says he is Ellen Johnson’s significant other? What an incredible conflict of interest over the past several years, in my opinion. Interesting, what we are now finding out.
One thing for sure, if Ellen Johnson were to be reinstated as president, I would definitely not renew my membership.
And, if they cannot get more skilled editors, there does not seem to be much hope for the magazine. I appreciate that the Gaudias have apparently been doing the job on a volunteer basis, but the number of errors is unacceptable to me. Still, Ellen Johnson was supposed to be the official editor, correct?
Finally, I now see that the letter to members on the AA website has been reworked yet again (still with typographical errors and misspellings, of course) to try to put a positive spin on all this.
As you can tell, this member is not a happy camper.
Smartgal-
Yes, Dear
There…better?
(…marriage veteran;-)
SG-
If you wish to engage me in a debate over the employment/promotion of the underqualified in the interest of “fair play”. A.K.A. affirmative action, Dave has started a more appropriate thread for it – Truth v. PC
(I think Truth v. BS would have been better)
In addition to having serious doubts about joining AA, given what’s transpired over the course of these past weeks, I’m amazed at some of these comments.
For example, Smartgal, who seems to think she’s Smart, has two misspelled words in her comments about the mistakes of others. Where’s the Smart in that gal? Since I’m a gal myself, please, no accusations that I am biased.
Also, a serious conflict of interest in AA when a member of the board is the significant other of the Pres. Bart, how were you able to be objective in all of this?