http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/04/13/forum/index.htmlThis is bull. These guys — BOTH OF THEM — show no signs of even acknowledging the Secular 30 Million, let alone protecting the separation of Church and state. The’yre competing to show how much they love Jesus, and how much they love Jesus, and how much the REALLY REALLY love Jesus.I give up. They don’t want my vote, and they’re not geting it.
On Sunday, after a tumultuous campaign season where religion — both rumor and reality — has had a starring role, the two remaining Democratic White House hopefuls, Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama, again ventured onto terrain that has been dominated by Republican candidates.It was a risk-filled journey for both: social issues like abortion and gay marriage have long been sticking points for Democrats in their efforts to reach some religious voters.But in separate appearances at Faith in Public Life’s Compassion Forum at Messiah College — only the second such event in Democratic presidential campaign history — both spoke of their faith in starkly personal terms.On a day when her campaign released a new ad talking about her struggles to “climb the mountain,” Clinton told CNN’s Campbell Brown and Newsweek’s Jon Meacham. “I don’t think that I could have made my life’s journey without being anchored in God’s grace and without having that, you know, sense of forgiveness and unconditional love.
Karen
Thanks for the clarification. I think we are more in agreement than not.
Comment from: ☺ Seeker ☺ [Member]
?There?s an elephant in the room.?
?I can?t see it.?
?That?s because it?s an invisible elephant.?
?Invisible??
?Of course. If it were visible you could see it… So it must be invisible.?
?How odd. So how do you know it?s here??
?Well, it?s obvious. Just look around!?
?All I see are three chairs, a table and a lamp.?
?Right!?
??Right,? what??
?How do you think the chairs and the table and the lamp got here??
?The elephant??
?Yep. The elephant.?
?But I brought that chair.?
?How did YOU get here??
?Don?t tell me the elephant made me??
?He did.?
?That?s silly. I have parents. One male father. One female mother. They made me.?
?Who made them??
?Two sets of grandparents.?
?And…?
?Okay. I see. Go back far enough and the elephant made the first parents.?
?Right!?
?How do you know that??
?It?s in the elephant book.?
?The elephant book says the elephant made the first parents??
?The elephant made everything!?
?What about the guy next door? He says there a giant pink rabbit in his room.?
?Heresy.?
?Heresy??
?Yeah. It?s a trick of the anti-elephant.?
?There?s an anti-elephant??
?Yep. The anti-elephant wants to you believe in the giant pink rabbit.?
?Why??
?So you won?t believe in the elephant.?
?No kidding??
?The anti-elephant hates the elephant.?
?Why??
?He?s jealous.?
?Well, I don?t believe there?s an invisible elephant.?
?Don?t say that. You?ll offend him.?
?Where did the elephant come from??
?Oh! He?s always been there!?
?In this room??
?The elephant is everywhere.?
?That?s a big elephant.?
?Well, it?s not a physical elephant. It?s a spiritual elephant.?
?Supernatural??
?Yep.?
?And he can hear what we?re saying??
?He hears and sees everything?
?Why does he want to do that??
?It?s his nature. Besides, he has rules.?
?Why kind of rules??
?Well, things like, ?don?t lie, don?t cuss, don?t steal.?
?And if I do??
?You make him very angry.?
?But I don?t believe there is an elephant.?
?Uh oh!?
?What??
?You REALLY shouldn?t say that!?
?He heard me again??
?Yep. And that makes him angry!?
?How do you know??
?It?s all in the elephant book. Would you like to read it??
?Not now. Maybe later. Now what are you doing??
?I?m talking to the elephant.?
?Why do you close your eyes.?
?I dunno. Just tradition, I guess.?
?What did you tell him??
?I asked him to forgive me for lying, cussing and stealing.?
?And what did he say??
?He forgave me and told me to try not to do it again but if I do he?ll forgive me and I need to try not to do it again and…?
?He?ll forgive you??
?Yep.?
?You heard that??
?Not audibly.?
?How did you hear it??
?Right here in my heart.?
?That?s silly.?
?That?s because you?ve never met the elephant. If you would believe in the elephant, you, too, could talk with him.?
?I think you?re delusional.?
?You?ve been tricked!?
?Tricked??
?Yep. Tricked!?
?By whom? The elephant??
No! By the anti-elephant.?
?But I?ve never seen the anti-elephant.?
?You don?t have to see him. He puts thoughts in your head so you won?t believe in the elephant.?
?That?s foolish.?
??He who says in his heart there is no invisible elephant is a fool!??
?You?re quoting from the elephant book??
?Yep.?
?I say there?s no big pink rabbit.?
?That?s wise!?
?And I say there?s no invisible elephant.?
?That?s foolish!?
?Why doesn?t the elephant just show himself??
?Oh! He did! He was the elephant man. But people killed him!?
?Now he?s invisible again??
?No. He went to elephant land to be with his father the elephant.?
?There?s two of them??
?Well, actually they?re one and the same. And besides, there are three of them.?
?I don?t understand.?
?That?s proof the elephant is real!?
?Proof??
?Yep. If you could understand the elephant, he would be natural. But if he?s supernatural…?
?I couldn?t understand him.?
?Yep.?
?So because I don?t understand how there are three elephants, one being an elephant man, who are actually one, it proves they exist??
?Yep. They?re supernatural. Beyond finding out.?
?It?s a great mystery, huh??
?The elephant works in mysterious ways!?
?So, if I could see the elephant it would be natural. But I can?t see him. That?s proof that the elephant is real.?
?You?re catching on. You want to become an elephantist??
?No. Not quite yet.?
?Well, if you don?t believe in the elephant you can?t go to elephant land when you die.?
?Why would I want to do that??
?It?s a perfect place. You get a mansion. You never go hungry and you never cry.?
?And what if I don?t believe in the elephant??
?You go to anti-elephant land.?
?What?s anti-elephant land like??
?You burn in a fire for ever and ever.?
?When I die??
?Yep.?
?What about the billions of people who didn?t know about the elephant??
?They all died and went to anti-elephant land.?
?Are they still there??
?Yep. Burning in fire for ever and ever.?
?But they didn?t even know he existed. That doesn?t sound fair.?
?Oh. They had chairs and table and lamps.?
?Evidence of the invisible elephant.?
?Yep. They shoulda known.?
?So why is it that billions of people over thousands of years never deduced the invisible elephant?s existence??
?The anti-elephant blinded their eyes.?
?You know why I think the elephant is invisible??
?No. Why??
?Because there is no elephant.?
?He heard that!?
What –
Yeah, my wife and I. We’re thinking about changing the name though. It’s proven hard for people to remember and clubs can never fit it on their signs. Now that our keyboardist has left it just feels like time for a change anyway.
It’s a ‘change’ year. hehe.
In a discussion of bananna smoothies, would you expect them to include their support of fudge brownies, just to ensure their vote?
the problem is who to vote for then ? they are all the same so i guess the lesser of two evils.
Well, there’s always Ralph Nader. Is he religious?
Bob Barr is running for president:
http://www.bobbarr2008.com/?gclid=COmk1tv02pICFQYqHgod6BbaiA
George Will comments:
http://www.newsweek.com/id/131748?from=rss
We could always spam the three candidates asking them why an atheist should even consider voting for them with all of this focus on faith silliness? Insist that if they want our votes they publicly admit that they favor the separation of church and state even if they themselves are openly (even if not privately) christian.
If we can pester someone with faxes for attacking atheists while holding office we can certainly pester anyone who wants to be the leader of our home.
If Atheists want to get involved in politics, then they are going to have to grow a thicker coat of skin.
Then there is the argument presented by Eddie Tabash regarding the next resident of 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue and his/her pick for the next couple of Supremes. You damn well better vote for Barry or Hill, cause if Walnuts gets in, we will have a total theocracy declared by his choices for Supreme.
i believe Obama would be most sympathetic and understanding of the atheist belief because of his background. hillary is only a fair weather believer anyway. she’s paying lip service.
can you blame them?.. when polls show an atheist to be the least trusted presidential candidate.
peter said:
“If Atheists want to get involved in politics, then they are going to have to grow a thicker coat of skin.”
that plus they better have an exemplary history of morality and helping their fellow man that borders on “sainthood” so that the xtians can’t use the moral integrity issue against them. if you’re a xtian your morals wouldn’t be intensely questioned to start with but everything we ever did would be scrutinized looking for signs of moral depravity, devil worship or the like.
it’s unfair but it is what it is.
Dave
That resembles a tantrum. You never get your perfect candidate and your’s would be different than mine.
I don’t have the book with me, so please forgive the paraphrasing…
But one of the reasons I still like Obama is that while outlining his experience of being raised by his atheist mother in ‘The Audacity of Hope,’ he describes her as ‘one of the most spiritual individuals he has ever met.’ The fact that he spent at least the first half of his life as an atheist and still appears to have respect for atheists even after ‘converting’ or whatever leads to believe (or at least have the audacity to hope – hehe) that he’ll have our back.
And yeah, it’s annoying to watch the constant placating and sucking up to the churchies, but not half as annoying as watching the media go nuts over the fact that he prefers orange juice to coffee or that Hillary thinks she’s fracking Rambo or something at the very moment it is revealed that GWB actually signed off on torturing POWs.
Priorities… Phttt
I’ve emailed all three canidates on their stance with regard to the ‘ separation wall ‘ and recieved no replies. I’m going to vote for Abe Snake for president.
r4d
Is Taking the Place of a Natural Disaster your band?
“hillary is only a fair weather believer anyway. she’s paying lip service.”
I don’t believe that statement is correct. Read Carl Bernstein’s book on Hillary. It is heavily documented and it appears that her Methodist religion has played a significant role in her life since her early years and has, indeed, shaped her life.
I disagree with her on many points but all things considered she is a Methodist–probably the least invasive of any of the churches. She also fully understands the issues that affect all women and her history shows that she has a genuine concern for the poor, and especially for children.
She did not grow up with a silver spoon in her mouth. Her years with Bill have caused her much grief and she has borne it with dignity and grace. I, for one, believe the woman has been tested by fire.
Personally, while I would prefer that all the candidates were nonbelievers, we live in a country where each of us has the right to
believe or not to believe. We can thank the RR fanatics (Dubya being one of them) for bringing out into the open the religious beliefs of each candidate.
What –
I’m NOT throwing a temper tantrum! I’m NOT I’m NOT I’m NOT!!!
I think my skin is pretty thick. How bad does it have to get before we get angry? “I’m really really really into Jesus” “Oh yeah, well I’m really really really REALLY into Jesus”.
Screw the lesser of evils. Obama and Hillary both want the evangelical vote (as if the fundies will vote pro-choice) and are sacrificing us based one the assumption that we’ll vote for the lesser of evils. F-them both.
I’m voting Nader — again.
I thought we all were voting for a president and not a priest
I’m with Phideaux.
Things have come to a sorry pass when you need to be a Christian, and the right kind besides, to get elected.
But what are ya gonna do? This is what we’ve come to in the country of religous fanatics.
Dude, you and Ellen need to stop turning people away from the Jesus-loving DFL. This is a pivotal election. Any DFL vote that is lost is a YES for McBush and his insatiable love for war.
You both heard Eddie Tabash’s powerful speech warning about the fragile balance on the Supreme Court. Want theocracy? Vote for someone other than the DFL. Then we’ll really have something to whine about!!
I think deciding not to vote or voting for Nader (which in essence is a decision not to vote) simply because all the major candidates profess a religion is an extremely nearsighted and self-damaging approach.
I mean really, one-issue voting is so pass?. Get over it and start thinking more pragmatically. You either decide to participate in the process despite its many flaws or stand idly by only to watch them add even more flaws. Just pick your poison and keep raising your voice. We’re going to have to keep working hard to build this constituency, no matter who wins next fall.
BTW, Dave,
Nader is a Maronite Catholic.
Dave
If you want to through a tantrum then go to your room.
We always vote for the lesser of multiple evils.
If Nader was a serious competitor he would be pandering to the religious crowd as well. The fact that he has no chance in hell provides him with the luxury of stick ing to his ideology.
R4D
I enjoyed the music. Thanks. A shorter band name or a catchy acronym is advisable.
What,
I don’t know what got into Clinton with the Bosnia thing. Major mistake. And yes, I am bothered by her untruth about that.
But, am I silly enough to think that there is a candidate out there who hasn’t either lied or embellished the truth? No. So a bold black mark for Clinton on that one.
But Obama’s lack of judgement bothers me far more than the Clinton embellishment. And not to excuse her, but she’s been on the campaign trail for months now, surely exhausted, running on limited rest, so how does a statement made under the worst of circumstances compare to twenty years of poor judgment?
As I said, if I was a xian I would be praying to the invisible man that he didn’t make it a choice between Obama and McCain.
And thanks neoman4426 for the Elephant.
And thanks again, Seeker. Your elephant story is fantastic. I hope it will see publication somewhere. The Atheist magazine, perhaps?
Yeah, that elephant story is pretty good. Kinda reminds of Carl Sagan’s ‘There is a dragon in my garage.’
What
I would say that both the Clintons have shone at least twenty years of bad judgement. So many people look nostalgically at Bill’s administration these days, but it’s mostly because Bush’s has been so much more disastrous by comparison. But really, BC’s first four years were a complete, ineffectual mess which led to the ‘Republican Revolution’ of ‘94, and the next four were Monica 24/7. Most of his time in office was spent either placating to the right (welfare reform, NAFTA, don’t ask – don’t tell, the health care disaster), engaging in clumsy foreign policy (Bosnia, Somalia), or fending off investigations into his naughty parts. Sure, he did a few good things, and the economy looked pretty good there for a few years (though I personally doubt that had much to do with sound economic policies,) but let’s face it… ‘it wasn’t all that.’ And Hillary? A short, mixed record in the senate usually spent with her finger in the air trying to figure out which way to set her sail, and an apparently ruthless desire to keep the dynasty alive.
Well I don’t like dynasties, I’m done with the Clintons in general, I sure as fuck don’t want that senile bastard McCain in the WH (talk about a flip-flopper,) and, like I said, Wright’s sermons, especially when viewed in their entirety, just sound like Public Enemy lyrics to me. I happen to consider ‘It Takes A Nation Of Millions To Hold Us Back’ one of the best albums of all time, even if some of the lyrics are bullshit (”Farrakhan is a prophet that I think you out to listen to…”). Martin Luther King’s last sermon was entitled “Is America Going To Hell?” and yet we revere him. Christopher Hitchens is a drunk asshole yet I love to hear him speak, even when I disagree. Richard Dawkins argued in TGD that pedephilia in the Catholic Church was really no big deal compared with being raised Catholic in the first place, yet I still read his books, watch his videos, and visit his site.
If guilt by association holds any water, then we are all guilty.
Ok, I guess we should be voting for Hillary then. Honestly, they both have faults. But after all we shouldn’t do the guilt by association thing regarding Hillary either right?
rainbows4dinosaurs, do you agree with everything that Barack says?
r4d
Me too! These dynasties tend to turn their family feuds into the wars of nations.
rna2dna
Of course not, especially during the forum that was the original topic of this thread. And I don’t agree with everything he’s done, either. I’m not a cultist – I recognize and expect to see many flaws.
But I still think he’ll make a good president.
Don’t know where I’m going to go yet but half of me says to spite them because of their religious overtones and go with the Green or Libertarian parties.
At http://www.thefaithdebate.com you can discuss this issue, share your opinions with others and get to know what other people have to say. Be a part of the debate!