Panel okays evolution alternatives A Senate committee says teachers can discuss other origin-of-life ideas. By Linda Kleindienst The Orlando Sentinel Wednesday, April 9, 2008 Florida teachers could mention religious theories about human origins, such as creationism and intelligent design, without fearing retribution under a measure that passed a key Senate committee Tuesday. The “Evolution Academic Freedom Act” was approved 7-3 by the Senate Judiciary Committee and now goes to the full chamber for consideration, although no date has been set. The measure awaits its first hearing in the House. Sen. Ronda Storms, R-Valrico, said she filed the bill after hearing cases of students and teachers who felt “muzzled” and unable to discuss alternate theories on the origin of life. She said teachers have suffered retribution from school authorities and students have been the target of “denigrating comments” from other teachers. While the measure does not allow any teacher to promote a specific religious doctrine, “you can hold to your own religious views without being attacked for it,” Storms said. “This promotes the free flow of ideas.” While the committee’s six Republicans voted for the measure, the “no” votes came from Democratic Sens. Ted Deutch of Boca Raton, Steve Geller of Cooper City and Jeremy Ring of Parkland. “I believe the purpose of this bill is to let people bring their religious beliefs into school,” said Geller, the Senate’s Democratic Leader, voicing concerns about keeping the separation between church and state. “We need to keep the wall.” The legislation was filed after the state Board of Education, by a one-vote margin, approved changes in February to the state science standards requiring the teaching of the “scientific theory of evolution.” The new standards, which will present evolution as a “fundamental concept underlying all biology,” will be included in public-school curricula starting this fall, and the Science FCAT will test students on the material beginning in 2012. Mary Bahr, a Marion County middle-school teacher who helped write the standards, warned that Storms’ bill could “muddy the water” on what should be taught. “If this passes, what will we be teaching in our science classes?” she asked. Despite Storms’ claims of reprisals against teachers, according to the Florida Department of Education there has never been a case in Florida in which a public-school teacher has claimed discrimination based on science teaching. But Nathan Dunn, vice president of the Florida Family Action Network, read to the committee several letters from science teachers who claimed they had been shunned or ostracized when questioning evolution.
http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/politics/orl-evolution0908apr09,0,3308090.storyOK so let me get this straight.1) In the history of the world, the amount of scientific evidence supporting the existance of a deity is Zero.2) In all the world, the number of repected Science research universities who accept “Intelligent Design” as a valid scientific theory is Zero.3) Some un-named teachers wrote emails saying they were “shunned or ostracized” because they questioned what is regarded by the scientific community as FACT. They weren’t hurt or fired, or threatened, they were shunned or ostracized for believing that 1+1=3.4) So… we have to change the law that was just passed to be the exact opposite of what it meant.I can’t wait until the Pastafarians and Wiccans get into their “opinions” of alternate Life Origins
Or better yet…
Someone show me evidence of the above…
Creation is an origin myth. Already noted are the gaps
? The sun was created on the fourth 4th day. No sun; no solar system.
How can there have been three 24-hour solar days (including morning and evening) without a solar system?
? The geographical name places mentioned in Genesis 2 (Tigris and Euphrates) would have been erased by the flood.
There’s more…
? Note also that the earth produced vegetation without the sun; without photosynthesis. Scientific?
? Genesis contains two creation accounts; Genesis 2:4b to 2:25 is thought to have been written first. Genesis 1:1 through 2:4a, second.
? As the result of Adam’s sin, death entered into the world; a part of the curse. Yet Adam ate prior to the fall. What did he eat? Vegetation that would have died upon consumption.
? Pain and suffering also existed prior to the fall. Note that Eve’s pain in child bearing was “multiplied” from the Hebrew רבה which means “greatly increase.” To increase something must exist.
? Layers of ice in the polar regions reveal age, must like the rings of a tree. The prove an old earth far exceeding Ussher’s 4004 BC creation date.
And on it goes…
Comment from: mw66
Ok…prove that it’s wrong. Scientifically…not emotionally…
Ok…prove that it’s wrong. Scientifically…not emotionally…
See above post.
phreedm
what version of creation would you teach, each religion has its own.these subjects are best left for college level studies when minds are more mature and a person is more likely to be well grounded in their own faith tradition.pastors jumping in on scientific subjects is no better than untrained persons preaching from the pulpit.
the question we should ask ourselves is why is it important to us the individual personally how life was created.will the answer affect our moral interaction with others.
Actually phreedum your analogy is flawed since the fact is that gay people are real as evidenced by people like myself whereas ID is not real as evidenced by the total lack of evidence. However to indulge you I will say that there are many studies linking sexual orientation, both homosexual and heterosexual, to genetics and these can be easily accessed by Googling some key terms. The most famous of these studies involve fruit flies, twins, handedness, and hair whorls. The available data indicates a very strong genetic component to sexual orientation but genetics is a relativley new science so there is still a lot more work to be done. In any case, phreedum, comparing sexual orientation’s genetic basis to imtelligent design is just another example of your utter lack of an understanding of science.
ID is an untestable assertion and is therefore of less value than a testable assertion that is tested and found to be invalid. Somehow this little FACT continues to escape xian idiots and their NoGodBlog representative Phreeky. Seriously, what is wrong with their brains?
I think most everyone here would agree creationists are uneducated hicks. For your entertainment I wanted to stop by to give you all an example of a 100% pure creationist hick. This is a comment about an article in the Miami Herald about Sen. Ronda Storms and her religious attack against science education in Florida:
http://tinyurl.com/539fez
Here’s a sample and there’s a lot more stupidity where this came from:
“There for they have taught these lies to our kids with ONE purpose, and that was to take GOD OUT of the schools. So who actully had and still has an AGENDA. Not those who are afraid of teaching real Science or letting our KIDS think for themselfs ,and letting them decide if they were created by a creator .”
If I lived in FL, I would send my son/daughter to school highly coached to assert that the earth was created by millworms. The teacher had better create a module and spend at least several classes on the subject, and there better be a quiz!
If not, I would cry “Oppression!” and would take it to the legal level.
Millworm creationism would be taught or else!!!
Alex…
No…your answer is flawed. Simply because you exist, and because your gay does not answer the question…
Are individuals born gay…?
You point to fruit fly studies as proof? This from an elitist who brags about college level biology studies?
The truth is you can’t point to one study…
Therefore according to your own criteria the idea that someone being born gay should not be discussed within our educational system…if and until there’s one study which stands up to the rigors of the scientific method…
Your words…not mine…
But of course since you’re an elitist you only apply your words to others…not yourself…
Seeker…
You’re a fraud just like Augustine…
From you emotional responses to questions prove you were never trained at a seminary…yet you claim to be a former pastor…
Tell me…what drives an individual to pretend there something they’re not on an atheist blog…?
reason…
My discussion with Alex is taking us off topic…
Let’s make it simple…
Do you believe in the following statement…
From you= Your
there=they’re
phreedm asked?
‘Do you believe in the following statement…
“freedom of thought is fundamental to the scientific process”
freedom of thought is fundamental to many processes. however thought isn’t required for ID because no matter what question is asked, the answer is the same…. “god did it”. maybe that is a thought process to a brainwashed xtian but it sure as hell isn’t to a “free-thinking” rational mind. of course you can’t understand that because you apparently don’t have one.
sorry phreedm you lose again.
And he/she/it loses again.
Phreaky:
Every single baby born in this world is an atheist.
Atheist- no belief in a god or gods.
That’s it. Are you trying to tell me that an infant has an understanding of gods? So, when you were 3 months old, you knew about and understood who Jesus and Yahweh were? Yeah, right!
What you are mistaking is that a baby may be born into a religious family, i.e. xian, but that doesn’t make it a xian. What it makes it is a baby of xian parents.
But I don’t expect you to understand…
wow phreedm, I haven’t been around that much, but your name calling has hit new heights. I never really understood why evolution is so threatening to belief. Is it so hard to believe that people were writing a story handed down by oral tradition and shouldn’t be the basis of scientific learning? I went to 12 years of christian school and we talked about evolution without it being threatening. They were pretty even handed explaining that some people think it’s a literal story and some people think it’s allegory… and that was at a christian school. One of my teachers said it well: it’s not about how it was done, but about who did it. I think that evolution is the most likely way we got to where we are and it doesn’t threaten my beliefs.
I did a quick search for one of my favorite Family Guy references to this:
http://religiousfreaks.com/2006/07/09/evolution-vs-creationism-family-guy-style/
Fantastic.
Spanders
Whoops
How ridiculous! Who? The entire scientific world stopped anthropomorphizing nature a long time ago.
Comment from: spanders
Of course you’d have to say that Spanders…you’d never see the other side of the issue. Actually I’ve grown fond of the wide variety of names everyone has come up with for me…I let all of the teens know each Friday night. It’s a great lesson in pointing out the weaker hand in a debate…
Only Liberals water down a message to compromise and make everyone feel all warm and fuzzy…
The truth hurts. Had you been around you’d understand exactly what I’m taking about…why would someone find the need to pretend they’re someone they aren’t?
Comment from: Boise Jim
Here we have another emotional response…not very scientific BJ
Comment from: sayonara
And one peron sho not only doesn’t understand ID but also believes in limiting the free flow of ideas because of a preconceived opinion…
Wow…this thread is very eye opening…
In response to: Sun Fries Brain cells in Florida — origin “alternatives” OK’d?
spanders [Member]
I went to 12 years of christian school and we talked about evolution without it being threatening…and that was at a christian school.
*******
Are you sure you went to Christian school? and sure also that your teacher is a Christian? Really? You mean to say your teacher is also a monkey just like you and as you believed?
Man was created by God in His own image and breath man to live with soul, unlike pigs, dogs, Urangutan, Gorilla, chimpanzee or monkey from Darwin’s fantasies?
Please don’t include your sister/brother/parents/ancestors to your foolishness.
Man have souls but animals/monkeys doesn’t have. Thats why if anyone never hit your body but say something that hurts your feelings, you have emotions, conscience and that is your soul and you will decide while on earth where do you want your soul will go…to heaven or hell….Remember…John 3:16 for salvation. God bless.
What, I realize that argument isn’t one that you would relate to, but it was intended for phreedm. In other words, it is a debate that exists within the christian community and addresses issues of errancy vs. inerrancy. While the scientific community relies on testing and evidence, it does not mean that scientists cannot be religious. Religion can inspire religious scientists to understand how god created the world. The inspiration for being a scientist varies from person to person. I suspect you will argue that being religious takes away from being a good scientist. I don’t see where there would be trouble if dogma doesn’t replace study and testing. OK, back to work for me… another drive by on my part.
So in arithmetic and math classes we check with the students to see what they think the answers to the questions are and then we declare them all to be right?
This can be used in language classes as well. Spelling, grammar, punctuation – there are lots of alternative ways of doing things. Why should only one of them be right?
Some spell it freedm and claim the children should not be restricted in their exposure to reality claims. The children need to see there is a controversy over all the permutations of 1+1=3 and 2*2= 5, etc. They need to learn all the right and wrong ways a thing can be done.
Some Christians accept evolution and some don’t. Rare, I suspect is the pulpit used to preach creation as fact as well as the reasons that other Christians accept evolution.
Preach the controversy! Open the eyes of those in the pews who will not see.
Everybody go click on that Scientology link. Costs them money that goes to the blog, for a double win.
Just don’t be taken in by their equal and balanced arguments for taking all your money and isolating you from your family and friends.
The Christ idiot said “Man was created by God in His own image”
You got any evidence for your wild claim?
Have you ever seen the Sky Fairy? How do you know what it looks like? How do you even know it exists?
Are you stupid or something?
What a moron. The god nuts have all these childish ideas and they think they are proven facts. There is nobody more insane, more stupid, and more gullible than the Christians.
The worst of these idiots are the Baptists. It’s no coincidence that Florida Senator Ronda Storms, the airhead who is attacking science education, is a Baptist.
Christ idiot, just keep your breathtaking stupidity out of our schools.
More hopeless stupidity from the Christ idiot: “Man have souls but animals/monkeys doesn’t have.”
This is what Einstein called the “ridiculous egotisms” of Christians. The Christians have an inflated sense of their own importance. They think humans are God’s chosen species, magically created to be separate from nature and the only species allowed to fly up to heaven. What a childish cowardly belief.
Here’s the rest of Einstein’s quote:
“I cannot imagine a God who rewards and punishes the objects of his creation, whose purposes are modeled after our own — a God, in short, who is but a reflection of human frailty. Neither can I believe that the individual survives the death of his body, although feeble souls harbor such thoughts through fear or ridiculous egotisms.”
Christ idiot, if people are not animals, what are they, plants?
Christ idiot, why are so hopelessly gullible, insane, and stupid? I’m serious. What does it take to make a person like you a total moron? Do you have an unusually small brain?
ufocard
How does one test the assertions made by ID? If you ca
n’t answer that question then you got zip.
ufotard
Religious mythology (your’s) as a model of anything observable has absolutely predictive value. Prove me wrong or admit you are mentally ill!
Needs a rewrite:
ufotard
Your religious mythology, as a model of anything observable, has absolutely no predictive value. Prove me wrong or admit you are mentally deficient!
Comment from: What
I tell them that I’m running 3 companies…all profitable…
And then spend an hour or so each Friday night teaching them how to run one…
Big difference between you and me “What”…
You simply sit back and throw stones…some of us actually go out and try to make the world a better place…
Phreedm,
Are you familiar with this verse?
“Every one that is proud in heart is an abomination to the LORD…”
Proverbs 16:5a
uof wrote
If you really believe that, you might as well throw your precious book out because it means that even you can’t understand it. If something is meaningless (beyond understanding), it is without value to any discussion.
Phreeky thinks we are going to believe his “three companies” shtick. What a riot. The loser is home all day long posting his unwanted comments on blogs. Isn’t there something about lying in those 10 commandments of his.
Never let it be said that I won’t take the low hanging fruit [insert your own phreakish pun here]
Comment from: phreedm
Comment from: What
I wonder what Phreeky tells his “teens” when they ask “Don’t you have a job?”. He must look like a total loser to those “teens”.
I tell them that I’m running 3 companies…all profitable…
…and they never catch on to my completely ltying my a$$ off in front of them!
Would you be able to provide any sort of, you know, proof that you are running three companies, and that they’re all profitable? Or is this yet another unsourced, unfounded allegation that the studio audience should just accept as true because you say it is?
And then spend an hour or so each Friday night teaching them how to run one…
…into the ground, like my hero Drinky McDumbAss and his Republican’t cohorts did to america!
Big difference between you and me “What”…
…what uses facts in his comments?
…what doesn’t spout religiously insane bullsh!t and expect it to be treated as if it was fact?
…what actually responds to questions asked of him, and doesn’t demand answers from others without ever trying to respond to his questioners?
You simply sit back and throw stones…some of us actually go out and try to make the world a better place…
…after we spend hours on an athiest-oriented weblog spewing religious insanity, childish insults, and off-topic crap from Clown Hall, WorldNutDaily, and Human Misry Online.
I feel very sorry for anyone who has had to experience your phreakish attempts to try and make the world a better place.
Would you be trying to make the world a better place by killing all the fags and heathens, merely banishing them to some isolated spot on the globe, or just instructing the teens in how best to make them pariahs?
Oh, yeah – thanks for the entertainment. It is highly amusing for me and those I brougth along for the ride to watch you twist yourself into all sorts of unnatural shapes so that you can avoid responding to me directly. Is this the honest and open type of communication that you encourage in those you claim to teach? Do you instruct them that they are more equal than everyone else, and as such are too good to respond to the common rabble? Or do they all disappear as soon as you open your eyes and stop dreaming?
Time to put up or shut up, cracker…
CITW,
While I appreciate the thorough response, I don’t have time go through it point by point. As a summary, I think you are saying that since there are inconsistencies in the theory of evolution and that the Bible clearly lays out an inerrant explanation, we should present both equally. However, your argument makes A LOT of assumptions that are highly questionable.
I suspect our scientist friends here can do a better job of explaining evolution and geological time and the processes involved. Your examples of the differences between humans and other animals are not 100% accurate. Other animals have been studied to gossip, joke and show empathy. We may not be as special as you might think. Who knows, god could look like an ape!
The biblical account of creation has conflicting information within itself:
In the first account, God created fruit trees before Adam and Eve; in the second account, God created Adam, then the fruit trees, then Eve.
In the first account, God created animals before Adam and Eve; in the second account, God created Adam. then the animals, then Eve.
Genesis 1:20 describes how God had “the waters bring forth …fowl” ; in Genesis 2:19, God formed them “out of the ground”.
In the first account, God created the fish on the 5th day; in the second account, the fish of the sea were not created at all.
I think Tom Harpur puts it well:
“Looking in the Bible for a scientific account of origins is like looking in the phone directory for a recipe for angel cake.”
We can also look at the comparison between the biblical creation story and the Babylonian creation story which are almost identical in order. Should we give equal time to the theory of evolution, Genesis and the Babylonian creation story in science class? I will continue to argue that we should teach prevailing scientific method and its results. The bible is not a science text book. We should not treat equally modern science for the stories of a nomadic tribe’s creation story.
What did Christ is on the way to the Funny Farm do-copy and paste Answers in Genesis onto our little blogsweetblog? Or is it from the Discotute?
DAVE!!!!!!
Dissenting posts are welcomed, but preachy, vulgar, or hateful posts are deleted without apology.
Do we need to present our case to Mrs. Dave again?
Comment from: BobC
BC…I’ll bet you can’t provide the full article that this quote is from…?
Wow Spanders…
I guess that liberal christian church of yours doesn’t dive too deeply into Scripture…
Spanders
Life is too short to waste arguing about how many fairies you can put on the tip of a needle. What do you expect to gain by arguing about Phreeky’s fairies rather than simply demanding evidence for their existence?
Christ is in the way
Give us an operational definition of the terms “god” and “exist”. If you can’t do that then admit it.
Nobody here is going to bother responding to your psychotically long post above. This is especially the case when you fail to answer the most fundamental questions about the terms you use.
phreedm works in mysterious ways. maybe he thinks he’s god. so what, being delusional he may as well go all the way.
hell, since no proof is required anyway, then i may as well say that i’m god. so that settles it. since no proof or facts are required, i’m god. and as god i’m declaring that there is no god as visioned by any human religion.
all things are eternal and only evolution, natural mutation and the forces of nature have taken place to modify species and landforms over time.
NOW, i demand equal time in science class,too. my theory is as valid as any other.
phreedm
i’m back and my answer to you is yes i believe in free thought in science.faith is not science faith is based on belief absent evidence.i’m not knocking faith i just see no good purpose in mixing the two.btw the way Wesley founder of the methodist church said we are all born atheist that atheism is the natural state of man i come out of the methodist tradition so the concept that you are not born christian but must choose it is not alien to me.if advocates of ID believe a creator created all things then why take offense at evolution since the origin is the same.
Phreeky wants the freedom to declare that anything qualifies as thought.
Christ is the Way,
Phreedm was unable to provide cohesive answers to these critical problems in Genesis. He/she retreated, instead, to ad hominem attacks.
The conclusion is: The Genesis account is indefensible.
Can you do better? Can you explain to an atheist audience to these glaring inaccuracies in the Genesis account? And without plagiarisg (copying/pasting) someone else’s rambings?
Phreedm,
Please refrain from ad hominem attacks. If you can’t defend your position, at least have the courage and character not to personally attack those who expose biblical errors.
If one strips away your presonal insults and reads only the rational arguments you propose, what is left to read? Perhaps you should invest your time studying to “show yourself approved.”
I realize you are frustrated being confronted with uncontestable truth regarding your faith, but replying with personal insults only weakens your position in the minds of thinking, reasonable people.
Let’s take the high road and keep our discussion within the range of propriety and decorum, shall we?
I sent Dave an email imploring him to invoke the delete w/o apology rule on CITW. Don’t know if it will help.
Christ is in the way
Your posts used to be entertaining but they no longer are. You have made them way too long and you have peppered them liberally with bible passages. Nobody likes to have to scroll by such content-sparse posts and surely only the masochistic would bother reading them in their entirety. If the content of your posts are representations of the clutter and disorganization of your mind you truly have my sympathy.
CSTW…
Don’t waste your time on Seeker…
He’s a fraud…