ELDORADO, Texas — A special master will be chosen to review documents, computers and even family Bibles seized from a Texas ranch owned by a polygamist sect.The special master will vet what is expected to be hundreds of items that might not become evidence for legal or religious reasons.Also, an affidavit quoting a confidential informant says a temple at the ranch contains an area where men had sex for the first time with their new underage wives following polygamous unions.Texas state troopers on Wednesday completed their nearly weeklong search of the grounds controlled by the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.The state has taken legal custody of the 416 children found at the ranch.In addition, 139 women voluntarily left the compound and remain with the youngsters.Court documents say teenage girls were required to have sex in the soaring white temple after they were married at the polygamist compound in West Texas.A confidential informant told officials the temple in Eldorado contains a bed where adult males engage in sexual activity with females under the age of 17.An affadavit by a Texas Ranger said agents found a bed in the temple with disturbed linens and what appeared to be a female hair.The temple also contained multiple locked safes, vaults and desk drawers that authorities sought access to. The affidavit unsealed Wednesday mentions a 16-year-old girl who has four children.
The LA Times has an article about these mormon perverts.
http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-compound10apr10,1,2512549.story
“The 16-year-old girl who triggered the initial complaint has yet to be found, though authorities believe she may be among the more than 400 children from the compound that Texas child welfare officials took into state custody this week.
According to court papers also made public Wednesday, the frightened girl called a family shelter March 29 and said she was the child bride of a 50-year-old man named Dale Barlow who “hits her and hurts her.”
She claimed that she had given birth to his child eight months earlier at age 15 and was pregnant again. She also claimed that if anyone learned she was making the call, she would be locked in a room without food “for her disobedience.”"
- The asshole church claims that they have some extra “rights”.
“In a hearing in the city of San Angelo, a phalanx of FLDS attorneys — including lawyers who represented the sect’s self-styled prophet, Warren Jeffs, in a Utah sex abuse case last year — argued that they had a right to review computer hard drives, documents and other evidence seized.
“The church has rights. Entry to the church is a sacred area,” said Gerald H. Goldstein, an attorney for church elder Lyle Jeffs. He argued that seized texts and genealogies considered holy by the FLDS should not become part of any court cases if they don’t directly relate to crimes.”
What the hell is “a sacred area”?
Just for accuracy’s sake, the 16 year old allegedly had one child, conceived when she was 15, and claimed to be “several weeks” pregnant with another.
Also, the confidential informant spoke to the Sheriff 20 times over the last four years, but supposedly never thought to mention the sex in the temple stuff until AFTER the raid and the headlines.
The complainant cannot be found and may not exist. The suspect named in the warrant was found living in AZ on probation and has not been arrested b/c authorities agree he was wrongly accused. (The Salt Lake City Tribune has great coverage on all this).
If abuse occurred there, it should be prosecuted, no doubt. But just as atheists can be persecuted for non-belief, so can extremist religions. The Constitution protects both – God or NoGod. best,
It is very hard to even contemplate the damage done to these young girls and even the adult women who were once in their place. i try to think what they must be thinking having left the ranch and being introduced into civilization. it pretty much like they are discovering a new planet. it reminds me almost of the end of The Truman Show…i guess that sounds silly. can u imagine if the men were set free into society…..they would be responsible for paying a LOT of child support. However, i think they should be put in prison seperated and then they will know what its like to be someone’s BITCH!
So the young girls were forced into sexual slavery. But how we’re they gotten they’re first? I know some are family members, but are they all or is the church “recruiting” women?
Also, where are the young men? I know that some cults banish younger men to reduce competition for the older men, so are there a bunch of homeless 20-somethings out there because of this? If they still hold the same religous views as the cult they came from, we could be looking at this again.
Another fine example of some benefits of religion, for some vile men anyway. I say try ‘em and if they are guilty lock ‘em up and bury the keys so deep they can never be found!
But I do question this quote:
” An affadavit by a Texas Ranger said agents found a bed in the temple with disturbed linens and what appeared to be a female hair.”
Can someone enlighten me as to how male and female hair differs?
I would guess that a female hair is much longer than a male hair, esp. if you live like an 18th century American pioneer. Don’t all of these cult women have really long hair to be biblically correct?
just another example of extreme mind control and brainwashing that religion makes possible. of course it could be any cult, religious or not, just takes the right combination of charisma/power hunger by the “leader” and a gullible flock (unfortunately abundantly available)
ain’t it great to be an atheist? we weren’t indoctrinated or brainwashed by anybody. Most all of us came to our beliefs on our own accord through free and rational thought.
too bad many others don’t have the desire or capacity to do the same.
Under the microscope it was verified that the hair was clothed in teeny tiny female magic mormon underwear.
No matter how insidious the crime, christians are given respect and leniency. Disgusting christian perverts.
Interestingly enough, Tom Green, is the name of another convicted christian polygamist. He was convicted because he was too outspoken about the rewards of polygamy by talking about it as a guest on national TV shows. The christian mormons want to keep their “ways” seekret. From the LATimes story pointed to by bernarda:
Notice also even in Texas, law enforcement won’t go after christians pro actively, they won’t do anything unless there is a sustained cry for help from someone on the inside of the christian cults. As the christian leaders realize the situation, they indoctrinate the captives to not answer questions directly, that is, to avoid answering in a way that would reveal the truth.
It isn’t by chance that the christians that comment at this blog will not answer questions directly.
Ah, but mormons aren’t True Christians?, now are they? Just an upstart cult.
karen,
Good one!
alexatheist,
That is true of all christians excepting the christian doing the preaching.
The mormons actually have the latest edition of the christian holy book, by default they are the leaders of all christians. Just ask them…(privately).
Oh! I almost forgot to give jeebus its due.
Suck it jesus christ!
This is a short reference to the release of the christian Tom Green:
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/08/08/
us/08brfs-POLYGAMISTFR_BRF.html
See! Only six years for christian rape of a child.
They are a bunch of biblical motherfucker’s
This is no more and no less than a child-exploitation-for free-whore house
As much as (most of) you all hate WorldNetDaily.com, there is a post worthy of note:
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=49389
The child abuse committed by this Mormon cult is deplorable. But it is dwarfed by the epidemic of child abuse committed by tax-paid government school teachers.
The government should raid the schools!
Y’know, I hate to be devil’s advocate, but why are there laws about sex with minors anyway? Is there a body of evidence that shows what ‘damage’ is done when a 59 yr old perv bangs a 13 yr old (other than his complete loserdom affirmed)? In cultures outside the US, some folks get married off when they’re 12. Is this legislating a crime with a true victim or is it legislating morality?
3E8,
I’m going to assume your post is in jest…because you can’t be serious.
3E8,
Good questions.
Jerry Lew Lewis is famous for his marriage to a minor. Elvis Presley and Priscilla were an item when she was 14.
Aside from southern rock-a-billie stars there are, perhaps, millions of other cradle-robbing men who’ve married teeny-boppers.
For a direct answer to your question, however, you would need to consult with one of the little girls who were sexually abused by older men with over-active libidos and inactive sense of personal character.
I agree, what is so magical about age 16…or 17..or 18? These are all different ages of consent in different states. I think that most reasonable people can agree that it should be criminal for adults to have sex with pre adolescent children but it gets very murky once people reach puberty. Is it a crime for a 15 year old boy to have sex with an 18 year old girl? what about a 15 year old boy having sex with a 35 year old woman?
Sneaker and 3E8 could both use a good raping.
The christians *force* these children to participate. Get it?
And, no, it is much much worse than public school, moron.
I do feel kinda icky discussing the topic with an open mind, but I feel like I can’t put the subject to rest unless I really do. So please bear with me.
I was sexually ‘violated’ when I was 7 by a male in his late 20’s (at least three times that I remember). As unpleasant as the affair is to reflect on, I think I turned out just fine. Then again, I’m a guy so maybe that’s what makes the difference.
Aside from making the issue into an emotional one by taunting me to interview first-hand the ‘victims’, I’d like to know some solid evidence that supports why this is a ‘bad’ thing.
And, let me make one thing very clear here: I’m NOT condoning 50+ yr old men (or women) having sexual relations with teenage girls (or boys)! Just trying to hear the marketplace of ideas out there so I can better settle the issue for myself.
Mormon hero, or is that saint, Brigham Young was basically a thug. Here Mark Twain quotes from another book on the Mountain Meadows Massacre.
http://1857massacre.com/MMM/Twain.htm
“A ‘revelation’ from Brigham Young, as Great Grand Archee of God, was despatched to President J. C. Haight, Bishop Higbee, and J. D. Lee (adopted son of Brigham), commanding them to raise all the forces they could muster and trust, follow those cursed Gentiles (so read the revelation), attack them disguised as Indians, and with the arrows of the Almighty made a clean sweep of them, and leave none to tell the tale; and if they needed any assistance they were commanded to hire the Indians as their allies, promising them a share of the booty. They were to be neither slothful nor negligent in their duty, and to he punctual in sending the teams back to him before winter set in, for this was the mandate of Almighty God.”
…
” It was promised by the Mormon bishops that they would bring a force and guard the emigrants back to the settlements. The terms were agreed to, the emigrants being desirous of saving the lives of their families. The Mormons retired, and subsequently appeared with thirty or forty armed men. The emigrants were marched out, the women and children in front and the men behind, the Mormon guard being in the rear
When they had marched in this way about a mile, at a given signal the slaughter commenced. The men were almost all shot down at the first fire from the guard. Two only escaped, who fled to the desert, and were followed one hundred and fifty miles before they were overtaken and slaughtered. The women and children ran on, two or three hundred yards further, when they were overtaken and with the aid of the Indians they were slaughtered. Seventeen individuals only, of all the emigrant party, were spared, and they were little children, the eldest of them being only seven years old. Thus, on the 10th day of September, 1857, was consummated one of the most cruel, cowardly, and bloody murders known in our history.”
Seeker,
Sorry, I re-read your blurb there and think that I missed your tone of voice. I don’t think you were trying to be taunting…
Where is Janet Reno when we need her?
I know I’ve said this before (who cares?), but a 50 year old “banging” a teen is sickening. It is NOT the way to discover sexuality and/or love. It’s an old fuck taking advantage of a child. Get it!!?? And yes, 15 is a child compared to 50. When I was 15 I was gullible, foolish, and prone to making the wrong decisions. Perhaps fucking someone’s grandpa would’ve cleared that up for me? Or perhaps the grandpa just would’ve gotten a nut, which is what it is really about. Grandpa getting a nut (puke!!!). Those that think this is okay really need to ponder it more (or perhaps get therapy).
Sex and love should be discovered with your age-mates (at least close in years).
Period.
3E8
The fact that you were violated-and you were violated, no quotation marks necessary when you were 7 is probably what is clouding your judgment as to what is proper sexual conduct for older people and minors. Though you deem yourself to be just fine, you admit you are troubled by the memory of the events and feel icky about thinking of this matter with an open mind. You might benefit from some counseling, even though you think you are just fine. Childhood molestation, rape, violation have lingering effects on all aspects of your life and can be like a silent time bomb waiting to explode.
I’m sorry for what you experienced, and hope you will consider counseling, just to make sure that you really do have your emotional bases covered. Good luck.
Karen,
Yes, without a doubt, there is an age where an indescretiion is a clear violation (ie – 7 yr old with an adult) – that’s not my issue. The memory is gross to me because it was with an adult when I was so young. But, if I were 13 with another 13 yr old, I doubt it would have affected me at all, if not healthy.
About 10 yrs ago I did see a therapist and about all I got out of it is that I’m “sexually deviant” but I’m not sure I agree with the premise of this diagnosis. Social norm states that we don’t develop sexual appetites until we’re 21. This seems bizarre to me and I have to question the grounds of this perception – is it scientific or religious?
Anyways, in regards to the subject at hand, forcing girls (or anyone) to marry/have sex is wrong under any circumstances, regardless of age. Once again, its a case of religiously-sanctioned evil behavior.
Deviancy can be a scientific descriptor only in the statistical sense. Statistics can describe what is the “norm” in the since that a majority engage in said behavior. Pedophilia is a deviant behavior, but so is homosexuality. The difference between the two is that while homosexuality does not necessarily result in physical or mental harm to either of the participants, pedophilia almost invariably does. So, while deviancy may be a valid descriptor, the word itself has negative connotations which may not apply.
‘Norms’ are established by society and religious views most certainly have an effect on society’s views. I wouldn’t worry about exhibiting a deviant behavior considering that societies norms are always changing. However, if the therapist you’ve been seeing is portraying the deviancy in an unjustified negative light, I’d consider finding another therapist.
3E8
I think you are justified in questioning the diagnosis of your therapist, though obviously I don’t know much about the situation and don’t want to delve into your private life here. Sadly, it’s a common problem to have to shop around for a good therapist, and you may have had one who served you quite poorly.
Where did you hear this? I can’t think of anyone who would agree with that statement.
Are you sure there was no feeling of powerlessness involved as a 7 yr. old? Or broken trust? Children of that age can respond sexually, but rarely think in sexual terms unless they have a history of abuse.
As for the 13-13 scenario, I completely agree.
I also agree with your statement about forcing anyone to marry/have sex, regardless of age or circumstance.
Karen,
It wasn’t a sense of powerlessness since it wasn’t forced but you definitely hit the nail on the head with ‘broken trust’. That’s exactly what bothers me about it. That an adult could do something so selfish to an unknowing child to me is abominable. I actually didn’t remember the event for years, but when I did I was old enough to wrap my mind around it within a more mature context.
Perhaps its why I feel so passionately about the subject. I think I’m lucky in a sense that it was a fairly isolated set of events – but if it had perpetuated, who knows how I would have turned out? I escaped relatively unscathed but the experience left me with a greater sense of responsibility to protect children from slimeballs. I’m starting to piece together what constitutes ’slimeball’ and don’t want to hold any double standards.
And the 21 yr old thing is sort of a hyperbole’d perception I was throwing out there to make a point. I just think from experience that we become sexual at a younger age than legislation would lead us to believe – but it’s probably for the protection of younger kids to avoid pregnancy at an early age.
3E8
“That an adult could do something so selfish to an unknowing child to me is abominable.”
It is abominable. And while I’m not making excuses for your abuser, it most likely happened to him the same way. It happened to me, when I was younger than you. It sounds like you, like I, have broken the chain of abuse. You are to be congratulated for that; it is remarkable, truly. I don’t know if you have children, but if and when you do, you will have to be careful about all kinds of abuse, not just sexual. But since you see yourself as a champion of children, that shouldn’t be hard.
It’s also common that you repressed what happened until a time later in your life when you could deal with it more maturely. There are many stages you go through in the healing process, and you seem to have touched some of them. There are many books out on the process to guide you, if you are interested. I relied heavily on a book called The Courage to Heal; A Guide for Women Survivors of Child Sexual Abuse by Ellen Bass and Laura Davis. I don’t know if there has since been a volume published for men, but there is a workbook of the same name for women and men together. It could give you some insight into your feelings and what you’ve been dealing with. Or if you ever need someone to talk to, I could give you my email. Or maybe I’m making too much of this and you’re fine?
3E8,
The change in consenting age has secular roots, and little to do with morality and/or religious morality.
In America, 200 years ago, getting married at an age 12 to a much older adult was perfectly ok. At that age, kids were done school and ready to go out into the world. Since mostly men worked, older men would often marry younger girls.
Since then, a shift in socio-economic shift caused the age of consent to rise to what it is today. As the Industrial Revolution kicked in, competition for jobs led to the creation of job minimum age laws. As a result, young teens couldn’t find real work, and high schools were created to fill the void.
If you think about it that way, you’ll see that the consenting age changed, but the reasoning didn’t. Both 200 years ago and today, we basically say you’re not old enough to give consent to many things until you’re old enough to live on your own.
I find there is an interesting parallel between psychotherapy and religion.
Religion is completely evidence free and psychotherapy isn’t much better. The proof of this is the large number of doctrines all making contradictory claims as to the one right way to do things.
Recovered memory syndrome is one of the worst aspects of psychotherapy to surface. Religiously inspired therapists or police investigators have worked with children to ‘help’ them recall horrific satanic cult abuses. They just keep asking the same detailed questions over and over until the child’s memory comes to agree with the questions.
Therapists with a feminist bent have done a similar thing to adult patients with regression techniques, resulting in false accusations of sexual abuse against parents, teachers and others.
Locally, Michael Kliman, an elementary school teacher was victimized by a combination of such a therapist and an over zealous police officer and prosecutors who ignored the improbability of the remembered offences occurring in a very public hallway as one example.
http://tanadineen.com/MEDIA/VancouverSun2.htm
A friend of mine went looking for help from a California psychotherapist and ended up recovering memories that her father had abused her, in ways that were “unimaginably evil”. She, her parents, her husband and her daughter have all been affected by the negligence and incompetence of that therapist.
All of which only makes it more difficult for real victims of abuse.
3e8, do you have independent evidence of your abuse, other than your memories? A confession? Witnesses? Your story doesn’t make it clear if someone helped you recover them.
The FLDS are still getting away with abusive polygamy in Bountiful, BC. The first problem is finding witnesses willing to testify, but the government seems unwilling to try because of the constitutional religious freedom defence. Cowards.
Karen,
Thank you for your positive perspective and your kind offer. I think I’m managing pretty well, as you’ll see below I’ve spoken with someone close to me with the same experience. Y’know – reading back to my first post, I feel that a lot has come out and discussing it in this forum has really grounded my perspective a little better.
DDD,
Yes, MANY years later, I confided in someone else who grew up with me in the same neighborhood and before I could finish, he said “It was ___, wasn’t it” and then he described almost exactly what happened to him, location and all by the same individual who did it to me. No telling how many other kids fell victim in that neighborhood.
Nonetheless, you also bring up a valid point. I’ve kind of lost faith in the vague ’science’ of psychotherapy as well.
i have had the pleasure of working with many fine persons of the mainstream mormon tradition. hopefully this will open their eyes to the damage to their image caused by this sect and will get serious about enforcing the marriage and sex laws of the western states.this outrage has been going on for decades and people turned a blind eye. high time to make clear the law not your particular religious group is supreme.
ok, hundreds of girls, multible brides for old guys. I have as yet seen one word of mention of boys. Not one picture of a boy. Is it possible the worst news is to come?
DD-Are you sure this is a femist adgenda?
DeepDiver-I learned about the “Lost Boys” this morning. Brace yourself for that one.
cry:
I had heard of lost boys in the past and current news but always from other countrys.
Did a quick google and was shocked. Why the HELL has this not been brought to our media attention! This article is 4 years old for crying out loud.
http://www.rickross.com/reference/polygamy/polygamy250.html
Perhaps it’s polygamists’ best kept secret. The old dudes don’t want any competition from the young bucks. They know the young girls will always want the young bucks. It’s a wonder they didn’t sacrifice them?
I see nothing wrong with children having sex once they reach puberty. They are, for one thing, physically ready for it. And since everyone is different, then you can’t make a blanket statement about how “everyone” is not mentally ready.
Thus, I see no argument against teenagers having sex with anyone of any age, so long as it’s consensual.
And yes, I agree, the laws we have are attempting to make laws on morality.
Cry4turtles,
No, I wouldn’t say it was a feminist agenda at all. It seems to me to be more of a consequence of feminists shining lights in dark corners and exposing the extent of male abuse of women and children.
These victims were going to therapists and somewhere along the way someone decided to use regression and hypnosis to ‘help’ bring memories to the surface. They weren’t surprised when they found what they believed would be there.
Psychologists know how unreliable memories are, even without deliberate tampering. They also know how individuals typically place too much trust in the accuracy of their memories. In these cases this was all forgotten, though you can see by the statements issued by the various national associations of psychologist that they won’t soon forget it again.
It wouldn’t surprise me if there were still a few true believing therapists out there. My friend still believes she is a victim. I wonder if it is because she can’t face the damage caused by her being deceived.
I speculate that these particular therapists got the results they were looking for and were too incompetent to look for corroborating evidence. Once one case of false memory synthesis became known, the concept spread, contaminating hundreds of lives.
I haven’t come across anything that gave a reasonable explanation from one of these therapists. Mostly they appear to be in damage control mode where admitting their mistakes would just bring on the law suits.
mushinronjya
The key word is ‘consensual’. Our law makers have the idea that the younger person is not capable of giving consent. It ends up being a grey area.
It aught to be no-one’s concern if the couple is close in age. If the significantly older one is in ‘authority’ that does make a difference.
As this case develops, I think the very notion of “consensual” has to be in the crosshairs of the prosecution.
If you have lived your whole life with restricted knowledge of the outside world, with people teaching you their beliefs as facts, and with extreme pressure for conformity, can you really be said to “consent” to anything?
But, if this is seen as abusive, and criminal, then where do we draw the line? Wouldn’t most churches be guilty of behavior modification through thought-control committed against minors? Are we really even allowing a *free* exercise of religion, if we allow such indoctrination to continue? Maybe all churches should be rated ‘NC-17′.