The University of California school system refuses to admit students who learn about science from a sectarian institution with a religious viewpoint. So the Advocates for Faith & Freedom (AFF) are suing UC to force them to place sectarian taught myths on the same basis as reality.Can anyone imagine the damage to our economic system that will occur if AFF succeeds? Imagine every school system across the nation forced to accept religious dogma instead of reality and the deplorable level of intelligence of scientists produced from such an educational system.Would it be hyperbole to say that our entire educational system is on trial for its life?Peter Nuhn
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I don’t think California should shut the doors of its universities to those who have learned only myth, SO LONG AS the students are willing to catch up to the other students and learn real science. If they aren’t, then let them flunk out.
I remember hearing about this and I don’t think they have a case(just imo) because the academic standards must be fulfilled to get into biology 101. If I remember right they can be admitted but the creation science class they took in high school won’t count toward a science credit.
> Would it be hyperbole to say that our entire educational
> system is on trial for its life?
Yes
care to elaborate UnG?
I’m really sick of the religious preying on America’s sense of fairness when it comes to science education.
Of course masking mythology as science is unacceptable. If your religious version of science can’t meet basic accepted scientific principals, then it’s not science. This isn?t about religious freedom, as the AFF would have Americans believe. It?s about, again, the religious trying to force scientific acceptance of their mythology.
I say, put up or shut up. You want your mythology to be taught in America?s public universities as fact, then put your mythology up for scrutiny by the scientific community. Oh wait, you can?t because it?s nothing more than myth ? which offers nothing in the way of scientific discovery. It?s worse than if it could be proven false ? at least that would offer something.
Rusty,
I disagree.
If I didn’t take certain courses in high school, I too would have had university doors closed on me.
The fact is it’s the same for all of us ? if we can’t meet the basic education requirements of a university, then we won’t be accepted. They set the curriculum standards, and if we can?t meet them, they should not be obligated to allow us to attend their institution.
I say, let those who have learned only a myth-based education continue their education at a myth-based university or spend a couple years in a community college catching up.
I’m with DVan on this one.
Uni isn’t the place for catch up.
If we allow students with a creationist based education to be admitted to college then where does it stop? do we also admit $cientology based students who think that space aliens created life on earth? do we allow students to swap out alchemy for chemistry or astrology for astronomy if these courses conflict with their religious beliefs? Education must have standards and if you can’t meet those standards well then tough luck. Not everyone can go to uni.
Is this what the article is saying? It’s not exactly clear to me. Are they denying admission completely, or are they simply denying recognition of certain classes. I’m not totally sure, but my first read was the latter.
For example, if you are taking AP Biology in your high school, and your HS class is teaching only creationism, then Cali is saying you don’t get to skip Cali’s scientific-based Biology 101 course.
I would imagine that if the HS was teaching AP Theology (if there is such a thing), then the colleges would probably allow you to skip Theology 101.
[You can read the article in the link to the title of the post. PN]
What we really need is tougher standards all around. Rather than look at what courses a student took in high school, admissions should be based on rigorous testing in core areas of math, science, reading comprehension, and writing. And I don’t mean the ACT or SAT–those don’t mean squat in their current state. You can’t start denying admission into public universities based on a person’s beliefs–but you can deny them based on their failure to demonstrate knowledge and/or skills in certain areas.
The ACT and SAT are just filtering devices to turn away those with inadequate proficiency in math and English from university education.
I don’t think they should be turned away, I just think that they should not be able to use Creation classes as actual science credit in HS. I further disagree that we should mandate the schools to accept them regardless – college is, afterall, a marketplace of ideas (even bad ones).
The universities should be free to set their own admission standards for enrollment. If biology science class is required, then there’s no arguing that a Creation class does not fulfill their minimum matriculation standard.
I just wish there was a way that the kids who were unlucky enough to be taught such rot wouldn’t have to be the ones that suffered.
Peter, I read the article. I pointed out that it was I who was unclear. The article doesn’t give too many details, for example, which courses. That site is a wee bit biased, too.
So, I went digging, and didn’t quite answer my question. But, lo and behold, here’s another site telling us the major point in the case has already been decided last week.
http://chronicle.com/news/article/4225/constitutional-challenge-to-u-of-californias-course-evaluation-policies-is-dismissed-lawsuit-proceeds
Good reporting OneNewsNow has got going, eh?
If the Universities succeed with this bit of diversity-bashing device, what other filters will they use to screen out undesirables and force a uni-think educated society?
If the students can pass the entrance exam, who cares what their back ground is?
Wow, they are suing eveyone:
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,345274,00.html
Anyone should be admitted to those schools… But they should also be forced to learn the scientific viewpoint that has been the benchmark of the UC research system. Schools are there to educate. Thats what they do. Obviously an otherwise intelligent person who has only been steeped in myth NEEDS something like the UC system to unlock their brain. Seriously, what does it say about us if we would deny a proper education to those that need it most?
What exactly would a creationist class teach? In science you have to have proof to back up your opinion, not just disprove another view. What real proof do creationists have? In fact, what is creationism? Are we talking about an amorphous “creator”, Jesus and the talking snake, the norse world tree yrrindal, or Lord Xenu? They can’t form a real curriculm for creationism. However, since we don’t get sex ed., maybe reading about how we were created by daddy sky’s divine sperm falling as rain on mommy earth is as close as we’ll get to the “theory of fertilization” that evil secularist are telling our children to mislead them from the truth of Mary the virgin.
Further, the UC is a state institution. If they deny students based on their religious background, that would be simply unconstitutional. Something AA should squarely defend, even if we don’t like it.
If we want all those states to take down state funded crosses, we need to bite our tongues and let these people into UCs
nice digs AOL.
the schools are not discriminating against religious schools, they have the right to decide whether or not a given schools courses are rigorous enough to warrant credit at their own institution.
if religious institutions want equal consideration, they can beef up their science curriculums.
Jesus Freak High School curriculum:
Stupidity
Advanced Stupidity
Beginning Ignorance
Developing Ignorance(sorry, there is no advanced ignorance)
Various optional courses on becoming Assholes.
Students can’t use courses taught from a “biblical worldview” to meet UC’s science requirement for the same reason they can’t use art, band, PE, shop, english, geography, or civics courses. None of them are science courses. Makes sense to me.
seeker and Zac,
The school wasn’t denying students based on their religion, the school was refusing to give science credit for non-science courses taken before applying to the university.
If I took a class on Norse Mythology in high school and then sued a university for denying me science credits for that class, then I’d be doing the same thing that these students are doing.
Here’s a blurb from the article:
Basically the students are complaining because they want to avoid having to take any courses that teach about evolution. It’s a backhanded way of trying to legitimize creationism from a scientific perspective.
Comment from: Augustine
You’re showing your lack of scientific skills by even asking the question. Answers to your question are readily available to anyone with the ability to do research…
I guess that’s what happens when one runs around pretending to be a senior in high school…
Alatham:
I read the article. My contention is with the ‘hyperbole’ in the post.
I agree that UC needs standards, but if this is an accredited High School, it would seem there is merit to the argument. If someone with a GED can get into a UC, then shouldn’t someone who was forced to go to a sectarian institution be allowed the chance?
At least make the option of a matriculation exam available.
Creationists do not have proof. Period.
And speaking of research…only one individual attempted to find more information before offering their opinion…
And IMO…Zac hit the nail squarely on the head. But then again, we all know AA supports a one way street on the road known as the “myth”…
Everyone else spoke with absolutely no knowledge of the case…
Kind of explains the lack of understanding about Christianity and early American History….
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB113046466647582145.html
And if your curious as to the effect organizations such as AA and the ACLU have on American education…
It’s all about forcing “their” views on those who don’t agree with their narrow world views…
And I guarantee the courts will find the art teacher’s pre-assignment contract unconstitutional…
Thanks to AA “free thinkers” are under assault…
here’s the link…
http://www.transworldnews.com/NewsStory.aspx?id=42035&cat=15
I’m serious, phreek. What does creationism teach? Evolution is a scientific theory that neither disproves god or requires him. What evidence do you have to support your claims? The flood never happened, and genesis has been debuked in multiple ways. If you have honest, unbiased proof that can actually be reproduced or examined by critics, provide it. I will not consider disproving evolution proof, because I have enough science skills to realize that you must support your theory, not detract from others. Prove Creationism is better than all other theories, and particularly your talking snake theory as opposed to others. Until then, the fact that you cannot address any questions asked to you reveals you’re lack of proof. Also, what real scientific credentials do you have? I will admit as a high school junior that I am not the most trained, but I have a distinct feeling that your credentials are little better. Prove me wrong.
Hello All. I am an atheist educator in a NJ middle school. I know my view is limited, but I do not think educators will stand for this. We will not allow science to become myth. Even if the law mandates such things as teaching creationism (ugh), have some faith in your public educators; who, for the most part, are not teachers because of the two months off in the summer. (gotta love tenure!) We are teachers because we have a thirst for knowledge. We will not allow truth to be suffocated by illusion. Relax. We know what we are doing.
Incidentally, does anyone know anything about this Ben Stein movie called “Expelled”?
Showing hope, salvation (john 3:16), righteousness and morality (10 commandments) in schools and in public places are abominable in the sight of satanic people [(evolutionists, humanists atheists and all who believes that they don't have souls and are not human but believes that their parents,grandparents and ancestors are animals such as pigs, monkeys, dogs etc., meaning if you're not with God you're with the devil)] that doesn’t want to share to students and to all people because their reason is religion……………………………How about the satanic religion !!! to preach evolution, atheism, immorality-marriage of the same male/female organ- homos, hatred, devorce, cloning of frankenstine, cowardness to fight terrorism, etc. ….Question: Are you Americans? do you believe in freedom of religion/ speech/ expression? do you??????????? Do you know George Washington and other American forefathers??????? Through them America was blessed…….Look at your money…until now, America are blessed because of our forefather’s belief “IN GOD WE TRUST” look at your money……satan made you like an animal but please don’t include your patrents/ relatives…….. Repent and accept Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved….John 3:16………Rebuke satan and he will flee from you…..God bless.
Christ is the way,
When did you stop taking your meds? The antipsychotic tablets only work if you take them.
I want the etc! Mmm mmm good.
Is that you’re reason to prove that you’re a monkey?????? please don’t include your brother, sister and parents in your foolishness.
Now consider the Bible doctrine of salvation from sin. Because men are sinners, we alone can never overcome the consequences of our sins. So God sent His own Son to die as a sacrifice to forgive us (John 3:16). But if evolution is true, all of this was unnecessary. If man is constantly progressing, if we just wait long enough we could evolve our own savior! A founder of Canada’s United Church is reported to have said: “It is possible through evolution for the human race to produce a greater man than Jesus Christ.”
In fact, human improvement by evolution is a fundamental doctrine of both Nazism and Communism. They teach that man will progressively improve till we reach the state of Utopia on earth. To help us along the way, both Nazis and Communists practice “survival of the fittest” — they murder millions of people whom they consider to be “unfit”!
Evolution and the Bible are unalterably contradictory. They can never be harmonized.
You need renewal of minds…turn to Jesus and you can have love, joy, peace, goodness, etc which satan can not give.
DiArtemis, for much discussion on the Ben Stein movie “Expelled”, go to the site Pharyngula.
There are some funny stories there.
Comment from Zac Hunter:
Comment from Phreedm:
Finally, we are in agreement with Phreedm.
Christ is the way,
Iv’e never seen anyone show any interest in satan here. Instead of being “Born again” ,why dont you people just grow up?
Could it be that while the general topic of those classes are indeed broad, its in fact the atmosphere in which the courses are taught that excludes them? I’m not sure you could get any more narrower and biased than having a look at the effects of a religion in that religion’s particular private school…
oh, and X is in the way,
Perhaps you should look into evolution a bit more, along with species classifications: humans are not monkeys (monkeys have tails), humans are great apes. Monkeys and Humans are Primates. If you’re going to try to debase evolutionary points, at least know what you’re talking about.
Christ is the way said
I’d like to see you defend that position against Francis Collins(a Christian). You might want to read his new book.
Jeebus Phreak College Courses:
Faith based healing
Religious Philosophy 101: How to persecute the heathens without getting into trouble with the law
Economics 101: Getting federal funding for your faith
How To demonize every other brand of religious insanity but your own
Speaking in Tongues
Snake Handling
Abortion provider stalking and harassment
Law 101: Bringing back crucifixion and the stocks
History 101: Why the factual evidence is WRONG!
Literature 101: How best can we call everyone who doesn’t believe our religiously insane bullsh!t an agent of Satan
Politics 101: Democrats – spawn of Satan or merely condemned to hell?
I see 4-F freedy and some other troll have derailed the thread – again. At least it’s pretty obvious which posts don’t merit reading.
DVan and mxracer, I generally agree with you above. Non-science classes should NOT be recognized as meeting the admission requirements for science, and college isn’t the place to play catch-up. However, many students, especially at state schools, have to do at least a little “catching up,” and I think they should be given a chance to if they are willing.
Rusty;
You said
This is precisely the problem upon which several friends (tenured professors of various subjects (including science, math, and english)) have commented. When students are unprepared yet manage to be admitted to Uni, someone (paid in most instances) has to bring said students up to par. The result is wasted time and money. This problem is even more egregious when considering the many state institutions that already have a hard time attracting new educators due to funds being cut.
I’ll concede they should probobly accept the physics courses, there’s not many ways to religify physics.
as for the literature and history courses, it depends on whether they cherry pick or teach the full spectrum of each suject.
mark twain, for instance, wrote a great deal of material which was critical of religion in general and chrisitianity to say the least. and do they cover the role of religion in opposing the abolitionist movement and in pushing prohibition? somehow I expect not.
in any respect, I don’t know that any of us is in a good position to judge how these courses are being handled, we may just have to wait to see the outcome of the case.
So why haven’t Christ Is The Way’s posts been deleted since they are clearly ‘preachy’?
Atheists are Satanic people??!! Thats not only preachy and vulgar, its downright stupid.
I want to see some ‘deletion’ without ‘apology’
666
I’m not talking about admitting people who are woefully unprepared (whatever that would mean, and I admit I don’t know where to draw that line). I just think that students who have the capacity to acquire and appreciate a university education shouldn’t be turned away just because they’ve been subject to religious indoctrination. They are the ones who might MOST benefit from a rational education. I don’t think that would be a waste of time or money.
You’ve hit the nail on the head right there.
Rusty;
I understand your position and concur that it’s not always the student’s fault in regards to being unprepared. That’s why (I think) there’s so much opposition to the homeschooling issue.
I have actually known some kids and parents that approach homeschooling in the manner described by Stardust. I’m all for that!
I don’t have the answer, but a better standardized testing system which would show students and educators where they are missing the boat (thus having the opportunity to address those areas) might be a good start.
The “standardized testing” that is being used now is a bunch of crap (IMO). Teaching the test is worthless.
disclaimer: Having spent only one school year in the american public school system, I don’t present myself as an authority on the subject. Most of my pre-uni education occured overseas.
A little epilogue for this thread:
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2008/08/12/BAQT129NMG.DTL&tsp=1
Imagine that, its ok for universities to expect students to have learned actual science.
mdetrano’s url went off the margin and the end was cut off.
Is this it?
http://www.sfgate.com/science/
Scroll down the middle of the page to:
Judge says UC can deny religious course credit