So you live in the heart of the Southern Bible Belt. Your neighbors have elected an anti-evolution teaching skool bored. You don’t have the money to afford adequate private education for your children. What do you do?Or you live in an urban area with the now usual violence in the public schools and once again you can’t afford private schooling. What do you do?A California ruling says you can’t homeschool unless you are a certified educator. Great news for the teacher unions and real bad news for the Dobson Focus on the Family. Read the link to the title to this posting. Also, Ask Rockridge is discussing this situation. Can a progressive support homeschooling?Got Children? Discuss…..Peter Nuhn
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I would like to thank karen for her fine research in finding numerous and sundry gods within the text of the preamble. Praise be to Isis. I thought it might be interesting to see if the framers placed any importance on the christian god, they would also include it in the preamble. I didn’t fine it there but perhaps I’m not using the correct spelling, is it Yahooweeny or, Yahootawootee or, Yowamahinie?
pastahead,
Fair enough, I had a thought that this might have been the trigger that set your opinion against me. I was wrong, so be it.
I also felt it was something that I should clarify in case it was used against me in the future.
rna2dna
Silly rna2dna. The framers chose to express their intention that the U.S. be a Christian Nation by using the word “Sunday” in a single clause of the Constitution relating to the amount of time the president has to veto a bill before it becomes law without his signature.
Rusty,
Don’t forget the ‘year of our lord’ they used to date the constitution. The framers would certainly have used the Chinese calendar if they didn’t want this to be a Christian nation.
I haven’t figured out this ‘blogging stuff’ So for now :
YOu:
How did you come to this conclusion? What possible reason could I have to pick on those that were better or worse off than me?
Me:
WEll, I suppose we’re both bullies. I began to attack you for your ‘grammatics’ (ha ha). (that was actually meant for someone else. And it was supposed to be a grammatical mistake.) And well, I just thought you did such a good job at picking on my ‘grammar’ and phrase placement, that I let it pass. Glad you finally recognized what it was that ‘tipped’ me.
YOu:
Who are you and why are you attacking me? Are you an infallible psychoanalyst?
Me: NOt attacking you. Just passionate about the whole ’socialization’ thing. I work my tail off in this department. I’m about to go after another blogger..only wish it were face to face. My body language says a whole lot more.
It’s all good. You seem to be an ‘intelligent’ person. I didn’t accuse you of being a bully a second ago. But the way you went at me for my poor ‘english’. wow..I almost cried:(
Wondering: have kids?
Thanks, DVan. The date thing plus the veto thing adds up to incontrovertible evidence, at least to people who believe the bible describes the Rapture.
The totally clueless Phreek thinks that kids drop out of school because of the quality of the school. What a clueless idiot the Phreek is.
pastahead,
Ok, so how does that make me a bully? Because I chose to defend my argument and my grasp of English? You and I must not have the same definition of “bully.”
Also, what do you mean by “that was meant for someone else”?
I have no problem with being passionate about anti-socia1ism, you are free to your opinions and I’m sure I would agree with at least some of them. But you were clearly attacking me, and you seemed to be doing it because of opinions that I do not hold.
This is just one example of a clear personal attack:
Further,
Actually, you did. Twice. I also don’t appreciate the jab at my intelligence. My intelligence is irrelevant here, but I’m confident that it’s higher than you’re thinking. I’m a Mensa candidate. I would prove it, but I can’t find a way to do that without giving out personal information.
Next time you want to make a passionate argument, make sure it’s not based on a straw-man.
To answer your question, no I don’t have children. I’m only 26 and don’t feel economically stable enough.
Finally, to make a block quote appear, type this:
[blockquote]QUOTE[/blockquote]
But replace [] with less than and greater than signs. Don’t misspell blockquote or forget the forward slash.
Here’s a better example of how to make block quotes:
http://www.w3schools.com/tags/tag_blockquote.asp
I made a mistake:
But you didn’t say socia1ism, you said socialization. Everything else I said still fits though.
Rusty:
I’m sorry, Rusty, but you’re sadly mistaken. By including “Sunday” in the Constitution, the framers were clearly intending the US to be a Norse-gods based country.
Sunday: Day of the Sun.
Monday: Day of the Moon.
Tuesday: Tyr’s day.
Wednesday: Wodin’s day.
Thursday: Thor’s day.
Friday: Frige’s day.
Saturday: Saturn’s day.
Now, if they’d used Saturday, I guess we’d be a Roman-gods nation. Or are we supposed to be a Ra-based nation since we use Sunday?
But we can’t say Christian, because then they would have changed the name Sunday. Other non-English Romance languages use a variation of Dies Dominica (lord’s day), such as the Spanish day domingo.
So there.
Alatham,
You still haven’t answered my question. “What bothers you?”
Sorry for attacking you. Forgive me. Let’s move on.
Now, what bothers you?
And thanks for the blockquote info.
pastahead,
I already answered your question:
Also, apology accepted, thanks.
I should amend that to say this:
[Home schooling] necessarily leads to more children being strongly indoctrinated into intolerant beliefs. Provided there is no negative correlation between religiosity and home schooling.
If there is a large enough negative correlation then my worries in this regard are baseless.
Angel_of_Light,
Your description of why we are a Norse god-based country totally kicked ass. I guess 4-F phreedy will be converting to Odinism. Or maybe Onanism…?
Ahh…just read your first post of day.. Well, that rephrasing sounds a lot different from your original posting of ‘what bothers you’. Thanks for clearing that up. Now you see how that may have ‘provoked’me. And yes, I attacked your ‘opinion’ in defense of my own.
Now , I would say that I agree with you about parent having more control of what comes in through the window…and there being more religious home schoolers in our country… (I will research more on this ‘argument’ : I do believe there are more ’secular’ homeschoolers than we know. if not now, they are on the rise. Freethinker, yes. Ashamed no. (I don’t believe I deserved that) Self-reflecting..perhaps I need a little work. (there, I didn’t have to be ashamed, but I admitted my faults. Not a bit ’self-righteaous’) And I’m always doing that. And that’s what I teach my children. I don’t teach them to be ‘ashamed’ of themselves. Unless, of course , they would go around killing cats or people or raping…hmm
Well, I must say it has been nice arguing with you. (I’m learning a lot)
Now, I do not believe I attacked you in any way in this post. Let’s move on and try another approach. Sorry for the confusion on my end and trying to make your opinion mine. I’m not ‘ashamed’ of that. I’m regretful, perhaps. But ashamed just doesn’t seem the right word.
Gotta run. I not only have to defend myself with ‘like-minded’ people, I sill have those home schooling, bible thumpers on my tail! I will look into this argument further and get back to you if I find anything worth bringing to the post about(homeschool, exposure, socialization with all ‘walks of life’ , etc. )
Rna2Dna
Actually, YHWH can be found in this segment, but I found Allah in a more concentrated part, so that took precedence. Also, since most Americans don’t use the form YHWH as the recognized form of name usage for their god.
Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the
Angel Of Light
Good point about the Norse gods.
pastahead,
You’re right, I did phrase my original argument poorly, but I do think you were out of line to jump on my back so quickly. If there’s a thin line between being clear and being verbose, then I apologize for not even approaching that line originally.
I’d say you’re probably right, and with the recent promotion of intelligent design in schools, this is trend I would welcome.
Shame is like any other emotion. It’s certainly not appropriate all the time, but it should show up occasionally (since nobody is perfect).
I think we just have different standards for what constitutes “shame.” The dictionary is vague here:
The word “strong” is what’s throwing us here. You simply require more embarrassment before you’ll start calling it shame.
When you said that you never feel shame, I took that to mean that you never mistakes worthy of feeling embarrassed about. That was unrealistic of me and I’ll apologize for this as well.
I wonder if the common use of “shame” amongst the religious causes secular people to avoid using the word altogether? Similar to how “faith” used to be a useful word. “Faith” has been used in so many Equivocation fallacies* that it has lost its meaning.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equivocation_fallacy
Anywho, glad we got that cleared up. Take care.
Phree
dont worry if GOD doesnt want a kid to drop out God will not let him or her since GOD IS ALL POWERFULL. remember god is everywhere !!! LOL
Well…someone at least read the first part of the constitution…
Now, give me a good “secular” explanation why the “Constitution” would give the president the Christian Sabbath off?
And if they wanted to be a truly secular government, then why sign it “In the Year of Our Lord”?
A definite recognition of the Christian God.
And don’t use the lame argument that, that’s just how they did it in those days, for that only strengthens my argument…
And tell me…why would a secular government make the following proclamation…
Where were the calls for the myth?
Here’s an easy one…
Why were churches given a pass on paying taxes…?
Phreedm,
No, the only thing that would strengthen your theory is if the constitution mentioned Christianity as being a basis for our government system.
Because people have been ignorant of the constitution for a long time.
If we gave Christian churches tax breaks and didn’t extend the breaks to non-Christian churches, then you’d have a point.
Is it wonderful how Phreeky is now referring to his religion as “the myth”. Who said I leopard can’t change its spots? Keep up the good work guys!
alatham,
Shame: I think you’re onto something there. I agree.
Thanks for your apologies. Good luck with your ‘Mensa’ program/testing. Funny, my first day at blogging and I get a Mensa candidate!
have a good day!
phred:
Something didn’t work there. Answer should have been:
To cause undue burden on the tax base.
Comment from: alatham
How can anyone debate with such an ignorant view?
I love how facts are simply dismissed as others acting stupid. Even your prophets admit America was founded as a Christian nation…
There’s a very basic reason why it was decided that churches should not pay taxes. And yes, it’s Scriptural…
I see no one’s touched the Federal Proclamation of 1799…
Odd how such a document could come from a “secular” government…
By the way…what word did our FF’s use for what we now call “secular”?
phreedm:
We live in a constitutional republic, in which the lawmakers are constrained by constitutional rules, and since the constitution is secular, the lawmakers SHOULD be constrained by secular limits. The fact that they have not always abidden by the limits set forth in the constitution does not change our form of government. As long as we profess to respect the constitution we are professing to being a secular nation.
so we will be a secular country (in principle if not in truth) untill either:
A) the constitution is changed to accomodate a specific religion
B) we completely throw out the constitution and revert to monarchy/theocracy/whatever.
as for churches, they were not taxed because it was argued at the time that to tax them would violate the first amendmant.
phreedm:
as for your proclamation. read up on the treaty of tripoli (1796).
from the treaty:
what kind of “christian nation” produced this treaty phreedm?
http://tinyurl.com/33qpu8
funny how our founding fathers produced this document, but now we have fundies pushing holy wars in the name of patriotism.
(yes I know they started it, mostly)
I know, 6th post in a row, but I kept looking.
a point of contention of the treaty of tripoli is that the accepted translation (by Barlow) isn’t really anything like the original arabic treaty. in fact the infamous article 11, which states that the US is in no way based on the christian religion, is not found in the arabic translation.
nevertheless, the Barlow translation containing article 11 is the translation that was submitted to the senate and signed into law by John Adams. Since article 11 was in place when the senate reviewed the treaty, it can be assumed that it received the the stamp of approval along with the rest of the treaty.
http://tinyurl.com/34goqm
FW:
I’ve had rounds w/Phreddy Phallacymaster on this 1 before.
He’ll trot out a number of nauseating Bartonian neologisms about this 1. Including the treaty w/the Kalaskian Indians, the NW ordinance, all sorts of nonsense.
He gets his ‘patriotisms’ from wallbuilders.com.
A tainted, multi-debunked source that he SWEARS by.
Because, as we all know, religious folk ’see it the way they call it’, not ‘call it the way they see it’.
Flying Weasel
It’s almost as though Adams and the Senate were trying to tell Americans something rather than the “Mussulmen”. I wonder what that could have been? Hmmm …
Krystalline Apostate,
Ha Ha! Loving it!
Sorry folks but, get me wound up on a jesus freak and I haven’t met One that can take me down yet.
Come on you little freaky bastards let me have it! Wind up your God-idea an have a go.
Phreedm,
I’ve learned it’s pointless to attempt to debate with you. If you have a point, then make it yourself, don’t ask us to make it for you.
This is a subject I am passionate about. Our kids homeschooled/independent studied for high school, and I have been affiliated with several homeschool organizations, one of them being John Holt Society. One of my sons went on to earn a degree in Physics, our other son is becoming an accountant, and our daughter has a Masters from Yale (where she went on full scholarship.) Ivy League schools generally look well upon homeschoolers because they are usually independent thinkers, self-starters and have an eagerness to learn and investigate things on their own.
Fundamentalist Christians are giving homeschooling a bad name. If you do research on Homeschooling in general, the outcomes are nearly always positive. I am an advocate for the right to homeschool despite the ignorant bible thumpers who want to keep their kids from reality. Being a past teacher, I have found that even if their children are in the public school system, children from fundie homes are indoctrinated with their sky daddy beliefs and tell teachers in front of all the other children that they are wrong and their Bible is right and that the teacher is telling lies. It takes up class time “debating” with these kids who won’t back down.
Dealing with these fundamentalist Christian kids’ parents is extremely frustrating, and they always win when they pull out the ?religious tolerance? card.
I now work for a company that prepares and scores academic achievement tests (most school districts do not score their own tests) and we must give religious answers special consideration, and those answers based on belief are not counted against the students. Religious answers to questions are not counted in the overall score and special adjustments are made for them. A student who simply gets the answer wrong, or part of the answer wrong do not have the privilege of any special consideration.
Now let’s consider California where homeschooling parents have to be “credentialed” to teach their own children.
Certification means very little. It?s equivalent to the state staying you are licensed to cut hair in a hair salon. The certification is more of ?red tape? and for security measures in a school setting than academic. Teaching certification is more about crowd control than it is subject matter. Most people who have a high school or college degree can teach their children. For subjects you don?t know, there is always someone who does within the Homeschooling network.
Parents are trusted enough and encouraged to tutor several hours of homework each night and there are no credentials required for that. There are no credentials required for these parents to come up to class and help teachers tutor children in the classroom.
Parents teach their kids many things that schools do not have time to and we don?t need any certification or credentials to do it. In our experience of raising children, we have come across excellent teachers in the school system, and unfortunately too many bad teachers. Certification is not going to guarantee a good teacher. Also, we have encountered teachers who teach kids wrong information and who sneak in their religious beliefs and propaganda ever-so-subtly into the classrooms.
As for the state of California, they have always been the most against homeschooling and freedom of education. They test the hell out of kids which takes time away from actually learning something. (and religious answers on those tests are waived anyway, so what the heck?) Like most states, California is more worried about getting federal funding than the quality of a student?s education. If a student has his or her butt at a desk in a school they get state and federal funding for that child for the day. If a kid isn?t in school, no funding that day for the missing students. That is why there is such a big deal about attendance. Homeschooling makes school districts lose money.
?Education? now seems to me perhaps the most authoritarian and dangerous of all the social inventions of mankind. It is the deepest foundation of the modern slave state, in which most people feel themselves to be nothing but producers, consumers, spectators, and ?fans,? driven more and more, in all parts of their lives, by greed, envy, and fear. My concern is not to improve ?education? but to do away with it, to end the ugly and anti-human business of people-shaping and to allow and help people to shape themselves.?
quote by John Holt
I would really hate for Independent thinkers and those who want their children to have an independent education to have their right to homeschool taken away because of a small number of backward fundamentalist god-botherers. I would think that the atheist community would be on the side of independent thought and upholding our individual rights and freedoms.
Hey 4-F Freedy…
Why can’t you support your assertion that your god and/or the “Creator” is mentioned in the Constitution and Bill of Rights…?
Is it because you’re lying… and you know it…?
Sad…
Churches aren’t taxed for the same reason other charities aren’t…
Because they provide some social services…
Or claim to…
Comment from: FlyingWeasel
Why would a secular document mention the Christian Sabath?
Sabath=Sabbath
Comment from: FlyingWeasel
Opinion? Sounds interesting…
Got a link to back up your opinion?
Comment from: FlyingWeasel [Member]
phreedm:
Ah…the old Treaty of Tripoli retreat…
If you used your famed scientific method for trying to figure out how the Treaty of Tripoli and the Proclamation written in 1799 could both be true…you’d easily figure it out. That is, if you were neutral in your seeking the truth…
But I suspect you’re truly not interested in seeking an answer…
Comment from: Rusty Shackleford [
I have…obviously you’re not understanding…
Here, I’ll make it easy…who’s the Christian Creator…?
Then perhaps you’ll see…
Comment from: Rusty Shackleford
Another interesting assertion…
It’s true churches provided many of the social services people now look to the Feds for…
But nope. As I’ve stated…it’s Scriptural…
Phreeky will still be claiming this is a xian nation when he is the only xian left.
4-F freedy…
I don’t know if you’re a liar… or just illiterate…
Either way, you’re wrong on all counts…
Try again…