Senator Obama has distanced himself from his former preacher who said some hateful things about this country. As I read about his speech, I felt anger seethe from my pores.Nobody blames GW Bush for supporting Fallwell, or accused Guiliani of being antisemitic because Pat Robertson endorsed him (and Rudi accepted with glee). This is a ridiculous argument.Listen folks, Christian preachers spew hate ALL THE TIME, and nobody accuses the parishioners of agreeing with everything they say (because nobody believes their preachers anyway). I’m personally more of a Hillary guy, but I’m sure Hillary’s preacher has said things with which I would strongly disagree. Can’t stop hate mongers from mongering hate, and you can’t blame those within earshot.Let’s talk about the war, the economy, and the price of gas, please!
MX,,how many people have you known and liked in your lifetime?Are you willing to be responsible for their every utterance?Of course you would’nt,nor would any reasonable person expect you to be.This nonsense of ,one person, who knew another person ,who said some stuff,and because the one guy knew the other guy,well that suggests that they are indeed in agreement on the subject that the one guy was talking about.Thats fucking ridiculous!!!Its just more smoke being blown up your ass in an effort to divert from any real issues.Really,its all about getting their particular assbag elected.
HATESPEAK?!?! What exactly are you referring to Dave? What exactly do you consider “Hatespeak”?
Is this another crazy jew, ADL inspired witch hunt against anyone who acknowledges Israels apartheid & ethnic cleansing campaign against non-jews in Palestine?
Which statement made by this preacher was false, let alone legally considered “hatespeak”.
If you believe we should “talk about the war, the economy, and the price of gas”, which war should we start with, the war on drugs, the war on terror hoax, the war on crime, the war on poverty, the illegal war on Iraq, the war on Afghanistan, the US funding of the war against non-jews in Palestine, the war in Darfur, …????????
whoops,sorry,for the double,i was going for launchcast,and …well…I missed
In addition to Dave’s rabid ranting and finger pointing, I’m really disappointed at the other disturbing comments that reek of racism by Alexatheist and God Free.
Their comments sound like something that would be preached at a Klan meeting, not on a so-called freethought blog.
Freethinkers should be aware of the injustices faced by people both past and present as well as the laws created to ensure the equality and protection of all people- things like the Declaration of Human Rights, the UN Charter, the Bill of Rights, US Constitution, Geneva Convention, etc.
The disgraceful simple minded fallacies expressed used to justify genocide, illegal war, racism, imperialism, and blind faith nationalism is something I’d expect from cult members, not self righteous atheists.
If McCain were elected we would be in Iran in 2009. Sorry, correction, poor Americans with limited opportunities would be fighting and dying in Iraq. We would be footing the multi-trillion dollar price tag while the captains of industry got even richer.
More Wars, Less Jobs
Assbag (thenks flashbazzzbo) for Pres
Iraq -> Iran
Just ask McCain.
And can the flag waving proud Americans here explain to me and others just how acknowledging, addressing and condemning the horrendous crimes and injustices committed by the US government, US military and US citizens is equated to “hating America”???
Since when is the USA defined by it’s crimes? Since when does anything but a cult-like, blind faith, head in the sand, nazi-like allegiance to the government make one unpatriotic?
I’m proud to support & defend the US Constitution & the rule of law, but ashamed and embarrassed to be an American because of the crimes my government & fellow citizens committ
and the level of stupidity & arrogance embraced by so many Americans.
And NO, I won’t leave, I choose to stay and fix things and fight fascism and stupidity.
any white who votes for obama is gullible.this is funny as hell watching white liberals squirm.black preachers have always preached hate whitey.obamas’ mother wouldn’t be allowed in that church which shows absolute lack of character on his part.
obama is trash turning his back on the family that raised him how dare he insult his grandmother when his black father didn’t lift a finger for him.
the preacher is from older gen.but obama has no excuse being biracial and younger why didn’t he find a multiracial church they do exist.
Secularman
we will never rest until the gov’t compensates us for our lost property in slaves.
Secularman,
I don’t know how anybody can twist thoughts as you have. I do not condone genocide, illegal war, racism, imperialism, and blind faith nationalism, nor did I say anything like that.
All I said, and will say again, is GET OVER IT, MOVE ON, FIX WHAT NEEDS FIXING NOW, AND QUIT HARPING ON SLAVERY. The past is OVER!
I’m almost afraid to ask…
Hmmm…what crimes?
What fascism?
EJ
I agree with a lot of what you are saying. Don’t get me wrong, I like Obama, he’s my senator and I’ve voted for him. But, he is not the hope that people are looking for. I can’t understand how Obama can run on his Iraq record when he wasn’t even there at the time of the vote to authorize the use of force. That would be like Hillary taking credit for opposing the Vietnam war. Supporters point to his speech in 2004 but if words are so important then how do they explain the my position is bush’s position quote? If you want to go by Obama’s record he has voted to fund the war every single time, while others have voted against it. Obama is more of a politician than people realize and I think there will be a lot of disappointment from the left when they come around to realize it.
phreedm
After WWII there has been a few,(only country to use nuclear weapons and on civilian non-combatants, CIA conducting acts of terrorism and false flag operations in central & south America and Iran to overthrow democratic nations) but recently: Bush election fraud, Bush telling lies to the American people and international community in order to launch wars of aggression, starting an illegal war of aggression, kidnapping, imprisoning & torturing people without charges, continued approval, support & funding of the ethnic cleansing of Palestine, etc which boils down to the crimes of violating the US Constitution, UN Charter, Nuremberg Principles, and Geneva Convention. And that just an easy reader starter.
If you bother to see the forest through the trees, you might notice the erosion of civil rights, corporations & banks controlling politics and media (”corporatism” blending state and corporate power), supremacy of the military, rampant nationalism, demonization of scapegoats, disdain for human rights, arts and intellectuals, labor power suppressed, obsession with crime & punishment and national security, rampant cronyism & corruption, fraudulent elections,corporate power protected by the government, religion and government are intertwined, rigid sexuality/sexism /family values preached by government… anyone with an open mind can see all these traits in the “good ole USA” and these are all defining traits of fascism.
GFG,
there was no twisting. You believe that the only thing the USA ever did wrong was slavery of kidnapped Africans and the genocide of Native Americans and it should all be dismissed. Yes the past is the past. The slavery and genocide the USA was founded upon is long gone, but there have been more recent things like oh, Jim Crow laws, constant violations of treaties with surviving native americans forced on reservations, …
And your rationale is outrageous that since native Americans fought amongst each other, the US policy of extermination and manifest destiny, which makes Hitlers final solution look weak, just isn’t that bad in your eyes, just like the US national industrial slave trade and cultural extermination being not that bad to you since there were tribes within the continent of Africa who had forms of slavery and that some of those tribes from that continent sold those of rival tribes to European slave traders.
You have no problem with preachers hooting “God Bless America” giving divine support of US military Aggression and corruption but are angered by a preacher that says “God Damn America” in disgust with the crimes and injustices of our country? Onward Xian Soldiers is okay, but a preacher who preaches against national wrongs is horrible?
Are you going to accuse history teachers who teach kids about slavery, race laws, segregation etc, of hate speech and teaching hate?
I fully support the words of Cosby telling people to take responsibility for their fate and lives, but that doesn’t mean that the byproducts and effects of the national criminal policies of the USA should be dismissed as a whole, especially when some of these policies were only a generation away.
You claim you have “blood kin who have died to protect the freedom of those like Obama’s minister who would damn the country which gives him the freedom to curse it.” So which of your blood kin fought in the revolutionary war for independence? Because the last time troops from this continent fought for freedom they were firing muskets at guys in red jackets.
SecularMan
Most of the liberal-bashing numbnuts can’t even get over 8 years of Clinton yet they feel free to tell blacks to get over hundreds of years of slavery and gut wrenching discrimination. Their suffering from the anxiety of a cognitive dissonance provoked by a black man making their traditional white politicians look like rank amateurs despite their so-called “experience”.
Their -> They’re
EJ
So not only have you misrepresented Obams’s position but now you misrespresent mine. Did I say I was opposed to the expansion? Did I even mention it?
Our military is being destroyed by BushCo and his sidekick McCain. I am all for restoring what they have destroyed and getting some adults into office that know how to restrain themselves from throwing temper tantrums that kill 100s of thousands, displays millions and cost trillions of dollars.
I am also all for getting adults into office that know the value of regulating
the traditional banking system and the investment banking system. Do you think that John Keating-Five McCain is that person? If you do now then you wont in a few months when it becomes obvious just what deregulation has wrought. I hope you are ready for what is to come.
displays -> displace
I knew I’d regret asking…
SM, are you related to “What”?
Basically…you need to learn what fascism really is…
Government control of industry and policies such as minimum wage are just a few characteristics…
But you’re filled with so much rage and hatred there’s no way that wall will ever be scaled with facts…
Just out of curiosity, what do you find good in life…?
Getting back to the original thread…
For anyone who has actually served his fellow man and gone into the inner city, it’s obvious that there is reverse racism in many areas. Not everyone, but it’s definitely there. It’s always been a curiosity as to why some within the black community don’t want to integrate.
Listening to Rev. Wrights sermons sheds some light on the problem…
It also makes perfect sense why Michelle Obama made the statement about “finally” being proud of her country…
Secular man,
Again, you put words in my mouth.
However, beating a dead horse has yet to cause it to rise to it’s feet and win the race.
Phreedm,
You made the same point about your supposed anti-fascism a few weeks ago and were called to task on that. And yet here you repeat the same nonsense.
From wikipedia:
Those are adjectives that describe you much better than the people you call “fascist.”
I agree with you here, it’s a difficult problem.
One of the problems is the use of terms like “reverse racism.” Blacks who hate whites are racist, they are not “reverse racists” and that behavior is just as disgusting as whites hating blacks. But this is just a minor point.
The problem as I see it is that people draw artificial lines in the sand (such as which church you go to, or your skin color, or how you dress) in order to build a community in order to exclude others.
How do we get people to stop drawing these lines in the sand? How do we get people to accept those that are different? We need to find the source of these problems instead of constantly fighting the symptoms as we so often do. If I had a solution, I would present it, but I don’t.
I applaud her comment. America has done horrible things in the recent past and I do not feel proud of the direction my country is currently headed.
You do not need to be proud of something in order to recognize that it needs to be fixed. America’s ego is part of the problem, it needs to be tempered.
SecularMan,
I’m with you all the way. There is plenty of American history that we should be disgusted by, not praising. And the present is the same way.
I’m not proud of America at the moment, but I do have hope for its future.
Why can’t Phreeky read?
Comment from: phreedm
I knew I’d regret asking…
…stupid religiously insane questions at an atheists stite. Yet, somehow, you neven stop…
SM, are you related to “What”?
phreakshow, are you related to the Westboro Baptist Homo Haters?
Basically…you need to learn what fascism really is…
…and who better to tell everyone what they know nothing about than a religiously insane phreakshow?
Government control of industry and policies such as minimum wage are just a few characteristics…
…but, somehow, phreakshow forgot to mention the controlling of the media, abuse of government power to harrass and intimidate your political opponents, or any of the other fascist tactics being employed by today’s Republican’ts. Funny, that…
But you’re filled with so much rage and hatred there’s no way that wall will ever be scaled with facts…
…unlike the hatred and rage coming from you, phreakshow. Right?
Just out of curiosity, what do you find good in life…?
Just out of curiosity, why is it that you expect to be able to be considered seriously when you ask questions? Especially when you have the bad habits of ignoring others’ questions to you, and insisting that others answer you while ignoring everyone else?
Nice distortion of the comments and positions of someone else around here, too, you sick cultist. Did your invisible sky fairy give you some sort of waiver for all the sinful behavior you engage in here? Perhaps you might ponder that a bit before you open the vacuous pie-hole in the front of your melon again.
Alatham
I have never been a fan of pride or patriotism. Pride and patriotism are very similar to piety and theism.
Tom
Have you read the Amber Spyglass yet? Phreeky is Father Gomez.
4-F Freedy’s anti-facts have been destroyed by truth… again…
Sad that he never learns… but expected…
What,
I agree, to an extent. I don’t think pride is an inherently bad thing, but it must come as a reaction to personal actions or thoughts.
It is stupid to be proud of belonging to a certain family, or belonging to a certain country (if you were born there), or having a certain skin color. These are things that nobody has any control over, so when they take the credit for it (by feeling proud) it’s really just a way of shutting others out.
For instance, according to my father (who is not crazy) I’m a distant relative (though not descendant) of Abraham Lincoln. His son, Robert Todd Lincoln married the daughter of Senator James Harlan. I happen to be a member of the Harlan family, though my exact relation to James Harlan is a bit unclear. This is a cool piece of family history, but I’d be fooling myself if I decided to feel proud about it. Doing so would be no different from saying “look how much better than you I am, Abraham Lincoln’s son shows up on my family tree.” Big deal.
On the other hand, I feel plenty proud of the music I write, the toys I’ve helped design, my girlfriend, and that I live a life full of rationality. I don’t feel this pride is misplaced or uncalled for (not that I think you would suggest such a thing).
In the end, I have no problem with pride as long as it’s reasonable. But patriotism very rarely falls into the “reasonable” category. I think you’ll agree with me here, patriotism is a detriment to fixing America’s problems.
Also, I see the Phreedm Father Gomez connection. Terrifying but true.
obama and mccain have both sought the support of bigots and should not be elected president.
Pictures and meetings of Hillary and Bill Clinton are now surfacing connecting them with Rev Wright as well as other religious nuts. I guess the difference between the Clintons and Obama is that the Clintons were not in church (a very sacred place to us atheists) when Wright was ranting. Oh wait neither was Obama.
what
obama does not seem to be hurt too bad by all this.religion on the other hand did not come out looking too good.
Comment from: atheistmike
Only if one believes McCain is a true conservative…
Here’s a prime example of why I no longer response to “tom” or his twin “What”…
and his response…he obviously doesn’t know what “just a few” means…
According to your counterpart…deregulation from the republicans is destroying America…and yet you claim the republicans are the one’s who want more government control…
You guys better do a better job with the inner office memos…
Comment from: alatham
So very true…and it’s generally the Dems who develop policies based upon artificial lines…
Here is her exact quote…
For those who didn’t see Pat Buchanan’s column on Obama’s speech:
Pat Buchanan
3/22/08 Editorial in Response to Barak Obama Speech re: Pastor Jeremiah Wright
Whites have right to be angry, too
How would he pull it off? I wondered.
How would Barack explain to his press groupies why he sat silent in a pew for 20 years as the Rev. Jermiah Wright delivered racist rants against white America for our maligning of Fidel and Gadhafi, and inventing AIDS to infect and kill black people?
How would he justify not walking out as Wright spewed his venom about ?the U.S. of KKK America,? and howled, ?God damn America!?
My hunch was right. Barack would turn the tables.
Yes, Barak agreed, Wright?s statements were ?controversial,? and ?divisive,? and ?racially charged,? reflecting a ?distorted view of America.?
But we must understand the man in full and the black experience out of which the Rev. Wright came: 350 years of slavery and segregation.
Barack then listed black grievances and informed us what white America must do to close the racial divide and heal the country.
The ?white community,? said Barack, must start ?acknowledging that what ails the African-American community does not just exist in the minds of black people; that the legacy of discrimination?and current incidents of discrimination, while less overt than in the past?are real and must be addressed. Not just with words, but with deeds? .?
And what deeds must we perform to heal ourselves and our country?
The ?white community? must invest more money in black schools and communities, enforce civil rights laws, ensure fairness in the criminal justice system and provide this generation of blacks with ?ladders of opportunity? that were ?unavailable? to Barack?s and the Rev. Wright?s generations.
What is wrong with Barack?s prognosis and Barack?s cure?
Only this. It is the same old con, the same old shakedown that black hustlers have been running since the Kerner Commission blamed the riots in Harlem, Watts, Newark, Detroit and a hundred other cities on, as Nixon put it, ?everybody but the rioters themselves.?
Was ?white racism? really responsible for those black men looting auto dealerships and liquor stores, and burning down their own communities, as Otto Kerner said?that liberal icon until the fed put him away for bribery.
Barack says we need to have a conversation about race in America.
Fair enough. But this time, it has to be a two-way conversation. White America needs to be heard from, not just lectured to.
This time, the Silent Majority needs to have its convictions, grievances and demands heard. And among them are these:
First, America has been the best country on earth for black folks. It was here that 600,000 black people, brought from Africa in slave ships, grew into a community of 40 million, were introduced to Christian salvation and reached the greatest levels of freedom and prosperity blacks have ever known.
Second, no people anywhere has done more to lift up blacks than white Americans. Untold trillions have been spent since the ?60s on welfare, food stamps, rent supplements, Section 8 housing, Pell grants, student loans, legal services, Medicaid, Earned Income Tax Credits and poverty programs designed to bring the African-American community into the mainstream
Governments, businesses and colleges have engaged in discrimination against white folks?with affirmative action, contract set-asides and quotas?to advance black applicants over white applicants.
Churches, foundations, civic groups, schools and individuals all over America have donated time and money to support soup kitchens, adult education, day care, retirement and nursing homes for blacks.
We hear the grievances. Where is the gratitude?
Is white America really responsible for the fact that the crime and incarceration rates for African[Americans are seven times those of white America? Is it really white America?s fault that illegitimacy in the African-American community has hit 70 percent and the black dropout rate from high school in some cities has reached 50 percent?
Is that the fault of white America or, first and foremost, a failure of the black community itself?
As for racism, its ugliest manifestation is in interrracial crime, and especially interrracial crimes of violence. Is Barack Obama aware that while white criminals choose black victims 3 percent of the time, black criminals choose white victims 45 percent of the time?
Is Barack aware that black-on-white rapes are 100 times more common that the reverse, that black-on white robberies were 139 times as common in the first three years of this decade as the reverse?
We have all heard ad nauseam from the Rev. Al about Tawana Brawley, the Duke rape case and Jena. And all turned out to be hoaxes. But about the epidemic of black assaults on whites that are real, we hear nothing.
Sorry, Barack, some of us have heard it all before, about 40 years and 40 trillion tax dollars ago.
Sounds to me like Buchanan ignored half the speech.
Oh well.
r4d
No shit!
Gee…r4d,
Can’t even admit you were wrong about Obama?
How is it Obama can deny knowing about Rev. Wright’s comments on Saturday night, but by Tuesday morning he was forced to admit he knew exactly what was being said?
Is that the kind of individual you want as President…?
Any clear thinking American could see right through Obama’s approach…
He’s toast. Period.
Phreeky needs to get used to saying it … President Obama.
Pheedy doesn’t talk much about jeebus freak Hagee who is one of John McCain’s spiritual leaders.
http://www.alternet.org/blogs/peek/48397/
Hagee wants to attack Iran to bring on the end of the world, and McCain agrees.
phreedm
I am often wrong about many things, but it seems like every time I decide to write Obama off he says something else that really grabs me. That speech is probably the ultimate example. I was already having serious doubts after reading a little article in our local alternative paper about his time in Chicago, and then the Wright controversy started spreading… so I tuned to his race speech feeling extremely cynical and put off. But the substance of that speech was completely unexpected and beyond brilliant. And it certainly wasn’t the easy way out. The righties can parse it and blame him for ‘outing his grandmother’ or take the Buchanan approach and turn white guilt into white resentment, but it just shows that they, that you, are not even attempting to listen. So oh well.
First of all, that’s not what he said. It’s been proven, despite what you’ve been told by Drudge or Newsmax, that he wasn’t present in the congregation during those recordings. He did however admit to hearing controversial statements from Wright, which he later explained had mostly to do with social issues. Is that bullshit? Perhaps. But I can relate to his refusal to completely disassociate himself with Wright or that church, because it’s very much like my own refusal to completely disassociate myself with many in the atheist community who often say things that I completely disagree with. Or better yet, how it’s impossible for me to completely disassociate myself from this country no matter how screwed up it gets. You have to work with the community you have. Isolation accomplishes nothing. That much I’ve learned.
So far, yes. I’ll let you know who I actually end up voting for come Nov 8th.
Oh, one more thing so it doesn’t seem like I’m ragging on the atheist community.
There are many things I’ve said on this blog and elsewhere that now make me cringe, and it is that increasing self-awareness that has recently kept me from judging my peers, both religious and nonreligious, too harshly. I guess there is something in the substance and pattern of Obama’s rhetoric that has led me to believe he has a similar self-awareness. Maybe I’m being misled, but it seems to me that such an attitude would be pretty hard to fake. Especially in a politician.
Comment from: phreedm
Here’s a prime example of why I no longer response to “tom” or his twin “What”…
…because you can’t tell that we’re actually two separate people, with two separate sets of ideas/ideals/mores/ethics, that might
not agree with absolutely everything?
…because you’re making up some kind of hypocritical lie to cover up your ignorance and incivility?
…because you know that there’s no way you will be able to respond in an adult manner to those who take the time to point out how very wrong you are?
I think right here is where I point out that this is yet another lie from a supposed christian who is also supposedly interested in being honest with its’ fellow humans. Phreakshow has never responded in a civil, rational manner to any of my comments here; has cherry-picked my comments to build up straw men (who are then attacked in its’ comments) and (unsuccessfully) try and knock them down; here, misrepresents both my comments and those of another regular commenter here; and, of course, continues to do so in the condescending, arrogant manner that it takes others to task for doing.
Pretty much SOP for the vast majority of christians I have been privileged (cough) to have to deal with.
Comment from: phreedm
and his response…he obviously doesn’t know what “just a few” means…
LOL. Phreeky is trying to convince himself that HE is not responding to ME.
Hey, twin!
What has phreakshow told us we’re thinking now?
Tom
I knew you were going to say that of course.
Tom
I’m sure we will disagree on much in the future. I trust that we will be rational when presenting our respective arguments when that time comes. Oh and for you Star Trek fans, rational does not mean dispassionate.
Live long and prosper. \\ //
\\//
What:
I agree that we will disagree.
I trust nothing and no one. I get pretty emotional sometimes in my responses. I agree that we’ve done relatively okay, so far.
It sounds like you might not be a Trekker (praise Koresh that you don’t sound like a Trekkie – and, if you’re neither, you won’t get the joke or know the difference between the two). Don’t worry – nobody’s perfect…
Peace and long life to you…