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	<title>Comments on: Nader Factor, Redux</title>
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	<link>http://atheists.org/blog/2008/02/24/nader_factor_redux</link>
	<description>A Blog of Atheist Thought</description>
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		<title>By: Cynic</title>
		<link>http://atheists.org/blog/2008/02/24/nader_factor_redux/comment-page-1#comment-77649</link>
		<dc:creator>Cynic</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Unknown, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">#comment-77649</guid>
		<description>A favorite maxim of mine:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
When the intended outcome of your actions will predictably differ from the actual outcome, your intentions aren&#039;t relevant.  Going through with the action anyway is tantamount to purposely chosing to promote the undesired result.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Nader put &quot;W&quot; in the White House to begin with.  And you helped him do it.  Just a thought.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A favorite maxim of mine:</p>
<p>When the intended outcome of your actions will predictably differ from the actual outcome, your intentions aren&#8217;t relevant.  Going through with the action anyway is tantamount to purposely chosing to promote the undesired result.</p>
<p>Nader put &#8220;W&#8221; in the White House to begin with.  And you helped him do it.  Just a thought.</p>
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		<title>By: cincyatheist</title>
		<link>http://atheists.org/blog/2008/02/24/nader_factor_redux/comment-page-1#comment-77650</link>
		<dc:creator>cincyatheist</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Unknown, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">#comment-77650</guid>
		<description>Is his support for impeaching Bush/Cheney really relevant?  They&#039;ll be gone by the time Nader would be in power anyway?&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Honestly, he doesn&#039;t seem to have much better positions than Clinton or Obama.  Why is he against nuclear power?  No mention of SOCAS?  What about energy independence, education, the economy?&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
He does not seem to have a very wide array of issues.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Is his support for impeaching Bush/Cheney really relevant?  They&#8217;ll be gone by the time Nader would be in power anyway?</p>
<p>Honestly, he doesn&#8217;t seem to have much better positions than Clinton or Obama.  Why is he against nuclear power?  No mention of SOCAS?  What about energy independence, education, the economy?</p>
<p>He does not seem to have a very wide array of issues.</p>
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		<title>By: diane</title>
		<link>http://atheists.org/blog/2008/02/24/nader_factor_redux/comment-page-1#comment-77651</link>
		<dc:creator>diane</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Unknown, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">#comment-77651</guid>
		<description>I wonder if Nadar is on the GOP payroll.  He always seems to popup every four years wanting to be President when the whole four years leading up that I haven&#039;t seen or heard him do anything.  &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Did he do anything to stop Roberts &amp; Alito being confirmed?  Did he do anything about the gutting of qualified lawyers being tossed out and replaced by unqualified loyal Bushites so that our Judicial system is now broken?  What about calling for impeachment?  What about...well just about any fucking thing that&#039;s been happening in the past years since the Bush Crime Family has been in office?!?!?  Oh, I see, it&#039;s not about Nadar really doing anything but shouting that he wants to be President every four years.  And his &quot;supporters&quot; don&#039;t seem phased by this. Well, good for them then, I guess like having Bush in charge and like living under Republican rule.  &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
So between Ellen wanting all atheist to not vote and with the supporters of Nardar voting for him.  Well, Karl Rove himself couldn&#039;t come up with a better plan to ensure  Republian control! </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I wonder if Nadar is on the GOP payroll.  He always seems to popup every four years wanting to be President when the whole four years leading up that I haven&#8217;t seen or heard him do anything.  </p>
<p>Did he do anything to stop Roberts &amp; Alito being confirmed?  Did he do anything about the gutting of qualified lawyers being tossed out and replaced by unqualified loyal Bushites so that our Judicial system is now broken?  What about calling for impeachment?  What about&#8230;well just about any fucking thing that&#8217;s been happening in the past years since the Bush Crime Family has been in office?!?!?  Oh, I see, it&#8217;s not about Nadar really doing anything but shouting that he wants to be President every four years.  And his &#8220;supporters&#8221; don&#8217;t seem phased by this. Well, good for them then, I guess like having Bush in charge and like living under Republican rule.  </p>
<p>So between Ellen wanting all atheist to not vote and with the supporters of Nardar voting for him.  Well, Karl Rove himself couldn&#8217;t come up with a better plan to ensure  Republian control!</p>
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		<title>By: phreedm</title>
		<link>http://atheists.org/blog/2008/02/24/nader_factor_redux/comment-page-1#comment-77653</link>
		<dc:creator>phreedm</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Unknown, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">#comment-77653</guid>
		<description>Diane...it&#039;s a good thing you don&#039;t believe everything you hear...&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Tell me exactly how Clinton helped atheists?  Did AA complain when he stood in the pulpit of a church in Baltimore in 1993 and claimed God wanted his budget?&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Which is better...&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
A republican who tells you they believe in God and won&#039;t vote to infringe personal rights of the people...and then votes that way?&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Or a democratic who says they&#039;re simpathetic to non-believers and that they&#039;ll vote to support the sep of chruch and state...but then end up voting against your position anyway?&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
It&#039;s fascinating to me how many groups think the Dems support them and yet when it comes time to prove it, they either iimplement a policy or vote against that group...&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Blacks, Gays, Atheists&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
So again I ask...how have the Dems supported atheists?&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
BTW....Bush fired 6 lawyers. Clinton fired over 50.  Were you as upset then?&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
 &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Diane&#8230;it&#8217;s a good thing you don&#8217;t believe everything you hear&#8230;</p>
<p>Tell me exactly how Clinton helped atheists?  Did AA complain when he stood in the pulpit of a church in Baltimore in 1993 and claimed God wanted his budget?</p>
<p>Which is better&#8230;</p>
<p>A republican who tells you they believe in God and won&#8217;t vote to infringe personal rights of the people&#8230;and then votes that way?</p>
<p>Or a democratic who says they&#8217;re simpathetic to non-believers and that they&#8217;ll vote to support the sep of chruch and state&#8230;but then end up voting against your position anyway?</p>
<p>It&#8217;s fascinating to me how many groups think the Dems support them and yet when it comes time to prove it, they either iimplement a policy or vote against that group&#8230;</p>
<p>
Blacks, Gays, Atheists</p>
<p>So again I ask&#8230;how have the Dems supported atheists?</p>
<p>BTW&#8230;.Bush fired 6 lawyers. Clinton fired over 50.  Were you as upset then?</p>
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		<title>By: phreedm</title>
		<link>http://atheists.org/blog/2008/02/24/nader_factor_redux/comment-page-1#comment-77654</link>
		<dc:creator>phreedm</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Unknown, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">#comment-77654</guid>
		<description>democratic=democrat&lt;br /&gt;
simpathetic=sympathetic&lt;br /&gt;
chrunh=church&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Yikes...give me the cold medicine&lt;br /&gt;
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>democratic=democrat<br />
simpathetic=sympathetic<br />
chrunh=church</p>
<p>Yikes&#8230;give me the cold medicine</p>
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		<title>By: dsilverman</title>
		<link>http://atheists.org/blog/2008/02/24/nader_factor_redux/comment-page-1#comment-77655</link>
		<dc:creator>dsilverman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Unknown, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">#comment-77655</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m in total disagreement.  A vote for Nader is NOT a vote for the GOP, or a vote against the Dems.  It&#039;s a vote for Nader, and it&#039;s completely legitimate.  The world is not black and white, and the political system should not be considered a duopoly.  &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
If the candidates don&#039;t support me, I don&#039;t support them.  If McBush wasn&#039;t so bigoted against us (&quot;Christian Nation&quot;), I&#039;d vote for him.   If Obama and Clinton can&#039;t even acknowledge us, then f-them.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m in total disagreement.  A vote for Nader is NOT a vote for the GOP, or a vote against the Dems.  It&#8217;s a vote for Nader, and it&#8217;s completely legitimate.  The world is not black and white, and the political system should not be considered a duopoly.  </p>
<p>If the candidates don&#8217;t support me, I don&#8217;t support them.  If McBush wasn&#8217;t so bigoted against us (&#8220;Christian Nation&#8221;), I&#8217;d vote for him.   If Obama and Clinton can&#8217;t even acknowledge us, then f-them.</p>
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		<title>By: Cynic</title>
		<link>http://atheists.org/blog/2008/02/24/nader_factor_redux/comment-page-1#comment-77656</link>
		<dc:creator>Cynic</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Unknown, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">#comment-77656</guid>
		<description>With respect, Dave, ideology is nice but the reality of this matter is that third (and fourth, fifth, etc) parties are almost invaribly ones that are even more liberal than the Democrats.  That means in any given election, most of the votes that go to those parties are votes that would have otherwise &quot;voted against&quot; the conservative alternatives.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Again, take the 2000 election.  That contest was ridiculously close as you&#039;ll recall.  And Nader got something on the order of 3% of the vote.  Sure, the Democrats are to blame for their own losses.  Sure, anybody with a position to push should be allowed to push it.  Absolutely.  No one is denying that.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
BUT -- it cannot be denied that if Nader had not run, or if no one had voted for him, then Bush would not have won.  The math doesn&#039;t lie here.  Not by a long shot.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
It&#039;s like any strategy board game.  You employ the stategy that puts you in the best position, and, failing that, the one that puts you in the best position possible.  You don&#039;t stand on principle in a board game.  Principle doesn&#039;t help you win.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
(Not that I&#039;m against principle, mind you.  It&#039;s just that I&#039;ve decided to prioritize NOT having another 4 to 8 years of Republican domination over standing on a principle that I&#039;d be standing on either way.)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Besides, Nader is a turd.  Always has been, always will be.  His attack against the Corvair was purely self-serving.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>With respect, Dave, ideology is nice but the reality of this matter is that third (and fourth, fifth, etc) parties are almost invaribly ones that are even more liberal than the Democrats.  That means in any given election, most of the votes that go to those parties are votes that would have otherwise &#8220;voted against&#8221; the conservative alternatives.</p>
<p>Again, take the 2000 election.  That contest was ridiculously close as you&#8217;ll recall.  And Nader got something on the order of 3% of the vote.  Sure, the Democrats are to blame for their own losses.  Sure, anybody with a position to push should be allowed to push it.  Absolutely.  No one is denying that.</p>
<p>BUT &#8212; it cannot be denied that if Nader had not run, or if no one had voted for him, then Bush would not have won.  The math doesn&#8217;t lie here.  Not by a long shot.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s like any strategy board game.  You employ the stategy that puts you in the best position, and, failing that, the one that puts you in the best position possible.  You don&#8217;t stand on principle in a board game.  Principle doesn&#8217;t help you win.</p>
<p>(Not that I&#8217;m against principle, mind you.  It&#8217;s just that I&#8217;ve decided to prioritize NOT having another 4 to 8 years of Republican domination over standing on a principle that I&#8217;d be standing on either way.)</p>
<p>Besides, Nader is a turd.  Always has been, always will be.  His attack against the Corvair was purely self-serving.</p>
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		<title>By: what</title>
		<link>http://atheists.org/blog/2008/02/24/nader_factor_redux/comment-page-1#comment-77657</link>
		<dc:creator>what</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Unknown, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">#comment-77657</guid>
		<description>Cynic and Diane are spot on. Nader is a dufus - and now an old dufus - that just shows up every four years to massage his ego and then fall back into his fecklessness. I would not doubt that he is getting GOP help. The GOP is just that desperate. </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Cynic and Diane are spot on. Nader is a dufus &#8211; and now an old dufus &#8211; that just shows up every four years to massage his ego and then fall back into his fecklessness. I would not doubt that he is getting GOP help. The GOP is just that desperate.</p>
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		<title>By: what</title>
		<link>http://atheists.org/blog/2008/02/24/nader_factor_redux/comment-page-1#comment-77658</link>
		<dc:creator>what</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Unknown, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">#comment-77658</guid>
		<description>David&lt;blockquote&gt;If the candidates don&#039;t support me, I don&#039;t support them.&lt;/blockquote&gt; How is Nader supporting you? &lt;blockquote&gt;If McBush wasn&#039;t so bigoted against us (&quot;Christian Nation&quot;), I&#039;d vote for him.&lt;/blockquote&gt; So less jobs and more war appeals to you? &lt;blockquote&gt;If Obama and Clinton can&#039;t even acknowledge us, then f-them.&lt;/blockquote&gt;Sorry but I&#039;m not a one-issue-voter. I am not going to vote based on how a candidate answers the ill-posed gawd question. This election there will be plenty of well-posed questions and very important ones to base one&#039;s vote upon. As long as the candidate supports the Wall then it&#039;s fine with me if they blather about the fantastical virtues of the FSM to get the FSM-believer vote.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>David<br />
<blockquote>If the candidates don&#8217;t support me, I don&#8217;t support them.</p></blockquote>
<p> How is Nader supporting you?<br />
<blockquote>If McBush wasn&#8217;t so bigoted against us (&#8220;Christian Nation&#8221;), I&#8217;d vote for him.</p></blockquote>
<p> So less jobs and more war appeals to you?<br />
<blockquote>If Obama and Clinton can&#8217;t even acknowledge us, then f-them.</p></blockquote>
<p>Sorry but I&#8217;m not a one-issue-voter. I am not going to vote based on how a candidate answers the ill-posed gawd question. This election there will be plenty of well-posed questions and very important ones to base one&#8217;s vote upon. As long as the candidate supports the Wall then it&#8217;s fine with me if they blather about the fantastical virtues of the FSM to get the FSM-believer vote.</p>
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		<title>By: karen</title>
		<link>http://atheists.org/blog/2008/02/24/nader_factor_redux/comment-page-1#comment-77659</link>
		<dc:creator>karen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Unknown, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">#comment-77659</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m with you on this Cynic. Nader was, and will again be a spoiler to the benefit of the republicans. Especially if people like Dave throw away their votes on him in an act of frustrated FUism toward the two party system which doesn&#039;t acknowledge us. We&#039;re a long way from being acknowledged, and have to swallow that and look to the more important issues anyway. I don&#039;t want another republican hawk in the White House in these times. </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m with you on this Cynic. Nader was, and will again be a spoiler to the benefit of the republicans. Especially if people like Dave throw away their votes on him in an act of frustrated FUism toward the two party system which doesn&#8217;t acknowledge us. We&#8217;re a long way from being acknowledged, and have to swallow that and look to the more important issues anyway. I don&#8217;t want another republican hawk in the White House in these times.</p>
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