That’s the question posed by the President of American Atheists Ellen Johnson on our web site www.atheists.org. Should we vote for the least undesirable candidate, even though NONE of them have reached out to the secular community — even in the slightest? Or should we not vote at all?I’m not going to chime in here — yet. I’ll let you do it. Click the link, watch the video, and post your comments here.
Really! Like what?
Peter, please. I know we don’t have to tell you what a Straw Man is, because you’ve got it down pat.
Wrong. The people have already spoken and have said that all individuals should have access to the ERs of America. There is absolutely no significant political will to ever remove this huge constraint from the health care “problem”. Most of these folks are in the ER because emergent and very expensive care is needed. Of course they can’t pay for the care and the costs get passed on to you. You are paying for the care of others whether your ideology likes it or not and this will not end.
As for Ellen, she doesn’t quite get that the secular problem is one of organization. Atheists know this all too well.
Sure, secularists account for more as a single group than many of these other groups. But the difference is that wherever a politician goes, he/she can find those other groups all organized and ready to listen. Religious folks in one room. Check. Black religious folks in one room. Double Check.
For politicians, time and money are everything. They’ve got to get the most bang for the buck, and secularists don’t deliver.
It’s not their fault, it’s ours.
Here’s Ellen, trying to get secularists not to vote on an atheists web site. How many non-atheists secularists just heard that message?
Fucking idiot.
I was going to merely dismiss that quote as idiocy and leave it with a return volley of ad hominem. But I won’t.
Libertarians don’t want to end all of the laws, we want to get rid of the idiotic laws that do nothing but cost the taxpayer money. We also believe that the actual crimes (like the ones you enumerated, rape, murder, theft) should be punished and far more severely. If we’re not spending all of this money giving drug users free housing for life (prison) we can use it locking up the serious threats to society for longer. I don’t want murderers, rapists, and thieves on the streets any more than you do. In fact, I want them off the streets for far longer than you do.
If you continue to support anti-drug laws, have fun with it. You are the reason that people that commit real crimes are getting out of prison before their sentences are up. You are the reason that some states actually had to pass laws to require these offenders to serve at least 80% of their sentences. You’re leaving our prisons filled with people whose only crime is against the cells in their own bodies, a choice they can make with or without your laws and upon which your laws have no effect.
The only way to reach a solution is to understand the problem.
What are the most common, most expensive, easiest to aviod, etc. maladies to pass through the ER?
Exactly. And not many atheists heard it, either.
wow great posts diane and McPlasticMan
I have allot of respect for Ellen but I think she should reconsider her position……
Dirty illeagle Mexicans without insurance.
Dawnisis— Thank you for explaining about the sidebars. I was quite taken aback as you can imagine. But I understand now that it’s a google thing.
GodFree&Glad– Thanks for the tip on the book on Hillary! I’ll check it out. There’s also a great link at http://www.nowpacs.org/2008/hillary/issues.html It’s on NOW’s website (Natl Org of Women) that sums up Hillary’s experience and her plans should she be elected. But I will check out that book, (although right now I’m re-reading “Vile Bodies” by Evelyn Waugh because I recently watched Stephen Fry’s film “Bright Young Things” which is based on the novel). Also, as for Hillary, she’s won the biggest states–NY and CA, so I’m not counting her out just yet. Plus Obama has never faced the full strength of the republican assault machine, while Hillary has (big time!) and made it through. So we’re not out yet!
I’m also heartened to see so many here disagreeing with the notion that atheist’s should not vote. We should, and I’m glad so many of us are!
What,
I know whereof I speak. Medicare and Medicaid might well be called Medigraft. Lots of waste and theft. The system is too big for adequate oversight.
Emergency Rooms: Yes, they handle real emergencies, but all across this country they are filled with people using them who should be seeing a family doctor for things that do not qualify as true emergency needs. Why? Because they don’t have insurance and the ER has to treat them, to at least stabilize serious problems.
This is especially true in the border states but a fact all across this country.
Mark my words, there is NO health care solution. We cannot afford a universal health care solution. The cost of health care is going to bring us down if something else doesn’t do it first. It will be painful and seem unjust to many but lines are going to have to be drawn in the sand sooner or later.
A lot of threads on this site end up becoming discussions about health care. Could we maybe have a dedicated thread for that? Just a suggestion, I’m not fussing at anybody.
Sorry Rusty, but I gotta comment. There is actually a solution to health care, and, like everything else in life, it requires EDUCATION. I’m not talking about a college degree either; I’m referring to the need for everybody to self-educate about what makes them sick.
For example, take the person who eats at Micky D’s 5 times a week, has wings on the weekend, and never fails to start the day with bacon and eggs. And then they get chest pains-DUH!
People are eating, smoking, and lounging themselves to death, and they all want a pill to make them healthy, at the expense of everybody else (the pharmaceutical’s dreams have come true).
Until we educate up, everybody’s fucked, and we all pay.
Dave Silverman wrote: Abortion, Stem Cells, and Marriage equality are all PART of the separation of church and state. Yet NONE of the politicians even mention it — or us!
Obama on stem cells research: he’s for it.
http://www.barackobama.com/issues/additional/Obama_FactSheet_Science.pdf
Obama on abortion access: he’s pro-choice.
http://www.barackobama.com/2008/01/22/obama_statement_on_35th_annive.php
Obama on marriage equality: He’s weasely on this one — he supports legal equality for civil unions but not “gay marriage” itself. I wish he did, but it’s better than nothing.
http://pride.barackobama.com/page/content/lgbthome
Obama on church-state separation: it’s vital for the rights of everyone, including nonbelievers. He asserts that the religious have no monopoly on morality, and it’s better for secularists to be open than to show fake piety. He argues that religious values must be acceptable as universal values before they can be expected of a pluralistic society. However, he also panders to religion by saying that faith-based programs might be useful in some contexts and by arguing that public servants need not leave their faith at the door. It’s a mixed bag, but I think it’s a better bag than we’re accustomed to having.
http://www.barackobama.com/pdf/ObamaonFaith.pdf
http://obama.senate.gov/podcast/060628-call_to_renewal_1/index.php
Clinton on stem cell research: she’s for it, and she’s pro-science in general; she claims she’ll end political interference in research.
http://www.hillaryclinton.com/news/release/view/?id=3566
Clinton on abortion: she’s pro-choice.
http://www.hillaryclinton.com/feature/reproductiverights/
Clinton on marriage equality: I can’t find an explicit position on her web site regarding the issue, but lots of gay people seem to think she would be favorable in general on LGBT issues.
Clinton on church-state separation: I couldn’t find an explicit statement on her web site; her supporters clearly believe she will defend separation.
McCain on stem cell research: he appears to be either against it, or inclined to put it under heavy restriction.
http://www.johnmccain.com/informing/issues/95b18512-d5b6-456e-90a2-12028d71df58.htm
McCain on abortion: he would seek to overturn Roe v. Wade.
http://www.johnmccain.com/informing/issues/95b18512-d5b6-456e-90a2-12028d71df58.htm
McCain on marriage equality: if I’m reading this correctly, he would push the issue to the states and resist federal fiats for or against.
http://www.johnmccain.com/Informing/Issues/95b18512-d5b6-456e-90a2-12028d71df58.htm
McCain on church-state separation: I don’t find anything on his site, but the Pew Forum says he asserts that the Constitution founded a “Christian nation.”
http://pewforum.org/religion08/compare.php?Issue=Church_and_State
That last link has some information from all the candidates on church-state separation, but little of it is very detailed for ones left standing.
cry4turtles,
You make some good points, and I agree that some health problems are self-inflicted. Many are not, however. Personally, I have been diagnosed with both thyroid and parathyroid problems in the past few months. The first requires daily medication, the second required surgery. Neither happened because of diet, exercise, or lack thereof. Sometimes stuff just goes wrong. Luckily, we have fairly good health care (with a very high deductible), but lots of people have little or no coverage and just have the bad luck to be struck by disease.
Tarma, thanks for the nod. Did you know that thyroid problems have been linked to MSG, aspartame, and other excitotoxins? Did your doctor tell you this? Look up Dr. Russell Blaylock. He’s a respected neurosurgeon (albeit theistic) who did tons of research in this area. Maybe it will help?
Any vote we do not cast is just going to help McCain. And we all know that Democrats are *far* more reasonable when it comes to equal rights. We *must* vote.
About 75% of all hospitalizations are due to the big three behaviors: (1) Ellicit drug abuse, (2) Smoking and (3) Alcohol consumption.
Changing these behaviors definitely would have a great effect on the expenditures for health care. Good luck trying to control health care costs by diminishing these behaviors through “education” alone. So the “solution” is not coming from that direction is it?
Any vote we do not cast is just going to help McCain. And we all know that Democrats are *far* more reasonable when it comes to equal rights. We *must* vote.
Umh, isn’t that what I said?
Huh? Many of America’s competitors are doing it a significant less cost and with better outcome!
What,
I was on the fence with the “health insurance” thing for a long, long time, but for me it comes down to more than just everyone should be treated.
A friend of mine just took his kid in for a broken arm, not a compound fracture mind you, just a broken arm. The bill $30,000!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Seriously, that procedure is worth 2k tops, and I mean tops. There is a serious problem with healthcare in this country.
What I want is freedom. I want access to all drugs WITHOUT A PERSCRIPTION. I am not an idiot and can handle my own diagnosis in most cases. I want the doctor to present a price list of services so I can shop. I want to draw my own blood and pay a lab to analyze it as I dictate.
Everyone should resort to this system of dangerous health-care as a LAST RESORT. The Internet is a tool to take charge of your own healthcare and find homeopathic therapies and alternatives to this disgusting way medicine is practiced in the western world.
Screw hospitals, screw insurance companies and screw the doctors and their BMWs.
The entire game is changing with stem-cell and genetic research and I guarantee you these treatments WILL NOT be covered.
Medicine treats symptoms but does not cure and that’s the system you want to force on the population.
I am free and I say NO thanks. I can set a bone and do a cast and there is no way I paying these crooks 30,000 friggin dollars to do it for me.
What, I hear ya. It’s sooo damn frustrating. Very few people want to face the facts and take responsibility for their own health. Sad, sad.
Alexatheist…
My, my, the racist…how ’bout “AIDS cures itself”? Or the N-word? Nice one. Idiot.
Racist? no. Concerned about the illeagle invasion from south of the border which is destroying my state and nation, yes. I have no issue with legal immigrants who are skilled and educated; my family being exactly this. The fact is that we can not open our nation’s borders to anyone who wants to come here without destroying our own way of life. Many of the hospitals here in NC are each millions of dollars in debt due to unpaid bills of illeagle and uninsured immigrants. Bed bugs, polio, and tuberculosis are showing up in my state thanks to Third World immigrants. I was unable to place an order at a restaraunt a few days ago because the Mexican working there spoke zero English (this happens to me at least once or twice a week). The NC tax payer supported school system is bursting at the seams becasue there aren’t enough teachers to handle the influx of all of the illeagle Mexican immigrant children who speak very little or no English. I care too much about America and the American way of life to sit back and watch as Third World momentum turns this country into a shithole like Mexico.
As far as AIDS is concerned, I see it as a disease which is transmitted through behaviour so I have little sympathy for those who make stupid decisions and contract the disease as a result of having unprotected sex with multiple partners. Honestly, just how difficult is it to use a condom? My attitude extends to others who make poor persoanl decisions as I have little sympathy for smokers who develop lung cancer or lazy fat fucks who die of heart attacks. Whatever happened to taking personal responsibility for ones actions? It used to be a common American trait before we all became “victims”, even of our own behaviour.
alexatheist,
Why not place the responsibility on the employers that do the hiring?
Dawnisis
That has to be one of the dumbest posts you have ever made. Get a clue.
Alex
You are a diabetic, correct? Type I or II? You, of course, are not obliged to answer.
Tarma
You are smart and motivated. You will do well under treatment. Best wishes to you!
Just a note re a comment that none of the US presidental candidates have reached out to the secular community.
I have a great speach by Obama posted on my blog at this URL:
http://stupid-files.blogspot.com/2008/02/voice-of-reason.html
Barak Obama has absolutely reached out to those of us who have no need of imaginary friends to keep us moral and ethical.
I am Canadian so I have little direct interest in the US election, other than being terribly excited to see a human – not a monkey and it’s trainer – in office south of the 49th.
WriterWriter
Sorry.. new to this format and just realised my comment belongs to another post – down a few from this one… apologies.
writerdd:
Sexist? I think not. She is a bitch. There are many women I would love to have for president, they just are not running. There are many women I have voted for, because they had what it takes. Bush is a dick. Does that even it up for you?
Clinton is the worst choice I have seen in many years and is a disgrace to the women of this country. Working in DC, I know many that personally know her and it is unanimous that unless she wants something from you, you are trash to walk on.
For those who don’t like Obama there’s
OBAMANATION.COM A conservative christian rantfest.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,330738,00.html
So much for listening to the voice of the people…
http://www.boston.com/news/politics/politicalintelligence/2008/02/superdelegates.html
http://www.aim.org/aim-column/obamas-global-tax-proposal-up-for-senate-vote/
Um… yeah … I am voting. As many times as they will let me!
Obama… Hillary… I don’t care which.
What,
Thanks much. I have an excellent family doctor – she is a D.O. – whom I trust and feel comfortable with. Went to a not-so-excellent endocrinologist who absolutely refused to listen to any of my concerns, especially about some medication she prescribed which was causing me problems. She really pissed me off. Dropped her, found another, and was referred to a world-class endocrinology surgeon. All ended well, and I was treated with respect and was completely involved in all the decision-making.
While I had to laugh at dawnisis’s earlier rant against doctors and medication, I can definitely understand her exasperation. One thing I do know – medicine is not an exact science. You absolutely do need to educate yourself and be involved in the process. And the costs, without health insurance, are obscenely high, especially if you are hospitalized.
I am voting for Hillary this primary!!!!!!!!!!!!
Why? Because of the few I like Hillary is the least likely in my view to expect me to consult with CLERGY on some personal decision. Although she is religious and regularly attends church, she does not use this as a reason for superiority. I have listened to and read many of Obama?s speeches and every time I feel as if I am sitting at a sermon. Huckabee is no different. And Mcain is just now starting to court religious fanatics.
I will however VOTE in the November election. This is important even if we do not like the candidates. I am not saying we should vote for any of them if we don?t like them; but if we do not vote, then the parties view that as simply low voter turnout. Instead if I do not like any of the candidates I will write in a name.
I suggest that in November if there is no acceptable candidate for us then we all write in the same name. I know it is not likely that that person will win but what it will do is bring attention to the fact that there is a large voter block that has been ignored.
I have decided that if I like none of the candidates in the November election I am writing in Ralph Nader as my choice. This is to tell the Democratic Party that I want them to represent me also, and it is one person that they hate (Ralph Nader).
Perhaps if we can get a large enough group we can write in Ellen Johnson.
Ah, the “send a message to the Democratic Party” strategy. It backfired on the Naderites in 2000, so why do you think it will work now?
lets go GREEN
but I really think Obama is an atheist
FairyDogMother
No offense, but in your comment
If you do not cast a vote, you have no right to complain about the office holders.
When I was young and naive, i used to believe that too. However, you have freedom of speech and therefore a right to complain. When none of these idiots supports a damn thing you believe in, then you got a real right to complain. When none of these idiots hardly supports anyone, you have a great right to complain. If there is nobody to vote for, then why on earth would we vote for anyone? If you vote for an idiot and he proves to be an idiot, you DONT have a right to complain because you voted for that idiot. You are listening to old fashioned political rhetoric purposely created to get you to vote.
The sad fact is that if we all don’t vote, then the rediculous republicans will get in for four more. The Dems have abandoned us. Screw em all! We should all get together and either vote green or Libertarian and show these parties that we no longer support them.
support the constitution party.the federal gov’t is limited to external affairs and national defense all else is the domain of state gov’t and the people according to the constitution.
Comment from: reason
support the constitution party.the federal gov’t is limited to external affairs and national defense all else is the domain of state gov’t and the people according to the constitution.
AMEN…can I say it again? AMEN.
Reason you are soooo right!!!!
This is EXACTLY why the Sep of Church and State is a MYTH!!!!
This is EXACTLY what the “Treaty of Tripoli” was saying…
IT’S THE STATES RIGHTS STUPID!!!!
Phreedm,
Phreedm, did you forget to read the first amendment this morning?
The Constitution does not give the states the right to deny a separation between church and state.
Reason,
The Constitution Party suffers from clear lack of literacy, why would you vote for them? They want to force their interpretation of the Bible on everyone.
The Constitution Party…?
phreedm is an even bigger fool than I thought…
Phreeky can’t read. He can’t read the first amendment nor any of the law based upon it so he is stuck parroting his myth notion. The church does love illiteracy.
Posterelli, I also said that it is the lesser of 2 evils.
I have a friend who is not registerd and does not vote. Not because she dislikes the candidates but she doent want to bother.
It puzzles me that she complains about the idiot-in-chief as she did not vote against him.
Like the elections, each is entitled to their opinion.
from Diane:
ME TOO!
I dont think that we will have a woman president in my lifetime. I think that when most people get inside the voting booth they will not vote for a woman. I really hope that I am wrong!
What? Mike Gravel contacted the Rational Response Squad about shared goals. If you’re committed to not vote for one of the leaders, vote for him instead.
http://www.rationalresponders.com/Mike_Gravel
Alatham
the constitution party is very vocal about christian worldview but they are bound by the constitution like every other party.no matter who we vote for all of the candidates profess a belief in the supernatural.