After years of planning and discussion FreeThoughtAction is finally in action. As of this morning, our first billboard is up on the New Jersey Turnpike just outside of NYC. (For those in the area who are interested, it?s facing southbound traffic just north of exit 18 near the Meadowlands.) It carries the following simple, positive and provocative message: “Don?t believe in God? You are not alone.” More billboards and other advertising are coming soon. 
KnowledgeIsPower:
The answer is obvious?to be with that son. What parent would want to outlive his/her child? Satan?s ?predation,? like God?s Holy Spirit, must first be invited into one?s heart before they can have any influence on the individual. One of the greatest privileges of being a parent is teaching a child why there is a difference between right and wrong.
True, unconditional love is not self-serving?by definition, it is selfless?it puts the good of the beloved above its own. The experience of love is mutually beneficial for those who love each other. When a relationship is severed, don?t both people who were involved grieve its loss? True love is not a one-sided, selfish endeavor.
I was referring to how my core beliefs and will changed?not my emotions. I had spent years shaping my beliefs on my own and acting according to my own selfish desires. It wasn?t until I understood that it is all by design that I finally allowed God in; He did the changing, not me.
I think bi-polar people experience the same emotions as those who aren?t?only theirs are more intense. But emotions follow the intellect, the convictions of the heart and if you?re not experiencing any new emotions perhaps its because you haven?t allowed yourself to experience any new possibilities of thought.
After taking the night to reflect on that, my answer now is what it was when I first read the question, and that is, after all I know and have experienced, I don?t think anything could completely destroy my faith. I have too many experiential reinforcing memories and times of feeling His presence for any event or thought to negate.
The universal evidence that you, me and everyone else possess regardless of, and in spite of, the state of our mental health?volition.
jcc said:
Here you are dishonestly challenging people to present evidence but you already know a million links and scientific studies wouldn’t change your mind. So why do you keep bringing up “evidence” as though it actually means something to you.
You were never like us, you don’t even understand science. Are we to believe there was a time you appreciated and accepted the milleniums of combined knowledge from experts in their field say on a subject then when you got religion you were granted the omnipotence to judge any scientific study without reading it?
Liar liar YOU are a liar.
Satan must be invited? Is he a friggin vampire? So all of the exorcisms performed by xians and all of the witches they burned were people who “invited” satan in?
Show me the biblical verse to back that up because I know there is NOHING in the bible that says anything like that.
Good grief jcc said this too:
So jcc is saying that because we have the ability to make decisions that PROVES we are immortal after death.
My cat makes decisions all the time as do ALL animals are they immortals too?
Some much for answerng anything intellectually jcc.
I looked up jcc’s claim that satan must be invited in and there isn’t one single bible verse tat says that. This one proves the opposite of what jcc claimed:
Job was a faithful servant of god and never INVITED satan in.
All the bible verses regarding satan are here:
http://www.biblebb.com/files/tniv/SATAN.TXT
jcc you just made that up.
Krystalline Apostate:
Really? Then why do they so often behave like children when they confront someone they disagree with here?
Ya’ ever notice that when we hear a lot from jcc, we don’t hear from preedumb, and vice versa?
I think the only difference between the two are the ellipsis’s.
And, so, I ask again. What is faith?
jcc,
The last time we spoke was when you repeatedly challenged me to show you where you insulted me and I cut about 50 insults you had made on that thread alone. When I did that you never apologised you disappeared for a week instead. You haven’t spoke to me since I answered that chllenge and claim I was now in your non-dusty feet club. But we act like children?
This is YOU jcc:
Now here you are on this thread claiming you wanna debate intellectually and you are just here to understand us?
KnowledgeIsPower:
If what I?ve already said with regard to my faith doesn?t answer your question, then I?m afraid whatever else I have to say about it won?t satisfy you either. Have you ever considered that faith and belief are not the same, practically speaking? Belief is cheap?anyone can say they believe in something; but for faith to be faith, it has to be acted upon.
May I ask, are you seeking something besides atheism to put your faith in?
From websters:
As you can see it is impossible to have faith in atheism.
An atheist doesn’t believe in gods that cannot be faith based it’s based on a lack of any evidence.
It is a FACT that there is no evidence for gods, that requires no faith.
It is a FACT there is no such thing as magic, sanata claus, the tooth fairy, zeus, allah, centaurs, etc. You do not have faith that fire breathing dragons don’t exist because THEY DON’T.
It would however require faith to believe that they do exist.
You say faith is based in evidence.
Then that no evidence can ‘destroy’ your faith.
What is faith? When the thing you have faith in doesn’t match the evidence (consider this a hypothetical scenario), can the evidence convince you that your faith is false?
ha, i was wondering when KA was going to weigh in.
JCC:
I am not trying to tell you anything. I am just reiterating your belief that: you actually think you are immortal.
And, please remind me, what ‘evidence’ is there that the mind could persist without the body? And how do you defend against the obvious Cartesian tangles of such a position?
I would like to add to Zak’s question:
If your “soul” is immortal did it exist before you were born?
If the answer is yes then why can’t anyone remember that time and what would make you think once dead even if your “soul” persisted that you would remember ever being alive?
I ask this because xians claim they will see kids, family and friends in heaven but the only way for that to be possible is for memories to exist separately from the brain, which they don’t.
I guess the whole point of this line of questioning is that xians take a believe in an immortal soul too far by claiming memories (which require a brain) are immortal as well. If you damage the area of your BRAIN where memories are stored you will not REMEMBER anything.
How do you reconcile that you will retain memories after death? (and be able to see, hear etc) All of which require a brain.
So a soul, even if it persisted, would be nothing without a brain. You would have no sense of who or what you were or are.
As usual we are back to arguing about the existence of gawds yet no theist here has given an operational definition of the words “god” and “exist”. So what is it that we are arguing about? Come on JCC, give it a try or admit the question “Do gods exist?” is ill-posed. This is far different than saying the question has no answer or is unanswerable. It is a meaningless question.
what, I’ve only had time to check in from time to time and I never got back to you on this question of whether or not the question do god(s) exist as being a valid question. Your answer is obviously no, it’s not a valid question and the validity of the question is not based on what one thinks the answer to be. I think you gave the example of another question to illustrate this point as “how long would it take to walk off the edge of the earth” (I think, I’m sorry, I’m not remembering it 100%).
For me, this goes to framing of an argument. I think you are framing the argument around answering a question that science has already proved. For instance, when we look at photos from space of a round planet (and with scads of other evidence, but this being the most clear cut), we can see that the question about walking off the edge of Earth isn’t possible because it’s a globe. Taking my understanding of your question of “do gods exist”, I think your point is that no, there is no evidence for god, there is nothing that science has proved about god existing, so in the same way the question do gods exist is an invalid question.
However, that doesn’t fit my frame and is likely why it’s not a highly effective rhetorical device. I think a question that might be closer is “do UFOs exist” or even “does the lock ness monster exist”. Some people think they’ve seen evidence that these entities do, in fact, exist. To them, it’s not an invalid question even though we have no hard proof that they do exist.
My prediction is that if you use this argument with people’s whose frames it does not match, you’ll not get too far. You can use ridicule, but again, that would do much for the recipient, only the audience. I think the question of “do gods exist” is the nature of interaction between theists and atheists. I try to come to the table with a respect for your point of view and listen and appreciate where you’re coming from. If you come to the table with ridicule and without a recognition of another’s frame, then the interactions my be fruitless.
I’m using the word frame from my readings of Lakoff. His books are a good read if you’re interested in that type of thing. To conclude, I think continuing down the path of forcing this question will not do much than other than confuse or stymie conversation.
Typically, my conversations with atheists go something like:
atheist: can you prove there is a god
spanders: no
atheist: do you think you’re being illogical
spanders: yes
atheist: don’t you think you’re a little out of your head
spanders: in more ways than just thinking there’s a god
Spanders,
I don’t think it comes down to atheists demanding proof from theists, from my point of view it comes down to the insanity of xians, muslims, jews, etc all claiming they KNOW something that cannot be known. They EACH claim to be the sole arbiter of truth.
And these people do not stop at just choosing to believe something with no evidence they go on to kill, oppress and try and take over government to enact laws based on that which they don’t have evidence for.
I could care less who believes in witches, fairies or allah but I certainly am not gonna accept something as the truth without some friggin evidence.
It goes from a simple statement of I believe there must have been a higher power to claiming you know exactly who it is and what it wants and you will kill and destroy anything that runs counter to that dogma. Even to claim those who do not share your dogma will be BURNED for eternity.
There are xians actively trying to bring about Armageddon because of their insanity. They set themselves up as enemies of humanity and our very survival.
If the religious would keep their personal beliefs PRIVATE there would not be an issue.
We get mainly xians coming to this blog but there have also been muslims and mormons and each one of them CLAIM we are wrong and they are right. Well FACE FACTS you can’t all be right and IMO every single one of you is as wrong as wrong could be.
Religious people are not content to remain silent with their nonsense and that leads to unspeakable horrors which in and of itself PROVES each religion FALSE.
Boise Jim,
It certainly isn’t simply by chance.
dawnisis,
I agree that things done in the name of religion are insane. What I think you will find is a wide range of beliefs within the christian community and overarching theist communities. A good number of these theists are moderate to liberal, insisting that belief is a personal issue and shouldn’t be mixed into politics. A vocal minority has ascended over the last 30 years and has culminated, in this country at least, in this administration. As you can see even from discussions here on this blog, there is deep disagreement from opinions on politics or understandings of god among theists.
I know I’ve harped on this a bit, but I thought Lakoff’s “Whose Freedom” was very insightful on people’s thought processes. I can also remember talking to a missionary one time and he was talking about how christians were being murdered by muslims in, I think it was Nigeria at the time. This was shortly after I finished reading “The Clash of the Fundamentalisms” (another fascinating book). This book illustrated that sometimes religion is another guise for tribalism. It is not belief in god alone that causes extremely harmful actions. It is a combination of religion, tribalism, needs, history that are wrapped up in identity. On further questioning of this missionary, he revealed that christians and muslims were killing each other and the feuds between these groups went back before they were christians and muslims and has as much to do with tribalism as it did with resources. Of course, that’s not to say some theists aren’t batshit crazy. I think we can say that of any group.
spanders,
You have always answered questions honestly and I really want to know if you believe that you KNOW and BELIEVE xianity is the one true religion and that every other religion is wrong?
Do you believe the bible was written by an omnipotent being?
Do you believe that the messiah will return beam you up and destroy everyone who doesn’t believe what you believe?
Do you believe in hell and satan?
Do you believe in witches sorcerers and magic?
And most important to me do you believe a woman is not equal to a man? This is jesus your messiah:
Do you believe this verse is true?
What are you opinions on verses such as these in your holy books?
So did your god write this or not?
Actually, I don’t believe that christianity is the one true religion and every other religion is wrong. I don’t believe the bible is literally true and I believe that the bible is a result of people writing about their world, in their time, with their bias. Mistranslation, the editing process (see the Nicene Creed… “when jesus became god”) and the bias of men has influenced the bible.
I am christian because I was raised as a christian in north america. If it wasn’t for that, I don’t think I would be a christian. Statistically, I’d likely be what my parents were. I do not believe and do not want to believe in a god that would condemn the majority of her creation simply for being born wrong.
Women are equal to men in rights, mental capacity, leadership skills, etc. I often switch references of god to him or her.
I think the most succinct statement of what I believe comes from the “If” statement from my church:
… we invite you (name deleted as I don’t want to proselytize).
Historically, this is where other theists come and jump up and down on me, but oh well… I like my journey.
spanders,
I appreciate you taking the time to answer and I am more than relieved that you don’t believe woman aren’t equal to men
I especially like that you don’t claim to know the whole truth about god and religion.
JCC…Riddle me this one:
How can you BE without your body? What does it mean to BE apart from your body? And if (you) are (apart) from your body, WHERE the gosh-golly heck are you??? WHAT the gosh-golly heck are you? I can snort cement glue and Holy Spirit Magic Markers and Axe Male Body Spray all day long and still not understand your position.
LOL