After years of planning and discussion FreeThoughtAction is finally in action. As of this morning, our first billboard is up on the New Jersey Turnpike just outside of NYC. (For those in the area who are interested, it?s facing southbound traffic just north of exit 18 near the Meadowlands.) It carries the following simple, positive and provocative message: “Don?t believe in God? You are not alone.” More billboards and other advertising are coming soon. 
Besides, Dawnisis isn’t being *that* derisive. You are, after all, applying a completely unfounded assertion to our knowledge of how the brain works. I would almost call it the ‘soul of the gaps’ more than anything else. It does provide an interesting exercise, though, trying to find a way to falsify your claim.
Wow jcc why reply at all then? Just to act the martyr?
Either present your argument or don’t.
You’re right about me not having an open mind to illogical heaven fantasies because they are not true and I know that because I thought about your hypothesis and it is not just lacking in evidence it totally contradicts xian theology.
If there is a soul it is energy and nothing more. It does not store memories or have the capacity to experience senses without a brain.
You have no evidence because there isn’t any.
Want to end the conversation, fine, you always do when you realize you are wrong and then you always blame me for your actions.
And she has a very open mind. I’d say she’s doing a very good job creating positions you might take on the issue and refuting them. Kinda like a one person game of chess. No reason to be frustrated at all, I think.
I thought I did a pretty good job of not being too terribly cheeky with jcc this time. I merely disagreed and wrote down my thoughts.
I am “snarky” by nature
I love learning and change my mind as I learn. I think you are upset I made a pretty solid case against your hypothesis jcc and I apologize if I offended you while doing it. I don’t want to be in your dusty-feet club again.
jcc,
Remember what jesus thinks about forgiveness
and throw some my way because I am sincerely not wanting to offend you.
I like the topics you bring to the table and I like discussing things with you except that you always run off when we are just getting somewhere.
Come on jcc puleeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeze
cut this heathen some slack
KnowledgeIsPower:
Don?t know?can?t remember any of it. Now if I could only stop being aware of that real, quantifiable time gap in my consciousness?
Me too. My first thought in the recovery room was how hungry I was.
If the ?act? of choosing to have faith is what you?re referring to, then I suppose one can possibly construe it as such?though I?m not sure I understand how a decision qualifies as a physical deed worthy of merit.
If He?s not omniscient, He?s not perfectly just.
Agreed.
I disagree that it?s self-serving if restoration of the relationship is truly desired.
I don?t understand. God chooses to forgive on His own volition and mercy is not injustice.
That situation sounded more like what the criminally twisted guards did to inmates in Auschwitz than what a loving God would purposefully choose to do his own creations.
I fail to see how the refusing is morally superior to the martyrdom.
Again, I fail to see the moral superiority?I simply see it as a free exercise of the will.
Explain to me again how God?s grace is limited?
May I point out that your awareness of, and frustration with, your imperfect mental faculties is itself a manifestation of the distinction of your mind from your brain?
But with an overriding, self-aware, consciousness that is acutely aware of the physical dysfunction resulting from its cerebral impairment.
How can you say I didn’t give your hypothesis thought? I researched and thought about it most of the day.
You are being super unfair.
I probably put more effort into trying to understand your arguments than most jcc.
My conclusions are what my thinking led me to after much research and contemplation and nothing more.
KnowledgeIsPower:
I am? Then can you come up with a plausible and materialist explanation for the placebo effect??or how the symptoms of OCD are managed by the individual??or how phobias are treated with psychoanalysis and not drugs?
dawnisis:
Ok, then demonstrate to me that your open mind can comprehend the disconnect created by the apparent cognitive dissonance that generated these two statements:
and
The power of suggestion on the brain. You can turn a tape on at night and have it tell you to change behavior or learn a language. This doesn’t mean you have a “soul” that will become immortal after death.
Through thinking and self examination can a person change behavior.
jcc,
You make all kinds of insulting statements all the time as well, stop acting like you are above making snide remarks and just get on with the discussion. I apologized and I am doing so again. Which is more than you have ever done after insulting me.
Let it go already.
I don’t remember anything at all. It was more like going to sleep, then waking up, without quite realizing I had fallen asleep in the first place. I mean, without outside verification for the period of time you had been out, how could you possibly know how long you were unconscious?
If restoration of the relationship is the goal, it would be self-serving. I don’t think we’re ever going to agree on that point. Or maybe we will. I really can’t say.
If faith is a requirement, and there are those who do not have faith (for various reasons), then to whom the grace is given is indeed limited.
I’ll bring it up again later when I figure out a more effect way to convey my meaning.
No more or less than the frustration a person would have with the any other physical imperfection. I think Dawnisis did bring up a relevant point. Why should animals be viewed any differently than humans when their brains work in precisely the same way?
All sensory information is received from the body by each hemisphere. If that information is then transfered to the mind, there should be no reason for each hemisphere to be unaware of the other’s information unless each hemisphere’s awareness is inseperable from the brain. If you mean to say that a person’s will is their soul, the ability of each hemisphere to act independently of the other indicates that they each would have seperate wills or minds.
I don’t think I’ve ever tried. If you’d like, I’ll add that to my reading list so we can discuss it later. Its been about four years since I attended a Psycology class.
I would point out here that although jcc never wrote the phrase subconscious or unconscious mind this statement he made seems to indicate that is what he is equating with a soul.
Freud coined this term and it has never been proven to actually exist. It merely means “thinking done without being consciously aware of it”. It is not a separate being or the “real” you. It is used to describe mental states that occur without conscious knowledge.
Freud originally proposed this term to indicate repressed memories, but the logical explanation of repressed memories is that you did think about the unpleasant memories and it was so upsetting/disturbing you commanded yourself to never think on it again. (a conscious act)
The memory you refused to think on again was important for freud to “bring out” and he would use such methods as hypnotism to get you to over-ride your decision not to think about it again. Once he got a patient to think about the memory he could then discuss and reason with them until the memory (and the actual event that caused the memory) stopped affecting you negatively when you thought about it and he would elimate any conditioned negative emotional responses the event caused i.e. guilt, low self-esteem.
Thought commands to the brain are extremely effective such as in the case of commanding yourself never to think about specific memories. This is also why a placebo works because you THINK it is the real medicine. You “tell” your brain through thinking how effective the medicine will be and your brain begins to release or reduce chemicals or for example command the body to up it’s white blood cell count. I actually think thinking itself is usually the best treatment for illness.
This concept of “mind” is not, nor was it intended to be a code-word for soul. It’s just a psychological term.
If the “soul” or “subconscious-mind” was signalling the brain or vice-versa it would be detectable but it’s not. JCC used the example that the “mind” is the one sense data is transmitted to for it to decide emotion but this transmition, via electical impulse, would be detectable by an EEG and we would thereby know the exact location of this “subconscious mind”, but that’s not what happens.
The brain receives waves and translates them, this translation is considered by the frontal lobe or appropriate brain area and then thoughts are created and based upon your conscious thinking emotions are created and chemicals released.
There is no subconscious mind involved in this scenario. It is just you thinking and consciously deciding your reaction.
And as I pointed out animals have emotional responses as well.
This got me thinking about “will” being the possible soul but what is will?
Will seems to be the same as desire. If you think about how you can move your hand or walk without considering every step that might lead one to think there is an unconscious mind controlling these activities, but the reality is that such things are LEARNED through repetition.
A great example is video games, or specifically the video game controller, last year I bought my mommy an xbox 360 and she was very awkward with the controller and she had a real hard time at first, but now because of repetition she no longer has to consider which button to push. Same for learning musical instruments or talking.
So “will or desire” may appear to be mysterious but when you consider the mystery you realize you in fact LEARNED to walk, you learned to talk, you learned to play the guitar. Repetition leads to instantaneous response time.
It is a great function of the brain otherwise it would take 12 hours to take a shower if you had to stop and give specific commands for each little movement.
And of course animals have will/desire as well.
dawnisis
I have a lot of experience in this area. Unfortunately, the mind does not obey the command to “never” think of this again. Continual sensory input eventually overrides that command and forces the mind to revisit, sometimes with terrible consequences. It is true however, that one can work to desensitize and lessen the effects the memories have. It’s a long and arduous process.
If jcc equates the subconscious with the soul, I’d like to know if that’s who he thinks does the (Sleep)dreaming. And if so, why would the soul dream?
http://www.machineslikeus.com/cms/brain-region-central-to-placebo-effect-identified.html
Very interesting.
karen,
You certainly worded it much better than I did. I made my description seem to permanent and easy when people repress memories. You are right the memories still seep out and effect the person which is why they usually need professional help.
I didn’t mean to simplify it so much. Just wanted to point out the reason freud invented the term and that it was never meant to imply “soul”.
knowledge,
Thx for the link. The placebo effects the same area as a promise of money in the brain.
The “reward-expectation” thoughts cause the brain to begin acting out the thinking occurring.
The brain is a marvelous organ and I can certainly understand why it seems so mysterious to some people but thx to EEG the mysteries are being solved.
I am sure animals have the brain area as well because pets sure do like reward-expectation. In fact my kitties try to get their treats every time I go into the kitchen
Bad kitties!
Dreams can be viewed on EEG machines and animals have dreams as well. So the “soul” isn’t responsible.
I recently watched the first 2 series of “Hero” on DVD. It’s about people who discover their super-powers and I spent the entire week having the best dreams of my life because of that show
Video games do the same thing to me if I play for many hours. I end up acting out the game in my dream which is also big fun.
I don’t think my soul, unless it really likes tv and video games is responsible for my dreams. Probably too much sensory information causes the brain to engage in some kind of organizing/discarding activity.
knowledge,
Your link to the study of the placebo effect activating the reward/expectation section of the brain makes me think if you hooked up religious people to an EEG machine the same area of the brain would be activated when their religion was mentioned.
Religion is all about reward/expectation and because they believe this the brain acts on those thoughts just like a placebo.
From the discussions with the religious folk here you can see how their brain refuses to follow their thinking through when it contradicts their god idea.
Not to pick on jcc but he refused to finish this discussion even after I apologized and pointed out he was equally guilty of making rude comments. He needed an excuse to stop because his brain demands that he not go further.
Just a theory I will look around online because I vaguely remember reading a study about religious people hooked up to EEGs to see which sections of the brain contemplates god.
Well the only neuroscience studies I found were on people who meditate and those that claim to have mystical experiences i.e. hearing the voice of god.
I thought the wiki section on cognitive dissonance really explains why religious people experience a type of denial when presented with conflicting ideas:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_dissonance
This seems to be extremely relevant to the behavior of the religious:
Near the bottom “self concept” is mentioned:
The religious people identify themselves, their very lives and future as their religious beliefs. It would make sense that if their “self-concept” is intricately linked with their god idea it would lead their brain to reject all contradicting information without considering it.
For example evolution is perceived by the religious as a personal attack on their self-concept which is why they fall into a total immovable state of denial even though they are aware they lack the necessary scientific knowledge to make such a denial.
dawnisis:
You no doubt did. But you did so with the intent to prove me wrong (apparently at all costs)?not to determine if my argument had any merit?and therein lies the problem I have in trying to have a discussion with you. Your mind has been made up and you refuse to consider my assertions from an objective point of view?you admitted as much with:
Time is short for me again today, but I hope to elaborate more on this shortly.
jcc,
I just don’t even know how to respond to your baseless allegations. I spent time researching and thinking to understand our discussion so that I could add my thoughts. My mind does not revolve around unmovable concepts.
My thinking is fluid and evolving and changes by leaps and bounds every day I am alive. You don’t know me so don’t tell me my motives for my conclusions.
The conclusions I outlined above are the result of my thinking, which you still haven’t addressed. Your continued martyr act and refusal to accept my apology is transparent and sad.
Either make your counter arguments or don’t but I am boring of your tantrums.
If your hypothesis can’t stand up under critical thinking then it wasn’t a well thought out theory to begin with. It’s not like I only found one or two contradictions your entire soul idea is flat out erroneous.
I didn’t even realize until the end you were trying to equate the subconscious mind with a soul, which is ludicrous because it is just a psychological term not a scientific one.
It basically has no meaning in reality. It used to describe thinking done without being aware of it. I addressed that above, but will add most decisions are made in split seconds and are not recorded to memory because it isn’t necessary for your brain to remember them. Other functions are carried out automatically by the nervous system.
There is no mystery or subconscious “mind” freud didn’t have access to EEGs or advanced neuroscience so he coined a term. That’s it.
So your entire soul hypothesis was based on an abstract term never intended to mean “soul”.
Let me just clarify I am not saying there are not things going on “behind the scenes” in our brain i.e. reacting to a hormone secretion etc.
There are lots of things the brain does without our conscious input, if it didn’t we’d have to make crazy decisions like how many heart beats per minute we need to keep our heart rate steady.
But these functions do not add up to the “soul idea” you believe which is becoming a conscious immortal that will have human-like form, a set of memories separate from the brain, and continue after death to have sense experiences without the necessary organs or a brain to translate the signals.
My conclusion is if there is a soul it is pure energy and I also think this energy could be what gives us the capacity for abstract thought during life.
After death however without a brain or physical being this “soul” would cease to be you in any definable way. In fact it may just join other soul energy and do things like supply the energy in nature, but you would be totally unaware of any of that because you would have no brain.
Reincarnation becomes a possibility at that point via the energy entering other living things. I would not claim that without evidence but that is more likely than the heaven scenario which you are trying to hypothesize.
If you found this book intriguing, you will definitely enjoy reading My Stroke of Insight – a Brain Scientist’s Personal Journey” by Jill Bolte Taylor, and her talk on TED dot com about her stroke which is an 18 minute talk you Must Not Miss! (there’s a reason it’s been forwarded friend to friend millions of times!). When you read the book and see the TEDTalk, you’ll understand why this Harvard brain scientist was named Time Magazine 100 Most Influential People. Her unique experience, combined with her perspective as a neuroanatomist, and her sensitivity and awareness (not to mention beautiful writing style!) has produced something so powerful and so revolutionary that I think it’s going to become a transformational movement in itself. Oprah also did four interviews with her (that I was able to download on the Oprah website) that are also worth checking out. I am trying to share Dr Taylor’s story with as many people as I can because I truly believe if everyone saw it the world would be so much better and people would love one another and no longer fight.