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thx1138,
I think that the only disagreement we have is when it is time to resort to ridicule.
From my original comment:
In fact many theists arrive with an air of curiosity, with a real or feigned statement indicating a need to learn how it is that someone could not believe in god. They are usually met with patience, until their Truth reveals itself. It is only then that indulgence turns to sarcasm and ridicule.
I have never ridiculed Spanders, in fact we share the same taste in books. However, there is little point in debating the other two or three frequent fliers, except for entertainment value. Ridicule is the only course when someone believes that the bible is the actual word of an invisible supernatural entity who resides outside time and space yet knows and cares how many hairs are on everyone’s head. People who wilfully ignore evidence of evolution and believe that no matter how good one is, eternal pain is mandated unless one admits to being a sinner and accepts jesus as a personal savior.
dhappleby–
- Secondly, I find it kind of annoying when the posts become chatty personal discussions. Obviously, several bloggers are regulars and have gotten to know each other, but again, asking about people’s personal life is not what this blog is about. I think that when a few people start “talking” back and forth, it makes it seem like a social club that only certain people belong to. I hate feeling left out! (I had enough of that in junior high school – ha ha! I respectfully disagree. I LIKE it when a thread leads us to talk about our personal lives, and helps us get to know other people on this blog.
I like to read and learn about the big philosophical and political ideas on this blog, but I live in the real world, with real people. I like to find out how those of us on this blog get by in our day to day lives.
I’m for letting a thread develop naturally. Let the trolls in (unless they are just completely out-of-control, preachy, hateful, etc.), let people get off topic, in short, let us have free speech!
I second the motion for numbering our responses, so I can remember where I left off!
In all – I LOVE this blog. It’s an oasis of reason.
oops! messed up on my blockquotes! My response to dhappleby starts with the last word of the 5th line in the first paragraph, “I respectfully disagree. . .”
I enjoy this blog because many of the regular commentators offer excellent arguments that I think through and use when confronting fundies here in Jesusland, TX. For me, the NOGODBLOG is a learning community. Every so often someone makes a great book or website recommendation which I desperately need to further my understanding of religious delusion.
Xian trolls are annoying. I think they are better off being redirected to a discussion forum or a syrupy self-help board where they can spew their bewildering godspeak ad nauseum. Why they come to this site is a mystery…much like the Virgin Mary’s one-way birth canal.
I took a quick look to see if I could find plug ins for this blog that answer some of what people are requesting:
blog bookmarking:
http://tech.gameshogun.ws/c37/social_bookmarking_mod_for_b2evolution_1
wysiwyg editing:
fck editor
http://manual.b2evolution.net/FCKeditor_plugin
spell check:
http://b2evo.astonishme.co.uk/index.php?s=spell+check&sentence=AND&submit=GO
Was there anything else? Some of these got mixed reviews about how well they work, but it would be worth a shot. Any programmers willing to install this stuff? I could give it a shot, but this isn’t my strong suit.
bt
Most of us here were raised in xian households and/or surrounded by xians in the USA. So what are these assumptions you are talking about?
What,
Thanks for the response. Here are a couple of comments from this thread:
Carry On commented:
“They seem gleefully content to get a rise out of any and every tiny thing they can pick at, so it’s playing right into their hands when posters respond. You will never convince them. And they love it when you feel annoyed and get lost in making the same points, over and over. It is exactly why they post here”
This is a generalization.
SquirrellGirl commented:
“I do disagree that there are many ‘god fearing’ folks that are intelligent. That is an oxymoron to me. I do think that people can get very, very educated to justify these bizarre beliefs and codes, but how can one be ‘intelligent’ and buy into the mythology? It is so unquestioning.”
No intelligent God-Fearing folks? (I am not one by the way, intelligent that is)
Is it realistic to say that there are no intelligent Christians or Muslims, only Atheists?
As I read blogs, (Christian or Atheist) the tendency is that posts get more and more dogmatic as the discussion evolves. “Piling on”, if you will, for lack of a better phrase. My goal in my post was to say, maybe poorly, that it is good to have dissenting views to keep people from saying more and more outlandish, unfounded comments. Other threads actually have better examples of this but please forgive me if I don’t go chase them down write now.
Christian blogs need this doublecheck also.
and to show my lack of intelligence:
“write” should be “right”
It appears that this site is using:
b2evolution 0.9.1 2005-09-16
The b2evolution.net has a demo that is using the current stable version:
b2evolution 1.10.3 2007-11-01
which includes a comment preview that seems to work well. If the users use Firefox as their browser they will have spell check as they type. The comment preview mode would allow an extra chance to proof read and to check for correct tag usage.
Looks like they might be getting close to a major release. This is the current release candidate:
b2evo 2.3.0 2007-12-28
bt
Those aren’t assumptions. They are observations and generalizations. Xians hypothesize the existence of a gawd but provide no to test of this hypothesis. Then xians go beyond the mere hypothesis and insist the fantasy is fact. But they don’t stop there either. They form costly alliances and devote many resources to maintaining the fantasy. I don’t know what measure you use for intelligence but in my world such behavior ranks you amongst the stupidest of humans. Sorry man.
bt,
I would be interested in your opinion of:
“In God We Trust” on the currency of the United States of America?
“under God” in the Pledge of Allegiance?
The christians asking that political candidates declare their religion?
“Faith based” governmental funding of religious programs?
The infamous “moment of silence” in public schools?
The continued assault on the general population by the christians?
The push by a significant number of christians to act out and bring about the end game of life on Earth?
I don’t care if adult christians want to live a fantasy, however, they make their fantasy my problem when they force it on me.
If your intention is to get me to be nice to the christian, you have some work to do on the other side of the fence.
Rna2dna
Very well put.
rna, what’s your opinion? Do you think it would be worth to switch to a WordPress or Joomla/Drupal solution? Upgrade B2E? Just install plugins?
It doesn’t look like B2E is as good as something like WordPress, but maybe I’m wrong. I’m not sure how hard it would be to switch. I’ve also looked into Moveable Type, but again, I’m not sure. Any thoughts?
rna2dna,
Thanks for the questions. Here are my responses:
“”In God We Trust” on the currency of the United States of America?”
An act of congress in the 1830’s desired that mottos should be placed upon coins. In 1864 it began to show up on coins. It was off and on different coins until the 1950’s when “In God we trust” became our national motto. I am for it. I think we need to live it out or else it is an empty motto. I don’t think our nation really trust God however, most people don’t even notice it.
Psa 33:12 Blessed is the nation whose God is the LORD, the people whom he has chosen as his heritage!
“”under God” in the Pledge of Allegiance?”
It was put there at a time when Congress and the people of this nation wanted to separate ourselves from the Communist Soviet Union. I personally think we are under God whether we like it or not. I believe we should acknowledge Him in every aspect of our lives. So for me, I am for it and even if it wasn’t there I would still be saying it.
“The christians asking that political candidates declare their religion?”
Unnecessary, you can see through candidates and know where they stand, if you can’t you are not looking hard enough.
I am not for this.
“”Faith based” governmental funding of religious programs?”
If these programs are feeding the hungry and helping inner city kids stay out of trouble or helping to fight teen suicide. Why not? Is it a bad thing that the government is supplying funds to organizations that are trying to improve our country? I realize that there is potential for corruption but there is that potential everywhere. Do you throw away the good for the potential of evil?
“The infamous “moment of silence” in public schools?”
I feel that it is victory for atheists, although with the tone of your question it would seem that you think the opposite and it is a way around prayer in schools. A muslim can pray to his god. A Jewish person to his, and an atheist can compose themselves for the day or think about what they are going to do next. You can do what you want and that is freedom. I would rather see prayer back but I am all right with the moment of silence.
“The continued assault on the general population by the christians?”
This is pretty general. I am not trying to avoid the question, but I really don’t know what you are getting at here.
“The push by a significant number of christians to act out and bring about the end game of life on Earth?”"
Again I am not sure here, you may rephrase if you desire, but I will assume you are talking about people like the Kansas group “God Hates Fags”. They are a cult and they are idiots. There is no grace in their tone and no love in their hearts.
I am not a Christian who “wraps his Bible in the American Flag”, but as an American citizen I have the right to speak, to protest and to vote for the values that I believe are important and most honoring to God.
The nation of Israel was constantly punished when they strayed from God’s commands and did “What was right in their own eyes”. My desire is that this country would not be doing the same.
Hope this answers your questions.
what,
you wrote:
“I don’t know what measure you use for intelligence but in my world such behavior ranks you amongst the stupidest of humans. Sorry man.”
I was a non believer in God until the age of 28. I never called myself an atheist so I won’t be disingenious and say that I was one. I did have many of the same thoughts you had. I believed in evolution. I argued with Christians, I couldn’t believe that they were so stupid and could believe a fantasy. I saw their God as an Ogre who punished His children. I ridiculed Christians for their hypocrisy (I still see the hypocrisy but understand it differently)
So What happened to my intelligence? How could I go from being one of the top 10-15% of people in the world who don’t believe in God to a dumb sheep? How do you scientifically explain that? What are your methods? Tests? (I really don’t think I was intelligent before, nor am I now, just stating that for argument sake)
Rom 1:21 For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened.
Rom 1:22 Claiming to be wise, they became fools,
Rom 1:23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man and birds and animals and creeping things.
I Know this verse spoke about me at one time and God has rescued me from that life.
God has revealed Truth to me and has opened my eyes to the lies I used to believe. Faith is not stupidity, it is understanding that there are things beyond our comprehension that only God can reveal to us.
Have a good day and thanks for reading.
bt
Stupid is as stupid does. What makes you think intelligence is static?
This is likely true but filling in the unknown or the unknowable with untestable hypothesis is just fantasy. Fantasy is a beautiful thing until you claim that fantasy to be fact and dedicate precious resources to maintaining the fantasy. Then you are just plain stupid. And as stupid as stupid ever does.
spanders,
(Purged: A bunch of stuff about my view of what priorities should be addressed when selecting software.)
I don’t have enough knowledge of the mentioned software to make any useful recommendations but, I did look (rather quickly) at all the home sites. My mind threw some red flags at the Wordpress site, concerning the possible lack of completeness of the downloadable version, that is, there are some useful features that can only be had by buying the commercial(?) version. Just mentioned as an attempt at full disclosure.
My prior post about newer versions of b2evolution, was just to add a little more information to the pile and to point out that an upgrade and the use of Firefox might address some of the comments that were made. I hope you didn’t think I was trying to detract from your good comments, it seems like you might be somewhat interested in changing some things, I wouldn’t mind helping in that regard if I can and things go in that direction.
)
(Purged: Some stuff about what steps I think could be useful to get to a software recommendation.) Bottom line, Dave’s blog, what does Dave wish for, want, have time for, want volunteers for, are there other blogs that Dave likes the format of (as long as the tolls are happy
I still miss the days of the web before Bill Gates ware, so my opinions would probably be, well, different.
Some of the software you mentioned looks interesting, just don’t know if that is the direction Dave would want to go. Right now it seems pretty simple; make some interesting topic posts, then have the group make mostly off topic comments. We are good to go, no software changes needed
Then you are for, having a lie printed on the currency of the United States. The very most that could honestly be said is; In a God-Idea Some Trust.
[Deleted: Some fucking disgusting preachy shit]
There is no religious test for citizenship in the United States. Putting an offensive verse that is offensive to a significant number of citizens in the Pledge of Allegiance is to undermine the pledge itself.
There are secular organizations and government agencies that can be funded to provide those services to all citizens without threatening citizens with god-ideas. The religious organization can be funded with private taxable contributions.
The christians can pray before class. Some other religions require special circumstances to properly address their god-ideas, if their conditions are not being met, the christian is receiving special treatment. The Atheists can compose themselves and think about what to do next before class, no use for any special time. Some religions may require a plate of pasta be present when addressing their deity, I assume you would have no problem with that?
Among other things the christian feels a need to be singled out specially or they will whine and may cry.
Try again.
You have no right to request special treatment for christianity or religion in a nation that does not have a religious test for citizenship.
[Deleted some more preachy religious shit.]
Such it, Jesus
Yup, your cloak has been removed and it is plain to see, there is a fundie jeesus freak inside!
bt makes the usual mistake in citing the bible. “the bible says” just means that “the bible says. Nothing more.
bt, “God has revealed Truth to me and has opened my eyes to the lies I used to believe. Faith is not stupidity”
So, how did gawd do that? It wasn’t from too much drink or certain mushrooms or some synthetic compounds was it?
As I remember it was psychotic Paul who wrote Romans. Of course he had no first-hand knowledge of jeebus, only at most his own shit.
Faith is stupid, but basing faith on someone as crazy as Paul is beyond stupid.
This is such a typical xian justification for their beliefs. Basically what you are saying is you made some bad choices and screwed your life up, THEN realizing YOU needed to stop being an idiot your ran into a church and they explained to you that you have to make good choices to be happy and PRESTO CHANGE-O your life improved.
This is why religions get most converts from the poor, uneducated, imprisoned, and extremely ill. Just bring them in, tell them how to act right and of course TITHE and give all the credit to a god delusion.
I’m sorry but I don’t need a delusion to explain cause and effect to me like a baby. If you don’t make bad choices nothing bad happens.
Don’t wanna have a heart attack? Don’t eat cheeseburgers. If you eat crap you will die. If you don’t exercise you will die. If you screw people over they will have their revenge and your reputation will suffer, thereby causing the loss of money and respect. If you choose a bad mate you will get a divorce. If you do hard drugs you will spend all your money and lose your job.
This is not rocket science and if you do everything right you will have good effects. This has nothing to do with a god idea and I feel bad you guys were hoodwinked into thinking a magical being is gonna improve your situation when only you can.
Go ahead and give it a test, pray for wings and see if they grow, funny how that god can’t do anything verifiable or miraculous, just the regular crap an atheist can accomplish alone.
Love it!
I met a person over the holidays that had a degree in “Divinity”. A degree in divinity? What kind of intelligence does it take to have a degree in divinity? I agree with RD. These degrees are bogus, and ridicule those of us who had to actually learn something in college (other than fantasy and mythology).
So, to answer bk’s question. I’m sure there are intelligent religious folks, but PLEASE QUIT INSULTING US WITH YOUR RIDICULOUS PRETEND DEGREES!
What would a person with a divinity degree do for a living? I wish one would come here so we could ask questions and at least get some well thought out answers.
Comment from Dawnisis:
Maybe they are part of the CIA (Christ Intelligence Agency)….
This guy was told by god to kill his own kid:
http://www.wral.com/news/local/story/2248036/
That link is crazy!!!!!!!!!!!!!
All I can think is why on earth that woman would have a child with a schizophrenic???
The story said he had been hearing “voices” for 10 years and had treatment. I am no expert but I believe schizophrenia can be passed in genes. She should be on trial too. She is equally responsible for the death of that kid. At least he is actually insane, what is her excuse?
Seriously what the hell is wrong with people?
And the reoccurring religious delusions of murderers and serial killers speaks volumes as to the damage exposing children to an apocalyptic worldview can do to the human psyche.
Dawnisis
You mean they don’t make a white creamy confection that’s fun for the whole family?
I’m not as well read as most here and really like when a new jesusfreak appears due to the reasoned explanations they recieve. I leard a lot. Tune out the trolls. I enjoy this blog very much.
I would second a troll free area. I like arguing with the kids, but I can see how it annoys other people. But on the other hand we shouldn’t let crusaders take over the site. What if there was an easy response to trolls that you could click on. They always come on with the same old sad arguments anyway. If you don’t want to participate you could just click on the earth is not 1000 years old button to show your support.
Yes, correct those typos. That drives me crazy. Spell checking is technology from the 1980’s. What I really can’t understand is how some people always spell things wrong in their comments. My words light up red when I spell them wrong. How can you let that slide when you see it?
rna2dna,
“There are secular organizations and government agencies that can be funded to provide those services to all citizens without threatening citizens with god-ideas. The religious organization can be funded with private taxable contributions.”
This is a good point.
“”The continued assault on the general population by the christians?” [bt claims not to understand the question]“
If you give me examples or situations, I would be glad to comment. It is still vague and you have not added to your previous question.
“”The push by a significant number of christians to act out and bring about the end game of life on Earth?” [bt again claims not to understand the question, this time changes subject]“
Again you have not given me more information. I really don’t know what you mean about the “end game of life on Earth” and what does “acting out mean”.
Also I did not change the subject, I simply attempted to answer the question the best I could with the information provided. If you re read my previous post again hopefully you will see the sincerity with how I attempted to answer that question
“Yup, your cloak has been removed and it is plain to see, there is a fundie jeesus freak inside!”
I have never worn a cloak. On my posts I have always been upfront about who I am and what I believe.
I feel I have answered your questions honestly, I am sorry if you have that much mis-trust of me and of Christians.
dawnisis,
You wrote:
“This is such a typical xian justification for their beliefs. Basically what you are saying is you made some bad choices and screwed your life up, THEN realizing YOU needed to stop being an idiot your ran into a church and they explained to you that you have to make good choices to be happy and PRESTO CHANGE-O your life improved.”
There is much truth to what you say here and this scenerio is probably correct for a great number of Christians, although it is not what a Christian would call salvation. What you have defined here is a salvation from “works”( a lot of what you would call moderate Christians would be in this camp). I believe in a salvation from “faith alone” meaning that nothing I do can save me, it is only the work of God in my life that imputes Christ’s righteousness to me. My desire to change or remove bad decisions from my life is not based on a legalistic formula of “works”, but is based on my love of God because of what he has done for me.
You wrote:
“This has nothing to do with a god idea and I feel bad you guys were hoodwinked into thinking a magical being is gonna improve your situation when only you can.”
Don’t feel bad for us. I still have the responsibility to improve my life and do the right thing, It is only through the Holy Spirit that I am able to change. Sanctification is a co-operative effort with the Holy Spirit and ourselves.
If it is any consolation the Christians that you don’t care for , (and if there are any you like) will have to stand before God to give an account of every idle word they have spoken.
you wrote:
“Go ahead and give it a test, pray for wings and see if they grow, funny how that god can’t do anything verifiable or miraculous, just the regular crap an atheist can accomplish alone.”
This is a problem in the Church today because some would tell you, as they do me that God still works miracles today. I would say that God worked miracles only at certain times during history for specific purposes. (Moses, Elijah, Jesus). We are currently not in a time in history when God is working miracles. (I know that sounds convienent), but it is what I believe, and I think Christians look bad when we talk about miracles all the time. God has given us all the revelation that we need to believe.
you wrote:
“I’m sorry but I don’t need a delusion to explain cause and effect to me like a baby. If you don’t make bad choices nothing bad happens.”
Hereditary diseases, rape, a 4 year old dying from cancer, going to school and a gunman coming in and killing all your friends, being invaded and slaughtered by a neighboring village or country for greed or money. There is an awful lot of evil in the world to make a comment like that.
As I was re-reading I realized It may sound a bit preachy but I am just clarifying what I believe and what Christians believe. I am sure you think I am a nut anyway so it probably doesn’t matter.
Have a great night.
bernarda,
You wrote:
“So, how did gawd do that? It wasn’t from too much drink or certain mushrooms or some synthetic compounds was it?”
Hopefully you will find out someday. Actually I was drinking on the night the God saved me. No drugs though, at least not that night.
What,
You wrote:This is likely true but filling in the unknown or the unknowable with untestable hypothesis is just fantasy. Fantasy is a beautiful thing until you claim that fantasy to be fact and dedicate precious resources to maintaining the fantasy. Then you are just plain stupid. And as stupid as stupid ever does.
“My religion consists of a humble admiration of the illimitable superior spirit who reveals himself in the slight details we are able to perceive with our frail and feeble mind.”
Albert Einstein
A scientist believing in fantasy. The knowledge of God is in all of us.
And for what it’s worth the full quote that bt extracted his/her’s from:
And to further illustrate
It wasn’t fantasy to which Einstein was referring, but rather mystery and wonder.
HeatheNZ,
I may be wrong (that is a loaded statement) but it still seems to me that he attributes mystery and wonder to “a spirit”. I know he didn’t believe in God but he believed in something not nothing.
bt
I could call you an idiot or stupid again but that would not do you justice for now you have corrupted the history and ideas of Einstein and that makes you a bold-faced and pathetic liar. This should put an end to your pathetic attempt to corrupt the man’s history.
But it wont be the end to it, will it? You will move on to a new lie – bigger, brighter, and shinier but still lies. You are an idiot and a pathetic liar.
bt
Yes you are wrong. Again. In neither of the two quotes left by HeatheNZ did the word “believe” or “belief” even appear.
bt,
I believe you are delusional. That isn’t nothing. I believe you are trying to twist everything you can, in any way, to find a place that your god-idea can erect itself. That isn’t nothing. The god-idea you believe in, only exists in your mind, you are your god-idea. Ever wonder why you christians started the concept of a personal god-idea? Its because you were all arguing over who had the correct god-idea, the “fix” was to declare that you each had a “personal” god, which you do, it only exists in your brain.
Your bullshit and religion and stupid christian god-idea is what Atheists don’t believe in. There is a whole Universe of things that Atheists believe in, that isn’t nothing. You should give it a try, reality is much more fun and fascinating than anything you can conjure up in your mind.
What,
I stand corrected. I was wrong.
bt,
Then how come the majority of the people in the world who aren’t xians manage to make changes and adjust behavior without this “holy spirit”.
Unless a person is mentally ill they use their own desire and will to change, if that doesn’t work they need to be medicated and treated.
What you believe is that by magic an invisible being is doing things for you and if that was the case then xians would be happier and healthier than everyone else but they are not because what you believe is a fantasy. Every study on the effectiveness of prayer has shown it makes zero difference.
Evil? Evil gave a kid cancer? I think it is crazy for you not to realize accidents and coincidences. 99% of all bad things are preventable by making the right life choices.
For the last 1% why would accidents and such also affect people with the “holy spirit”? This should be the percentage your god could prevent, but it can’t because it isn’t real.
Miracles NEVER happened EVER, because the laws of physics are the laws. No one has ever been turned into a pillar of salt, no one has ever risen from the dead, and no one has ever been impregnated without an egg and sperm joining.
This is believing in magic, literally.
This bt person is hilarious. LMAO!