http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/12/20/roland.martin/index.html”What would Jesus really do” is the title of the show, hosted by Roland Martin. I’ll be a part of a panel on the subject at 8pm tonight, live, on CNN. One segment, 4-person panel, so I should get one or two sentences in.Feel free to suggest some good sound bytes for me to sneak in during the show!Oh Yeah… HAPPY SOLSTICE! The days are going to get longer now!
Jeez, what is it with religionists and the money? Other peoples’ sex lives and now other people’s finances.
I take it none of the religionists coming here have followed that part about renouncing all worldly wealth, since they can afford computers and Internet connections.
Not that I would judge anybody, lest I be judged in the afterlife as some believe.
Alex…likewise. I’m hoping you stay safe and have a wonderful visit with your family…
Life is way to short…
And the offer stands…we’ve had alot of water go under the bridge…please feel free to contact me and I’ll take you out to dinner…
phreedm@yahoo.com
alexatheist
same to you an everyone else even blair have a safe and happy holiday season.
phreedm
you just asked out a gay man to dinner are you trying to tell us something.
Is that a date phreedum?
I appreciate the offer but I really don’t think it would accomplish anything.
alex an phreedm
no joking now you have some beautiful rural mountain scenery out there.i get a magazine called country and the photos from around america an canada take your breathe away.
Well it’s been about two years since I’ve posted in here last. I have to say when I first came in here I thought all atheist were ignorant people. Turns out I was just an Ignorant 14 years old kid. Now I haven’t had any College biology classes or anything however evolution has been covered in my schooling experience now. So I’m back up for debate, you won’t get anything stupid ignorant young earth BS from me just adding a Theist to a flock of Atheist…Anyone remember me it was around the summer of 06 I came in here first. Anyway since then I’ve been more Agnostic than anything. However more recently leaning toward Theism.
yourxianfriend: Would you say you have had doubts about your religion or all religions? Why have you decided to lean back toward belief again? That can’t be easy, can it?
I would say that Evidence of Evolution on earth says theres no God. However the Universe and where it came from tells me there is a God. Because the Universe did have a start. The two theories are It is one of many universes or God created it. Both theories are religions in the sense that you must have faith for both of them. There is no way science will ever be able to prove there are other universes. So both are based on faith. Ockham’s razor says the simplest soltuion is the best. So a God creating the universe fits. However you look on Earth and evidence for Evolution is everywhere which is where I find myself now. Leaning toward an Old earth creation model. However I would still have to say I’m agnostic.
I appreciate your thinking and your answer. There are some very bright people here and in other atheist literature that have addressed the issue you raise in believing there must be a “creator” of our universe. I hope you keep looking for other answers. An open mind is a good thing. Hopefully, someone will help here, as I am not quite up on the science involved.
I know first hand how comforting belief can be and it has to be a powerful human need that helps when we struggle to cope and/or make sense of the world. Wanting meaning, doesn’t always mean there is any, however. Some things just happen.
I have only been to this blog for a couple weeks and I’m learning too. Welcome back.
Hello [yourchristianfriend], I recommend reading a book called “God’s Debris” by Scott Adams if you get the chance.
http://www.andrewsmcmeel.com/godsdebris/
yourchristianfriend
The question “Is there a gawd?” is meaningless. Start there.
I love it when jesus freaks come here. It must be pretty discouraging for them to see so many different skeptic voices.
As to yourchristianfriend, “However the Universe and where it came from tells me there is a God.”
How does it tell you that?
The basic fallacy of the idea of “gawd” is that it doesn’t explain anything, exactly because it is used to explain everything. It is just an admission of ignorance.
Scientific theories don’t explain everything at once, they explain parts of the picture. The unexplained parts are researched to find more partial explanations.
Someone who says “gawd did it” has given up trying to find out what really happened.
YCF
You might want to think about what it means to “have a start”. A “start” is highly reliant on a common concept of time. Unfortunately this is something we need to be prepared to discard when thinking about the start of the universe. Time is intricately linked with space and as we conceptually regress the universe back toward a singularity time effectively ceases to exist.
What this likely means is that the universe if fact does not have a “start”. At least not a start as we understand the concept.
This summary is an example of the fallacy of bifurcation. There are many hypotheses concerning the “origins” of the universe (not two).
Will we ever know exactly what happened? Well science has a pretty good description back to 10^-43 seconds after the big bang at which point everything basically breaks down.
Your alternative of the “God solution” is particularly useless as it’s equivalent to saying “it’s magic”. It has no explanatory power. It also has the uncomfortable problem of posing the question of where did this God come from? If you allow God to be eternal, then why not allow the universe to be eternal? Special pleading doesn’t tend to fly too well.
Now there’s a question I’ve got to ask my brother. Thank you, Heathen, for putting it so eloquently!
C4T,
The thanks is not due to me (but thanks anyway). It’s merely the result of reading articles like the following:
http://www.thejesusmyth.com/essays/the-first-cause-argument
This pretty much explains in more depth what I was trying to convey.
yourchristianfriend,
Evolution doesn’t address the existence of deities. The fact that evolution happens, puts a very large hole in the christian model (there are many holes in the christian model).
Where did the god thing come from? Are you positive the Universe had a start? Science encourages you to question and research.
The start of the Universe is a tough question because our tools (math, physics, observation, experience) aren’t complete enough (yet?) to produce a completely known and testable answer. That doesn’t really lead to ‘GodDoneIt’, it only leads to a state of not knowing (if you think about it, not knowing what happened around 20 billion years ago doesn’t change much regarding how our solar system was formed and what will happen to it over the next billion years.) The ‘wanting’ to know is good but it really doesn’t change what has happened and will happen on Earth, except that finding out could give us some new and useful math, phsyics, experience and, observational tools.
There are a couple of science based ideas about the early Universe and what it means regarding past and future. There are tens if not hundreds of god ideas (all have in common – no evidence, nothing testable, nothing predictable, nothing that can be relied on). Science is not a religion it is a tool. Science specifically deals with eliminating guessing. Faith is closely related to guessing and generally tries hard to hang on to keeping as much as possible unknown, for the unknown is the only place for a god-idea to hide. Scientists have a good history of being tough on their peers that practice intellectual dishonesty – if they are shown to have falsified evidence they loose all credibility. If theists are shown to have falsified evidence it is fine, if some god-idea is sprinkled on their actions. But the sprinkling of god-idea leads to all manner of twisting and turning, without finding any certainty or honesty.
Careful there! The scientific method has had an incredible record of finding answers. Other universes are not a requirement, only a possibility.
I hope you are getting some sense of how that statement really isn’t accurate. Science has a keen interest in minimizing any guessing and is always open to well researched thoughts and ideas. Religious faith specifically discourages questioning its foundations. Science doesn’t require faith, religion does.
Only if you allow yourself to stop at GodDoneIt.
If you study astronomy you can see how planets, solar systems and, galaxies are formed – not created. Evolution deals with the formation of organic life on Earth but, it also ties in nicely to the formation of elements in the Universe – stuff builds up from simplicity to complexity but even the complexity retains the foundation of simplicity.
Don’t let that stop you from thinking
First of all someone said I’m a Jesus freak which is not true. If you learned to read I said agnostic. Now the universe isn’t eternal. The question where did God come from can’t be asked because time started with the Big Bang. Before that time didn’t exist, therefore it isn’t logical to say what came before God because there was no before. It’s human nature to ask such a question because we live in the realm of time. Outside of time there is no before, and after. Also everything has a cause correct? What is the cause of Big Bang? Science doesn’t know and never will because it isn’t something that is observable or testable. So they can say things caused it however they BELIEVE it was the cause. They do not KNOW. Therefore it’s a religion in the sense that they must believe something. As a reminder I’m agnostic not a “Jesus Freak”
YCF
Excellent – I agree
Think about this in relation to your previous statement. Causality is dependent on time. If time does not exist causality will not exist either. Therefore questioning the cause of the Big Bang is analogous to questioning from whence came God.
You can’t have it both ways and retain a logical argument.
yourchristianfriend
If I remember your previous visits correctly, it is reasonable to term them as coming from a Jesus Freak (not that I would choose that term personally). You claim to now be agnostic. In a very real sense we can all claim to be agnostic as none of us possesses certain knowledge of matters metaphysical. In other words agnosticism does not preclude one from being either a religious zealot, nor a strident anti-theist.
You arguments will tend to determine your position more than your self description. In other words you’re entitled to the benefit of the doubt, and the proof of the pudding will be in the eating.
Very true. I’ll quote someone on this.
“
Atheists believe that all cause and effect in the universe has a naturalistic origin. Observational data lead us to the conclusion that the universe first began to exist 13.7 billion years ago. Since all things that begin to exist must have a cause, this means that the universe has a cause. However, a naturalistic cause for the origin of the universe cannot be confirmed observationally. Therefore, atheists believe the tenet that all phenomena have a naturalistic cause based solely upon faith in naturalism.”
-Rich Deem
I guess it depends on when you believe time began.
Well to Atheist I give my theist arguments. To Theist I give my Atheist arguments. Why argue atheism with an atheist? lol
YCF
Assuming Mr. Deem is correct in his assignment of belief I will point out the error of this argument (in bold). The universe is not in the universe, and therefore is not included in the belief as stated. It’s a very important distinction that invalidates the rest of the argument.
Incidentally atheists simply do not believe in gods. Whether they believe anything else, including Rich Deem’s assertion is irrelevant to the fact that they are atheists.
YCF,
I just did a quick search on Rich Deem. Surprise surprise he’s an xian apologist. You’ll forgive me if I recoil at the idea of trusting him to accurately convey anything about an atheistic position.
I could of told you he was a Christian. However if you check out his website it makes many great points. It makes you realize atheism isn’t based only on logic. It’s probably his website that has kept from becoming an atheist.
yourfreaktianfriend,
bernarda was right you are a jebus freak.
I on the other hand thought you might want to become a thinking person. Please accept my apologies for thinking you were an honest person.
What makes me a Jesus Freak? Because I don’t have a preconceived thought that won’t change that there is no god. I’m am truly the free thinker here because I look at both sides of the argument. Unlike you guys.
YCF
You have a link for this source of great points? I’ll bet a pound to a penny that we’ve seen them all before.
Incidentally, your agnosic sheen is starting to wear thin.
And your martyr complex is starting to bleed through.
HeatheNZ:
Why is that? Correct me if I?m wrong, but if anti-theism is as you say, simply non-belief, and if all humans are ?born atheists? then why couldn?t a Christian ?accurately convey anything about an atheistic position? since non-belief must be a default state of mind and if he was once an atheist himself?
http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/atheiststest.html
Take that and just follow the links from that you realize just how little we humans know about our universe. If you won’t consider it you have a preconceived notion that wouldn’t change no matter what.