OK Here’s the press release
Michigan Atheists cautiously celebrate a victory. The holiday tree erected on Michigan’s Capitol grounds is unnamed. Why is that a big deal, you might ask? In 2006, a bipartisan Michigan Capitol Committee voted unanimously to name the holiday tree that is erected each November in front of Michigan’s’ Capitol “Christmas Tree” and placed a huge sign on the tree to designate that it was, indeed, a Christmas Tree. The sign read, “State of Michigan Christmas Tree.”I took exception to this action which clearly indicated that Michigan government was endorsing Christianity and organized a demonstration on December 13, 2006, at the Lansing Capitol Building in front of the “Christmas Tree.”Joining us in this demonstration was Hal Downs, President of American United for the Separation of Church and State – Michigan and agreed that Michigan lawmakers transformed the tree into a religious symbol. Our demonstration was well covered by various members of the media and attracted much publicity as well as comments, both positive and negative. But, the sign remained in place until the tree was removed in January 2007.Concerned about the future of the tree naming sign and on October 25, 2007, George Shiffer, Michigan Atheists Assistant State Director and I paid a visit to Steve Benkovsky, Director of Legislative Council Facilities Agency, Michigan State Capitol. Mr. Benkovsky assured us that he was instructed to, once again, display the sign proclaiming the tree to be a “Christmas Tree.” George and I, once again, registered our protest to that action adding that this unconstitutional endorsement of Christianity demonstrated disrespect for nonbelievers and believers of various non Christian faiths. The good news is that while a 71 foot tree was erected on the Capitol grounds on November 6th. we note that the tree naming sign is not present.Today, during a phone conversation with Mr. Benkovsky, he stated that he agreed with the fact that all who view the tree should name the tree as they please and he simply did not erect the name sign with no complaints from Michigan lawmakers thus far.However, we must keep a close vigilance on this issue as the Michigan Capitol Committee who may not have noticed the missing name sign but, clearly doesn’t get the message of separation of state and church. ARLENE-MARIE, Michigan State Director, American Atheistsamarie@atheists.org (313)388-0006 Cell: (313)938-5960 michiganatheists.orgPO Box 0025, Allen Park, MI 48101American Atheists is a nationwide movement that defends civil rights for non believers; works for the total separation of church and state and address issues of First Amendment public policy.
And here’s the question: Should we be embracing Christmas as a secular holiday? Should we call the Christmas Tree a CHRISTMAS TREE and celebrate it, very obviously, in a secular way? Would this totally steal the holiday from the Christians? I don’t know. It’s late, and the Ambien is kicking in. Just musing…
qt1one
To say that atheists don’t have any set of beliefs is a contradiction.Really! Show me the contradiction. It’s simply a matter of counting. Zero beliefs. Done.
ah ,karen,hey i feel as if i know you.and just reading blogs without comment considered lurkdom?i never knew.and now i feel a little dirty.but ,no, i had left after my last post,and when i came back,noone had posted,so i thought maybe i had brought the entire works to a screeching halt,lol.i mean ,i finally get the balls to say something,and……….nothing(thanks for the welcome)
Qt1one
Actually most sociologists of religion would disagree with you. In Sociology, religion is not defined as simply a group that has rules or beliefs. If it were then the members of a book club, the police, and libertarians would all qualify as religions. Although there is much debate on the topic, Sociologists generally agree that a religion must include some kind of mystical or supernatural component.
Yes, you are right. Removing religion from our government would be a monumental task. But, couldn’t you apply the same argument to the civil rights movement? Why should a majority who don’t care about equal rights for African Americans have to use the same water fountains as 13 per cent of the population? Our founding fathers worked hard to ensure that minorities would also have rights that wouldn’t be trampled on by the majority. There is a distinction here between belief and behavior. No one is advocating religious people would have to change their personal beliefs. Just like racism, you are free to be as racist as you want. It’s only when you bring that racism to the public sphere that we will restrict it.
Tarma,
GodDoneIt! I want that land used to grow lumber so that the forests don’t get mowed! I’m the decider, that decides it, GodDoneIt. That’s it! End of argument!
Besides if the land was used to grow flowers it would increase the flower supply and reduce the cost. In that way I might be able to afford to send you some. Food for thought
Frivolity sniffolity.
“Should we be embracing Christmas as a secular holiday? Should we call the Christmas Tree a CHRISTMAS TREE and celebrate it, very obviously, in a secular way?”
Just saying the word “Christmas” is sucking up to the christian subhumans. It’s called Santa Claus Day. If you want to waste money on a tree, for goodness sake at least call it a Santa Claus tree.
The first syllable of the word Christmas is Christ. Christ is for christians morons. Any atheist who celebrates his day off on 12/25 and calls it Christmas is not a real atheist. One more time – it’s Santa Claus Day.
The word Christmas is offensive because millions of innocent people have been murdered for Preacher Man Jesus Christ. Christmas is just another word for immorality and stupidity, and any civilized person should not use this word for any reason except to ridicule it.
What if a christian says “merry christmas”? It would be OK to say “take your christmas and shove it up your ass”, but if you want to be nice, you can do it without sucking up to their insane immoral religion. Just reply “Happy Santa Claus Day”. If they give you a hard time about that, just explain you prefer to call it Santa Claus Day because nobody have ever been murdered for Santa.
If there’s one thing I dislike more than christian stupidity, it’s when I make stupid mistakes.
I meant “christian morons”, not “christians morons”.
I meant “because nobody has”, not “because nobody have”.
rna2dna,
Aw, ain’t that sweet
qt1one,
Okay, I’ll bite. This country was founded by freemasons on free mason principles.
In the declaration of independence the wording is “endowed by THEIR creator” not “god” not “jesus” not “lord” not “holy” not “sacred”.
I won’t go into the whole freemason history but england was persecuting the masons there and killing them and that is why the mason here declared independence.
You can purchase freemason books written during the founding of our nation from rare book dealers. And if you read any mason philosophy you will clearly see exact wording lifted and placed into the declaration of independence.
Not to mention all the buildings in d.c. are masonic and the pyramid is on our money and it’s way bigger than “in god we trust” which i am sure was added on to please bible thumping psychos.
Let those, who will, see.
what does it matter if it is called christmas or not? For our lifetime it has been christmas on the 25th of december to jews, christians and atheists alike. Jews dont get all freaked out about the name why shuld we. The power of a word comes from the power you give it.
Christmas is a childs fantasy time, the lights and music, much of which was written by the masters can be enjoyed by any name, from christmas to shit from the store day.
dawnisis –
Interesting and yes, “THEIR creator” not “god”, not “jesus”, not “lord”, not “holy”, not “Sacred”.
As an atheist I do believe in a creator, or rather a ‘creating force’. I just don’t know what it was and I’m 99.9% sure it wasn’t a guy with a white beard sitting on a fluffy cloud who loves me unless he feels like toasting me in hell for eternity.
BobC -
Totally taking christ out of Xmas is a great idea, BUT sorry to tell you, it isn’t ever going to happen. Well, maybe in a trillion years, but not anytime soon.
I will, however, see if I can’t begin to call my tree a Santa Clause tree, which is actually more accurate, and I plan to totally, but totally!, embrace your idea of responding with “And a Happy Santa Clause Day to you,” when I’m wished a Merry Christmas.
And you are right, nobody has ever been killed because of Santa. Many have gone into debt though. Gee, wonder if any of them have ever been suicidal because of that and killed themselves? Could be. Now I don’t know what to do . . .
FYI, Off topic, my apologies….creepy stuff…
“Creation College” in Texas wants to certify public schoolteachers to teach (yikes!) science…Now we all know it’s only fair to teach both sides….
Dallas Morning News:
http://tinyurl.com/2nmrgj
GodFree&Glad,
I can see where that can be an atheistic view. But isn’t it closer to being the view of a deist?
If there were a ‘creating force’ doesn’t that mean some intelligence was around before anything?
Where did the ‘creating force’ come from?
Just wanting to understand if there is any logic involved or is it more of a, ‘there must be’ type of thought.
GF&G
What assumptions are you making to arrive at this conclusion?
rna2dna -
Personally I don’t think any intelligence is required of a crating force. Maybe there’s a better word than ‘force’ but I’m not sure what that would be. I’m definitely not a deist and as for where a creatng force came from, who knows? Who knows where any of this started, or how. I believe we’re all here because of evolution and chance. And I don’t see why this creating force has to be something that moves quickly. I guess if I was going to worship anything it would be TIME.
Oops –
crating = creating
What -
Hope I’m wrong, but xians are so dug in at the moment in this country and my thinking is that if there is anything they’ll hold on to with tenacity it’s Christmas and Easter. I’d like to be wrong, but I don’t think we can take Christ out of Christmas. I like the idea of calling it Santa Clause Day for a lot of reasons, but I’ll be dead and gone before that does much catching on I’m afraid.
Wow, this is the longest thread I’ve seen without any trolls
I’d like to see a deathmatch between Santa and jesus
GF&G
I think we will be rid of theism in the public sphere in our lifetimes.
What -
I’ll keep my fingers crossed.
I think we should change the name to the winter solstice tree.
Alatham,
I don’t think qt1 is too far off the mark in some respects. I think a lot of atheists love to push the talking points that atheism is ‘the absence’ of a god belief, and that through nifty definition and semantics can articulate a pretty good sounding position that they are not a group, that they have science on their side etc. Further, the whole ‘lacking a belief’ or ‘absence of a god belief’ talking point actually smacks of a pretty naive view of cognition. Even I have been guilty of that one. Its not like brains are little turing machines with statements inside them like “I believe in God” and some others don’t and so they are more correct or something.
Also, science has shown us that humans are cognitively hardwired for beliefs. The particular belief doesn’t matter. Ingroup and outgroup psychology has defined our species for eons and played a key role in our evolutionary success. No matter how vehement and vitriolic atheists may sound, there are a lot of ways in which we ‘act’ like a religious group. We may not be explicitly ‘organized’ but naturalists and atheists are certainly ‘self organizing’ to a degree. We are at least coagulating. We are, like it or not, developing a common language and culture as ‘atheists’ Just look at the blog roll to the right. Denying that would just be naive.
As for using such strict definitions, that represents the psyche of a few atheists sure, but the majority of atheists I talk to in person, even many thoughtful ones, just don’t go that far in pinning down or restricting their beliefs. Many many atheists still define their position in opposition to christianity, whether ‘advanced atheists’ such as the majority on this blog, like it or not.
To the topic, qt1′s point and BobC’s point & posterelli2′s suggestion:
Maybe it doesn’t matter if we call it a Christmas tree. Maybe we can disempower that word by appropriating it. Think of it this way: Halloween has a meaning that we now consider like a myth or fable. So what if it used to pick out something religious. You don’t see atheists crying about calling the accouterments ‘Fall Equinox Masks’ How lame does that sound? We celebrate it secularly. likewise, the term Christmas can just pickout that day in which we do some goofy stuff which some cultures USED to believe represented all sorts of myths, fables and ‘religious’ figures. I say USED to, because as a progressive naturalistic group, the secular can move forward and leave older cultural trappings behind them. The word is unimportant. Its two syllables. It is already there. Changing its referent is the way to go.
So what if there was a sign on the Christmas tree that said ‘Christmas tree’? I get the argument that it matters because it is a dominant religion, and that public funding of said sign can be interpreted as a state endorsement, but is it? If the local government put up a haloween sign would we jump on them for promoting paganism? Or is it just a traditional word? How bout valentines day? Should government entirely separate itself from tradition as well as religion?
I love Christmas, even though I’m an atheist. I struggled for years with various ways to observe or counter the season. Now I’m at peace.
It’s great to read everyone’s comments and know there are others out there like me.
On another note, check out http://www.reason4theseasoncontest.org.
It’s a song contest for atheists, where there is a $500 prize for rewriting the words to “Joy to the World” with positive atheist lyrics. Great site. I can’t wait to see what song wins.
D
DkDyer,
Thanks for the contest info. Pretty cool. Not much time, but if I can throw something together, maybe I’ll enter
And yes, isn’t it nice to have this community to share thoughts with?
I am a devout Christian and I celebrate Christmas as a time to enjoy the company of loved ones not as the birthday of Jesus. The Bible gives no date of the birth of Christ all that matters is that he was born,lived,died,and ROSE from the dead and I celebrate that everyday.
qt1 one said that they are a non religous Christian ummm sorry there’s no such thing either you are Christian or not.
keisha,
Says you!
Now let’s see you prove it without using your book of mythology (a bible, that is)
You’re new at this, aren’t you?