DENVER (Dec. 9) – A gunman walked into a training center dormitory for young Christian missionaries early Sunday and opened fire, killing two of the center’s staff members and wounding two others. No arrests had been made by late morning.Police identified the victims as Tiffany Johnson, 26, and Philip Crouse, 23. Youth With a Mission said Johnson was from Minnesota and Crouse was from Alaska. Their hometowns weren’t immediately available.One of the injured men was hospitalized in critical condition and the other was in stable condition, police said. Both are in their 20s.Witnesses told police that the gunman was a 20-year-old white male, wearing a dark jacket and skull cap, who left on foot. He may have glasses or a beard.
I hate when innocents die, even those on the other side. My heartfelt condolences go out to the victims’ families. I hope they catch this guy and lock him away.
I must thank jcc. I have been listening to Woodrow Kroll, Charles Stanley and the other ?Doctors? on the radio machine, and on the TV, in hopes of understanding the workings of a theists brain; how can they believe the disjointed, tortuous and contradictory babble handed down to us from those brilliant scribes of yore. Now, I have seen the light, so to speak.
jccs newly minted arrogance and pride are fabulous. I would rejoice, if it weren?t so sad.
( It may have been Freudian but the use of the word fabulous is interesting. If you are familiar with the etymology of said word you will see that in its original sense it refers to telling fibs, fabulation; from the Latin fabulari ?narrate as fable?.)
(And I will now return to using the apostrophe for the possessive, except ?its? of course).
It took Moses 40 years to lead his peeps on a three day trip through the desert; how long do you suppose it took him to write a book?
Nice one Karen. The three day trip could explain all the circular logic.
Didn’t he live to 120 something, or was it longer? That would give him plenty time to scribble. It’s also really cool how he narrates his own death.
jcc,
Perhaps you should read the “entire” Bible.
Forgot to add that the above is out of context since it is out of the Bible.
But the God jcc da’th command himself to make sense, in the cents sense of the word.
jcc’s real estate agent is all aflutter about God jcc finding his house a buyer. Now if the God jcc could just figure out how to fill out those forms he could make even more “cents” of it.
jcc,
thanks for getting back to me. Yes, I have presented those arguments here before. At least I’m consistent. I apologize, I don’t remember your response exactly. I remember you pointing out problems in the language such as “anti-abortion activist”, but I don’t remember anything that was a more compelling argument to convince that it is a full person at conception with full human rights, including the right not to be aborted. In the biblical argument I do not remember anything beyond you stating that I’m intentionally misinterpreting.
I have, what I feel, are convincing and viable arguments. You too feel that you have convincing and viable arguments, although I don’t remember seeing them. I do remember you insuinating that I’m a nazi. However, it seems that you are willing to put women in prison for the rest of their lives or even put them to death. Remember, if a woman goes through due process and did have an abortion, according to your argument, you would have no problem putting them to death.
That’s some strong stuff. I want people to have the choice. I’m not forcing anyone to have an abortion. If you have a strong opinion, I respect that. However, if you’re willing to put women to death over your strong opinion, you better have a very good argument.
You might retort with me having an opinion that allows women to put preborn babies to death. I presented a strong argument that is in fact not putting babies to death. In addition, I see abortion as unfortunate and not something anyone wants to do. I think the best way to deal with abortion is through affecting demand rather than cutting off supply, which is something you’ve not addressed either.
I think it’s also worth pointing out that our justice system revolves around motive and state of mind.
How can a woman, such as myself, who believes an embryo is not a human, be convicted of murder? The burden of proof is on the prosecution. Wouldn’t they have to prove BEYOND A REASONABLE doubt I, in fact, killed a human? Where is the body? The autopsy report?
Could an infant “sue” a mother for taking seizure meds while pregnant? What about getting radiation?
jcc,
You claim to know “gods will” because you read the bible, yet you lack the ability to explain anything about gods laws or motives.
If you were honest you would see you are looking for YOUR will reflected in the bible and will change alter and lie about anything that doesn’t support YOUR will.
You know your position is that of an xian extremist and that the majority of people including xians disagree with everything you have said, and even in the “anti-choice” crowd very few would agree with your position that all pregnant women who abort or intentionally cause a miscarriage should be put to death.
That leaves those of us reading your posts to realize you are claiming not just to be a devote xian but that you claim to have knowledge beyond that of what any xian would dare claim, and that is to know the mind of god and are willing to kill people to see his will done.
You are the man who burned the witches, the man who led the crusades, the man who imprisoned galileo and burned the great thinkers alive, and yes you are the man that bombs abortion clinics.
In a true moment of honesty jcc let us debate my life and choices as a woman.
Because my hubby and I are extremely responsible and know we are not yet ready to bring a child into this world myself, my hubby, and my doc decided our best choice for birth control would be an IUD.
I made this choice because I want a 100% effective method that does not require me to ingest chemicals, and my hubby prefers not to wear a condom. It’s truely a win-win for us and it is so great to have the piece of mind and I highly reccomend it to other women all the time.
You can research the details of an IUD online to learn more but the relevant detail is that it is an abortive. It doesn’t prevent fertilization, it prevents a fertilized egg from implanting in my uterus.
I have had it for 3 years and it doesn’t need to be replaced for 5 more. During that time I would imagine hundreds of fertilized eggs would be destroyed, but who knows either I, or my hubby could be sterile.
In your Utopian vision of criminally prosecuted abortion and miscarriage, am I a serial killer? My husband? My doctor?
On the day the law goes into effect would I be arrested and tried as one of the biggest female murderers in U.S. history? How would a case be made that I have ever even been pregnant?
Would police escort me to forcibly remove my IUD against my will and on what grounds? That I “might” get pregnant and that I “might” have a miscarriage. Would IUDs be made illegal? On what grounds?
A slippery slope indeed for an IUD to be made illegal on the grounds of what it “might” do under the right circumstances then a case could be made that even woman who are not currently pregnant cannot take any type of medicine or medical treatment because they “might” unknowingly get pregnant during the treatment and it “might” cause a miscarriage.
And you “might” have thought of this if you had the ability to think.
Sorry, I meant “peace” of mind not a “piece” of my mind which is what I am giving you.
I have had 3 different gynecologists since getting the IUD because we have moved twice.
Never have they mentioned anything about the fate of the fertilized egg. The only thing ever discussed is MY health.
In the case of the IUD the docs actually bend over backwards to say what a great, safe, and effective means of birth control it is and that hopefully more and more women will choose it.
In the past they were made from copper or some metal and it caused some women to become sterile after it was removed, but now they use stainless steel and that no longer happens.
If a doctor did mention the fertilized egg as a human and imply I am a murderer I would sue him because he would be trying to influence MY treatment based on HIS religious and moral beliefs.
jcc,
Do your think your ob/gyn buddies, who you claim have never been involved in abortions could legally tell me they could not provide me with necessary medical treatment because of the birth control method I was put on by another doctor?
I think if these doctor “friends” of yours exist they just lie to you because they know how crazy and ignorant you are and that you are so blinded by radical ideology you could never understand all the circumstances and complications of real world medicine and ethics.
I sure hope if they do exist I end up being “not treated” by one so I can get mega-rich from hauling their butts to court.
Wish. Wish. Wish.
Every 6 months I should switch gynos until I find a crazy one.
Cha-ching!!!!!!!!!!!!!
dawnisis
I mentioned the IUD issue to jcc a while back, as I have used that as a very satisfactory method of BC myself.
I’ll be darned if I can remember anything about the conversation though!
And the slope gets even more slippery.
At Richard Carrier’s blogspot, he makes an argument that birth control pills also act as an abortifacient. Those who disagree say there is no clear scientific evidence. A snip from his article
He also notes further on, that pharma companies don’t want studies done to find out exactly how BC works, because the ProLife camp would probably be none too happy with the results.
http://richardcarrier.blogspot.com/
Birth Control and Abortion, Nov. 15, 2007
In case you are wondering on what grounds I would sue:
I would sue them for discrimination on the basis of religion.
It is because I did not share their xian religious beliefs I was denied necessary treatment.
Even a referral would not work. Referrals are used to transfer patients to different fields of medicine that are beyond that doctors specialty, the doctor referring remains your doctor. You don’t refer people to get rid of them as your patient.
karen,
The only way for outlawing abortion (including the “forced” miscarriages of most birth control methods) to be meaningfully effective would be for women to be consistently monitored for pregnancy and all birth control would have to be outlawed, because as you point out most even with traditional birth control pills the fertilized egg is destroyed, which is why after sex you can take 2-3 birth controls pills to prevent pregnancy.
jcc, of course doesn’t know any of this because he is a man and why would a man learn ANYTHING about birth control and how it works.
Then of course comes the REAL problem, which is women going to canada, mexico, or europe for birth control and abortions. Would women no longer be allowed to travel?
How many years would a woman serve for being caught with illegal birth control?
karen:
Hmmm. Still not surprised by that…
Actually, the first admonishment in Leviticus doesn?t specify by which means?it just says ?don?t? sacrifice them.
Actually, with regard to how long it took for God to give Moses the Law, it seems pretty clear. The first revelation of the Ten Commandments seems to take place over only a few days (Ex. 19:18-25, 20:1-21, 24:12) and then again, after Moses breaks the first set of tablets, over a period of forty days: Ex. 24:18. And as for Moses being able to ?remember all that data,? he didn?t have to. God Himself inscribed both sets of tablets with the Law: Ex. 24:12 and Ex. 34:1.
I hope the verses I just cited can help clear up your timing issues there.
And you may be right. After reading the entire Old Testament, one thing becomes abundantly clear: the Israelites were not a consistently obedient people to God.
Are you saying you could cross the Sinai peninsula in 3 days?
Don?t know, a couple of years maybe?
Well, I suppose that all depends on which historical source you?re willing to lend credence to.
According to the Bible, he (Moses) wasn?t really lost. He knew he was in the wilderness and was to keep them there until every one of the generation who rebelled against God had died (Numbers 14:34-35).
Note, it was God who killed the Egyptians, not the Israelites.
In a nutshell.
spanders:
You?re welcome.
I didn?t respond point-by-point to your two lengthy theses because I simply don?t have the time. After this coming week, if you?d like, and I have some down-time, I?ll see what I can do. Would you want me to post it in this thread?
Actually, I believe I alluded to something along the lines of punishment for such a thing being up to the individual states.
And I want people to make the right choices.
I believe I do. And considering the circumstances of Scott Peterson in California and now of Manishkumar Patel in Wisconsin (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/22032450/) it seems more and more communities are now willing to extend legal rights to preborn children.
Merely because you?ve convinced yourself that they somehow aren?t babies.
I beg your pardon, but I did address that point. Here again is what I said:
And you didn?t answer my question of who were you referring to when you said:
jcc,
Why even bother posting a reply?
You didn’t even try to present YOUR viewpoint, instead you give a few cryptic one sentence answers, but only to questions that in no way explain all of your lies and contradictions.
I was thinking about you last night and I realized that soon there will be no one left alive who remembers “the good old days” when women did nothing but serve men.
Modern women fight in armies, modern women go to college and have careers, and modern women LOVE sex, and modern men….. LOVE IT!!!!!!!!
jcc says:
I see jcc is trying to make a case that moses, in fact, wrote the old testament.
I was curious about this the other day and researched it, something jcc, whose religion it actually is never seems to do, and most theologians concur that moses DID NOT WRITE the old testament. It is based on songs passed down ORALLY and eventually transcribed by the church.
Also, no tablets exist or ever have. There are lots of pesky “FACTS” that show jcc is no biblical expert.
JCC, you need to take some classes and learn your own religion before claiming to be an expert.
jcc,
What form of contraception do you and your husband use? Do you only have sex when you want to get a new baby? How do you feel when one of your eggs is lost during your menstruation cycle? Do you think it is because your god-idea didn’t want you to get pregnant? Is it because your husband wasn’t able to produce sperm with enough strength to attach to your egg? Do you believe that you can get pregnant without male sperm?
I am not being rude but am trying to understand your views as a christian women.
Hi JCC,
I don’t think you need to go through and do a point by point response. I looked for your original, but couldn’t find it. It might be quicker to see if you can find it.
Ultimately I think it will come down to me defining personhood at birth and physical independence and you saying personhood starts at conception. You will look at my evidence and show how it’s not absolutely certain and will come down to if we’re not sure, we should be defining life at conception. Correct me if I’m wrong here.
You say you want people to make the right choice. However, by making abortion illegal, defining it as murder and severely punishing those who have abortions, you don’t want people to make the right choice, you want to force people to do what you think is the right choice.
Your response to affecting demand seems to be through strict moral code. People having sex outside of marriage is somehow a failure of parents not teaching their children the right moral path. I don’t think sex should be wrapped so tightly to morality and should be addressed for what it is… part of what we do as the human animal. We should frankly present the pros and cons and help people understand both the emotional and physical fallout if decisions about sex are not made wisely.
If I had a daughter who was curious about sex, I would tell her that it can be great, but it can also have severe implications with her emotions and body and is something that can have long lasting effects. I would make sure she knew about contraceptives and std’s. I would try to make sure there was an open line of communication and if it was something she did decide to do, she wouldn’t somehow be ruined for life or a sinner. And if she got pregnant, I would certainly not condemn her or tell her if she’s going to play, she’s going to pay. That treats pregnancy as a punishment and I don’t think that’s right.
We obviously have two very different world views. I respect if you want to make your own choices in your home. However, it seems that you don’t want to allow others to make their own choices. It seems that if you had your way, abortion would be illegal and women would be charged with first degree murder. I’d prefer if we could agree that lowering the number of abortions is a shared goal. I don’t think you recognize that I think potential people have tremendous value and is not something that should be treated lightly. I’m hoping to illustrate that by following your logic through, it would be a scenario where you force people into following your opinion. From my position, I’m allowing people to make their own choices.
jcc
I know god etched the 10 Cs for Moses on the tablets. I was referring to the myriad of other intricate laws that followed. Moses would’ve needed a Mac truck to carry all the stone tablets those laws would have filled down the mountain. And I’m pretty sure henry Ford hadn’t started his assembly line yet, so there wasn’t anything even remotely resembling a Mac truck.
And who can blame them? He’s so inconsistent himself. One minute, he’s all lovey dovey and full of promises, and the next, it’s “Off with your head!” I mean, he’s so whiney. Complaining to Moses because the people are murmuring about him. Well, duh. How patient does he expect finite human beings to be with the answered prayers thing? *Delivers* them from slavery, only to wander around in the sand with nothing to eat, and no end of it in sight, just more promises? Uh, god, if you’re all powerful, how about conjuring up an oasis, and drop some meat and fruit from the sky? This manna crap is not very substantial for desert travel. We need protein and water, man.
Maybe the reference I was remembering was 30 days, not 3. The distance across is roughly 416 miles, and that’s the total width of the whole peninsula. Certainly it wouldn’t take 40 years.
Hey, I was giving a hefty benefit of doubt here. Most references say there’s no evidence that the trip ever took place at all. (references that aren’t xian based, that is.)
Neat plan that all those murmerers died within 40 years, what with folks living to be 300 years old and such back then. But why wait 40 years to kill them off. That’s just making their children suffer- the one’s god was rewarding, he also makes suffer. But there I go, questioning his awesomeness again.
I know. That’s what I said. And if god tells anyone to kill anybody else, including babies, well, that’s okay too. Cos god said so. And we know that people who hear god talking to them must be right.
dawnisis
I don’t think jcc is contending that Moses wrote the Old Testament. Just the Pentateuch. Moses is usually given credit for them, though there is some discrepancy over Deuteronomy.
rna2dna
jcc is a guy.
dawnisis:
As I said in my post to you last Friday after lunch, as long as you continue to try to argue irrationally and emotionally and make unfounded accusations about me (as the quotes of yours above amply illustrate), then any further attempt by me to engage you in any kind of discussion where either one of us has any hope of getting the other to acknowledge the validity of the other?s point of view is virtually hopeless.
If you genuinely wish to participate in a dialog rather than a monologue with me here, then may I suggest you learn from karen and ask questions that you?re actually interested in hearing what the answers are, and more importantly, why those answers are given?
spanders:
I honestly don?t remember if I did respond in detail. Like I said, I?ll be taking some time off after next week and can do it then.
Well, sorta. I was going to make a counterpoint to that but realized that it really would be better if I were to wait and just do a detailed, point-by-point counter to your two arguments.
No, please stop trying to distort what I said. I don?t want to ?force? people to do anything, but I also think people should be held responsible for their actions. And I really do want people to make the right choices?choices that result from their full understanding of what their responsibilities become when their bodies have reached the point where their actions will have a direct impact on the life of another person.
No, it?s from educating responsibilities.
No, everyone who chooses to have extramarital sex does so on their on volition?which may seem to reflect poorly on the parents (especially if they did not inform their child of his/her responsibilities)?but it cannot be seen as the parent?s failure because it is a choice made by the individual, not the parents.
So, in essence, are you saying we humans are no more ?evolved? than animals which, apparently, cannot control themselves when it comes to having sex?
But would you also try to instill in her any sense of reverence for a new life that she has the ability to affect?or would you simply ignore that part and reinforce in her that if her actions resulted in her carrying a new life but lacks the will to live up the responsibility she now has as that child?s mother, that it?s perfectly fine to destroy that life simply for her own convenience, and with no compunction whatsoever?
Are you saying I think pregnancy is a ?punishment? for having extramarital sex? It?s a new life, a new human being?which is an intrinsically beautiful experience?not the wrath of God.
Actually, it?s anyone who willfully kills a preborn child simply for their own convenience?and it?s not just me wanting to have that as ?my way??did you not read the article about Manishkumar Patel in Wisconsin?
And I don?t think you recognize what a self contradictory statement that is much less how utterly illogical it is to assert that a living being is only a ?potential? person. That?s very reminiscent of you saying that having kids is totally selfish then, in the next breath, saying how having them consumes all of your time and resources?two totally contradictory statements.
And I?m hoping to illustrate that by following your logic though, you?d be force to conclude that considering a preborn child as being only a ?potential? person is simply absurd.
Hey Flanders, what right do you have to stamp “Property of the State” on a woman’s uterus? Because that’s what you’re doing.
karen:
I don?t think so. On reading Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy, Moses receives instructions from God on many occasions?so I don?t think he had to remember everything without writing it down as he got it from God (on parchment or papyrus?not stone tablets).
I really didn?t see any inconsistencies in God?s behavior?He established the terms of the covenants, and if they complied, all went well. It was only when they didn?t, was it ?off with their heads!?
Well, given that He?d just visited 10 supernatural plagues on the Egyptians, held Pharaoh?s army at bay with a column of fire, opened the Red Sea for them to cross, provided manna, quail, and water for them while in the desert, and indicated His presence was with Moses while giving him instructions by a dense cloud surrounding the tabernacle?I guess if I were Him, I?d get a little peeved at ?em too?I mean, what else do they need to believe He?s God?
He did all that. Did you miss the part where He told Moses to strike the rock to get water out of it??or the part where he sent them quail because they were whining about not having meat?
No, they?re good questions. I really think you ought to try reading it (well the Pentateuch, at least) all the way through (again?). It answered a lot of questions I had that were similar to the ones you?re asking.
Well, unless you?ve felt His presence, (and I?m not talking about any of your mortal dissociative personalities), then I?d say you really can?t plausibly say with certainty that that cannot be true
Jcc
So when Moses fled the Egyptians, he had the presence of mind to take with him scrolls of parchment and quills and ink, in the off-chance that he might be writing a book?
So much for freewill.
All of which can be explained in natural terms.
How about *delivering * them somewhere besides out of the frying pan and into the fire? If they’d known ahead of time it would take 40 years, maybe they’d have been more patient and understanding, But they were expecting a miraculous, quick delivery, not a meandering, death-ridden one. For an omniscient being, god does not understand the minds of his people very well. Nor does he show much empathy for the imperfectness of their reasoning, which he gave them.
Sorry. Forgot about that. It has been a very long time since i read the whole thing. Still, a rock does not an oasis make.
What, my dissociative personalities don’t count? Technically, they’re still me. Oh well. moot point, since none of them has felt his presence either.
But I would counter with you can’t say with certainty that it is true that it is god talking -to you or any other person who thinks s/he hears it. Or that it is the god of the bible. It is only what you want to believe it is.
and from your comments to spanders
As much as you keep saying god can destroy what he created, it still remains that this is the example he set for his people to follow in the bible-wanton, willful, and selfish taking of life. As a role model, he says to do as I say, not as I do. So do actions speak louder than words?
jcc,
My respect is given on an intellectual basis, and for you to demand mine, is, pathetic. I will answer any way I see fit to make my point and you may choose not to answer, because in case you haven’t read your posts you don’t offer ANYTHING in way of education or explanation.
I would LOVE to have a theologian to answers my biblical questions, and I have many to ask and much I wish to learn, but you, my non-friend don’t offer information, you offer your opinion and you lie, twist and ignore to justify your thoughts.
If I had to describe you in one word it would be dishonest. I will not treat you as my intellectual equal because you aren’t and you won’t get my respect because you are insane.
karen, i applaud your ability to remain calm with jcc, but I have not had the “pleasure” in my lifetime of ever speaking to such a radical xian. I did not think they even existed. I am sure over time I will desensitize to implications I am a mass murderer and be able to deal with extremists as elegantly as you.
karen:
I thought you were trying to make the case that Moses wouldn?t be able to remember all the minute details of the Law that God dictated to him, which is quite different from him not being able to recount his own journey and personal experiences with the Israelites later in his life.
How does that nullify free will? Doesn?t the same principle apply to us and our set of laws?
Turning the entire Nile to blood can be explained naturally?
karen, they were made to wander after they got impatient with Moses for only being gone 40 days?when they made the golden calf. Who knows how long it would have taken them to get to the promised land had they not rebelled so soon after leaving Egypt?
I disagree. You?re a parent; how did you discipline your kids when they rebelled??did you give them what they wanted, or were there consequences to their disobedience?
Apparently, it did, since it seemed to be able to supply the needs of all 12 tribes (which, according to Numbers, was close to a million, if I recall).
Ok, I?ll give you that, but I?ll also counter that with: it would seem to be the most probable (if not, at least, plausible) explanation if what was discerned matched with what was prayed about.
Even when you get an answer that is contrary to what you wanted or expected??like not getting a single looker to your house that you put up for sale?
I disagree. Please point out an instance in the Bible where God does take life wantonly, willfully, selfishly, and without cause (and please don?t say Job?because we both know that it was Satan who killed his family, not God).
I disagree again. God always establishes what the consequences will be for disobedience before invoking them.
Yes!
Hey karen,
I?m curious. You don?t have to answer this, and if you don?t I?ll understand why. But given how long you and I have been conversing together here (and the fact that we continue to do so), do you consider me to be basically honest in what I say, or do you believe that I intentionally try to deceive those who I talk with?including yourself?
jcc,
Why don’t you take a poll of what people think of you if you care so much?
I don’t doubt that YOU don’t know you are lying and twisting things because you are delusional.
For example:
Satan? Satan murders people? I have researched this “satan” character and there isn’t much info in the bible about “him”, yet here you are stating an opinion as fact and then claiming karen knows satan killed job too?
What you say is weird, unclear and bizarre. You state things as fact:
From an xian site. Yet, there you are one post above claiming you know satan is real while xian theologians disagree with that assessment, so why would you claim to know a truth you do not?
DISHONEST.
And of course let us follow logic now, ignoring the fact that there is no evidence the xian god exists, let us for the sake of argument say he does.
God created satan. God created “hell”. God created this testing facility called earth and god gave humans the ability to do “evil”.
God allowed satan to kill job’s family.
God is either all powerful or he isn’t.
Therefore, god killed job’s family, by using his creation satan.
But as I pointed out theologians dispute that satan even exists.
That’s how stupid this argument is.
Imagine these tales as fish stories; the fish gets bigger with every telling. All these plagues were very much like natural occurrences except perhaps 3 days of darkness. Wait, column of fire?…Volcano?…darkness?…ash?
There have been a number of red algae appearances that “turned the water to blood” during this century.
What is very strange though, is the killing of the first born and the hardening of Pharaoh’s heart by gawd, just when he is being asked to let the people go.
Oh crap, wait, I haven’t read the entire buybull in the last month so all that I say is out of context.
Some of you may know of this It’s been around for some time:
http://www.abarnett.demon.co.uk/atheism/fundy.html
It’s How To Think Like a Fundy. The only part missing is the ellipsis.
Obeah,
I was gonna address the river of blood being algae because I researched this as well.
Why didn’t you research it before posting jcc? Could it be that if you do your own research then you would find out you aren’t right, therefore YOU CHOOSE to just make crazy claims and hope no one calls you on it?
DISHONEST.
jcc
I was. So I’ll amend my statement to …on the off-chance that he would have to write down a googleplex of laws, including intricate and insane I disagree. Please point out an instance in the Bible where God does take life wantonly, willfully, selfishly, and without cause (and please don?t say Job?because we both know that it was Satan who killed his family, not God).
instructions for how to properly slaughter, display and BBQ meat offerings.
blockquote>How does that nullify free will? Doesn?t the same principle apply to us and our set of laws?
You keep saying we get to choose to accept him or not, and that Hell is just being separated from him. Well, the Israelite got disgusted with his performance and rejected him and went back to their idol worship. Instead of just letting them be separate from him, he has to “punish” them right then instead of having their comeuppance come at their deaths. Such a two year old having a tantrum, over not getting what he wanted. For complaining, one gets burned to death?
When you hold the power of life and death over someone and say, “Choose me or I’ll kill you,” there’s not really much free will involved.
And when god made the covenant, the bible says Moses gathered with the elders of the people and they agreed to the terms. (Although it says all of the people spoke with one voice, it never says anything about the elders taking the terms of the covenant to the people. And god doesn’t tell the people what will happen if they break the covenant until the already agreed to it. Pretty sneaky!)
As for our set of laws, at least they’re man made and not set in stone, and we presumed innocence and legal representation, and the punishment for ALL of them isn’t death!
Pfiesteria could have caused the first Plague. Blood leaking from dying fish and red pigment released by some strains of the algae could have turned the Nile red.
http://www.adam.com.au/bstett/BTenPlaguesEgypt78.htm
And just how soon WAS that?
And who knows if they’d have made the covenat in the first place if they’d been given full disclosure?
Well, I never KILLED any of them for it. Never even came close. Very rarely even spanked.
Musta been a lot more people praying for Jacksonville than Pittsburgh this weekend then. Didn’t have anything to do with the Steeler’s defense sucking.
There, you’re just falling back on his “mysterious ways” option. Everything -and nothing- is an answer to you. You just put a spin on it to make it look like something is happening and you have to interpret the findings to see something good about it.
OK the flood. Why’d he have to kill all the animals? What did they do? And the plants? Surely they were innocent enough?
So, do are you going to stone your son if he talks back to you?
If a crazed serial killer kidnaps a woman and gives her an intricate list of rules and rituals to perform and explains to her she will be tortured and killed, is the serial killer giving the woman free will to live as she chooses?
The serial killer, as he skins her child alive in front of her, explains patiently it was her choice to see this done to her child. Obviously all she had to do was worship him and beg forgiveness every time she eats or sleeps.
This is the xian god in a nutshell.
There is no free will here, only death, but unlike the serial killer the xian gods claims the power to still be able to punish you after death.
As one thinks on the serial killer/god comparison one would realize that ANYTIME harm or death is threatened to impose ones will on another freedom (free will) no longer exists.
This is the exact definition of slavery. One cannot claim that because the slaves could have chosen death, but instead chose to live, they chose to be slaves of their own free will.
NO, it is because of the threat of violence and harm they are no longer free (have free will).
A fascist government is not considered free because of it’s violence and oppression. You xians make a case that because god is “right” threats, force and mass killings are justified to implement his will. Only if there is no free will at all could this argument be plausible.
It is dishonest to make a claim that if this xian god story was true that followers are not slaves, for it is only by threats of violence and mass killings did this god ever gain followers.
So go ahead and worship that sadistic freak but stop insinuating it’s a choice.
Now I am going to pretend I am an xian and that I just realized what “god” has done is stolen our free will by threatening us with everlasting pain and forcing us to murder each other to see his “will” done.
I would then ponder this satan, this lucifer, and I would ponder why he fought this god and I might come to the conclusion he fought for true freedom.
Why did god want adam and eve to just sit and be his cute pets without knowledge of themselves and their minds?
That might lead me to conclude that this “lucifer” did indeed give us knowledge and freedom when our “god” insisted we should have everything except knowledge.
So what is evil? Why is the biblical referece to the tree god punished all of mankind over a tree of knowledge?
In order to be an xian the first thing that has to go is your ability to think and reason. And then you steal your children’s free will as well. A slave begats more slaves.
Only an atheist can know freedom.
BTW, I just want to clarify I don’t believe any kind of satan is real either BUT what I do believe is the truth always seeps in and the “hidden truth” of the bible is what I tried to say above, i.e. a belief in god is a sacrifice of knowledge and the only way to have knowledge is to eat the apple, always hard to define such abstracts.
If satan were real surely he would have had his little demons teach me some spells or at least say “howdy”.
And if this god idea were real surely he would have punished me in some way, yet I don’t even know anyone who has ever been sick or died.
So why do I get such luxuries with no benefactor? Why should I think anyone other than me does anything?
My family is healthy because they work at it and therefore I benefit from their actions. No god or devil has ever interceded in my world.
If anyone dies or gets sick they have done something to hurt their body or they have started to rotfrom age.
No mysteries, no secrets. It’s just cause and effect.
karen:
My apologies?I was referring to human life.
Oh karen. Given that the Bible tells the history of the Israelites warts and all and doesn?t try to make excuses for their shortcomings, don?t you think that if there was dissention in the ranks it would?ve been recorded?
Well, given that they?d already seen what God could do to their enemies, I don?t think it took a bunch of rocket scientists to figure out that crossing God after you?d agreed to be part of his people would necessarily be a good thing for one?s health.
Again, no one held a gun to each person?s head to make them join the covenant.
Have you ever put your house up for sale; left it on the market for over 4 months; had it priced at market value; and not had a single looker?not offer, but looker?
Don?t know?maybe because He’d given us dominion over them?
Oh boy.
There have been times?.
[Have you ever put your house up for sale; left it on the market for over 4 months; had it priced at market value; and not had a single looker?not offer, but looker?]
The real-estate market in Georgia is in a pathetic state of affairs (I blame the creditors and the idiots who use credit cards), so I’m sure that statement applies to most everybody in Georgia who’s looking to sell (incidently, I’m not looking to sell my house, so I’m not all that effected; if, however, you’re looking for a new place, Georgia’s definitely the place to be). So, yes, I can easily see something good about an ailing real-estate market.
KnowledgeIsPower:
My attempt took place during the height of the seller’s boom in ‘05 (interest rates < 5%). Sorry, seems your analogy breaks down again.
Apparently, every other house in your area was a much better deal than the one you offered. Why are we even discussing real-estate anyway?
KnowledgeIsPower:
Um, not really.
It’s a very long story.
Yes. I just don’t think from what I read that they were given the opportunity to dissent. I think the elders acted as their representatives and made the decision for them.
Well, these folks weren’t exactly rocket scientists, were they? They thought praying to a golden calf would get them what they wanted.
You were the one who said he always spelled out what would happen if they did obey.
Speculate for a minute. Suppose Shecky Silverstein said he didn’t want to go along with the covenant. What do you think would have happened to him?
We sold one house, when we built our new house. Can’t remember how long the old one was on the market, or how many people looked at it. We were already out of the old house and the realtor took care of it all.
Interestingly, the folks that bought our old house have now built their own new house on the street behind us. But I have been watching the real estate market here, looking for a smaller home to buy, and I have seen several that have been on the market for over a year. Did nobody even look at your house online? Or wasn’t it listed that way?
OK. God slaughter lots of people to make way for his chosen people, the Israelites. He never offers to make a covenant with those other people. Like, he never meets Pharoah on the mountain top and impresses him with magic tricks. Instead he sends Moses as a messenger.
karen:
You?re certainly free to hold that opinion?despite the lack of supporting evidence for it in the Bible.
No, they weren?t. That was the point I was trying to make.
Well, like you being of the opinion that the elders made the decision for the people, I?m of the opinion that by then, they were probably pretty savvy to what they were getting themselves into (despite their otherwise being pretty dense).
My guess is it would?ve been ?Well, ok. Shalom Shecky. Watch out for the asps and scorpions. Catch ya on the flip-flop.?
Yes, it was online, and there were a few hits?but browsing it on the web and taking a firsthand tour are horses of different colors in the Real Estate biz.
Hey, I?ve never pretended to know why God chooses to reveal Himself in the ways He does. All I know is that there seems to be a pattern: first to a man (Abraham), then to a family (Isaac & Jacob) then to a nation (the 12 tribes) then to the world (Christ).
With the housing market as depressed as it is, you should be able to find something pretty reasonable.
dawnisis:
I believe you must be referring to the ?tree of knowledge of good and evil??not ?knowledge? in general. That may seem like a trivial detail to you, but the distinction does play a significant roll in understanding all the aspects of the Fall. Again, may I suggest you take the time and effort to familiarize yourself a little more with the details of the Bible before you continue with your erroneous diatribes here?
I see that this thread has degenerated into talk of how many fairies can one fit on the tip of a needle. Why discuss the Buybull at all? It’s like discussing the Harry Potter series – a lot of fun until someone insists your behavior should reflect the fantasy within.