DENVER (Dec. 9) – A gunman walked into a training center dormitory for young Christian missionaries early Sunday and opened fire, killing two of the center’s staff members and wounding two others. No arrests had been made by late morning.Police identified the victims as Tiffany Johnson, 26, and Philip Crouse, 23. Youth With a Mission said Johnson was from Minnesota and Crouse was from Alaska. Their hometowns weren’t immediately available.One of the injured men was hospitalized in critical condition and the other was in stable condition, police said. Both are in their 20s.Witnesses told police that the gunman was a 20-year-old white male, wearing a dark jacket and skull cap, who left on foot. He may have glasses or a beard.
I hate when innocents die, even those on the other side. My heartfelt condolences go out to the victims’ families. I hope they catch this guy and lock him away.
What if I worked at a fertility clinic and accidentally dropped a dish of 100 fertilized eggs. Should I get the death penalty?
Dawnisis
THXX-X-XTTT! Wrong answer! You would not rush in to save anyone unless a righteous MAN told you what to do! Silly female. Stay in your place!
karen,
I need that dvd about getting the witch out of me. I keep forgetting my helplessness.
Thx for reminding me.
You know it’s hard not to feel powerful and smart, obviously something I need to work on.
I’ll ask my husband to start beating me if I seem to “man-like”.
I can only hope turning my life and will over to the lord and my hubby will really empty any feelings of self worth they might make me consider my own needs.
Another hypothetical:
Healthy baby born grows up and becomes a serial killer, you as the mother catch him eating his latest victim and you have a gun, he is approaching you to take the gun. Do you:
a) shoot yourself
b) shoot him
c) let him take the gun and kill you
Relevence: The serial killer is mentally disabled isn’t it the mothers duty to god to let him live regardless of society’s burden?
dawnisis
Depends. Is he eating the missionary who kills children in Nigeria? Or the Muslim father who killed his daughter over a scarf?
Seriously though,
I would use the gun as a means to protect myself in escaping long enough to turn my son in to the police. But then, I am not a god-fearing, obedient woman.
dawnisis,
No. You wouldn’t even be full either. For shame.
You mean your husband isn’t currently beating you? What’s wrong with him?
roe v wade doesn’t force any woman to abort and states may prohibit abortion in 2 an 3 trimester.since most abortion occurs in first trimester on women who belong to house of worship.the clergy should put more focus on getting men to step up and support the women they impregnate.it takes two to tango and men need to start acting with honor again.if your not going to use condom and your not willing to marry her keep it in your pants.
Spanders
Are you a father? I am. I planned. I saved. I got a world class education. I carefully choose my wonderful wife (I’m am so happy she choose me). I carefully sought out stable and supportive families from which to learn effective parenting skills. All with the intent of someday raising two healthy, smart and strong children. Raising children is a huge responsibility and is done so very poorly by most people.
What:
No. Tumors aren?t human beings.
No. The fetus is moribund anyway.
So, what?s your point?
I would? I don?t recall ever saying that I?m against therapeutic abortion in the case of ectopic pregnancies.
Au contraire!
Nope. For the record, (and I believe I can speak for practically everyone in the pro-life camp) I have no objection to therapeutic abortion in cases of ectopic pregnancies. The issue is criminalizing elective abortion of viable preborn children for no other reason than for the convenience of the mother?not ?forcing? a mother to continue with a pregnancy that will result in her own death.
jcc,
Such a dishonest little radical you are:
Define “elective”.
Define “convenience of the mother”.
Who defines this? Churches? You? Why can’t you realize women and doctors already make these decisions and do not need your advise?
What if it just results in shortening the mother life expectency by 20 years? Convinence? Elective?
What if the mother will suffer brain damage by not taking her seizure meds? Convinence? Elective?
In all seriousness, if you answer nothing else please answer this, after all that is why you said you were here:
If a fetus is aborted does it:
a) go to heaven
b) go to hell
c) get to be placed into another fetus in order to have a life experience
If I left an option off that you think better describes the fetusus’ fate, please add it on.
Explain how you have come to your omnipotent conclusion and have such certainty within you, you have no problem hurting/killing women?
This is what it comes down to, you don’t know. You won’t admit you don’t know. But you think sex should have consequences for females i.e. females deserve punishment. Why? Why? Why?
Why wouldn’t your god just understand, forgive and place the soul into a different body? Why would you choose to believe your god is a monster?
dawnisis:
No. I was saying that there have been plenty of women who had complications during their pregnancies but their own death or that of their baby?s wasn?t eminent, yet they chose to put the well being of their baby?s life above their own and continue on with the pregnancy despite the danger to themselves?i.e. personifying the definition of unconditional love.
Yes.
First, sacred does have a secular meaning: ?devoted exclusively to one service or use (as of a person or purpose).? Second, no I?m not advocating martyrdom for women who otherwise would not be able to survive a pregnancy. And since when does sacrificing one?s own life for the good of another human being qualify as ?suicide??
Actually, the topic of this thread was ?Missionaries Massacred,? then you latched on to my use of ?abortion clinic? and took it from there?I don?t recall any agreement to limit the subject to ?medically necessary abortions.?
Ok: ?an abortion performed for reasons other than to save the life of the mother.?
I?m afraid I don?t understand the question. Refusing lifesaving treatment would mean no abortion was done.
I don?t recall making that kind of exclusive declaration. My apologies if I unintentionally implied that, but as I said, I was operating under the assumption that you understood that I was referring to elective abortion as a form of birth control or to rid a mother of a baby that isn?t suitable to her.
Have you ever heard of a doctor referring a patient to another doctor?
I do not intentionally lie?despite its enormous power, communication via the English language is still a fragile endeavor between two or more people. As for me being thrown in jail for disagreeing with your opinion, God help us all if you ever got your way with that!
Again, please cite WHERE I ?EXCUSED ?HEALTH? CLINIC BOMBERS?
Why? On what grounds? By chance, would you have a moral objection to it?
There you go feeling and not thinking again.
Ahh, so all the good Christopher Reeve was able to do from his wheelchair, while on a ventilator, before he died wasn?t the work of a ?really? live person?
Oh dear. By chance, did you actually think about what you said there before you posted it, or were you on ?emotional autopilot? again?
Yes, if that person isn?t brain-dead.
Yes, if that person isn?t brain-dead.
Tell that to Nick Vujicic:
http://lifewithoutlimbs.org/
I bet he?s glad his mom didn?t abort him when she found out he was just a ?gross, armless, legless blob.?
dawnisis:
Given your quick response to my last post, you clearly wish to carry on this conversation?as do I. However, my time to do so is somewhat limited during the day which makes trying to keep up with all your queries very difficult. I will try to answer all your questions as time permits. So, if you?re genuinely interested in answers to the questions you?ve directed to me here, may I beg your indulgence to give me a little extra time to answer the ones I haven?t gotten to before you post more?
Thanks.
jcc,
I love it when a man is losing an argument to a female then resorts to calling her “emotional”:
There you go feeling and not thinking again.
did you actually think about what you said there before you posted it, or were you on ?emotional autopilot? again?
In case your head is so far up your ass you are no longer aware of reality, you are on an ATHEIST blog, arguing martyrdom of females for your god, whether through death or sacrificing health or quality of life, if you remove your god from the equation there is no way to justify your own FEELINGS or make your arguments.
Furthermore your are making these arguments to a female ATHEIST and I see your male dominating “i know better than you” attitude hostile and threatening and I will not respond like an unemotional robot NOR SHOULD I. Stop telling me how to behave, you are not my daddy and I don’t need your advice. I’ve read your posts in the past and you are in NO WAY intellectually superior to me, so shove it.
To bring up Christopher Reeves, a man who had an ACCIDENT as an adult, to try and demonstrate how much one can accomplish when disabled only proves what the WEALTHY can accomplish with the best experimental treatment, specially made wheel chairs, staffs of people working round the clock to wipe your butt and provide physical therapy.
For every story like that there are thousands of people in the same situation who don’t get squat because they WEREN’T RICH MOVIE STARS.
Of course he accomplished more than anyone else, he had more than anyone else.
Do you believe taxpayer money should go to provide that level of care for EVERY disabled person????
dawnisis
i think the abortion debate is more about sex outside marriage then about saving babies.if it was about saving babies the believers should have been adopting left and right.
It’s certainly a combination of misogyny (see spanders posts) and the fantasy that by pleasing their god they will receive death bonuses.
I don’t doubt jcc truly believes women should behave as he interprets gods will and that by obeying him not only will the women get a reward but because jcc has forced gods will upon them he too will get a reward for every baby forced out of the womb.
And it is clear from the xian religion as a whole that they don’t believe females have the capability of knowing gods will, that’s why they can’t be priests and used to have to wear that napkin thing on their heads during church.
I imagine jcc as an old white man. I can’t imagine him my age. I think he doesn’t “live” much and looks forward more to the death rewards than the life rewards.
To you jcc I can only feel sad. I don’t know what could make a person turn into stone and flippantly declare who lives and dies, who suffers and for what reasons, claiming to know the mysterious workings of a man god.
You almost seem a bleeding heart liberal when you proclaim to champion the rights of the unborn and disabled but you know in reality you don’t care about them.
If you did care not only would you be in favor of universal health care and much bigger s.s. payments for the disabled, but you would also have told me the story of the disabled child you adopted and how much he has accomplished.
You would never give a dime of your tax dollars to help anyone, you would as soon spit on the handicapped than actually help them in any meaningful way.
Sorry I got mad earlier, I am back to pity now.
dawnisis:
My apologies. Could you then explain to me how:
qualifies as an unemotional statement? And could you please point out where I wrote anything here that could in any way be construed as condoning the bombing of abortion clinics? I?ve asked you twice now, but you continue to ignore my request.
Precisely! Because morality descends from God.
Then how do you expect to make any intellectual head way in this exchange? It seems to me that your admittedly emotional (rather than intellectual) responses to my direct answers to your questions indicates that you feel that you are losing the argument?hence your irrational outbursts (such as calling me a ?terrorist?).
You know virtually nothing about me personally yet you?ve profiled me in your imagination based on unsubstantiated and bigoted stereotypes. You have no idea how much, and to which charities I contribute, yet you sound quite certain that I
Another amazing example of you responding emotionally rather than rationally. Had you given it a little more thought, you?d have realized that my tax dollars, once the government confiscates them from me, are out of my control as to where there spent. The government decides that, not me. On the other hand, I, like you, am quite free to contribute as much as I want to any charity I want?which, by the way, I do. I give one tenth of my gross income to charity?charities that include helping the infirm and disabled. What about you?
Would you answer just one question? Did you visit Nick Vujicic?s web site?
jcc,
You don’t have the right to demand of me unemotional statements. I am a female and my hormones make me more prone to emotional responses. You are basically saying “Respond like a man” or I can’t be considered “intelligent”. I don’t know if that works on your wife but it sure ain’t woking on me.
I don’t know what conversation you are reading but you have yet to make any argument other than you know gods will regarding women. The only way you could win this argument is to prove god exists and then prove how the hell you know anything about his will and punishment system.
I alreay answered the terrorist support question, let me cut and paste for you:
Taxpayer money funded through government programs is the only way possible to help the disabled. If you think the disabled can be totally supported through charity then how come that hasn’t already happened.
Right now charities would merely have to pick up the slack that s.s. doesn’t provide, yet it can’t, but you think all social security and “welfare” should be eliminated. You have no idea what suffering that would heap upon the disabled, nevermind, I know you do and you don’t care.
You said you were gonna answer my question regarding your omnipotent knowledge of exactly what happens to embryo souls and why they have to be born at all costs, so let’s hear it.
As for my “charity” I am a heathen doomed to hell right? I don’t go around with a bleeding heart screaming save all the embryos so I don’t know why my charital giving has any relevence at all.
But if you must know I donate to women’s non-profits and animal protection groups. Different ones, it all depends.
My husband has his own charities which I certainly can’t take credit for so I won’t mention.
JCC
Sorry man but the issue IS whether the state should be allowed to force a women to carry a pregnancy to term or death (mother’s or fetus’).
Folks
We are an atheist nation. Everyone of us was born an atheist. Say it loud. Say it proud.
dawnisis:
No, but in order for this conversation to serve any purpose, it helps tremendously for those participating in it to make rational statements?and so far your emotions seem to be preventing you from doing so.
I understand that, but that doesn?t mean that indulging those emotions makes for a productive conversation.
No, I?m basically saying, ?respond rationally, and reasonably?without letting your emotions sidetrack you by getting you caught up with what you feel, rather than think, about an issue. Making crazy accusations and unsubstantiated assumptions about me out of anger is completely counterproductive to the discussion.
I know God?s will regarding human life: ?Thou shall not kill.?
And the only way you could win it would be to prove conclusively that a human being?s life does not begin at conception.
The proof of my knowledge of His will lies in the fact that I?ve read the Bible?which is the recorded testimony of those whom God has revealed Himself to over time.
But that?s simply your twisted opinion and not a citation of a quote of mine that indicates that I condone such bombings. How you fabricated the assumption that I somehow condone the bombing of abortion clinics just by my using the word ?abortion??and not from a recitation of my own words that explicitly show my approval of such a thing escapes all reason and logic. But, here, for the record, I believe anyone who murders for a political/social cause is a criminal.
Again, I?m not trying to sound mean or derogatory, but you clearly have a lot to learn about how the real world works.
The reality is that private charities do a far superior job of helping the disabled than the bureaucratic mess that comes with what the government provides.
Oh, boy. There you go again. Please provide the post of mine where I said such a thing.
You know this, how??from firsthand experience with me? What led you to that conclusion about me??your emotions, or your ability to reason?
Ok. I?ll make a deal with you. I?ll answer that question after you provide evidence that you?ve seen Nick Vujicic?s website. Deal?
Only if that?s your choice.
?Where your treasure is, so will your heart be also.?
No help for the indigent, disabled and poor?of both sexes?
Radical xians… constantly wishing the state had more power to control our private lives. Just like Jesus commanded.
What:
No one?s advocating outlawing therapeutic abortion to save the life of the mother. I don?t know how much clearer I can be on that point?and that nullifies your point.
Could you please explain how an infant can comprehend, let alone adhere to, such a philosophical belief system?
Rusty Shackleford:
Could you elaborate a little more on that assertion??especially about which commandment of Christ?s you?re talking about?
jcc,
Can you please explain how Atheism is a belief system?
There is no philosophy in Atheism. It’s just bullshit rejection to a higher degree. Since a baby can’t understand the bullshit, the baby cannot be called a Theist and is therefore an Atheist. Remember that the A- prefix means “non.”
How many times has this been explained to you?
alatham:
According to Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary:
atheism: the doctrine that there is no deity.
and
doctrine: a: something that is taught. b: a principle or position or the body of principles in a branch of knowledge or system of belief.
And the philosophy of Existentialism is the heart and (ahem) soul of atheism. It is the intellectual foundation upon which the ?belief? in the nonexistence of a deity rests because Existentialism, by definition, is existence without a deity. And since there is no way of conclusively proving that God does not exist, then for one to claim to be an atheist also requires one to have faith that the philosophy of Existentialism is true.
Enough to prove that atheists who define themselves that way are not being intellectually honest with themselves.
Comment from jcc
Oh… can I play??
theism:belief in the existence of a god or gods
belief:a state or habit of mind in which trust or confidence is placed in some person or thing.
Therefore, theisism is just a habit. I guess that is why nuns wear them.
jcc
Yet another classic example of disingenuous theistic misrepresentation.
http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/atheism
Why would anyone trust a thing you say when you can even be honest enough to post the whole definition?
You do your religion a disservice by failing to be fair, honest and reasonable.
Is it any wonder that few people here treat your posts with any respect?
Flanders
Guess the sarcasm went over your head.