ELLEN JOHNSON ON FOX NEWS (TUESDAY,11/27) HANNITY & COLMES TO DISCUSSUTAH CHRISTIAN CROSS CASEELLEN JOHNSON, President of American Atheists, will be the guest tomorrow night — Tuesday, November 27, 2007) to discuss the Utah Christian cross case. A federal judge has ruled that 12-foot high Latin crosses erected on public property are not religious icons, but instead symbols of death and thus honor the memory of fallen Utah state troopers who died in the line of duty. American Atheists has announced that it will appeal the decision, and has called for construction of an appropriate secular memorial. For background, visit http://www.sltrib.com/news/ci_7521651 Ms. Johnson will be interviewed at approximately 9:30 PM, but check local listings. For more information, visit http://www.foxnews.com/hannityandcolmes/WHO & WHAT: Ellen Johnson, President of American Atheists interview on Utah Christian cross case appeal. WHEN: Tuesday, November 27, 2007 at approximately 9:30 PM, check local listings.WHERE: FoxNews, Hannity & Colmes (AMERICAN ATHEISTS is a nationwide movement that defends civil rights for Atheists, Freethinkers and other nonbelievers; works for the total separation of church and state; and addresses issues of First Amendment public policy.)
ok everybody liten.
i apologize if i have offended, belittled, or angered you when i said that the atheists ive talked to were hurt by christians. but all i said was that those were the ones i talked to, which i will admit were few, but for the ones i had talked to and who were willing to get deep with me, that was true. apparently this is not the case for any of you, so it should not be a problem. but please dont be so easy to take offense (ESPECIALLY WHEN NONE IS INTENDED) when you are so quick to trash me and my belief system.
and i do believe this blog has gone from reasonal conversation, to enraged shouting matches, and frankly i believe its childish. we can discuss ideas and philosiphies and thoughts and present evidence like adults. we dont have to belittle because we disagree. im just sayin…
but i want to say this again, hopefully in a more clear way. (please just work with me. for the sake of this argument lets just assume that there is a god, even if you dont believe there is one, thats not what this argument is about)God, the god of the bible, is a relational god. its part of his character. and hes perfect. and he wanted relationship so bad, that he created us to be in relationship with him. but in order for that relationship to mean anything, for it to be real, he had to create a way for us to hurt him. he had to make us able to choose something besides him, so that we would not be puppets on a string or robots, just reciting his praises back to him. but he also put a heavy price on this…death.
but like i said earlier, he is perfect. and his standard is perfection. so when man chose something besides god for the first time, we no longer met his standard of perfection. this meant that we could no longer be in relationship with him.
but he hated the idea of that relationship being broken. but at the same time, he is a just god. so, he had to carry out what he had promised. there had to be death to pay for our wrong doings. but he loved us so much, that he wanted to sacrifice himself so that we could be free from that standard and go back to relationship with him.
and we see this through the person of Jesus Christ. in a nutshell, christ came to earth and waa fully god and fully man. he basically drew a circle around himself and said that everyone outside of that circle was broken. but it didnt have to stay that way. you could marry him, become one with him and you could take on his perfection. and you can matter because he matters. and its a gift by grace through faith.
so thats the gospel as i believe it.
and yes first cause.
look around at the universe and all that it involves and entails. all of this had to some from something. im not even saying that the something has to be god (even tho i do believe it is) but im just saying that logically, everything that we see had to come from somewhere. so if you believe it was matter or whatever, there had to be something first.
but then we know that every thing that has a beginning has a cause. and the universe has a begining, so it has to have a cause. so there is an infinite regress of causes unless there is something without a cause. that would mean that it had to have no beginning. so there had to be somehthing that never began that set all of existence into motion.
it had to COME* from something. my bad folks.
notofmyself
Have you ever had your IQ measured? What do you do for a living? How old are you?
I’m done with you and your ridiculous assumptions. Next.
notofmyself,
WE GET IT! We understand all about it, you don’t need to repeat it, we have heard it over and over and over again.
You may not be able to comprehend this but, you are being offensive, if you actually cared and took the time to think you should be able to realize that. Why do christians think they are the ones that are allowed to offend and the only ones that are allowed to object when they are offended?
Regarding your, um, (insert whatever you prefer to call it here). Just because you can type it out or say it and believe it, that doesn’t mean it is correct.
What is your intension? Are you sure you wouldn’t feel better explaining your position on the blog of the christian?
Are you here because you would like us to help you unravel the ideas that have been planted in your mind, do you need help getting out of your religious situation?
Are you here because you think you have a message for us?
Are you here because you want to come to our rescue and convert us?
Are you here because you want us to applaud your statement of belief?
Some other reason?
notofmyself,
You should see a psychiatrist ? that is some wacky stuff. It’s an awful attempt at rationalizing the irrational.
Your above post is so far into the realm of insanity, I won’t bother posting responses to it.
A person who believes such a convoluted fantasy can likely not be reasoned with regarding that fantasy.
notofmyself,
Sorry, but you come across as extremely uneducated, gullible, and greatly lacking in reasoning ability. There is no way to have a reasonable discussion about the nonsense you are spouting. I suggest you go get some schooling, learn how to compose a coherent argument for your thoughts, and above all try to think for yourself. If you have even attended high school, I would be amazed (and depressed).
And good luck with that imaginary friend of yours
notofmyself,
I’m sorry you’ve raised the ire of the rest of the posters. I’ll run through your post real quick and point out the logical flaws:
OK, so we have this perfect God who wants a relationship with his subjects. I hear that a lot and there are always two very big problems with this belief.
1) First, you have to define ‘God’. No two people have the same idea about who or what God is. Even if two people get their god-idea from the same book, there are always internal inconsistencies or individual preferences that cause one person’s idea to be different from another person’s. So the very idea of this God you believe in is quite vague.
For instance, when you say you’re a Christian, that doesn’t really mean anything except that you believe Jesus Christ is your savior. There are any number of other aspects of your religious belief that are not universally accepted by all of Christianity. Why do you think there are thousands of different Christian denominations, all with different ideas about the way their God relates to humanity?
2) Second, define ‘perfect.’ The kind of perfection that people often give to their god-idea almost never makes any sense. For instance, do you agree with every decision that your God has made? If not, how can God be perfect?
Note that if you answer this by saying that God’s motives cannot be questioned or God’s plan is mysterious you will be ridiculed horribly.
So, God wanted us to have a relationship with him, and he gave us the ability to reject him, but then punishes us with death if we choose to exercise our rights?
So much for the idea of perfection.
Here’s a thought experiment: Let’s say your dog is pregnant and has puppies. You want these puppies to love you, but you also want them to have the freedom of choice. So, your solution is to avoid being seen by or interacting with these puppies in any way, except by feeding them (without being seen) and leaving a few vague clues around (like a pair of socks so they recognize your scent). Would it be moral to kill these puppies when you realize they don’t like you very much?
Wouldn’t it make much more sense to show these puppies compassion and love if you want to be loved yourself?
Your idea that God’s love is eternal in spite of his vague and limited interaction with us is ludicrous. Love is not a one-way street unless you redefine “love”. If someone wants my respect and adoration they had better deserve it. Your God (by your description) does not deserve either.
I’ll skip ahead a bit:
Ok, so Jesus Christ is the personification of God’s psychological treatment.
The biggest problem here is that there is no reliable evidence that Jesus even existed in the first place. The Bible is not an accurate representation of history (http://tinyurl.com/rhkuc) and cannot be used as evidence that Jesus existed (Much in the same way that Mark Twain’s writings can’t be used as evidence that Huck Finn ever existed). There remains no untampered evidence for Jesus’ existence outside the Bible. Therefore there is no good reason to believe Jesus ever existed as described in the Bible.
To believe that he did is a big assumption.
Why do you believe this? Is there some truth about the nature of matter that you are withholding from the scientific community? How can you be convinced of the truth of this statement?
So in order to avoid the infinite regress problem, you’re assigning God the property of eternalness.
How can you know this with any certainty?
I’ll leave you with this final question. If you were born in Iran, would you have left Islam for Christianity?
alatham:
first, thank you for your conversation this far. ive really enjoyed it. and i like how we can discuss and reason without offending or being offended. thanks!
you said: “No two people have the same idea about who or what God is. Even if two people get their god-idea from the same book, there are always internal inconsistencies or individual preferences that cause one person’s idea to be different from another person’s. So the very idea of this God you believe in is quite vague”. and i believe i agree with you to an extent. me and my fellow christian might have a different picture of the same god of the Bible. but you see this is actually k=not uncommon or necessarily wrong. my sister and i both have different views of my dad. she sees him strictly as an authoritative figure, when i see him as more of a friend. this could be for different reasons. 1) we are at different levels in our relationship with him, so his one certain aspect role seems to stick out to us more. 2)we have experienced different things and been through different situations with him that has shaped our view of him. but none the less, he is the same man, and neither of our differing views are incorrect.
and i believe ‘perfect’ t mean “without flaws, defects or shortcomings”. and yes i do believe god is perfect. and i do agree with all that he has done. i cannot say however, that i would have done the same or that i understand it, or that i even understand how it is always the right thing. but i do know that he is forever just and loving and “works all things together for the good of those who love him.” ha. and thanks for the warning about the ridicule. but im getting used to it by now…
and yes, he gave us the ability to not choose him, and yes he punishes with death if we dont choose him. but this is the only way it can be if he is perfect. but he has to command justice. if he just let us off the hook everytime we were in the wrong, he would be a pushover. no one would respect him, because he never punished. so he has to not only because thats what he said, but thats the price that our wrong doings deserve.
and about the puppies analogy. yes i do believe that would be immoral for a number of reasons. 1)the puppies have done nothing wrong or not met a certain set of criteria to deserve death. 2) i avoided interaction with them, so how can i condemn them for not loving or eben knowing me?
but you see…this is not at all the case with God. 1)he set a very clear standard that we chose to not follow, and therefore we have damned ourselves to hell for eternity. 2)he has done incredible amounts to make himself known to us. look around you at he beautiful world and universe! he has created it declaring his wonderful beauty, creativity, and power. he has given us the ability and will to think and ponder and have conversations much like this that always seem to end up asking questions that seem to point to god. and he gave us this incredible book with all that he wanted to say in it. but most choose to not believe or even read it. thats not his fault. the list goes on and on of how he makes himself known to us.
and there is TONS of evidence that christ existed. TONS. like so much that it will require a seperate post of its own. so that will be coming in the next few days.
and the idea that everything didnt come from something seems to be popular. i dont understand. how could all that we are and see not come from anything at all, but just happen to pop into existence? thats just illogical.
and no you did not read what i said about the infinite regress problem clear enough. i said that there had to be somehthing eternal that set everything else into motion. i did say that I PERSONALLY believe that thing is god. but even if you want to believe that eternal thing is matter (which is an obviously ridiculous statment) something has to be ternal and that something put everything else into motion.
and thats an intresting question about Iran and i cannot say for sure that i know. i do know however that romans 1 tells us that god has or will make himself known to every individual in som sort of fashion in there lifetime. so i know i would have been given a chance. and i feel that if i knew what i do now i would convert. but if i was islam, the entire situation and all the circumstances would be different, so there is really no way for me to know how to awnser that.
thats all for now. i really appreciate you for talking and i will get back to you (hopefully by monday) with the evidence that CHrist was indeed a human being.
and to rna2dna:
no im not here to shove this in your face or condemn you or offend and enrage you.
im not here cuz i need your help with my spiritual issues.
no i dont want your applause for my belief system.
and while its not even my purpose here, i do feel that i have a saving message and i would love if you embraced it. but honestly, i doubt you will. and thats fine with me. i hope you find truth in your life and come to a saving relationship with the god of the universe.
but i do appreciate the sarcasm my friend…;)
and to what:
i havent had my iq tested actually. and what i do for a living is just about as beside the point as my iq. my social status and brain capacity has nothing to do with the validity of the claims that either of us are making.
and to tarma:
im sorry the school system has dissapointed you so. and i apologize for my gullibility, lack of GOOD education, and iirationality, but once again, these claims have nothing to do with the validity of either of our arguments.
notofmyself,
sarcasm? None intended.
You didn’t answer my question, care to try again? Or are you a duck and runner? If you are you don’t need to worry, you will be a fine, its a common christian trait.
notofmyself,
Thank you, that is an enlightening post. I too am not here to offend, just to educate. I still have quite a few problems with your statements.
In response to my idea that no two people have the same god-idea:
Fair enough, that’s part of the point I was getting at, but not quite the whole thing. I apologize for not being as clear as I should have been.
Right now we can both at least agree that gods exist as an abstract concept in the minds of Theists. That’s something that can never be refuted.
But in order for an object to make physical changes to the universe it must be more than an abstract concept, therefore that object must have some physical aspects that we can measure or observe. When I asked you to define “God” I was looking for a description of the physical properties of God. These are the kinds of properties that cannot change remarkably between two independent observations.
So, what are the general physical properties of God? Could we ever compile a list of things that God can and cannot do?
Ok, so perfect means “without flaws.” That’s a good definition, I like it.
But in order to use that definition we need an example of what would constitute a flawed god. By what standards can we measure God and say that he is unflawed?
There’s a big problem here. Either you’ve redefined “death” or God doesn’t actually punish disbelief with death. The problem is quite plain to see. Atheists have the same life expectancy as Theists.
So either all Atheists are lying about their disbelief, or God isn’t actually punishing them for it like you seem to think he is.
Now, you didn’t like my puppy analogy, but I think it’s perfectly apt in this case:
I assume you’re talking the Bible.
If the Bible were very clear about everything, there would be only one denomination of the Christian religion. But there are thousands simply because the Bible is so very unclear and internally inconsistent.
When you have two morally disparate groups of people (let’s say the Roman Catholics and the Amish) who claim to get their moral code from the same source (The Bible), the natural conclusion to reach is that the source is not clear.
Even the Bible backs me up here:
Proverbs 14:15: The simple believeth every word: but the prudent man looketh well to his going.
Looks to me like it’s saying to think for yourself and not believe anything without first demanding evidence.
The only way to come to that conclusion is to presume that God exists and then go looking for him. None of what you list constitutes evidence for God’s existence.
I, and the rest of humanity, would like to see it. If you can provide reliable extra-biblical evidence of Jesus’ existence you will be the first in history.
Before you spend too much time doing that, read this article:
http://tinyurl.com/yh26mw
The most common author brought up is Josephus, but it’s very clear that his mentioning of Jesus was forged. If Jesus actually existed the early Christians shouldn’t have had to resort to that, should they?
Why do you keep bringing this up? I’ve already told you we can’t make any judgements about the nature or reality until it can be tested.
Again, that answer is “I don’t know, why don’t we see what we can do about testing it?”
I get all that, I’m not sure why you think I don’t.
Again I ask, how can you know this with any certainty?
This is obviously not the case.
Does a fetus that dies in the womb have a knowledge of God? Does a 1 month old who dies of SIDS have a knowledge of God?
I think that’s impossible, but let’s run a thought experiment and assume that they do. Do you think that your perfect God would condemn a 1 month old infant to an eternity of hell if that 1 month old rejected this God? Even further, would God hold a 1 month old accountable for a decision like that if the 1 month old were mentally challenged?
Notofmyself
It has everything to do with your inability to communicate the means by which one could test the validity of your assertions.
Alatham has asked you for the physical properties of your gawds. To my knowledge the only measurable physical property that your brand of theology assigns to your gawds is that there is countably only one. OK then, tell us by what means one can measure the number of gawds?
What is god judging when he sends you to heaven or hell? Your mind or your soul? If they are both given to you by god, then isn’t it gods fault if you are a bad person. If he gives you a good soul, you may be good or bad depending on your environment (if your raised by a member of the KKK, you’ll probably be racist). Doesn’t god also control your environment?
If he is testing us, why would god test us if he all knowing?
If he is all powerful, couldn’t he have made us in a way that would make us all good believers, and get us all into heaven?
First of all, an eternity in hell is always, eventually, an unfair punishment.
One of the reasons I don’t believe in god is that the belief is too shallow and human. We punish people in society for crimes so that they don’t commit the crimes again. I don’t understand why god doesn’t have the resources to make us better in some other way, rather than an eternity of torture.
Maybe hell is just an empty threat.
OOPS, ‘sbeen awhile since me use blockquotes, sorry.
I wish I could stop myself.
not,
The above quote illustrates the cognitive dissonance of many xian minds. Death is not a “heavy price”, it is a reward (according to your religion). You do this with the very essence of your belief system: Jebus died for us, and Gob gave his only begotten son. You wail and gnash your teeth at the horror of His death yet, “he has gone to a better place.” When you die you will join Him in the eternal bliss which is given to all true xians.
Can it be that the fear of death is the reason why so many people delude themselves to the point of insanity.
Actually, I think That what Not means by death is hell
Hey everyone, I’m new here. I was just thinking last night that xians believe in a god that can know your thoughts and mess with the world when he wants to…but they also believe in the devil with super powers. I had never really thought about how stupid this part of it is, some guy with a tail and a pitch fork pulling pranks on humans…and where is god on this? couldn’t he just kick the devil’s ass or something? Oh well, I just thought about that last night and decided to share it…
Hi zekehampton, and welcome!
Yes indeed, as you have observed, there are some pretty stupid things that xians and other religious people believe. For those of us with the capacity for rational thought, it is both funny and frightening.
When I went to church they would tell me that there was a battle between god and the devil for our souls. OF course this doesn’t make any sense, but the majority of Christians don’t look very deep into things, unless they are trying to bend it.
Quote from notofmyself:
It’s been more than a few days, where’s the evidence Jesus was an actual physical being?
I wonder, could it be that there really isn’t any?