DECATUR, Ga. – The 80-year-old leader of a suburban Atlanta megachurch is at the center of a sex scandal of biblical dimensions: He slept with his brother’s wife and fathered a child by her.Members of Archbishop Earl Paulk’s family stood at the pulpit of the Cathedral of the Holy Spirit at Chapel Hill Harvester Church a few Sundays ago and revealed the secret exposed by a recent court-ordered paternity test.In truth, this is not the first ? or even the second ? sex scandal to engulf Paulk and the independent, charismatic church. But this time, he could be in trouble with the law for lying under oath about the affair.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21888916/
JC
Anyway, if life doesn’t mean nothing, then it has to mean something.
It’s beyond me what anyone would want that meaning to be.
Has anybody ever been able to assign a meaning to it?
And what would that change?
mxracer,
Laughter purges all….Makes you feel as if you are sloughing off skanky Bush demons and old skin and past loves and idiotic politicians and frothy true believers…
What, karen,
Let me try and clarify…
“Alexander wept for there were no more worlds to conquer.”
It seems logical to me that barring self-destruction, or an unfortunate meeting with a large asteroid, human knowledge will continue to increase to the inevitable point of understanding current mysteries such as first cause, and our role in the grand scheme of things. I believe we are living in exciting times because we seem to be on the verge of many breakthroughs. I think this subconsciously drives us forward as a species. There is still the unknown. What I am asking about, I have never seen discussion on, which is what happens to advanced sentient beings when nothing more is unknown? Isn’t that somthing to fear?
JC
knowledge is not morality we will still have our fellow humans to fear.i like your question.
JC
Somehow, I think there will always be more to learn.
Think of what percentage of the population devotes itself to research and discovery compared to those of us who mostly reap the benefits. Already the greater number are complacent without breakthroughs. Admittedly the great majority of those people also believe that there is a life beyond this one.
But perhaps when -and if(can’t fathom it)- scientific knowledge comes to a stand-still, people will devote more time to understanding each other and maybe learn to cohabit without killing one another.
Even though we’re advanced sentient beings, we’re still pretty brutal and selfish. Maybe we can work on that.
And there’s always basket weaving.
karen,
I know it’s hard to fathom, but think how much knowledge we have gained in just the last few hundred years. Now apply a scale of thousands or even millions of years. I still think those complacent people may have an underlying sense of wonder.
Yes, I can appreciate such a climactic result of billions of years worth of evolution.
JC wondered:
Isn’t that what the christian refers to as heaven?
I’ve heard E.O. Wilson describe the christian heaven as his idea of hell. That is, in an eternal state of knowing everything with nothing to wonder about, nothing to discover. Wilson is a deist. I find deists acceptable because their ideas don’t interfere with reality.
Back to your musing though. So you are interested in a time when humans have solved all beginning and ending problems, all social and economic problems, all law and order problems, and they really have nothing to concern themselves with except what to do to keep their minds busy. And everyone accepts the truth of all that stuff, in other words, there is no christian running around that people could amuse themselves with while trying to teach it the truth as opposed to the “Truth”.
Would they also know about all other possible life in the universe? Would they also know about all the characteristics and abilities of all the different life on earth. Will they have wondered about and experimented with everything and there is truly nothing left for an inquisitive mind to do? Will they have invented and maximized all the toys there are to be toyed with? Will they all have instant knowledge of everything because their minds will be tied to a computer that contains all knowledge?
Well I guess they’re just shit up a creek with a perfect paddle
Seriously, I would want to know what there is to know even if the knowing would mean there was nothing left unknown, anything less seems self deceiving. So maybe the question is would it be too boring? Don’t know. Let’s get on with it and find out! But let’s not destroy Earth or its wonderful creatures in the process, for FSM’s sake.
rna2dna,
Yes, this is it exactly.
I sincerely hope this could never be possible.
JC
how do you know a race of beings hasn’t already reached that level.
JC
I’m watching House.
A timely quote:
If there’s no wonder when the truth is known, then there was never really any wonder.
reason,
An excellent point. The thought had not escaped me. However, as we have not yet been made (to my knowledge verifiably) aware of the existence of such beings, I feel it’s best to proceed with and contemplate our own race as if we are the first, or possibly only ones until such time as the circumstances change.
JC
complete knowledge without a concurrent increase in wisdom appears to me a recipe for destruction of our species.
karen,
That’s an interesting quote, but I do feel scientific truth might cause people to wonder. I believe we have a very warped perception of reality, for what the truth may actually be.
JC
Shoot. I’m not sure we’ll even make it to thousands, let alone millions. I didn’t realize you were concerning yourself with our progeny that far into the future. But assuming they do get kinder, gentler and smarter, and don’t blow themselves off this rock before they find another habitable one, I can see where they might run out of reasons to hitch electrodes to mice running through mazes.
As to the christian heaven being hell, I agree completely. I have said as much here before, and rather recently, I think. But it’s not the knowing everything that would be hell to me, it would be the eternity I couldn’t stand. And everything being *perfect* (whatever that is).
atomictesting,
Not when W is in office (no offense intended George, just in hopes that you will be able to spell it.) I suppose we could have future fundie Presidents that will create more problems for the Nation. They probably will become less obvious about their intentions than W was before they are elected. There is no doubt that the christian wants to control the World with deception and fear. Which could certainly mean robotsville (that is, independent thought and action being vigorously discouraged) for most of us.
I agree with your assessment of the issues in your comment that I have quoted from. The question becomes how to solve the problem. In some of your prior posts it appeared that you want to put more trust in corporations. I don’t trust the corporations any more than I trust the christian. So I don’t favor that approach as a solution.
To me the biggest problem right now is the christian. We aren’t going to be able to have honest government and honest national policy when we are being driven around by delusion and sheeple herders.
JC
There are a number of problems with what you have stated but I will focus on one – your implied notion that the human nervous system has unlimited potential. There is nothing to suggest that it is the case and much to suggest it is not the case. We, like all species, have limitations with respect to the type of interactions our nervous systems have with the universe. Furthermore our nervous systems can be expected to be limited with respect to what they can do with the information it obtains from its interactions with the universe. This is true for every other species and I would not dare to suggest otherwise. I think that it is more likely that we will hit a wall beyond which we can not move with respect to acquiring what could be called fundamental knowledge of the universe.
Ok, I know xtians have never been about consistency and cherry pick what they want to beleive, but either the 90% is long outdated, or the writer can not do math.
It should be changed to roughly 82% (100% – 9% – 9% explained for the xtians) to reflect the current numbers for atheists mentioned in the article.
I remember taking a constitutional law class in college and being shown the strengths and weaknesses of a written constitution versus unwritten. AT’s comments highlight the weaknesses; namely that the language and concepts used will begin to morph and become outmoded as time goes on. It certainly is the simplest form of constitution, but is not without its problems.
What,
I agree there is a possibility that this could affect our conceptual ability. It’s an interesting consideration. What is the limit to what we can conceive of? Is there a limit? Since, in addition to the mysteries of reality, we don’t yet fully understand how the mind works we can only speculate. I don’t believe we have to have direct experience in order to conceive of something. I lean toward the possibility that we can in fact gain total understanding. It would be hard to argue why this couldn’t be the case.
What were the other problems you had with what I stated?
JC,
WTF are you talking about in this
The only folks that believe in that crap are the religidiots! That’s their reasoning to claim that the Universe was made for man – THAT’S Bullshit!
666,
I’m a bit amused that you would call me on that.
Like many here, I was raised in this xian nation hearing theistic phrases. That may have been a poor choice of words. I did not mean to imply anything theistic. The closest I would come to it would be the God of Spinoza, which Einstein and even Richard Dawkins don’t have a problem with from what I understand.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baruch_Spinoza
I was going to say the same thing as What, with regard to how much knowledge our minds can contain and comprehend. But he beat me by a number of hours (I only just read through this, wish I had started reading earlier).
We are absolutely a limited species, and because of this (as What mentioned), we might one day reach a glass ceiling. At that point, only those who’ve evolved a higher glass ceiling will be able to obtain more knowledge.
Humanity (if it doesn’t destroy itself) will probably evolve into something more intelligent at one point. As that happens, the glass ceiling will get pushed higher.
It’s difficult to predict when this will happen, but I can’t see it happening during any of our lifetimes. I am, of course, biased with respect to my own intellectual limits, so take that with a grain of salt.
The idea that there is some universal limit to the possible understanding of the universe is something that I have trouble comprehending, but it’s certainly interesting.
JC,
Again, I’m with What here (it appears this happens quite often). I’m a bit confused as to what exactly you’re getting at. Is there an older discussion that you and karen are privy to that we might read? I feel like there is some unspoken understanding that I haven’t grasped.
I’m glad your parents accepted your Atheism. My father did without question (he’s a still-closeted Atheist, that was a surprise), but my mother went through a minor crisis. I’m good at speaking openly about what I believe, and she was quickly convinced that Atheists aren’t nearly as crazy as she had been led to believe.
As for your musings in philosophy, I find them interesting. My personal feelings are that the universe gravitates towards Nihilism, but humanity can at least trick itself into Existentialism. However, I’m not at all convinced that anyone could ever prove the universe is nihilistic. I think there is some knowledge that humanity (as we are now) cannot ever comprehend. That’s a feeling that I accept, and it causes me no remorse since I don’t believe I will ever reach the limit of my own personal ability to understand.
Alatham
I agree with most of what you have written but
If Nihilism or Existentialism is the answer then what is the question?
What,
Good point.
I was just stating what my philosophical beliefs lean towards. I meant to state that the universe doesn’t care, but humans can make themselves care.
As for the question that has been alluded to in this thread, there is no question. There is only cheesecake. Cheesecake and nihilism.
JC,
Didn’t mean to slam on you, but I’m constantly bombarded with the argument in regards to the Purpose of the Universe as I live in THE buckle of the bible belt.
I’m with alatham as far as this is concerned
After all, if the universe is non-sentient why would anyone think there is a “grand scheme”??
MMM-mmmMMMM!!! Cheesecake!
alatham,
Yes, that what I have arrived at as well.
It’s not necessary to have participated in prior discussions to formulate opinion and express philosophy about the ideas I’m presenting now. It’s simply a question of “what if?” I’m asking what if you and What are underestimating our current cognitive ability, or even overestimating the complexity of the answers we seek? It is from that perspective that I pose these ideas.
I’m happy that you were able to share your atheism with your parents. I think it can be important. I wonder how many here still have not? I think it may be one of the tougher things about being atheist. I wouldn’t say my parents have accepted my atheism. They still accept me as their son. My mom might have some bit of acceptance, but my dad feels I am probably just “experimenting.” *sigh*
666,
Yes, “scheme” can be defined as “an elaborate and systematic plan of action,” but it can also be defined as “system: a group of independent but interrelated elements comprising a unified whole,” which is why I mentioned the God of Spinoza. The Buckle of the Bible Belt? Wow, apologies quite unnecessary.
JC
I told my folks when I was 17 and it didn’t go over well at all. Actually, my Dad didn’t have much too say, but Mom was pretty hysterical. She even invoked my middle name. “OH NO YOU’RE NOT, KAREN JEAN! Not in THIS HOUSE!!!!You say you’re sorry and ask God for forgiveness right this minute!!! Blah, blah blah, screech, screech!”
They even tried making me go to church till I became so disrespectful while there they were too embarrassed to be seen with me and let me stay home.
It became a subject that if simply not talked about, would not be real to them. Mom never did come to terms with it. For Dad, I think church was more of a social club. He was always doing things for others, a genuine good person, despite a hidden racism I was unaware of till age 19. I’m not sure he was all that into god himself.
karen,
LMAO! Although, I’m sure it wasn’t remotely funny at the time.
JC,
Unlike the christian, as Atheists we have an unbounded freedom of mental expression and thought. However, like 666, I try to avoid the traps set by the christian. The christian often uses the “grand scheme of things” to express their delusional beliefs of a creationist plan. When I read that phrase I also thought what the fuck is that about. The christian is also likely to read that phrase and think that you believe in a planned Universe, which of coarse is not a common stand among atheists.
rna2dna,
Yes, I agree the phrase can be easily misinterpreted as theistic, and therefore a poor choice of words for an atheist to use. I will try to be more careful.
666,
Just remember, belts make wonderful strangulation devices too.
Cheesecake and nihilism! Turkey too?
Have a good Thanksgiving everyone.
Have a Happy Thanksgiving!