(CNN) — A federal jury in Baltimore, Maryland, Wednesday awarded $10.9 million to a father of a Marine whose funeral was picketed by members of a fundamentalist church carrying signs blaming soldiers’ deaths on America’s tolerance of homosexuals. The family of Lance Cpl. Matthew Snyder — who was killed in a vehicle accident in Iraq’s Anbar province in 2006 — sued the Westboro Baptist Church in Topeka, Kansas, and its leaders for defamation, invasion of privacy and intentional infliction of emotional distress.Church members showed up at Snyder’s funeral chanting derogatory slogans and holding picket signs with messages including “God Hates Fags.”They’ve picketed the funerals of dozens of troops killed in Iraq and Afghanistan, claiming that God is punishing the United States because of its tolerance for homosexuality.Al Snyder, father of the slain Marine, said he considered filing the lawsuit for a long time before going forward and that he hoped the judgment would make it harder for the church to continue such protests. “It’s hard enough burying a 20-year-old son, much less having to deal with something like this,” he said, recalling that some of the other signs at the funeral included “Thank God for dead soldiers” and “Thank God for IEDs.” Watch the fallen Marine’s father describe his reaction ?”As far as their picketing goes, they want to do it in front of a courthouse, they want to do it in a public park, I could care less. But I couldn’t let them get away with doing this to our military,” Al Snyder said.Snyder’s attorney told jurors to pick an amount “that says don’t do this in Maryland again. Do not bring your circus of hate to Maryland again,” according to The Associated Press.The award includes $2.9 million in compensatory damages and $8 million in punitive damages, a clerk in the judge’s chambers said.
Dave’s problem: The money they pay to this family will have been earned tax free
troydooly,
Well, it is strange that you would write that and then proceed to disagree with the point of what I wrote. Perhaps you wanted to politely disagree or disagree while hoping that I would believe that your statements didn’t have a different meaning.
That my be true but, apparently you missed reading and hearing about the Christians that did the disgusting actions and those that supported it. Your statement reminds me of the earlier part of the W dictatorship, when he would search the United States for one person that agreed with his policy then declare victory in the debate.
Yeah, that really isn’t making much sense is it? Ignoring the last three words because it isn’t clear as to the intended example, it seems that people generally become Christians through some form of brainwashing combined with fear and deceit resulting in a state of delusion for the unfortunate victims of Christianity.
No, the statement I made is true. You see you run into problems when you start trying to reinterpret the mythology of Jesus. You see, everyone can grab whatever meaning they need from it to justify anything that they do including, physical and mental abuse, murder and, wars of mass destruction. While at the same time declaring that your victim is being helped by the true Christian way and the teachings of Jesus.
A good Atheist is not a theist. A good Christian is a theist. That’s about the only valid comparison that can be made. A good Christian can torture people and claim that their actions are the will of their God idea. An Atheist can’t torture someone and claim that their actions are the will of Atheism. Atheists can’t drum up public support for a war by claiming to be acting on the will of some God idea. A good Christian can happily put “In God We Trust” on the legal tender of a nation that has no such requirement for citizenship, thus forcing good citizens to participate in an illegal action.
There is no doubt that is true. Each Christian believes that their view of a God idea is the correct one and each of those God ideas are different in some way.
If having a personal God idea, heaven and hell, makes you feel better then have at it but, realize that it is your personal God idea. Your God idea does NOT belong to a nation and it does NOT belong in a Government that is not a theocracy. When you go into a public place and invoke your God idea, you are doing nothing more than invoking your own will.
No God.
Please, no more of this “shouting fire” argument. It is defunct. The current standard is “Brandenburg vs Ohio”, in which the Supreme Court defended the right of free speech for a pretty despicable person, a KKK’er.
http://www.answers.com/topic/brandenburg-v-ohio
“The Brandenburg test, however, allowed government to punish the advocacy of illegal action only if ?such advocacy is directed to inciting or producing imminent lawless action and is likely to incite or produce such action? (p. 447).
By requiring an actual empirical finding of imminent harm, this test protects the advocacy of lawlessness except in unusual instances. But government may still punish speech that is demonstrably dangerous. The test is also distinctly more objective than the old danger test. Brandenburg is the linchpin of the modern doctrine of free speech, which seeks to give special protection to politically relevant speech and to distinguish speech from action.”
These Westbro folks were apparently not even advocating lawlessness. The fact that it was a civil suit is a means of avoiding strict standards for protection of free speech.
It is a dangerous precedent.
Comment from: reason
Reason…do you always see the actions of a few and apply those actions to an entire group…?
This so called “church” is nothing more then a family cult…passing itself off as a church…if you think their actions speak for the entire christian community, then please provide the name of 3 other denominations or churches who support their protests…???
Don’t most xians think that “god hates fags”? That sure is the picture presented by xianity to most of us godless sodomites.
bernarda,
How would you react to an organization delving into your private life and displaying anything they want, and then harassing you personally when they have a complaint about policies of government?
I’m actually curious. What avenues of redress would you advocate?
As far as the folks that are whining about this event not being the actions of “TrueChristians” (which fits the No True Scotsman fallacy to a T), if you’re not part of the solution – you’re part of the problem!
While I’m throwing cliches around, here’s another: Actions speak louder than words. What are you doing?
rna2dna,
Add the first sentence I wrote with the second sentence I wrote and it makes since. “I agree that most Christians DO NOT support this type of actions.”
I had no hidden agenda of hoping you would think my statement had a different meaning.
That my be true but, apparently you missed reading and hearing about the Christians that did the disgusting actions and those that supported it. Your statement reminds me of the earlier part of the W dictatorship, when he would search the United States for one person that agreed with his policy then declare victory in the debate.
Just because a person or group of people want to use the phrase “I (we) are Christians and do this in the name of God) doesn’t make it true.
Since the dawn of time people have been using GOD as a crutch to spew their hatred. My personal belief is that God is given to much credit for the actions of humans – good and bad.
And, unlike “W” I can show you tens of thousands who believe just like I do, and who are changing the face of the Christian community all over the world.
666 wrote “actions speak louder than words” and he is right. Here are a couple of links that may shed light what some of us are doing http://www.catalystspace.com/
http://www.fermiproject.com/
http://www.heartsupport.com/
http://www.deadlyviper.org/
http://www.twloha.com/
It’s not about winning a debate on hat I believe, you believe or some flaky group believes. It about coming together as humans to make a difference while we can.
Yeah, that really isn’t making much sense is it? Ignoring the last three words because it isn’t clear as to the intended example, it seems that people generally become Christians through some form of brainwashing combined with fear and deceit resulting in a state of delusion for the unfortunate victims of Christianity.
Since I do not know why you have come to the above quoted conclusion.
I can say that the Christians I run with are none of the above.
Here is a little insight into my personal life as an example.
I am the father of six ranging from 24 to 4. In this little post lets just focus on the oldest three boys. My oldest escaped from a jail in Colorado and is facing 24 years when caught. My 21 year old is about to be a father, and will be getting married (maybe) next month. My 17 year old is also going to be a father and is not planing on getting married – just yet.
Now if I was one of those who fall into your conclusion I would have turned my back on my boys, cursed Satan for sending demons lust and sexual perversion (in the form of girls) to cause my boys to fall to temptation and sin.
Instead, I realize all humans have the freedom of choice, and in the case of all three boys they choice some actions that have some life changing results.
And in the case of my 21 year old he and the mother of his soon to be child have even discussed getting an abortion. And even though his mother and I would have been very heart broken if he had made this choice, it was his choice to make.
No the reason I bring this up is because all three boys were brought up in a ‘Christian home” Yet are not brainwashed or running around in life brainwashed, fearful of death or living a life based on deceit.
So although your conclusion may be true based on the lens in which you view Christianity, my real life personal experience is 180 degrees different.
No, the statement I made is true. You see you run into problems when you start trying to reinterpret the mythology of Jesus. You see, everyone can grab whatever meaning they need from it to justify anything that they do including, physical and mental abuse, murder and, wars of mass destruction. While at the same time declaring that your victim is being helped by the true Christian way and the teachings of Jesus.
I disagree! Even the most outspoken critics to Christians. And I am talking about those who DO NOT believe in the mythical Jesus, agree He spoke of love, community, and building relationships. His actions completely defied the Jewish religious leaders. He hung out with everyday folks, people who were despised by the “religious right” (my term) of the day. As a matter of fact lets think about it for a second.
What do you think the above church would do if Jesus was hanging out today, and they heard that while He was resting at a friends a known prostitute came by and poured oil on His feet (while his crew was watching) and began to massage the oil into his legs and feet with her long flowing hair?
So no I don;t think Jesus’s message can be misinterpreted! But I do beleive people on both sides of the isle can take His words and use them to further their own personal agenda.
A good Atheist is not a theist. A good Christian is a theist. That’s about the only valid comparison that can be made. A good Christian can torture people and claim that their actions are the will of their God idea. An Atheist can’t torture someone and claim that their actions are the will of Atheism. Atheists can’t drum up public support for a war by claiming to be acting on the will of some God idea. A good Christian can happily put “In God We Trust” on the legal tender of a nation that has no such requirement for citizenship, thus forcing good citizens to participate in an illegal action.
This is not completely correct (not the atheism part) but the part on “a good christian is a theist.” Although most are theist by default, there are some “good Christians” who are Deist. And although Deism is not running rapid in the American church, it was very prevalent in the early part of our formation.
The other issue I have with your conclusion is your use of “good Christian.” You keep expressing a belief that “good christians” do ONLY evil things, and use their God as a crutch for those evil actions.
Although I do agree (as I have witten) that God does get used as a crutch by several organizations who call themselves “Christian.” However, to define Good Christians” with this definition, would mean that a “bad (non-good) Christian” is someone who does not blame or give God credit for their actions.
Although I might be wrong, it seems to me you have a very filtered lens as to what makes a “good Christian.”
As for a “good Christian” putting “In God We Trust” on legal tender, or placing “under God” in the pledge. Both were not the action of one person, and I’ll bet that not all who voted “yes” to both were “good Christians” or may have been Christians at all.
There is no doubt that is true. Each Christian believes that their view of a God idea is the correct one and each of those God ideas are different in some way.
Such a true statement! Which is why there are so many different denominations, and more being started everyday.
If having a personal God idea, heaven and hell, makes you feel better then have at it but, realize that it is your personal God idea. Your God idea does NOT belong to a nation and it does NOT belong in a Government that is not a theocracy. When you go into a public place and invoke your God idea, you are doing nothing more than invoking your own will.
The concept of having a relationship with Jesus, should be a personal issue, and should never be something that is pushed down anyones throat.
I fully agree, no nation should ever be told who or what they can worship or believe in. Which is why this Republic was formed in the first place.
And, I can guarantee you that I will never give God credit for my on personal actions (good or bad). I was born with a free will. God doesn’t control my actions or anyone else’s like some puppet master.
I think I have a great idea where you are coming from. Thank you for taking time to share your thoughts.
alexatheist,
Don’t most xians think that “god hates fags”? That sure is the picture presented by xianity to most of us godless sodomites.
No most xians don’t think “god hates fags(your words.) But a small group of very vocal xians do promote this belief in their actions.
And since a majority of “non-Christians” have this perception of us, and I am a firm believer that perception is reality.
Here is one that may open a can of worms…
Who is to say a gay person can’t be a Christian?
If someone uses the fact “the bible states, sodomy is a sin, punishable by death.” Well so is kids who disobey their parents.
And, it’s not about being gay, it’s about being a bigot – plain and simple and is just another excuse to push a personal agenda.
666, what I might “feel” about it is entirely irrelevant.
666,
As far as the folks that are whining about this event not being the actions of “TrueChristians” (which fits the No True Scotsman fallacy to a T), if you’re not part of the solution – you’re part of the problem!
While I’m throwing cliches around, here’s another: Actions speak louder than words. What are you doing?
I do not believe the word was “true Christians” but “good Christians”
However, you stated it best “Actions speak louder than words.”
The actions of these few “Christians” does show us where their heart felt passions are focused.
And as someone who seen the good, bad and ugly of the Christian community from the inside, I can say their actions are not the actions of the majority.
Now as to “What am I doing” here are a few things I am personally involved.
http://www.rwandacleanwater.com
http://www.unchristian.com/
http://www.notforsalecampaign.org/
http://tomsshoes.com
http://www.twloha.com/
http://www.thepeaceplan.com/
http://www.CatalystSpace.com
I am giving money and time to these organizations. And in some cases buying their products.
Along with these national organizations, I have also started a local organization where we reach out to those who are living in the margins to help where they need help.
I have also started blogging and speaking on the issues I have seen raised out of the un-Christian lifestyle we Christians love to lead.
We are always quite to see the splinter in someone else’s life,yet never ant to mention the 2×4 in our own.
And I do fully agree, if you are not part of the solution, then you are part of the problem.
bernarda,
Please show me where I asked what you “feel”.
To repeat:
TO EVERYONE:
Libel and/or Slander (which is what defamation falls under) is not protected as free speech.
You need reason & evidence to prove your remarks were not knowingly false.
We need not beat a dead horse any more.
Perhaps Troy should’ve taken a time out in Sunday school to teach his boys how to put a rubber on.
Here’s a song for ya Troy:
“Tonight there’s gonna be a jailbreak, somewhere in this town…”
Sorry, I couldn’t resist!
ROFLOL,
I hated Sunday School which may have been part of the issue, I never made the boys go if they didn’t want to go.
And, since we all believe in freedom of choice, the boys made some choices, and now they have some new ones to make.
As for the jailbreak…
If there is a bounty, I’ll be around
Have a fun day.
Never Give Up,
Troy
troy,
1.Substitution of the word “good” for “true” doesn’t invalidate the fallacy. You can read about it here:
http://atheism.about.com
type in “no true scotsman” in the search box.
By the way, this is a pretty good site to investigate ideas about atheism in general.
2.Why do you think you have to be any kind of religious believer in order to participate in the efforts you refer to? Morality/ethical behavior is not restricted to the religious, Please don’t make that mistake. Many atheists participate in all sorts of altruistic projects and behavior.
They just don’t tend to brag about it.
troy,
I missed what you stated here earlier
You need to realize that Deists believe that a god created the universe then disengaged. Not believers in christianity.
Deist=belief in non-intervening god. period.
christian=belief in intervening god and j.c.
troydooly
TroyD
Only an xian could screw there kids up that bad and not realize they are the cause.
TroyD
and
Guess who’s part of the problem!
WOW!
666,
Thank you! This is a great resource for my limited knowledge on atheism.
666,
Please have patience with me on this. In a above post to me, you made the statement “what are you doing?” My response was not to imply that “only religious” people participate in altruistic projects. It was only to answer your question.
And, I was not bragging at all, just giving examples of what I was doing to be part of the solutions.
If I came across as bragging, I am sorry, it was not my intent.
I do realize that Deism contradicts orthodox Christianity, at least western orthodox Christianity. However there are also people who called themselves Deists and even Masons (seen as a cult by some) who also call themselves Christians (although most modern Christians never talk about this when they call the USA a Christian nation) men like George Washington, Ben Franklin, and Thomas Jefferson to name three.
I just think it is a little judgmental to say Deist can’t be Christians. It seems to me that would be like saying because a “orthodox Preterist” believes all prophesies have been fulfilled (including the second coming of Jesus) that they are not Christians.
And, although some Christian believe “God is always intervening” there are also Christians who believe “God can intervene” but has given humans free will and will not intervene in their personal choices.
Thank you again for your patience.
Troy
Dear “What”
I am not sure how you can come to this conclusion, but I am interested in learning more.
Can you explain just a little deeper?
Thanks in advance,
Troy
Troy
What explanation is needed? You have admitted to having too many children and having done a poor job raising them. Surprise! You’re part of the problem.
troy,
1. In my query
I was addressing “moderate xtians” collectively, not you personally. Far too often we hear their disclaimers yet without any action of substance.
Unfortunately, due to the thousands of sects of christianity, there are those who believe exactly as Phelps, etc.
2 a. Most people that call themselves christian deists don’t know what the terms mean. Once the difference has been pointed out, they quickly jump off the fence. b.People (such as GW, BF, and TJ) of the time [and even now] pander to the public in announcing their “christianity” in an effort to be considered “of the people” due to their fear of ridicule, and ostracism. Check this out:
http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2007/02/black_president_more_likely_than_mormon_or_atheist_/
3. In order to address the idea of free will vs. god, some definition of said god would need to be provided.
Omniscient?, omnipotent?, etc.
because this presents a self-contradiction. Free will is negated in regards to omniscience. When a god already knows the outcome, what’s the point of free will? Other such quandaries can be found in “Why Atheism” by George H. Smith. Try your library.
I know I’m inundating you with sites to check out, but they go into things which would take pages in this comment area to flesh out. This site might seem offensive to you but it poses some serious questions:
http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/
This particular quote has shown up in these comments before. I emphasized one important word.
“I contend we are both atheists, I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours.”
Stephen F Roberts
FYI, some reasons you may find scorn/derision from many of the posters:
Questions that have been asked and answered so many times before get to be boring.
Prosetelyzing on an atheist site invites ridicule when answers have been ignored or twisted.
666,
Thanks, I understand. I’ll go do some more studying and less talking for a bit.
Troy
Good point alatham. What those picketers did was wrong, but not worth that much money. Thank god for dead soldiers? What kind of Christians are those!
jimmy,
Loud Christians.
But no less Christian than anyone else who believes Jesus is/was the son of God.