From a Duke student doing a study. please post your opinions.
Palliative care, as you probably know, is started when individuals are approaching death. It is where treatment of the disease is stopped, and treatment of pain and symptoms are made the focus.Some may see palliative care as ‘giving-up’ and accepting death. When palliative care is mentioned, often there are other options of very aggressive treatment with small success rates. With this in mind…1) Would an atheist be less likely to accept palliative care as an option?2) If accepting palliative care and knowing that death within a few short weeks or months was nearly inevitable, would an atheist have a harder time dealing with this end of life process? I know its hard to generalize about ‘all atheists’, however I am trying to get a feel for how one who believes in atheism would deal with the process of death.
Dave…GREAT THREAD!!!
Thanks for posting a great topic…
I’m quite certain that if I’m in pain, I would accept pain management.
When I consider my death, I always inject Sir John Guilgud’s character, Hobson, from Arthur, into my inevitable future scenario. He stated that impending death is not so bad once you’re old and tired. I believe that, and hope that one day, after leading a full and productive life, and knowing I made my mark on the world (because as Blackbeard said, “You only live through history”), I will welcome the final stage of my circle of life.
But the key will be “a full and productive life.”
***OT***
OMFG Watch the texas state legislature vote, in horror.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eG6X-xtVask
Christians have wasted their lives…now that’s funny also…
But anyway…I agree with those who have stated that both non-religious and religious folks would most likely face death the same way…
This is a total misunderstanding of what it means to be christian…
“I believe…help me with my unbelief”…
Being a believer does not make one invincible to the trials of life…it does however give one a Rock to lean upon…(I’m not looking for an argument, just trying to explain).
As we all approach death it would only be natural to question our life long beliefs…whether believer or not. It’s called human nature. And as I’ve said many times, I have never met a believer that at one time or another hasn’t questioned their faith…
Of course there is saddness at the end…I believe that both Dave and myself would be extremely sad at leaving our daughters behind…but that has nothing to do with whether or not I believe in an afterlife or not…it does however give hope to those left behind that we will see each other again…that hope does not exist to non-believers…
Of course I know those who don’t want to have an honest discussion will no doubt diss me for making that statement…
I have had several (christian) friends who have come to this point in life…and they have all decided not to ask for additional care, knowing it will do nothing. For two reasons…
First- economics…why leave the debt if it won’t do anything…
Second- the quality of the time left to spend with loved ones…
But if that hope is false, then you are delusional. I hope to win the mega-l@ttery, but I don’t buy l@ttery tickets, so I am not going to delude myself into thinking that I may one day win. All that does is sets me up for internet scams claiming I have won the Norwegian L@ttery and for a small processing fee, I will receive my million Kronar in a certified check in the mail.
Also, Christians are quick to bash scientists, even though their inventions greatly improve the lives of those that would call them wrong or misguided. So, if you truly believe in God, I suggest you put all your trust in his omnipotentness, and wave off all medical care when you are sick. After all, with God, all things are possible. Even miraculous cures. Of course, only True Christians receive miracles, so don’t hold YOUR breath.
I would argue that the point is not that christians waste their life. They do have children and wives and people that love them. I cannot really see that as a waste.
That said, christians do cause themselves and others harm and stress that is false and manufactured. The larger point is what they miss DURING their lives. They entirely miss out on a journey to find truth. One that is far more rewarding than fear and guilt. They miss out on the real history of the earth and the understanding of how we got where we are. Ignoring history is ignoring the lessons that it teaches. They miss out on the benefits of morality, and instead of reason let myth dictate what law. Christianity demands a life of servitude to an imaginary friend.
While it may not be a total waste, the christian life could easily be made richer without myth. Cognitive Dissonance is just one more example of settling for less, instead of reaching for more.
Reaching for more is cool
Despite knowing with certainty that there is no afterlife, I have no fear of dying. After all, it cannot be avoided. I only have a problem with the pain that is associated with death’s coming. As such, I would take whatever pain-relieving actions that could be taken. I watched my father die from cancer and the only thing making it bearable was knowing that the drugs etc. were preventing some of the pain.
Comment from: redkeeper
Wow…help us all out. Tell us “scientifically” how you know this to be true…???
jshanewhit
Have you ever claimed to be a born again believer…?
Wow dickhead…help us all out. Tell us “scientifically” how you know this NOT to be true.
Hmmm…hey Ren. I see you’re having a tough day…
Scientifically? I can’t…but then again, I’m not the one that demands scientific proof for everything before I believe…
Thank you for noticing. But if you were more astute, you would realize that today is no different than any other day. PTSD is like Groundhog’s day on the Brown Acid.
BTW, I actually agreed with you ref: Discipline begins at home. I just couldn’t bring myself to admit it publicly, until now.
I have two very well behaved young’uns because it is reinforced on a daily basis. And that is on top of them being exposed to me, so that is really saying something. I often times use myself as an example of how NOT to act. They are both old enough and smart enough to know that daddy is sick. I am never so proud as when I go to Parent / Teacher night at school and hear them fawned over by their teachers.
Sorry for the dickhead remark. It has become pavlovian at this point. I will try to be a better blogger.
One of life’s greatest gifts…
Somebody is doing something right at home…
Sometimes it’s hard to understand exactly where someone stands in life and what daily trials they face…let me also try to be more understanding…
Phreedm,
Let me start, by no more name calling. I will address you by your given name from now on. When we disagree, as I am sure we will, let’s try to do it more agreeably.
I don’t know if you remember a while back, when I said some terrible things about your nephew. Just a few posts later, I believe I was speaking with Karen, I mentioned that I don’t really want anything bad to happen to anyone. It was just my way of lashing out at you. Please forgive me. I would never wish anything bad on anyone, and I would certainly never wish my situation on your nephew. I hope he is home safely, or will be home safely, soon.
Answer to first question:
No, an atheist would be more likely to accept palliative care because he or she knows that this life is all that there is, so they might as well get the most out of it. I personally have no fear of dying or expecting heaven or paradise. My only concern might me that I have taken care of my personal matters. My living will does state however, that I do not want to be kept alive by artificial means.
Second question:
I assume that “harder time” refers to “harder” than a believer. No, because I have just simply accepted the fact that when the end comes, that’s it. If per chance there is more, then great, but I really doubt it and am not counting on it.
Since I have seen medicinal “miracles” and not religious ones, I would be inclined to gamble on a medical intervention that might give me a few more moments with my loved one(s). It really depends on the disease or condition, and my beloved would be likely making these decisions for me, and he will have to balance what he knows as my desires with the possible outcomes and live with the results. Since we understand each other completely, we trust each other to do what’s best for the other, more than we even trust ourselves to make those plans. So, the issue for us, (both atheists) is our love for each other, not for any deity.
I am quoting my daughter here. She is an RN with many years behind her who deals with death and dying on a regular basis:
?There seems to be considerable confusion as to what palliative care is, and is not. Palliative care is nothing more than providing comfort measures when all hope of avoiding death is gone. It includes anything that can make the patient more comfortable ? no more painful tests, no constant needle sticks, adequate pain medication, etc. It may include music, a family member reading the bible to the dying person or anything that may comfort the patient.
?Each of us needs a living will (advance directive) because we want our wishes to be known to our family so that it will not be left to them to wonder what you would have wanted. In that living will decisions need to be made as to whether you want resuscitation undertaken or not (DNR ? Do Not Resuscitate), or DNI (Do Not Intubeate, use of breathing machine), or whether you would wish to have a permanent feeding tube placed. These are important decisions.
?Consider resuscitation. Approximately 50% of those resusitated in a hospital setting are brought back to life. Most of those, however, live only long enough to die again. Only about 1% leave the hospital alive, and that often means being transferred to a nursing home to await the end. It?s a hard question at any age. Just days ago I had a 22 yr. old female who was successfully resuscitated but is now a vegetable. If you are elderly it may mean broken ribs or muscles damaged by the paddles and the odds are against regaining your old life.
Intubation: The odds of getting off of a breathing machine and resuming any quality of life are slim. It keeps you alive, but generally speaking, if you continue to survive your family is then placed in the situation of whether to leave you on a breathing machine indefinitely.
?Feeding tube: In my experience feeding tubes extend life, sometimes for years, with dismal outcomes.
?When we?re talking any of these measures we?re speaking of a hospital situation where you, the patient, are out to lunch, so to speak. However, even though your living will tells your doctor that you may want none of these measures, the DNR and other measures will not be put into effect unless your doctor, who will confer with your family, determines there is little chance of saving your life.
?I see many families who simply cannot let go and seem to believe there are miracles to be had if everybody prays hard enough. We torture the elderly far too often and it is difficult to watch.
?As for me, an RN who has seen more than my share of dying and palliative care. Here is what I want:
- Especially if I am of an advanced age, I DO NOT WANT TO BE RESUSITATED!
- I DO NOT WANT TO BE PUT ON A BREATHING MACHINE!
- I DO NOT WANT A FEEDING TUBE PLACED!
- I DO WANT ALL THE PALLATIVE CARE I CAN GET!
?Professionally I have seen dozens of people die. There are no last words. Nobody calls for Jesus. Nobody says, ?Forgive me Lord.? Nobody says they see the light. They just stop.
?By the way, I am an atheist and have been all my life. My parents gave me the choice, provided educated answers, but never pushed me in either direction and I realized at a very young age that the god thing is fantasy.?
GodFree, your daughter has presented us with a refreshing slice of reality. It should give us all something to think about.
My mother began hospice care with the understanding she would have little more than 3 months to live.
As each week passed her condition became worse and worse, the care ,more and more intense finaly leading to her internment in an intensive care facility.
Through all this she never feard meeting some supreme being or being rewarded or punished for her attatude to a fairytale
Godfrey,
I’m with cry4turtles. That was a very refreshing slice of reality. Thank you for sharing.
That is exactly the way it happened with me as well.
1. No.
2. Not at all.
If I’m going to die in a hospital, I would like to at least get a drug cocktail of ectasy, pot, laughing gas, and LSD so that I can briefly experience heaven before I go.
Also, I’d donate my body to science so that there’s not a religious funeral afterward.