ELLEN JOHNSON ON HARRIS, “ATHEIST CLEANSING,”MORE THIS WEEK ON ANSWERS-IN-ATHEISM INTERNET RADIOThursday, October 11, 2007 ~ 7:00 PM ET ELLEN JOHNSON, President of American Atheists, will be the guest on this week’s live call-in broadcast from the new answersinatheism.net radio program. Hosted by attorney, Freethought activist and writer Edwin Kagin, answersinatheism.net is a new outreach to counter religious obfuscation, distortion and obscurantism. The show is archived and can be accessed at http://www.answersinatheism.net . Ms. Johnson will be talking about efforts to “cleanse” Atheists and Atheism from public discourse, and a recent proposal by Mr. Sam Harris that we avoid the use of the “A-word” (Atheism), and even terms like Humanist, Freethinker or Rationalist. Harris made this suggestion at a recent Atheist gathering. Check out the exchange of views between Sam Harris and Ellen Johnson at http://humaniststudies.org/enews/ . So, be sure to tune-in this Thursday, October 11, 7:00 PM ET You can call in with your questions and opinions at 859-384-7000. There may be a toll-free number installed by air time, so visit http://www.answersinatheism.net . WHO & WHAT: Ellen Johnson, President of American Atheists discussing “Atheist Cleansing,” the “A-word” and Atheist Activism. WHERE: Answers-in-Atheism internet radio at http://www.answersinatheism.net . WHEN: This Thursday, October 11, 7:00 PM — check your time zone. MORE INFO: http://www.answersinatheism.net American Atheists is a nationwide movement which defends the civil rights of nonbelievers, works for the separation of church and state, and addresses issues of First Amendment public policy.
I think I do fear the absolutism of the decision-given that there is no proof that God exists. I ENJOY my sprituality-its about MY connection with nature, people, and trying to make small differences where I can (helping children etc). I am deeply fascinated by the psychology of human beings, and while I am tolerant of others beliefs, I am not a pacifist. I believe in people’s rights to live their life as they please as long as they are not hurting others.
tolerance,
When you wrote this
,I felt compelled to respond since it is not a reflection of agnosticism (to which you claim to adhere).
The concept that we are all faulted human beings is derived straight from religion.
Of course some deviations/mutations of DNA result in aberrations which may result in “flaws”(mental and physical are possible)but, that’s not the premise behind proclaming humanity as flawed.
We may not all have the same education, or physical strength, etc. – these are not categorically flaws.
Degrading yourself (let alone all of humanity) doesn’t accomplish anything.
It accomplishes relationships-understanding-connectivity. Those are channels by which change can occur. I’m not degrading myself or humanity by asserting that we are flawed- if we were perfectly developed we would know for certain the answers to all things. Are you trying to file my opinions alongside a collective thinking process?
toleranceseeker,
You are not flawed, that would suggest that you were created and something went wrong during the creation. You simply haven’t acquired a perfect education and you don’t have a perfect memory.
I find it interesting that you choose to look for tolerance on an atheist blog instead of a christian blog. The christians are the ones that are attempting to have the United States re-branded as a christian nation. Christians are the ones that are trying to force everyone to recognize their god-idea as valid and not delusional and destructive even when the evidence points to christianity as in fact being delusional and destructive.
Non-christians have tried being polite and kind, as a result the christians have proclaimed that Atheists don’t exist.
Yeah, christians suck and I really have lost my tolerance for them. And why not, they would like to see the destruction of the planet that I love.
tol,
Wish you would elaborate a little. When you use the word “It” in this
,are you referring to self-degradation? WTF? Since that was the only sentence in which I used the word “accomplish”, I can only surmise that’s the case.
If so, I think you may need help.
Every day that I am denied the same equality as other Americans my inner peace and dignity are assaulted. I work very hard through my gay and atheist activism and through living my life openly as a gay atheist to bring about change. When it comes to intolerance of religion I am ruthless and often call people to be held accountable for their irrationality. Change won’t happen just becasue we want it to, we must work hard for it.
I don’t think all Christians are tolerant, which is why I’m on an Atheist blog…I’m learning quickly this is the case here as well…
666-not self-degradation-humility. Admitting that I don’t know everything so therefore I’m OPEN to hearing your point of view. I’m not ashamed to need help if I need it. What’s that about?
toleranceseeker,
That, seem to me, to be a very hollow comment. It gives no reasoning and it provides no answers.
What’s so damn great about tolerance anyway? Should we tolerate crime? homophobia? religious intrusion into our private lives? Please answer why you think we should be tolerant of religion and what it makes otherwise intelligent and compassionate people do?
toleranceseeker,
I’ve never understood this agnostic crap. Do you believe, or don’t you? “I don’t know” or “Maybe.” doesn’t cut it. If you question that the magic guy is up there sprawled on a cloud (or whatever it is can’t decide whether you believe in or not), then you don’t believe! Face it.
And yeah, we get a little carried away here at times, but this is OUR blog. It’s kinda like family where you might talk less politely about somebody not present in a different way than if they were there. Except trolls, of course, if they come spewing their righteous xian belief here they are apt to get stomped on.
And pha.
Wouldn’t you think there are enough churches around that nobody would need to hold a bible study class in a courthouse? There would be ONE courthouse in town and how many churches? My guess is this is just another foot they’re trying to get in the door–and succeeding for the moment.
If “tolerance” means silence, then you can count me OUT! I believe in respecting humans for their inherent value, but that does not mean that I need to “love”, walk on eggshells, or kowtow to any human being’s delusional beliefs.
There’s such a thing as TOO much tolerance, and TOO much tolerance is part of the problem.
So in other words, elitist, holier than thou, annoyingly selective and hypocritical agnostics who take the slightest criticism of religion as “hate spewing” and “intolerant” are part of the problem.
Said agnostics kissing the asses and doing everything in their part to appear tolerant in front of the oh so victimized religionsists, is exactly why “intolerant, hate spewing, fundamentalist” atheist communities like this exist in the first place.
Tolerance
Plain and simple … I have no tolerance for ignorance whether its mine or others. If you insist upon tolerating the religious majority then be aware that it will most likely be to your minority’s peril.
I love you guys. Seriously.
Whoops. Somehow my first sentence was lost which should have read:
“To those that have responded to Tolerance’s post .”
Whoa! What a long road ahead of us!
Believe me-you’ll never find me kissing anyone’s ass. Too much tolerance is OBVIOUSLY not a good thing- I didn’t know I had to get elementary with self professed intellectuals.
I’m off to the open road-I can’t TOLERATE the narrowness and judement of this blog.
Shoot; I had to leave for a while.
I guess toleranceseeker was looking for fuzzy-wuzzies and feel-good bunny clouds. Sorry to tell you TS, but you don’t always get that in reality, which is what atheists deal in. If you can’t handle hard answers to your questions, you probably should go looking elsewhere.
Don’t know where you got the “self-professed intellectuals” bit or the idea that we think we know everything. Fact is, we know that we don’t know everything.
Good luck in your search for tolerance. I think you’ll find it’s spread pretty evenly, and thinly, and consistently across the board. Some folks’ll be more tolerant of one issue over another, but they all have their hot spots.
toleranceseeker,
Bye-bye!
So, people, what’s up with agnostics? My husband labels himself an agnostic, we have many spirited discussions about belief, agnosticism and atheism, and we never resolve anything. He just sticks to his guns that no one can know absolutely for sure about gods or an afterlife, so that calling oneself an atheist is just as ridiculous as being a believer. There is absolutely, positively no religious component at all to his life, and I think that for all intents and purposes he is an atheist. He won’t buy it. Of course, no one can know, absolutely, that there is nothing supernatural out there. If it could be proven, I’d be the first one to sign up. You know that’s never going to happen, and I’ve never been tempted for an instant to call myself an agnostic over something so unreasonable and absurd. Seems to me, you either believe or you don’t believe.
EXACTLY! The idea that Tolerance (with a capital “T”) should triumph over reason is why we have a problem with illeagle immigrants in this country and why we can’t have an honest discussion about race or israel. The dogma of Tolerance is ruining this country and it places “feelings” above truth.
Hasta la vista, baby! and safe journey.
When you decide that maybe we are onto something with our disdain for tolerance of religion then please come back. To be honest, the noncommital attitude of agnostics has always struck me as cowardice so I hope you toughen up and are able to join us in our certainty that god is bunk.
Tarma
My husband claimed agnosticism too, but wouldn’t talk about it. And he labeled me militant for even wanting to discuss it. I’m with you, either you believe or you don’t. That’s what I tried to point out to tolerance when I asked him/her which god(s) s/he believed in.
With my husband, he was more willing to talk about atheism, agnosticism and religion, etc, in the years before his sister became a Methodist minister. Maybe he became soft in deference to her delusional lifestyle.
I know I’m late (perhaps too late) to the party but I gotta.
tolerance,
1.
Don’t know if you’ll see this but please explain how I referred to “humility” in any of my posts. I wrote in regard to this:
and somehow you manage to twist it into humility? Thus the comment about needing help.(reading?)
For that matter, please show me where even YOU referred to “humility” previously.
2.
Explain how calling anyone flawed (defective – look it up)is not degrading. Please.
3. What you wrote here
(bold emphasis mine) denotes that you are, in fact, not agnostic since it indicates you believe in a spirit.
See ya in the funny papers!
As you might imagine, this issue of tolerance is one that resonates with me. Regardless of religious belief, I think it’s safe to say that we are all flawed. At times, I lack confidence, I drink too much, I curse too much, I make mistakes, I say the wrong thing. This can be said of all of us in one regard or another. None of us are perfect. We have flaws.
666, if you read Spong, he is essentially an atheist who finds spirituality in community. His definition varies from yours, but spirituality has been expressed by those who do not believe there is a god.
Alex
The reason illegal immigrants are in this country has more to do with market forces than a tolerant boogie man. If the market did not demand cheap labor, the supply would not be here. Your discussions with KA about Israel illustrates that two atheists who are fed up with religious dogma can believe that reason is on their side and be convicted that their position is the most reasonable. I would be careful about declaring that you have ownership over truth, as should I. That recognition leads me to be tolerant to listening to ideas that are different than mine.
Tarma
I read this as a you’re either with us or against us type of statement… love it or leave it. There’s no middle ground. Can a person not question? Is there no supporting someone who is trying to work out difficult ideas? It concerns me that the diatribes I hear on talk shows is people shouting you must agree with me! There is no in between! This is not healthy. I’ve read a few books from cognitive scientists, which fascinates me no end. The conclusion I’m drawing is that the way people think is not logical, but able to hold conflicting ideas without complete resolution. It’s part of what makes us human regardless of religious belief or lack thereof.
AthLibrarian
You are making a strawman out of tolerance. Tolerance certainly does not mean staying silent. Tolerance (and the end result of acceptance) of homosexuals is what leads many people (including straight religious people) to fight for the right of gay marriage. Tolerance of religious ideas and atheists is what allows this nation to enjoy a plethura of different ideas without exploding into violence. We only need look at militant religious regimes or even periods in history, including the French revolution (check out “The Great Upheaval”) to understand that intolerance from any facet is unhealthy to say the least.
Karen
If you were to show him this thread, do you think it would reinforce militancy or would it convince him that he should feel free to discuss it with you without fear of judgement. I deeply enjoy and appreciate you. I don’t want to sound harsh, but honestly, have him read this thread if you think it’s not a militant thread.
RNA
Has my time here not convinced any of you that this is simply not true? I have heard the argument that liberal christians are simply candy coated versions of the other christians who are militant and intolerant. This is not true. Would you argue I am a candy coated version of phreedm?
I suspect I will get quite a bit of backlash from this, but I will not back down from thinking that tolerance is a good thing. I have come to appreciate and enjoy discussions with all of you, which is why the backlash will be disconcerting to me. I have tried to let myself be more open here than I am typically in real life and that opens me up to wounding more easily. I could be called a pusssy for caring, but I think being honest about something I believe in, honest about how I feel about taking chances and people’s reactions doesn’t necessarily make me a bleeding heart. It makes me honest. I can live with that. I can’t live with being silent about tolerance.
Eleanor Holmes Norton
In rereading this, I think the first question that may be asked is should we be tolerant of the nazis, religious fundamentalists and so on. First, we are to be tolerant of people, not actions. I believe that we need to tolerate free speech no matter how much we disagree. We need not tolerate murder, theft, injustice. We are to tolerate inquiries, questions and different ideas. Tolerance does not equal inaction, it does not equal complacency and it does not equal backing down.
Have you ever thought that posting here makes you think more about what you believe? In rereading this
I think I misspoke. Tolerance can lead to acceptance, but not always. In this example, I use leading to acceptance as a way to show that tolerance can lead to good things. It can also be a slippery sloap, which I think is the point many of you are making. I do not think that tolerance should be dismissed because of this slippery sloap potential. Tolerance is very important and therefore merits a great degree of thought, but not dismissal.
sloap = slope
Spanders
How much ignorance should be tolerated and what should we do when it is worn like a badge?
A badge of honor.
spanders,
I have no problem with someone questioning or working out ideas; indeed, I would strongly encourage it. However, to me there are only two positions available to an self-styled agnostic questioning the god idea: either you believe and are questioning your belief, or you don’t believe and are questioning your lack of belief. Being stuck in agnostic limbo for decades because you “can’t know” makes no sense to me and doesn’t really have anything to do with questioning or working out ideas.
I’m just going mostly by my personal experience here. My spouse decided he was agnostic decades ago after studying philosophy and comparative religions. It’s not like he’s been agonizing over the decision all this time. I just don’t understand the agnostic mentality at all, and he’s never been able to convince me that it has any merit – and believe me, he’s tried!
What, I’d like you to help me think this out. What should we do if we don’t tolerate ignorance? What is the course of action for intolerance?
Tarma
There are other positions as well. I for instance take the position that the question “Are there gawds?” to be invalid. One need not take a position on an invalid question. I consider myself closer to the atheist perspective than any other label in use but I would and do entertain other such labels.