Every once in a while I have to piss a lot of people off. In my opinion, if you don’t piss off a lot of people every once in a while, well, you’re not voicing your opinion.I’m going farther than Ellen and others in the debate over using the word “Atheist”. My opinion is that if you DON’T use the word Atheist, you’re hurting the movement. I’m saying that even using the alternative words (Brights, secular humanist, realist, or even agnostic)HURTS the movement by allowing people to retain their prejudice against us. It also shows a weakness of conviction on our part, so even IF (big if) people actually know what the alternate word means, they don’t think you’re gutsy enough to admit your real thoughts. They may be right.Sam Harris is a brilliant thinker and writer, but I think of the few people who left the AAI convention swayed by his “don’t use Atheist” speech, and I’m saddened because I think “there go more people who won’t say what they mean, who won’t put a face to the word, who won’t help stamp out bigotry to the absolute best of their ability”.Sam is really wrong, and it really bothers me. My opinion is that EVERYONE should use Atheist. No Brights. No Agnostics (YES, THEY ARE THE SAME). No Secular Humanists. Only Atheists. You are what you are — if someone has a problem with that, well, it’s THEIR problem. What would the country be like if we all just spoke our minds?
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Hmm, I’ve always said I was an agnostic, because I don’t think we can disprove God and I tend to follow a bit of Tillich thoughts. What he calls God I call nature. So maybe I have to think this through some more.
I feel very strongly that we must fight bigotry and I wonder if I’ve been being weak about this because I found the words Agnostic and Humanist so comfortable.
That is of course what is so great about conferences and blogs, is the chance to have your ideas challenged and the chance to think more about how you approach the world.
Thanks for all your work here
Perhaps “Non-Theist” sounds too agnostic and non-comittal. I really am an atheist in the sense that I know there is no sky god or magic just as much as I know that 1 + 1 = 2. If my senses betray me at this level, then boy what a topsy turvy world we live in! An agnostic (aka ‘Non-Mathematist’) would leave the door open for 1 + 1 to equal 3, but to me that’s a lot of my life bandwidth spent on being wishy washy on what is otherwise pretty solid stuff.
Dave
I agree with you completely. And I see direct parallels with the experience of gay people.
In both cases we are talking about hated minorities, and in both cases the hatred is justified by ancient fairy tales with no basis whatsoever in fact.
Keep up the good work, we are winning you know.
I’m tired of people thinking that atheism is a claim that there is no god; that somehow we are asserting it doesn’t exist. That is not true. Although we may, it’s not entailed within atheism’s meaning.
If you are without belief in a god, you’re an atheist. You could still be an agnostic, but you must still be either theist or atheist.
People need to wake up and stop being ignorant on this.
hooray Dave! I agree with you. When it comes up (and it does sometimes), I make no bones about being an atheist. If someone doesn’t like that or me because of that, they are welcome to remove themselves from my vicinity.
(the bright label, to me, is repulsive)
So Dave…why are you trying to silence those who’s opinions are different from your own…?
By your own statement, when they piss you off and stand up for who they are, and you complain about them..it’s really your problem…not theirs…
How is voicing your opinion equated with silencing someone else’s?
Pretzel logic.
I also agree with Dave on this. I’ve been “out” as an atheist for less than a year, and I find that every time I say, “I’m an atheist” it makes me feel personally strong and it helps fight prejudice.
Someone who knows (and presumably doesn’t dislike) me, and who has a negative impression of atheists, is faced with an internal contradiction when I declare plainly, “I’m an atheist.” An atheist is someone who doesn’t believe in god(s) – end of story. Declare it if it’s true, and let other people associate that lack of belief with the person they already know you are.
Dina
You are dead on. I can’t tell you how many people I’ve met who are shocked, SHOCKED to actually meet an atheist, let alone an atheist they actually like.
I understand where Harris is misguided, though. IMHO, he’s trying to re-brand atheism into something more palatable. Sorry. No matter what we do, we will not be accepted by all people. Why re-brand ourselves in order to sway people who will never accept us. We need to make the word atheist something people on the fence more comfortable to use. That happens when more people are out.
Why does everything always have to be so binary? Let people define themselves however they like, or you are no better than the intolerant bigots you despise.
phreedm,
Everyone can have their own opinion, there’s really no way to stop people from doing that. For me the problem is no so much that they’re spouting off their opinion, I could really care less about what they think and they could care less about what mine is.
What incenses me is when they decide that their opinion is fact and that they are going to do their best to get it crammed down my throat because they’ve assured themselves that not only is it their opinion but it is also “fact.” So, as long as they don’t infringe upon my rights, I won’t infringe upon theirs. But seeing as how the religious seem to think that its their duty to “save” the country from us “godless heathens” by instituting prayers in school, destroying the quality of science education, and doing their best to establish theirs as the dominant religion, I (and others) will continue to “silence” their opinion right along with Dave.
You are absolutely right Dave!
I’m an atheist and proud of it!
Like I’ve said many times before, atheists can learn a lot from us gays. Staying in the closet meant that for a long time gays were invisible and not given equality but once we decided to come out of the closet in large numbers and demand our rights we got them, or at least are in the process of getting them. Atheists need to stand up and proclaim their embrace of reason over superstition if we ever want things to change because by staying silent and ashamed of atheism we will get nowhere.
Alex
Absolutely, sitting in silence has pretty never helped any cause that i can think of. the more verbal we are the better, and the prouder we wear our badge of atheism the better.
I agree with everyone else when that say that simply changing our name, or doing away with it all together, will doing nothing to solve the underlying problem that theists have with us. Someone made the reference to the rose still smelling that same regardless of what we call it, and i think thats spot on.
There are many undecided minds out there, and I’m proud to help debunk the bias against us using the term atheist!
phreedm, you’re an idiot. You wouldn’t know logic if it came, beat you upside the head, and banged you all night long.
It seems that alot of this discussion has been about how different words or labels are defined. I’d like to offer a bit of objective information.
The OED (Oxford English Dictionary) defines ?atheist (noun)? as 1) ?one who denies or disbelieves the existence of a God.? And 2) ?one who practically denies the existence of a God by disregard of moral obligation to Him; a godless man.
On the other hand, the OED defines ?agnostic (noun)? as ?one who holds that the existence of anything beyond and behind material phenomena is unknown and (so far as can be judged) unknowable, and especially that a First Cause and an unseen world are subjects of which we know nothing.?
I will refrain from offering the OED definitions of the remaining plethora of terms, which have been discussed on this blog, in an attempt to avoid boredom, not for lack of thoroughness.
On another note, hasn’t anyone realized that Sam Harris is a practitioner of Theravada Buddhism (they don’t believe in a personal god). I think that it is WAY past time we removed him from the Atheist Pantheon.
Personally, I would prefer to say “non-religious” because it rules out other nonsense like reincarnation or “materialist” because it rules out all things supernatural. When asked about it, however, I use “atheist” for the exact reasons that Dave describes above.
I don’t even see why we need the word “atheist”. Non-belief is the default position, so it shouldn’t require a special word. I forget which comedian said it, but one of my favorite quotes on the subject is something like “Having a word which means ‘doesn’t believe in god’ is like having a word which means ‘not retarded’”.
JustinW
That’s a great quote! LOL!
Too bad it’s a bit long for a bumper sticker.
Just replace “atheist” with “homosexual”, and you can see how fast Harris’ argument evaporates.
Imagine, I’m gay and I follow Harris’ advice: I retreat into the shadows, refuse to publicly acknowledge my true identity, and simply act like a “normal” human being. Yes, I’m kind, polite, generous, rational, but never, oh never, can anyone know I’m a “homo”. That’d only harm my cause to be accepted fully into society.
I suspect the erudite academic Harris does not understand what it means to be a non-academic; I’m just an average joe with less than a complete college education, but I am an atheist with conviction. I think Harris has quite a bit of trouble identifying with a person like me.
Although I more fully identify myself as a Humanist because this tag carries with it a comprehensive positive worldview and I can explain it when asked, nevertheless I’m an atheist through and through, proud of it, and not ashamed to say it, and I don’t believe for one minute that being one hundred percent open about it does anything detrimental to the concerns of atheists. I believe quite to the contrary, in fact.
I think atheist is probably as good as any name. I like the word ‘reason’ but even if we came up with ‘reasonist’ or some such thing we’d practically have to start from scratch in educating the rest of the world. They may not like us, may fear us or whatever, but at least the know the meaning of the word. (Well, actually there are probably a lot of them who don’t, but oh well.)
So I think we need to hang on to ‘atheist’ but we need some good PR–in other words: Advertising!
I get so ticked off here in good old Tennessee when I can’t even turn on CNN without a church advertising on that station. Why don’t we run our own commercials? What if we profiled Joe Atheist with a hammer in his hand pounding nails for Habitat for Humanity one day, and the next day we profiled Jane Atheist cleaning pens at the animal shelter, and on and on. The world really doesn’t know us and if they were our commercials, bought and paid for by us, we could show atheists in a positive light. It wouldn’t hurt, too, if we could stress the benefits of separation of church and state.
I’d send in a monthly check for something like this. Am I alone? How about it, Dave, has this idea ever been considered?
I like to tell people that I am not afflicted with religious beliefs.
I certainly am an atheist, a strong atheist if you will. Obviously it is absurd to claim that one can or would even wish to prove that any particular Imaginary Bearded Sky Daddy does not exist. To do so would be the ultimate waste of time.
It is much more fun to viciously ridicule religion and those who exploit the poor victims of religious afflictions.
So I spend $234 a month to rent a dedicated webserver that hosts many websites designed to ridicule and cast scorn upon religious delusions. I actually retired early to spend all my time doing so. Not all of my 70 websites ridicule religion, but a fair number do. It has become my raison d’etre.
I also provide free web hosting to other organizations and folks of a similar mindset, a few well known sites share the server with my very obscure ones.
Y’all are welcome too, stop by at steveswebhosting.com for a top-level view of my anti-Jeebus efforts.
Dave, you are right. But I really don’t like the word. When I first heard it, but didn’t realize I was going to be atheist, I didn’t like it. Maybe it’s the sound. There is also the A which is a negative connotation. I would prefer a positive connotation. One reason I don’t go around saying it, is because I don’t want to wear anything like that on my sleeve (a tattoo is much better) However if you throw it after a really negative word like Born Again. It sounds much better. Born Again Atheist. I love it. I do prefer the word non-theist personally, but I had a woman come in my house the other day and said she was an atheist right off the bat. I was wowed, especially in Va.
Even though I hardly find anything in common with her, i deeply admired her ability to say that. Part of the stigmatism with Atheism, actually comes from the history of American Atheists, much like the legacy of christians comes from christians before them. Note that I do not like to use the word christian nor christ. Christ means the son of the consolidated god, which is illogical and claimed by many but not he. I also don’t like to use the J word. When I do, Jesus of Nazareth works just fine for me.I currently usually slip science in my converstations as much as possible and that I support 99.9% of contemporary science. I’m still up in the air with some scientific theories.
In all this, one does have to stick up for who they really are, and every little bit helps.
Aren’t we also overlooking the fact that if we’re atheists, then we are also likely aSuperNaturalists and that atheism is just a subgroup(subspecies) of that? I think the true fact is that we are realists, who believe in what is real and can be proven by scientific method.
Many atheists come around because of their higher education while others are just really ‘bright’.
So, while, I am a realist and an aSuperNaturalist, and I’ve fooled some people into thinking I’m bright, that concludes that I am also an Atheist, by definition, but that this is under the hierarchy of what I really am, someone who doesn’t easily believe BS, unless it is validly proven. Whatever we do/decide, let’s keep together, no matter what our differences. As well, the entire human race should be together.
Labels are a funny thing…
I once kicked a WASPy boyfriend to the curb with the back end of my spiked heels because he had the nerve to introduce me to his parents as “Spanish”. Spanish from Spain? Spanish because I speak Spanish? He could have said, “She is Mexican.” Or, “She was born in Mexico.” Or, “She is Mexican of German descent with some Zapotec blood and family lore has it that in 1785 a direct descendent may have mated with a Norwegian fisherman which would explain her aversion to cod.”
Moral of the story: if atheism bothers sensitivities, so be it. Kicking idiot boyfriends along with pointless “palatable” labels to the curb feels goddamn good and oh-so liberating.
Comment from: 666
Comment from: RiftPoint
For those who have eyes but can’t see…
UG…thanks for making my point…
Comment from: UnGodly
With all of lifes riches and all of the needs in the world…and this is what you do with your spare time and spare money…
What a sad commentary on someone’s life…
PS…those who lack the backbone to stand up for themselves are welcome to borrow the business end of my spiked heels.
i think the problem is not so much the label “atheist” as the message we project at times. admittedly i enjoy making fun of fools like phreedm on this blog (by the way i find it incredible that he visits so often and spouts such nonsense without being paid to do it).
however, when i discuss my lack of belief in a god with xtian friends and family, i try and disarm them with my reasoning of why i don’t believe rather than why they are stupid for believing.
for example, when hit with how can you live without faith…my response is that i DO have faith,i.e., faith in my fellow man, i.e., faith in you. then i point out that if i need an operation i go to the doctor not to a church. my faith is in the human doctor not some imaginary being that some think is guiding his hands. if i need my car fixed, i go to my mechanic, not to a church. etc. in other words, i rely on my fellow man to to aid me through life.
when they ask how i can be moral without religion, i respond that it is more noble IMO to treat people with dignity and respect because it is the right thing to do because you care about THEM. contrary to the xtian position that an invisible entity will be upset with you, and judge you, if you don’t treat someone right. i want to be judged by my peers that i can look in the eye, touch, etc.
i’ve never had a heated argument with a xtian about any of this and most of the time the believers quickly run out of stock comebacks and listen to what i have to say.
of course, i pick and chose who i will discuss such things with. for example, i wouldn’t attempt to discuss such things face to face with the likes of phreedm or jcc or imforgvn as they display (on this blog anyway)an obvious lack of capacity to reason and just want to argue the same ol sh*t over and over. on the other hand, i would welcome a face to face discussion with spanders.
talked too much…ciao
You know… i’ve been keeping an eye on this blog for a while now, but usually keep to myself, so i’ve seen all the “i know you are, but what am i” style arguments from phreedum (hah, i typed that without even thinking about it) but he amazes me every time i see his posts on this blog.
Wow… I didn’t piss anyone off! Just some civilized disagreement, but nobody’s really pissed!
I love you guys. Rock on!
Suck it, phreedm.
Justin, “atheist” is not a “special word”. The prefix a- means without. Then just do the math.
Phreedm, why do you come on here, posting the same bullshit, time and time again?
Haven’t you learned by now that your god is bullshit, and is just an unjustified belief that you harbor?
Don’t you think you should care more about knowledge instead of beliefs?
Get with the times, man.
I’m rather in favor of:
MF’er atheist with attitude.
Agnostic is NOT always the same. different agnostics define themselves in different ways. that’s up to THEM, NOT YOU. Stop telling people what they can and can’t call themselves-the very thing you get mad at religions for.
Sam is a bright guy, and he happens to be wrong on this. It doesn’t bother me at all to say that. I don’t elevate him to some superhuman status, and I don’t consider him infallible. He’s going to make mistakes like the rest of us, and this happens to be one.
Once again the pissant displays his ignorance and lack of comprehension.
Religionistas seek to shove their opinions on others constantly – many of them even go so far as to bang on peoples doors uninvited to spread their bullshit.
(Here’s one more example of SPECIAL TREATMENT FOR RELIGION:
Many communities that will prosecute solicitors [when properties are identified through signs which state "No Soliciting"], refuse to prosecute religious solicitors since “they’re doing the lord’s work”.)
When have you seen atheists do that?
Where is the word “atheist” on our money?
Where does that same word appear in the pledge of allegiance?
Religionistas are not content with merely stating an “opinion”, they seek to force it upon one and all. They have demonstrated time and again their willingness to use force, terror, and torture to inflict their will on others – denying them the security to voice their opinions.
In effect, doing their best to silence or obscure other opinions.
GodFree&Glad,
Check this out:
http://atheistrevolution.blogspot.com/2007/10/first-nontheistic-billboard.html
A sign of things to come? (The pun wasn’t intended but I’ll take it!)
After attending the 1986 Convention as an interested, curious observer, I walked out of there saying “Lance this is what you are. You are an Atheist.” I also recognized the value of capitalizing the word after reading Madalyn’s writings. After 21 years of being a member of American Atheists, I see absolutely no reason whatsoever to abandon the word Atheist to describe myself. If Sam Harris has a problem with it, that’s HIS problem, not mine. I’ll live the rest of my life as a Atheist, and I’ll die as an Atheist.
As Dave is a fan of Camp Quest, he might be interested in this program from Canada’s CBC on atheism. In part of the program they interview people at Camp Quest.
This is from the science blog site “Sandwalk” also in Canada.
http://sandwalk.blogspot.com/2007/10/atheists-spreading-word.html
Considering that those words all have different meanings on their own and even more different meanings when used by different people who define them differently, I think it’s rather ignorant and inconsiderate to say “Just call yourself an atheist because that’s what you are.” Well, did you think that maybe a secular humanist is just that: a secular humanist? Or that an agnostic is actually an agnostic? This whole mentality of you’re either labeled the same as us or you’re against us is completely idiotic.
I define myself as an atheist, but also as a humanist. I consider the two to be mutually exclusive of one another and so I use both. If asked what religion I am, I say none, I’m atheist. If asked what I have faith in, I say I’m a humanist, I put my faith in society in hopes that we can learn and grow and eventually do the right thing, even if it takes centuries of blowing each other’s brains out first. This all relies on my personal definitions of atheism and humanism.
The analogy being used here between calling yourself atheist or humanist or agnostic or what have you and declaring yourself homosexual is rather flawed. Don’t forget that there are also those people who define as bisexual, and a lot of bisexuals are attacked by the gay community as being “fence-sitters” or trying to fit in with society when in actuality, they ARE attracted to both men and women. You’re doing the same thing here with the labeling of atheist, agnostic, bright, humanist, etc. You assume that anyone not defining as atheist is merely a fence-sitter, when it just might be that what they truly believe is in line with agnosticism or humanism but not necessarily atheism.
EAC,
This is from the American Humanist Association:
“Humanism is a progressive philosophy of life that, without theism and other supernatural beliefs, affirms our ability and responsibility to lead ethical lives of personal fulfillment that aspire to the greater good of humanity.”
(emphasis mine
Seems to me that incorporates atheism.
Set: Atheism
Subset: Humanism
No?
666,
And if you notice, I said that I was using my personal definition of humanism (a faith in society and humanity to improve and actively work for the good of society and humanity, without using the belief of a god or gods). Hence, when asked my religion: atheist. When asked what I have faith in: humanity, based on my humanist beliefs.
EAC,
I just found it odd that you identify yourself as an atheist in your screen name instead of “evil Humanist conqueror”.
I think that this is what Dawkins was referring to when he spoke/wrote in regards to coming out of the (atheist) closet.
If people don’t see/hear us, they will be unaware of how many there are and continue to marginalize atheists.
666 was correct in describing humanism as a subset of atheism. Based on the first part of the stated description of humanism (without theism and other supernatural beliefs), all humanists are atheists. But the second part of that sentence which affirms our responsibility to lead ethical lives for the greater good of humanity would exclude some atheists from being described as humanists.
But it is misleading for humanists to deny that we are atheists.
Rather than avoid the use of a term that accurately describes us, why don’t we try to change the public perception of that word by “coming out” and showing others that atheists can be really good people. They can’t say, “Some of my best friends are atheists” unless they know who we are.
I agree completely, we need to continue to describe ourselves at atheists. I think we should go one step further and squash “i don’t know” (or “agnostic”) as an answer to the question “Do you believe in god(s)?” You can’t not know if you have a belief, you either have it or you don’t ! I’m sick of the wimps who are to afraid to say “NO”.
chicago, maybe the “a” in “atheist” is too weird for the public not understanding greek roots.
We could perhaps say “no theist” or “non-theist” to make it easier for them.
“What would the country be like…”
There would be a lot of speaking and not a lot of doing.
How ironic that Dave’s “opinion is that if you DON’T use the word Atheist, you’re hurting the movement.”, yet he does far more harm and damage to the movement by preaching Judaism, identifying himself with a faith-based identity (as a jew), attacking secularists & atheists who criticize Judaism and treat his religion like any other, and consistently aligning himself with zionist (jewish extremists)groups, such as the ADL.
Sam Harris has a point in stating that “that ‘atheist’ is a term that we do not need, in the same way that we don’t need a word for someone who rejects astrology. We simply do not call people ‘non-astrologers.’All we need are words like ‘reason’ and ‘evidence’ and ‘common sense’ and ‘bullshit’ to put astrologers in their place, and so it could be with religion.”
Is the movement dependent upon an identity to state what we are not (theists)and in response/reaction to religion or should we let our identity be based on living our lives based on reason and truth and allow the “movement” of reason treat and label religion as mythology?
Or is our society and “movement” not ready to take such a bold step?